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At This Hour

Gunfire Ends Sydney Cafe Hostage Crisis; Two Dead, Three in Serious Condition

Aired December 15, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JOHN BERMAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN CO-ANCHOR: And I'm Michaela Pereira. We want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the globe.

@THISHOUR, the hostage situation in the heart of Sydney, Australia, is over nearly 17 hours after it began, this according to the police there. It did not end peacefully. There are reports of two deaths and three serious injuries.

Just a short time ago police stormed the Lindt Cafe where a man identified as 50-year-old Iranian native Man Haron Monis held a dozen or more people hostage for nearly 17 hours.

BERMAN: Yeah, this dramatic video coming in, you can see it all developed around 2:00 a.m. local time there. That's about an hour ago. Some hostages running out of the cafe.

There was gunfire. There were flash-bang explosions. You can see police there in their tactical gear, clearly wearing night-vision goggles. We also saw what clearly were some bomb-squad members. There you can see one of the hostages, fleeing off into safety again.

Again, they say the siege is over. The police there from New South Wales say the siege is over.

How it all went down, there will be questions. I want to go to reporter Kathy Novak in Sydney. And, Kathy, it was a long, long night 17 hours into this. And, apparently it all came to an end when the man, Sheik Haron, as he likes to call himself, started moving hostages inside that room.

KATHY NOVAK, REPORTER: It certainly seems that way, John. All that police are saying, right now, they will just confirm that, as you say, the siege is over. We are of course seeking more details about exactly how that happened and trying to confirm reports of those fatalities and injuries. But right now, all we can confirm is that the New South Wales police say the siege is over.

This all happened with the last hour of so. We saw more hostages emerging from the cafe where they had been held all day, and then after that, police stormed the cafe, and we heard from where I am standing loud gunshots ringing through the air here in Sydney. And that's when a number of ambulances started passing by where I'm standing and a number of police cars, and the situation had been rapidly unfolding ever since then.

As I say, still seeking to confirm details of how many people may have been injured or killed. A lot of the issue had been all day we haven't been able to confirm how many people were even in there. The police had not been saying how many people had been taken hostage. The number varied from about a dozen to up to 50. It seemed they were closer to that dozen or so number.

But as we're seeing these people starting to come out, we're getting a better idea of how many people were actually in there but seeking more confirmation on their well-being. We saw the ambulances passing by where I'm standing now, presume they've been taken to hospital and looking for more information about what happened to those people who have spent this long day in this cafe.

PEREIRA: Yeah, a terrifying scene playing out sort of very quickly as it did, we watched it unfold before our eyes, Kathy. We saw stretchers taking out the wounded. Some people being -- walking out under their own power.

What of the gunman? Any word on confirmation that he is dead or injured? Do we know anything further?

NOVAK: No official confirmation from police yet. As we say, they say the siege is over so you can only assume from that that the gunman has been disabled in some way but no confirmation of whether he is dead.

This all started to happen as we got more word about exactly who he is. He's a self-proclaimed sheik named Man Haron, called himself Sheik Haron, and he proclaims to offer spiritual healing and is well known to police in Sydney.

He faced charges dating back to 2007 of sending offensive letters to the families of soldiers who had been killed in Afghanistan and, more recently, has been out on bail on a string of other charges of violent offenses, including being an accessory to the murder of his ex-wife and of sexual assault.

So certainly someone that the police knows very well. They would be aware of what he is capable of, and this outcome would be what they were hoping would not happen as they were trying all day to negotiate with this man.

BERMAN: All right, Kathy Novak, thank you so much for being with us live from the streets of Sydney.

Our affiliate Channel 7 reported that the way this all happened at about 2:00 a.m. their time, about one hour ago is this man was -- the hostage-taker was moving people inside that room.

At that point, apparently, some hostages bolted and were able to get out. A new round of people were able to escape.

PEREIRA: Yeah, we saw some escape yesterday.

BERMAN: We saw them escape yesterday. More escaped just about an hour ago. At that point, they saw a hostage fall and our affiliate Channel 7 says what may have happened is that police thought a hostage was down, and as soon as that happened, they say it necessitated going in and storming this chocolate shop that we have all been watching for so many hours now.

Part of what may have contributed to that is that this man is no stranger to authorities, the man who took the hostages. He was a self- styled Muslim cleric who appears to have been born in Iran. He'd been charged by authorities in two separate cases last year.

PEREIRA: Our Atika Shubert joins us from London. And, obviously, we know the FBI had been in contact with Australian authorities, Atika.

