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American Speaks Out from North Korea; 2 NYPD Officers Attacked During Protests; New Ferguson Documents Show Some Witnesses Lied; The Inequality Gap in America; Sony Reeling from Damaging Hack
Aired December 14, 2014 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.
This story now, U.S. embassies overseas have been looking for an American citizen. This weekend, he turned up in North Korea.
Our Will Ripley is following this story live from Tokyo for us.
This is a 29-year-old and everyone's asking, how did he get from the United States into North Korea?
WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Arturo Martinez (INAUDIBLE)
So, he got out, got a payday loan, then went to Beijing, China, and crossed into North Korea sometime in November. He was there just a couple of days after the American director of national intelligence, James Clapper, retrieved --
(AUDIO GAP)
HARLOW: All right. We're having technical problems hearing Will Ripley. We're going to bring him back in the next hour as soon as we fix them.
It really is an extraordinary story. This 29-year-old from El Paso, Texas, who was in a psychiatric hospital in California, was released. He took out a payday loan. His mother says. Flew to China, and then crossed over into North Korea. He's in North Korea right now.
You are looking at a picture of him, right now. His name, Arturo Pierre Martinez. And he has been making a statement. He held this press conference that you're looking at on television in North Korea condemning the actions of the United States. And his mother says that he has been pardoned by North Korea.
What is unknown right now is his legal status, how long will he be in North Korea? Will they be sending him home? Does he want to stay there? We do know the U.S. state department right now says they are aware of this and they stand ready to provide all assistance possible.
All right. Coming up next, the largest protests in New York City since Eric Garner's death were marred last night by a violent attack on two police officers. At times, crowds of demonstrators stretched for a mile yesterday -- young and old, people of all races marching together. Thousands, almost all of them were very peaceful.
But then trouble broke out on the Brooklyn Bridge where two officers were knocked down, they were beaten.
Our Alexandra Fields has the details.
This is very disturbing, because Alex, when you were out there covering this all day yesterday, we were remarking at how peaceful everything was.
ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, let's keep it in perspective. It's so amazing. You see the video with tens of thousands of people. In that crowd, one person was arrested for disorderly conduct. But what we saw happen is another group of protesters sort of splinter off, separate from that larger march. They are the ones who went to the Brooklyn Bridge. We saw things get violent for really the first time all day long.
What we understand from the NYPD is that two officers were trying to stop a man who they say was throwing a garbage can into the road there. They say that this man then turned around and attacked the officers. They've arrested a 29-year-old, Eric Linsker, charged him with assault, robbery and a couple other things. They say that he was part of the group kicking the police officers, forcing them to the ground, trying to steal their radios and even their jackets.
They did arrest him overnight. They say that they also found a bag out there on the bridge that had three hammers in it as well as a black mask. They believe that belongs to Eric Linsker.
We're learning more about Linsker today. We heard from Baruch College that he does teach one course at the college. They have also said that they are still looking into the facts of this, but they are totally prepared to participate in this investigation in whatever way that they can be helpful.
So, more to learn from this college at this point, Poppy.
HARLOW: What about those officers? I know they had to go to the hospital. How are they doing?
FIELD: We're being told that they're fine. They were released. They were treated.
You know, it was pretty remarkable, Poppy, to see all the police officers out there all day long yesterday. They've been in the situations with the protesters here in New York City for more than a week now, and we can't underscore the point enough that while people have been protesting what they call police violence and calling for reforms in the way community and police interact, that this has been so peaceful, these two groups have been able to sort of work together to facilitate these protests.
So, to see something like this, very unfortunate, but very uncharacteristic of what we saw for so much of the day.
HARLOW: Yes. I'm glad the officers are going to be OK, at least. Yes, really disturbing.
All right. Alex, thanks. Appreciate it.
Let's turn now to Ferguson, Missouri. A lot of new documents coming out from witnesses claiming they saw Officer Darren Wilson shoot Michael Brown. The prosecution releasing these documents of this testimony like they vowed to release, all of the grand jury testimony, all of the evidence heard after the decision was made not to indict Officer Wilson last month.
Today, we got hundreds more documents. They were released to the public. Let's talk about the documents, what stands out most.
HLN legal analyst and defense attorney, Joey Jackson.
Thanks for coming in.
JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Good to see you, Poppy, always.
HARLOW: Good to be with you.
What was your highlight? What stood out in the documents?
JACKSON: The mass confusion. When I say that, I say this. Whenever you see this type of case, I've never been involved in a case where there's not conflict. You have a number of witnesses. Those witnesses say different things.
Of course, we know Dorian Johnson was with Michael Brown at the time he got shot. The statement appears to be consistent. That is what, we told the FBI appears to be consistent with what he said to the grand jury and it's interesting because you can look at different witnesses and you can say one of two things, either, (a), they're fabricating, or either, (b), they're being truthful and that's their perception of events.
So, for example, when Dorian Johnson says, I believe that Michael Brown got shot in the back, he says that when they press him, Poppy, based upon the actions of Michael Brown. Like what? Like Michael Brown spinning around.
HARLOW: But not all witnesses from what these documents show us, on either side, were completely honest at all. That's what this is showing us. Both sides had people who lied.
JACKSON: Right. And, you know, what's interesting, because -- I don't know if that's that they lied or if it's that their perceptions were such that --
HARLOW: OK, important point.
JACKSON: Right. That their perceptions were such, so, for example, with Dorian Johnson, he didn't say he saw the bullet go in. He said he turned around. So, he presumed that he was shot. Then, of course, you could presume that different witnesses see things at different times and based upon that, they give testimony about it. HARLOW: There's even this one part where the -- when they were sort
of being cross examined, if you will, right, in this grand jury proceeding, the prosecutor asked, the only thing true about all your statements before this, is that you saw a police officer shoot him at pointblank range? They said, yes.
So, all of these details they've given, then they later say to the grand jury, I actually don't know any of those, I just know he was shot.
JACKSON: That's what happens. Whenever you press, whenever there's cross-examination, stories come out differently.
You know, it's an interesting part of the criminal justice process where you have witnesses who say different things and then you have the same witness who even says different things at different times.
HARLOW: Right.
JACKSON: So, it's really difficult to discern exactly what happened and that's why you rely a lot on physical evidence.
HARLOW: What do you do about -- sure, physical evidence, autopsy, what was at the scene, blood stains, important. What do you do with a witness like this, witness 22 these documents say, say, "I just felt like I wanted to be part of something." Goes on to say, "I didn't see what I told the FBI what I saw."
Why would they -- why would the prosecutors choose to present the grand jury with someone that they had questions about their credibility?
JACKSON: That's a very good question, because what you want to do, whenever you do a grand jury presentation is to put an evidence you believe to be credible. We don't really know, right? We can't make judgments precisely. But when you have people clearly fabricating and clearly say, look, I'm here because I want to be part of something bigger, that's not the ideal witness to be putting in.
HARLOW: Do you think this prosecutor in particular Robert McCulloch, was under such a lens, such a close lens that he didn't want to be blamed by anyone for not presenting all the evidence out there?
JACKSON: Well, no, because we know now based upon the release of those documents that there were witnesses who testified who gave information to the FBI who were not called before the grand jury.
HARLOW: OK.
JACKSON: So the grand jury didn't hear every single witness, and that's why, I believe, that the process, right, people are really talking about the process and how it needs to be fixed with regard to having a special and independent person, so that there's no question.
HARLOW: So, Jeff Toobin, our CNN legal analyst, said, it's problematic for him that so many witnesses testified in front of the grand jury, leading to, arguably, confusion and, therefore, it's just not the way he thought it should be done.
Do you agree with that?
JACKSON: Well, there's a variety of ways to do it. What I agree with is the fact you need a special prosecutor to present evidence and information, and I'm not attacking Mr. McCulloch, but what I'm saying is if you want people to have faith in a process, then you do a process where the prosecutor is not relying upon the local authorities for cases that are before their office, and not relying upon those police. And so, I think it has the appearance of no impropriety.
That's the first step. Then I think whatever decision that grand jury renders, Poppy, will be respected by all, because there's no collusion or the reality or perception of any collusion. In terms of how they present it, there's always going to be conflict, there's always going to be in any presentation one witness who sees, hey, hands are up, another witness, the hands were down.
HARLOW: Right.
JACKSON: One witness, he's shot in the back. I didn't see that, he got shot in the front and he charged.
There's going to be inconsistencies. But I think based upon the volume of information that was presented to this grand jury, the manner in which it unfolded before this grand jury, was unlike anything you ever see.
And the final point to that, Poppy, is this -- usually when there's a presentation that's done, you give that grand jury just enough evidence to get an indictment. In this case, the grand jury was given all types of evidence and how they processed it, we saw what they did it.
HARLOW: And chose not to indict. All right. Appreciate it, Joey. Good to be with you.
JACKSON: Always, pleasure and privilege.
HARLOW: Protests around the country, marching for equality.
Coming up, we're going to talk about what quality looks like, specifically when you look at income inequality in this country. A really shocking look at how big the gap is.