What more do we know and what more does the U.S. know about this man?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we know is basically he was very well known to Australian police. He conducted a number of very attention-seeking protests, changing himself to court, for example, in 2011, and he was charged, as you mentioned, in those two separate cases -- one in which he sent a string of harassing letters via post to the families of Australian soldiers who died in Afghanistan.

Now, he was convicted of those harassing letters and sentenced to 300 hours of community service.

Now, separately, last year he was also charged as being an accessory to the murder of his former wife. Now, that case, as far as we know, is still ongoing.

But this is a man is clearly known to authorities, not only for this string of cases but the fact that he was very public, making these public protests, draping himself in chains, holding up letters saying that he was being politically persecuted.

Now, interestingly, in a lot of his social media logs he gets increasingly radical, and on his website, seems to pledge allegiance to ISIS, but there's no indication at this point, for example, that there was any communication or direct communication with ISIS in Syria or Iraq at all.

So he does seem to be somebody who was sort of acting out on his own for the most part and doesn't seem to be affiliated with any particular Muslim community or organization in Australia but somebody very outspoken and known very much to police.

BERMAN: And, Atika, our Evan Perez in Washington says that the United States knew of this man and had their eye on him. As you say, at this moment, no link apparently between him and anyone else, are they calling this a lone-wolf incident at this point?

BERMAN: No one's calling it that yet, but what Australian authorities have been saying is that it does appear that he's been acting on his own. And the fact that he does appear to have been the only hostage- taker inside the shop, the fact that, for example, one of his requests was actually an ISIS flag, that he didn't have one of his own suggests that he wasn't operating under anyone's order but seems to have done this on his own initiative.

BERMAN: All right, Atika Shubert for us in London, tracking this man. You're seeing him right there, Sheik Man Haron Monis, apparently known to authorities both in the United States and in Australia.

PEREIRA: So we now know who this man is, but obviously authorities in Australia and perhaps beyond are trying to determine if he is, indeed, as you mentioned, John, a lone wolf or part of a bigger terror network.

We want to turn to our national security analyst, Juliette Kayyem. Juliette, you know, so much has unfolded since we spoke to you earlier today on "NEW DAY."

This guy says he believed he was politically persecuted. He seemed to pledge allegiance to ISIS, but he has a string of violent offenses and is out on bail involved in a murder of an ex-wife.

Is this a deranged man who perhaps used some of this ideology to be inspired by it to commit this act of crime?

JULIETTE KAYYEN: It certainly appears that way. Unfortunately, there is no shortage in the world of sociopaths and no shortage of soft targets, right? That's probably -- that's a combination of terrorism that we're facing today.

He -- and he has found some meaning possibly in ISIS's -- although your correspondent before makes it perfectly clear the fact that he didn't even have their flag so that suggests he's self-motivated.

But this notion of a lone wolf can be somewhat misleading. ISIS, and before that al Qaeda, wanted this to happen. In other words, they used to be formal terrorist organizations. They then were limited in their capacity, and so what they essentially did was say, hey, anyone who wants to be a member, sign on, follow us on Twitter, follow us on Facebook, and do violent acts in our name.

So in many ways, while lone wolf is accurate in the sense that he was never trained or told by ISIS to do this, this is -- the fact we're talking about ISIS is good for ISIS's brand, right? This is exactly what they would want. So -- and the number of people willing to do this, unfortunately, is infinite.

BERMAN: No. These are not the days of the al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan where hundreds would flock there and learn how to be a terrorist. Now, all it takes, as you said before, is simply a computer to be radicalized and get the idea to go do this.

Juliette, I want to talk about the last few minutes of this siege, because you've been saying all night and this morning that time was on the authorities' side, that this man would get tired, and it would provide an opportunity go in.

The fact now that we know at least two people are dead, there are several more injured, does that indicate that the end maybe did not happen as authorities planned here? KAYYEM: Yeah, this was clearly being -- that's exactly right. This was

clearly being set up as a wait-and-see, because the police in Australia as you certainly even saw in their press conferences knew that eventually physical and mental exhaustion would be to their benefit.

As your correspondent and other correspondents from there have suggested, the notion of a fallen hostage then triggered what law enforcement is supposed to do, which is when the hostage-taker appears to be violent as compared to waiting it out, they then go in.

And as we've seen with so many of these instances whether they're domestic, Columbine or Sandy Hook or they're like the Boston Marathon, what we know right now in terms of what unfolded in those few moments is going to change in the next 24, 72 hours about sort of what was that triggering point?

But definitely not what we -- not what they hoped for, and obviously given that there might be some hostages dead, not what we hoped for.

PEREIRA: I'm curious, you know, this didn't -- I'm sure this didn't miss you either -- you didn't miss this either is the fact that this man is sort of a different profile from these -- let's call them maybe lone actors instead of lone wolves, because I really get what you're saying.

But, Juliette, this is a 50-year-old man. This is not a young, sort of recently radicalized or even a young convert or someone who is sort of disenfranchised. I mean, clearly, this man seemed to.

What do you make of that?

KAYYEM: So the demographics are very different. It's a great point. He is older, but in some ways, the biography sounds familiar. He is isolated from most people and, in particular, his family if he was in a caustic divorce, as it sounds like he was.

And what we have to remember in almost all of these cases, the person is known to authorities for something different, right, that they were either sociopathic or violent or went after their wife or in this case all of the above. It's a way that law enforcement has to learn about what are the potential triggering events for someone like this who is a -- who they are aware of for other reason to then find a meaning for their craziness, for their violent behavior.

And ISIS or al Qaeda or any terrorist organization provides them that meaning. They are no longer isolated. They've got a bigger cause. It's all delusional. We know this. I'm not justifying it. It is -- that is the challenge for counterterrorism in open societies like ours and Australia where we love the diversity of religion and ethnicity.

And the peacefulness that that diversity almost always brings is -- as I said, you know, there are an infinite number of sociopaths and an infinite number of soft targets in the world we live in, and we'll just be getting used to this and getting better in our response as well. PEREIRA: We hope the latter is certainly the truth, that we will be

getting better in our response. Obviously we'll talk more about that in the coming days and hours.

Juliette, stay with us. We're going to have more on our breaking news from Sydney, Australia. The siege there is over. We'll update you on the latest developments after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: After hours of negotiation with a hostage taker, police stormed that cafe, a chocolate cafe, if you will, in Sydney, Australia, and got those hostages out.

BERMAN: There are two people confirmed dead, though, at this point, three others seriously injured. We did see seven people taken out on stretchers from there. Police do say the siege is over after more than 17 hours ago. It all ended one hour ago in a hail of gunfire and also flash bangs that people heard and saw so clearly.

We want to bring back International Security Analyst Juliette Kayyem. And also joining us is Tony Roman, he is President of Roman and Associates, a global investigation and risk management firm.

And Tony, we'll bring you into this discussion right now. Given what they knew about this man, authorities knew this man, Man Haron Monis, had written threatening letters to the Australian parents of servicemen who died fighting in Afghanistan. They knew he'd been investigated for violent acts, domestic abuse, perhaps plotting to kill his wife. Given what they knew about his tendency to violence, how did that affect how this siege ended? Did it make them more - did it necessitate going in in force much more quickly?

TONY ROMAN, PRESIDENT, ROMAN AND ASSOCIATES: Well, I think what happens in all sieges is they follow a very strict protocol. When a hostage is injured or threatened to be killed, that 's the moment that authorities will move in. Given that it was dark at the moment, the police, the tactical police, train with military commandos in night operations and night rescues so they're well-equipped to handle that kind of rescue at that time.

PEREIRA: Well also know, Juliette, it was interesting to watch how different from other hostage takings, perhaps. The gunman allowed hostages to keep their cellphones, encouraged them, seemingly, to send messages via social media. In fact, we saw those several videos that were posted on YouTube. Obviously, police and authorities there and obviously FBI would have been combing through those looking at them very carefully to see what they reveal about this man.

KAYYEM: Right, what they reveal about this man, and then of course, what they also reveal about where they're being held. Are there openings? Are there doors? Is someone at the window? And how many hostage takers are there. Because remember just 12 or 13 hours ago, we didn't -- it was not clear that there was only one. So this is the era of terrorists or people who want attention utilizing social media to amplify their impact globally. This is exactly what he did. He had the globe, all of us, watching because we didn't know what it was, and because it could have ended much worse than it appears it did. So that's exactly why social media was being utilized and it's almost impossible to control. Right? I mean, you send it out and it's very difficult for police to control.

BERMAN: And Tony, this man, Man Haron Monis, it was a 17-hour siege. Authorities were speaking to him either directly or through hostages for a long part of this time. Many conversations. How do you think they approached him? What were they looking for?

ROMAN: Well, they knew they were dealing with a sociopath. This gentleman had a history of sexual assaults and indecent exposure. He practiced black magic. So they knew this man very, very well. So first they profiled the individual psychologically and they approach him to see what his state of mind is. Then they have various technical methods to hear what's going on inside the room and to actually view it, as well. They make an assessment as to how many hostage holders they are, in this case one, that he's mentally unstable, that he has a history of violence. All of that is taken into assessments. Decisions are made early on as to what point the assault will take place.