Also this, an African-American teenager is found hanging from a swing set. His death is ruled a suicide, but his family insists it is something much more sinister.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are too many questions, and it very well could be a lynching or stage lynching. We don't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: Well, the protests in Ferguson, Missouri, evoked images from the civil rights era, appeals for rights, protection, equal justice, and now the movement is spreading. We're seeing these marches in New York, in Berkeley, California, in Washington, D.C. People saying, we want an end to inequality on all fronts.
So, how big are the gaps in equality in the United States? There was this eye-opening Pew Research report that I want to tell you about. It just came out, and it shows how significant it is when you talk about wealth in the country. The median wealth for whites is 13 times greater than for African-Americans.
Let me bring in our two guests, Dr. Sampson Davis and Terence Moore also joining me from Atlanta.
Thank you for being with me, both of you.
This report is very shocking. What it states is median wealth for households in the U.S. is $81,000. For white Americans, it's $142,000. For black Americans, it's $11,000. For Hispanics, it is $14,000.
Dr. Davis, to you. Your reaction to this? And they go through a number of things. Everything from inheritance, to education, to opportunity in terms of employment.
DR. SAMPSON DAVIS, AUTHOR, "LIVING AND DYING IN THE BRICK CITY": The numbers are shocking. I mean, that's a huge disparity.
HARLOW: Huge.
DAVIS: Huge. And it's -- you know, it's a number that I personally experienced growing up in struggling situations as well.
HARLOW: In Newark.
DAVIS: In Newark, New Jersey. And I know the difficulties in trying to raise a family on below average income. And it's tough.
It's difficult, especially for the youth of tomorrow who have aspirations to become something great, when they don't have the financial resources that they can turn to, to support their dreams and ambitions to become something in life.
HARLOW: You're now a medical doctor. Quickly tell our viewers the story of how you and your buddies made this pact when you were young to achieve this, and you've all done it together.
DAVIS: Yes, my life-saving pact I made with two of my best friends, we promised to go to college, in medical school, and become doctors. And coming from Newark, New Jersey, a tough inner city where a lot of grit and struggle, to focus on education was something that wasn't popular. But we bonded together in this brotherhood if you will, and went off to school, and went off to medical schools and became doctors. So, we pay it forward by inspiring other kids out there across the
country to really pursue their dreams and know that academics is the way to get there.
HARLOW: Yes. And to you, Terence Moore, I mean, you mentor young black men, and, you know, we talk about justice, opportunity has a lot to do with justice. What are your opportunities in life? Your opportunities to move up the ladder.
And we know for many people right now, it's getting harder and harder to do that. That's what the numbers bear out.
What needs to be done?
TERENCE MOORE, CNN.COM CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, first of all, there's got to be an understanding that there's a problem. And when you've got a gap that is 13 times greater for whites than blacks when it comes to overall wealth, that's a tremendous problem. And it's a problem in the sense that the people who have all the money cannot understand why the people who don't have that sort of wealth have the problems that they do. And that's why I think that these protests are great because they are educating people to let them know that there is a problem.
And one of the things that I want to point out, too, Poppy, is in regards to these protests, OK, to answer your question is, they are producing results. You look at what's going on with the White House right now. They've got this panel now on policing, where they're keeping track of the number of people who are killed in police custody. You've got the Senate passing this legislation to try to have different states report federally what's taking place along these regards. You've got police brutality where you've got different municipalities trying to get police more educated on that.
All this type of things are going toward answering that question, to help people understand that there is a problem when it comes to black youth that is indigenous to them more so than any other group.
HARLOW: I'm going to ask you both the same question. I'll start with you, Doctor, then come to you, Terence. The turning point for you, what was said? Because you said you know how it was to struggle growing up with not enough money, and now, look at what you've done. What was the turning point?
DAVIS: I mean, I wanted part of the American dream. I wanted to be successful. I wanted to show success to my community, to my family --
HARLOW: Totally self-driven.
DAVIS: Totally self-driven. But at the same time, you do need support of others. No one person is an island. They need support. They support and they need people to galvanize, and come together in solidarity, support the young ambitions, to support adult ambitions.
So, in one way to do that is making sure we have programs that our youth can tap into. They can have their dreams come true. HARLOW: And we do have some of great programs, right? Like the
Harlem's Children's Zone in New York City, it is one example. But, Terence, for you, the problem is that not all the kids can get into these. They're limited in the numbers. That won't change.
MOORE: Well, I think one of the key things is -- I'm a Sunday school teacher here in Atlanta, one of the things I talk to my teenage kids about all the time is hope. There's always hope. You have to keep hope alive as Jesse Jackson likes to say, and that hope has got to start with you, because if you have other people trying to dictate your hope, your wellbeing, what you should be and what you should be about, then you're going to be in trouble.
And particularly when you've got all of these odds against you as a young black person, particularly a young black male, you have to find the inner strength to overcome a lot of things, and hopefully the federal government is going to help. Again, that's why the protests are good. We see some turning points there. It's got to start with the individual mentally to say that, hey, I'm going to do whatever I can do overcome this.
HARLOW: And final word to you, Doctor.
DAVIS: I mean, I just think we have to galvanize regardless of where you're from, if you have, you have to support and help others who don't. If you don't have, then you have to still realize that you can go far in this country. Regardless of what your limitations are, you have to believe that it's possible.
HARLOW: And there have been a lot of studies done that have shown even if parenting -- every one of all races has tough parenting situations, right, or the parents aren't around for some. If you have one positive individual in your life that guides you, that can make the difference in a child's life, even if it's not a parent or relative.
DAVIS: I can't agree more. Absolutely.
HARLOW: Thank you for coming in, Doctor, Terence Moore, great to have both you on. Important discussion.
All right. Coming up next on the program: the Sony hack we've been talks so much about. It keeps getting worse. Now, the hackers are promising the most damning document dump yet. The details ahead.
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HARLOW: Sony has had some major headlines this week, and executives there are holding their breath as they wait another possible nightmare. One coming apparently on Christmas.
The hackers who exposed very embarrassing e-mails, salaries, secrets, are now threatening to $8 billion company with a Christmas gift. What they say will be the most damning document dump yet -- a bigger leak that could lead to more damage to one of the most celebrated studios in Hollywood. More now from CNN's Pamela Brown.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want us to kill the leader of North Korea?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With Sony's movie about assassinating North Korean Leader Kim Jong-Un just days from opening --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Kim Jong-Un.
BROWN: Sony exec Amy Pascal was talking publicly for the first time since the hackers, suspected of being North Korean, broke into the studio's computer system and published millions of confidential and embarrassing e-mails.
Some of which bash A-listers, like Angelina Jolie for being a, quote, "minimally talented spoiled brat", just days after that e-mail surfaced between Pascal and Hollywood producer, Scott Rudin, Pascal is seen here at an L.A. event, receiving a seemingly frosty reception from Jolie.
Pascal told Deadline.com, "I am mostly disappointed in myself. That is the element of this that has been most painful for me. I don't want to be defined by these e-mails after a 30-year career.
In one e-mail to Rudin, Pascal, a big fund-raiser for President Obama, insinuates Obama only likes films with African-American actors, like "Django Unchained."
Pascal told Deadline.com, I'm embarrassed, deeply.
Today, the White House confirmed that Pascal and Rudin have apologized.
JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think that a lot of people who read those e-mails, maybe not everybody, but I think a lot of people cringed a little bit when they were reading them.
BROWN: But much more damaging in the juicy Tinseltown emails, the hackers have also published the medical records of Sony employees and their spouses, even their children.
KEVIN MITNICK, MITNICKSECURITY.COM: Twenty years ago, I was the world's most wanted hacker. I was an FBI fugitive for a number of years.
BROWN: Kevin Mitnick is still hacking, but now he's doing it to help companies to test their security.
MITNICK: It's like Pablo Escobar becoming a pharmacist.
BROWN: Mitnick says this was no snatch and grab job by the Sony hackers.
MITNICK: They spent a lot of time doing what they call information reconnaissance, to attack Sony.
So, it's really not that difficult for hackers to break in, but what's interesting about Sony is the amount of information they were able to steal, right from under their nose.
BROWN: Pamela Brown, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: All right. So, what does Sony do now?
Let me bring in a woman who knows a lot about how to deal with something like this, Martha Pease, CEO of DemandWerks.
Thank you for being here.
MARTHA PEASE, CEO, DEMANDWERKS: Thank you, Poppy.
HARLOW: You advise businesses on strategy, marketing strategy. How does Sony get in front of this?
PEASE: Well, it's difficult. I mean, what we're witnessing a company can be crippled and embarrassed publicly and be judged in a public court of shame almost. It's very difficult to get out in front of turning perceptions that are turning so rapidly at this point on Sony.
HARLOW: But you have said you think some of the top brass has to go?
PEASE: I think some of the top brass has to go. I mean, this is representing a corporate culture that is demonstrating not only arrogance, but racial insensitivity and many other unpleasant aspects of a corporate -- if you work where this is OK, the company is going to behave that way.
So, yes, I think we'll see the -- you'll see the executives moving along. But I think it's also important that the company acknowledged they have a problem, I think they need to figure out what it is that happened. The other part of this issue is every company has to assume at this point to be hacked.