PEREIRA: And another thing that we know is that law enforcement always has time on their side. They're not desperate. They're not anxious. They're desperate, obviously, clearly, to save lives, but they have time on their side. One of the things I found interesting is we heard earlier today that as time goes on, 12 hours, 13 hours, it got up to about 17 hours when this culminated, if you will. The mental health of the person starts to waiver a little bit as well, right? Their emotional stability, the more this siege carries on.

ROMAN: Michaela, you're exactly right. But it's a double-edged sword here because --

PEREIRA: A desperate person could react.

ROMAN: Yes, exactly. What happens is they become physically tired, they become more confused, the pressure builds to control the situation, hostages are escaping, the police are putting the psychological pressure on him. They get hungry, they get thirsty. All of this builds up, and it builds to a culmination as to where they start to acquiesce to police suggestions of surrender or release of the hostages or they move in the other direction and they become violent. In this case, he appeared not very happy that additional members of the hostages escaped.

BERMAN: You know, and it's interesting, Juliette Kayyem, who is still with us. Juliette, overnight there was a news conference with the commissioner of the police in New South Wales who spoke directly to the hostages and said, we are going to take care of you. I want you to know that our only goal here is to get you out safely. Was that a message to sit tight? Given what happened, we now believe that a group of hostages tried to break away - did break away at the end and then it does appears that there was a hostage down somehow.

KAYYEM: You know, I heard that, too. I think what he might have also been telling them is, we don't care who this guy is, you know, there's going to be all sorts of talk, is he part of ISIS or al Qaeda? We are focused on getting you out safely. But, you know, just back to the points we've been making this whole segment, the police are trained to anticipate that hostages will take advantage of any opening they can. We know this, right? And any of us would do the same.

But the most important thing now and just the sort of lessons of what happened is those who are hurt and injured and potentially dead is whose bullets? Because obviously we likely have an issue of friendly fire. That is the only way we're going to find out what actually happened in that very moment and learn from it. Not to cause blame, these are situations and with nothing goes -- rarely goes by the book, but to simply find out what happened in that moment when everything got violent.

PEREIRA: Well, it was certainly a heart-pounding few minutes as it went down. Juliette Kayyem, Tony Roman, we appreciate you both joining us with your expertise.

As of now, we believe the gunman did not have any accomplices, so was this a lone wolf or lone actor attack? And should we here in the United States be concerned? We'll discuss that after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Back to our breaking news. Police say the hostage situation at a cafe in Sydney, Australia, is over. You can see these dramatic pictures of the end of this siege right now. It did not end without loss. Australian broadcaster ABC is reporting that two people are dead, three are in serious condition. We don't know the condition of the hostage taker himself. Police say the man took all of the hostages, the man who did, is a self-described cleric who had a violent history.

We're joined now by CNN Terrorism Analyst Paul Cruickshank. And Paul, people are saying this man appears to have acted alone. He wanted an ISIS flag, no one knows if there's any direct link between this man who calls himself Sheikh Haron and ISIS. But is this a new model where there doesn't need to be a direct connection between a person and ISIS itself, where people only need to be inspired to commit terror?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well that's right, John. All the indications are that this is a lone wolf attack. That he was inspired by ISIS. That he wanted to do this to retaliate for U.S. and Italian air strikes against ISIS in Iraq and Syria. In a recent posting he talks about the Australians and the Americans as terrorists, so that appears to be the motivation here. But it is a new model for ISIS. The ISIS spokesman, Abu Muhammad Adnani, back in September called for lone wolf attacks in the west in Fatwa telling ISIS supporters worldwide it was their religious obligation to launch these kind of attacks. And since then, we've seen a number of plots and attacks in the west. You'll recall those two fatal terrorist attacks in Canada, then there was that attempted hatchet attack in New York, as well. There have also been plots in Europe and the U.K., John. So absolutely a new model of terrorism that's worrying law enforcement officials because it's so difficult to detect.

PEREIRA: Let's drill down on that a little bit further, because you know, you don't think of Australia, per se, as having to deal with these kinds of threats. But as you mentioned, we saw Canada, which is generally seen as a fairly peaceful nation -- I don't just say because I'm from there -- but they have had their shares of terror threats and issues. Australia even, they've raised their terror alert recently, no?

CRUICKSHANK: That's right. They raised their terror alert level in September. That same month there was a beheading plot linked back to ISIS. There was also a stabbing by an ISIS-inspired teen in Melbourne. Australia has been grappling with radicalization for quite a long time. There have been a sting of terror plots in Australia dating back to 2005. There was plot that year in Sydney; another plot in 2009 linked to al Shabaab support group.