HARLOW: Right, everyone.
PEASE: And there are clearly -- I mean, there are reports that the security was lax on the data. That there were unencrypted files and private data was easily acceptable. That has to be addressed as well.
HARLOW: But when it comes down to the numbers, because this is business and it's largely about the bottom line, there have been some arguments that more people will probably go see this movie now, "The Interview" at the center of this controversy because of all of this.
Do you believe that consumers will show their anger by actually not seeing these films? Because oftentimes when I go to a movie, I don't even know what studio it's from. I just know I want to see the move movie. PEASE: Yes, I think that's a really good point, Poppy. I think it is
quite possible this movie will in the short term elicit a lot more interest potentially than it might have otherwise. But I think in the long term, society is reaching a point, and our culture is reaching a point, where this kind of behavior is rubbing up against boundaries that aren't acceptable for the country at whole and for public opinion, and I think over time, a company like Sony is going to have to really wrestle to the ground their exposure in a way that -- their exposure and behavior that's inconsistent with the norms of society.
It doesn't matter that they're a large business. It doesn't matter that they're walled off with money, and a business model that keeps them producing a great product. They're ultimately going to have to answer in the court of public opinion about their behavior I think.
HARLOW: And we'll be seeing what happens with top execs as they get through the crisis mode, and then what long term?
Martha, good to have you on. I appreciate it.
PEASE: Thanks, Poppy.
HARLOW: Coming up, this story, a North Carolina medical examiner ruled this death a suicide but the hanging victim's family says there's no reason the 17-year-old would have killed himself. They say the evidence simply does not add up.
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HARLOW: So the FBI is investigating a North Carolina family's claim that their 17-year-old son who had been involved in an interracial relationship was lynched.
Our Victor Blackwell traveled to the small town of Bladenboro, North Carolina, to talk with the family.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLAUDIA LACY, MOTHER: I look for him, I don't see him. I listen for him, and I don't hear him.
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The last time Claudia Lacy saw and heard her 17-year-old son, Lennon Lacy, was around the time he snapped this selfie. The caption, "Last night pic before the game."
Lennon was a high school student in Bladenboro North Carolina and a lineman on the football team focused on a professional football career.
C. LACY: He was a physical fit 17-year-old, very athletic. Very, very athletic. Down to his food. Everything he drank.
BLACKWELL: But Lennon had asthma and had to exercise outside at night after the temperature dropped. Something his family said he did often. Lennon headed out for a walk the night of August 28th. They never saw
him alive again. The next morning --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a black male subject --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hanging from the swing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. He's hanging from it.
BLACKWELL: Lennon's body was found dangling, covered in fire ants in the center of a mobile home park.
PIERRE LACY, BROTHER: It's out in the open. There's trailers all around. People weren't, you know, around the clock these hours of the day. Someone should have saw something, but no one have seen anything. C. LACY: It was unreal. It was like a dream. It was like I was not
seeing what I was seeing.
BLACKWELL: The state medical examiner's office declared Lennon's death a suicide, but Lennon's mother believes they're wrong.
C. LACY: He didn't do this to himself.
BLACKWELL (on camera): Do you believe your son was lynched?
C. LACY: Yes.
BLACKWELL (voice-over): Pierre Lacy is Lennon's brother.
P. LACY: He may have been strangled somewhere else and then placed there, or he was hung there while people were around watching that.
BLACKWELL: When questioned by state investigators, Lennon's mom said he'd been depressed because a relative had died recently. Lacy said she did not mean that he suffered from depression.
C. LACY: When you lose someone close to you, you're going to be depressed, upset, in mourning.
BLACKWELL: Lennon's family said he was focused on football and college and distracted by his ex-girlfriend. His mother says 17-year- old Lennon had been dating a 31-year-old white woman. The age of consent in North Carolina is 16. Still some people in this small southern town did not like it. Lennon's mother did not like their dramatic age difference.
C. LACY: I was shocked. Disappointed. And I also initially told him how I felt, I did not approve of it.
BLACKWELL: In the wake of his hanging, some wondered if he was killed because he was in an interracial relationship.
Racial tension can often exist just below the surface, and here it can break through. Local news covered a Ku Klux Klan rally in a nearby county just weeks before Lennon's body was found. (On camera): Are there people in this community who didn't like that
a 17-year-old black male and a 31-year-old white female?
C. LACY: I'm sure. Yes. Of course. Of course.
BLACKWELL (voice-over): A week after Lennon was buried, a teenager was arrested for desecrating his grave.
Reverend William Barber leads the North Carolina conference of the NAACP.
REV. WILLIAM BARBER, PRESIDENT, NORTH CAROLINA NAACP: There are too many questions and it very well could be a lynching or staged lynching, we don't know. But what we do know is there has to be a serious and forward investigation of these manners.
BLACKWELL: The NAACP hired forensic pathologist Christina Roberts to review the case including Dr. Deborah Radish's autopsy completed for the state. Her first concern, basic physics. Lennon was 5'9". The cross bar of the swing set is 7 1/2 feet off the ground. With no swings or anything else found at the scene that Lennon could have used according to the NAACP's review, how did he get up there?
P. LACY: His size, his stature does not add up to him being capable of -- I mean, just constructing all of this alone in the dark.
BLACKWELL: According to the police report, the caller, a 52-year-old woman, was able to get the 207 pound teen down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I need to try to get him down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you can.
BLACKWELL: Then seconds later --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm letting him down.
BLACKWELL: According to the NAACP review, Dr. Radish also noted that she was not provided with photographs or dimensions of the swing set. Without this information, she would be unable to evaluate the ability to create the scenario.
Lacy says she told state investigators the belts used to fashion the noose did not belong to Lennon.
C. LACY: I know every piece and every stick of clothes this child has. I buy them. I know.
BLACKWELL: The initial report from the local medical examiner, however, notes that the belts appeared to be dog leashes. According to the NAACP's review, Radish said she thought some portion must be missing because there was no secondary cut in either belt. A cut that would have been made to take the body down.
And Lennon's family says he left home that night wearing size 12 Air Jordans. But he was found wearing these size 10 1/2 Air Force ones. Shoes that were not with Lennon's body when he was arrived at the medical examiner's office according to the NAACP review.
P. LACY: He's going to walk a quarter mile from his house in a pair of shoes that's two sizes too small after he takes off his new pair of shoes. And this is a 17-year-old black kid with a brand new pair of Jordans on? He's going take those Jordans off and just get rid of them and put on some shoes that ain't -- that's not his? We don't know where he got them from. No laces in them. And continue to walk down this dirt road late at night to a swing set in the middle of the trailer park and hang himself?
BLACKWELL: And there are questions in the NAACP review about Lennon's death being ruled a suicide. Dr. Radish noted that her determination of manner of death in this case as suicide was based on the information she was provided by law enforcement and the local medical examiner.
She would have likely called the manner of death pending while awaiting toxicology and investigation, but the local medical examiner had already signed the manner of death as suicide. However, in the summary of the case written the day Lennon was found, the local medical examiner asks, did he hang himself? Will autopsy tell us? And left the conclusion on the manner of death pending.
We asked to interview Radish who declared the death a suicide. Instead, a department spokesperson sent CNN a statement confirming the conversations between Roberts and Radish in writing, "The comments that were released by the NAACP were a synopsis of the professional exchange between the NAACP's independently retained forensic pathologist and Dr. Radish."
Local police and state investigators declined to speak with CNN on camera for this story.
BARBER: We don't have confidence in this local group here to be able to carry out the depth level of the investigation that needs to be done.
BLACKWELL: Now the FBI is reviewing the circumstances surrounding Lennon's death.
C. LACY: That's all I've asked for. What is due rightfully to me and my family. Justice. Prove to me what happened to my child.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: All right. Our panel here to talk about this case. Quick break. We'll be back on the other side.
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HARLOW: All right. We're back with more on the mystery surrounding the hanging death of a 17-year-old boy in North Carolina. Joining me now to talk about it, criminal defense attorney and HLN legal analyst, Joey Jackson. We also have Dr. Sampson Davis, an author and emergency medicine physician at Meadowlands Hospital.
Guys, thanks for being here. You just saw Victor's fascinating and very disturbing piece about this young boy and his death.
Let me ask you, first, Joey. Looking at the evidence presented in the piece, do you think that it supports a suicide conclusion?
JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: It's hard to tell, Poppy, but I am troubled and I'll tell you why I'm troubled. When you have a young man who leaves his home at night, goes for a jog at midnight, he's wearing size 12 shoes, he then is found in shoes that are two sizes too small, they're a 10. The mom doesn't recognize those shows at all. He's hanging from two belts.
So a blue one and a black one. Looked like dog leashes. His mother doesn't recognize these belts at all. He's romantically apparently involved with a 31-year-old white woman. He's 17. That's fine. The age of consent is 16. But, you know, you look at --
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: All the questions.
JACKSON: Right. You look at all the questions. Emmett Till, when did Emmett Till, the person, of course, we know in Mississippi at age 14, he whistled at a white woman, he was killed as a result of that. Mom has an open casket funeral. Happened August 28th, 1955. This happened August 29th, 59 years later. So that's symbolic to me.
And then, you know, you press forward and you look at the medical examiner and she says that this is apparently -- well, you know, we heard the piece -- suicide. But when you look at that, and you see she didn't have any death scene photos which I was asking the doctor about and she didn't have any dimensions of the swing set, it just becomes troubling.
And then one last thing, Poppy, when law enforcement didn't bother to inspect the room of, you know, the deceased and they didn't ask for cell phone or any of the records.
HARLOW: Records.
JACKSON: It seems like something --
HARLOW: State of mind. You need to know when you're talking about a suicide.
JACKSON: Exactly. You have to know that. Right
HARLOW: Doctor, looking at some of what we do know here, right. We know how tall he was.
DR. SAMPSON DAVIS, EMERGENCY MEDICINE PHYSICIAN/AUTHOR: Right.
HARLOW: Five foot, nine. And we know that the cross bars were 7 1/2 feet in the air.
DAVIS: Right.
HARLOW: Is it possible -- and it doesn't appear anything for him to stand on to get up there.
DAVIS: Right.
HARLOW: Is it possible that he could have hung himself?
DAVIS: I mean, I think it's difficult. And quite frankly, I do think it's impossible. Unless he threw the straps over the bar -- the swing set bar.
HARLOW: And pulled himself up.
DAVIS: And pulled himself up. I mean, but it's even that takes an amount of physical strength. And given his height and his weight, he was 5'9" and well over 200 pounds. So, I mean, I think that calls into question how was he able to pull himself up there --
HARLOW: They should at least be investigated and we know the FBI is investigating. You said something very important to look at also would be the marks on his neck.
DAVIS: Absolutely.
HARLOW: Which way, horizontal, vertical?
DAVIS: Horizontal versus vertical, with the strap marks, whether horizontal strangulation, usually it's considered a murder because the force that's applied is one of horizontal, it's perpendicular to the neck, so you're coming down sort of straight on to the neck. Versus a vertical or diagonal stretch mark -- strangulation mark, that's going to be more of a V-shape. So it'd be important to know what type of strangulation marks was present on his body.
JACKSON: Exactly.
HARLOW: All right. A lot of questions. I think we'll get some of those answers given how much attention is given to this case now.
JACKSON: I hope so, Poppy. Really.
HARLOW: Doctor, appreciate you joining us. Good to have you on the program and to meet you this evening.
Joey, as always, a pleasure. Thanks.
JACKSON: Thank you, Poppy. Thank you
HARLOW: Quick break. We'll be right back.
DAVIS: Thank you/
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HARLOW: Breaking news. This just in to CNN. We are receiving word of a possible hostage situation in Sydney. You are going to look at video. Take a look at that video now. Everything looks normal. But this is from just moments ago outside of a Lindt chocolate shop in Martin Place. That is a pedestrian mall, right inside Sydney's central business district.
There's very little information at this time including how many hostages there may be or how many people are holding them right now if this is indeed a hostage situation. What we can tell you is that the New South Wales Police unit, their media unit tells CNN, quote, "All we can confirm at this time is that there is a police operation taking place. We are commending that no one go near the area as we are trying to establish exactly what is happening."
What we do know also is that our affiliate, News 7 in Sydney, reports that two gunmen are on the scene. We at CNN cannot independently confirm that. We will bring you the details as soon as we have them on this breaking news.
All right. Let's move on to this for now. The U.S. Senate managed to pass a $1.1 trillion spending bill in a rare Saturday late-night session. The political hangover, though, could last for a while.
A group of conservative senators ignored party leaders trying to block the debate raising concerns about President Obama's immigration executive order plans. The budget also faced opposition from the left with some senators really unhappy about a provision that was added that weakens Wall Street regulations. But it passed, when it was all over, said and done. Democrats insisted the Republicans are the ones in disarray. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: I think that the differences between, among Democrats, are small compared to the huge chasm of Republicans. On the fundamental issues that face us, the economic issues that we need to address to get the middle class moving again, to get middle class incomes going again, there's amazing unity on the Democratic side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: All right. Let me bring in David Gergen, CNN senior political analyst and former adviser to four presidents.
So you've got some liberals abandoning the president, the White House, on this budget bill, right? Splitting hairs, saying, we don't want to vote for this because we don't want the regulations on Wall Street rolled back. You've got conservatives, some of them bucking the Republican establishment. Charles Schumer, then on the Sunday morning talk show "STATE OF THE UNION" this morning saying it's not us, we're not divided, it's the Republicans.
What do you think?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It's both now. But, Poppy, it has been clear for some years now that the Republicans have a wing, a hard right wing, conservative wing, that's now represented in the Senate by Ted Cruz from Texas, but joined, very importantly, by Marco Rubio and Rand Paul in recent votes over the last couple of days. And that wing continues to be very strong and can move the Republican
Party, can move the future -- had moved Mitt Romney to the right during his campaign. And I think cost him a lot of votes in the general.
What's new here is that we now see a strong wing going up on the left side of the Democratic Party, much stronger than what we've seen in the past, who has personified iconic figure Elizabeth Warren, the Democratic senator from Massachusetts. And there the -- you know, this could cause two issues for the next two years and beyond.
The first issue for Democrats and for Republicans is can the -- if the mainstream of the Republican Party gets together with president Obama, can either wing sort of kill the deal? It came close this time. The second issue, perhaps more important issue, for the long-term future is when you've got these two wings, they will each try to bring their presidential candidate of their party toward their side.
The conservatives will try to suck their presidential candidate over to the right and the liberals are trying to -- going to try to suck Hillary Clinton if she's the nominee way over to the left over the next couple of years. They'll try to force them to take stands closer to the edges, if you will, of American politics.
HARLOW: So I want to talk about Elizabeth Warren, because some say --
GERGEN: Sure.
HARLOW: -- she lost but she won in this. Right? So the White House said, look, pass this, we don't like the rollback on some of the Wall Street regulations but we've got to get a deal and just do it. And then Elizabeth Warren says no. I mean, she's been a crusader of more Wall Street reform. She says no. Ultimately this ends up in the bill that they're going to roll back some of Dodd-Frank. But some people are saying she stood her ground and that's a win for her politically come 2016.
GERGEN: Well, I do think that it's a win for her. She's not -- she keeps saying she's not going to run against Hillary, but she may want to exercise enormous influence over Hillary Clinton's candidacy and that is to pull her to the left to support the kind of regulation of Wall Street. The basic argument from the progressives like Elizabeth Warren is Hillary is too tough on foreign policy and too soft on Wall Street. And they want to pull her to the left on both of those issues.
HARLOW: Yes.
GERGEN: Hillary Clinton doesn't want to get sucked in that direction if she can possibly help it because it may impede -- it may -- you know, it may, in a general election, could really hurt her. But there, Elizabeth Warren has emerged this week. Yes, she -- I think she did lose, but she won because she's getting all this attention. There's nobody else out there to challenge Hillary Clinton intellectually, but Elizabeth Warren is stepping into that vacuum and it could be important. HARLOW: Are you announcing Hillary Clinton's candidacy, a foregone
conclusion, David Gergen?
GERGEN: No, no, no. But we know enough now to know that it's very likely she's going to run.
HARLOW: Yes.
GERGEN: I'm hearing reports she's telling people privately. You know, I've talked to her friends. They think she's going to run. But we'll have to wait and see.
HARLOW: We'll wait and see. And we'll have you on when get the announcement either way.
GERGEN: OK.
HARLOW: David Gergen, thank you so much.
GERGEN: Thank you.
HARLOW: Coming up next on the program, we're going to talk about drones. Has the use of drones done just as much if not more damage than torture? Where is the line? We'll discuss next.
Also that big hack at Sony have exposed some pretty shocking e-mails saying some pretty nasty things about celebrities, but it may be even more sinister than that by showing how easy it could be for someone to take down something like a power grid or your water supply. More on that straight ahead.
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HARLOW: Welcome back. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.
Talking politics here. A lot of Republicans have been trying to defend the CIA and this torture report, also defend former President Bush on the wake of that Senate report on the CIA's interrogation tactics. Now they've launched a counterargument questioning President Obama's use of drone strikes.
The drone program, there's a lot we don't know about it. It's very shrouded in secrecy, though, "The New York Times" has reported that the president does personally approve some of those targets.
Former White House advisor David Gergen joins me again, also CNN senior political analyst.
What do you make of the fact that we are having this increased conversation now in the past few days specifically about drone strikes and the fact that it is back that even if they do take out targets, they also kill innocent people that are around as well?
GERGEN: I think we're going to see a growing conversation about drones, Poppy, because there are two types of drones. One is being used to domestically, we're going to see enormous growth of the domestic drone population. And one of the -- unless we get some rules and regulations, one of them could take out a passenger airplane before this is all over.
But the same thing is sort of happening, there are to rules and regulations about drones internationally as in combat situations as we're now using them. But one day other nations are going to have drones of their own. What if they start targeting Americans here? It's going to be in America's interest to get some sort of legal protocols about how drones can be used for warfare purposes. At the moment we're out there pretty far and front of everybody else. Using them.
