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Police Say Sydney Siege is Over; Hostage Taker Possibly Dead

Aired December 15, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SEAN BERRY, CHANNEL 7 NETWORK: The number seems to be three or four given there were about 15 hostages inside at the time when all of this gunfire was going off and these explosions were happening.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's been an incredible time, Sean, hasn't it? We're talking about nearly 17 hours that this siege has been going on. And as you said, it was very, very quiet for a long time and nothing seemed to be happening and then it's all escalated in the last hour.

BERRY: Yes. It was really, really very sudden. We were all sort of waiting -- everyone, the authorities, police, and ambulance and (inaudible) were all waiting for this siege to end. They have to end eventually. When the news first broke at about 10:00, those terrible images of the hostages with their hands and faces against the windows who could have known how it would end up.

Since then, every hour, every moment has been the moment that this may potentially happen and then now early in the morning I guess police have the advantage of darkness, they have their night vision goggles and the lights are out inside the cafe perhaps gave them the advantage and made it a unique time to move.

Maybe they had little option when those hostages ran. That will emerge in coming days but certainly it was -- it did feel like it was out of the blue. There was little to give it away other than two white cars with specialized police inside pulling up near the cafe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know where the ambulances are going, Sean?

BERRY: Look, I can't be entirely sure. There are two hospitals close to here, St. Vincent's Hospital up in Paddington, that's quite close; as well as RBA hospital in Camperdown (ph). Both are an option. It depends how busy they are tonight at this time of day and this time of day they shouldn't be too busy and presumably they also would have been on alert. This was a well-organized effort by police. They triggered special terrorist emergency levels that gave them all the resources they needed. And one would imagine that the hospitals had been contacted and the ambulances who had been waiting here for most of the day for just this to happen knew exactly where they'd go and which ones would go to which hospital.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sean, for the last hour or so we've known the identity of the gunman but obviously police have known this information for quite some time and bearing in mind the violent history of this man, perhaps they realized that they were in for a little bit more than they were hoping for in the beginning, that the chances of a peaceful resolution were quite slim.

BERY: Well, yes. His history is far from glowing. He has a fairly long criminal history. I've covered a few of his previous cases. He wrote these letters to the families of Australian diggers killed in Afghanistan. He was sentenced for that and he'd been in court as recently as the last week or so.

So he was certainly known to police. They knew who he was. They began monitoring his social media presence and, yes, you'd say that they knew that the possible outcomes, what's happened here, people seriously injured, was a real risk when they moved in, but you know, they had to do it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His social media site was shut down just this evening and we know he'd been using the social media sites of the hostages to get his message through and that he'd also been calling radio stations and television stations to put his demands through to the government. But that information was obviously not made public to everybody because the police were hoping to hold on to that. So they've had quite a bit of information they've been dealing with throughout the day.

BERRY: Yes, that's right. And look he had been posting videos from inside the cafe on social media sites. Police had asked us not to broadcast them and all the media outlets and various media outlets were indeed being contacted directly by the hostages with his demands.

We'd been asked not to repeat his demands or show these videos. They didn't want to give him what he wanted and there was a real risk that he was inside the cafe monitoring what was being said and what was being reported and what was being put up on social media.

So police probably had a bit of a better picture of exactly what was happening inside but they kept saying and understandably for operational reasons they didn't want this man inside to know what they knew about him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sean, we'll cross back now to Chris Reason because we believe he has some more information for us from his vantage point. Thanks for the moment -- Sean.

Chris, what have you got to say now?

CHRIS REASON, CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Look, we've just got extra details -- some extra clarity, if you like, on the proceedings -- what took place in this last 35 minutes. Around 2:00 p.m. -- this is the timeline that we've got -- around 2:00 p.m. we saw a lot of movement inside the cafe, the gunman was moving the hostages from one side of the cafe to the other -- corralling them over one side.

Now as he moved them -- if I can speak in these terms -- the viewers might understand when they see the pictures of the location of the cafe. But as he moves them left five or six, maybe seven of them were stuck on the right and they bolted out the side door. They managed to make good an escape at that point. Four of them ran towards Elizabeth Street, two ran up towards Phillips Street, one came towards us and ran down Phillips Street the other way.

At that point there was a pause of maybe five or ten minutes, Sue, and then we -- I'm assuming here but some sort of panic growing inside on behalf of the gunman, inside the cafe. We heard the words from the police there was a hostage down.

At that point they decided to go in, we saw two groups of police, one from the left, one from the right. There were about maybe eight, two small groups of four coming in from the left, a bigger group on the left than there were on the right, all going in. The left first, you can see the vision there, the flash bangs that were going off. That went for a good five minutes.

As the other group came in from the right there was a pause in the middle of all of that. There were shots being fired as well as the explosions of those flash bang stun grenades if you like. At that point there was a big move to get people out of the left-hand side of the cafe. We could see clearly that the police were working on some of the hostages that we think we counted about seven people being taken out on stretchers in a row all the way down, running, being run down Martin Place towards that waiting queue of ambulances that has been sitting there all day.

Out of the seven stretchers, we think five of the hostages or the people injured were being treated by paramedics as they were in movement from the front door of the cafe into the ambulances. Two were just being moved perhaps just told to get on stretchers perhaps no severe injury. No idea of how severe in general those injuries were. All seven were put into ambulances and taken away.

There was no further movement at the cafe. We're assuming that the gunman was taken down, that his body is still inside the cafe. That's a big assumption, it could be that he was shot and one of those seven wheeled away by the police as well. That's the detail we have at the moment.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. We're going to break away from Seven Network Australia now and go to Sydney to a different location where CNN correspondent Kathy Novak is standing by.

Have you gotten any confirmation that the gunman is dead?

KATHY NOVAK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No confirmation as yet. This has all been rapidly unfolding in the past 15 minutes or so. That's when we saw a number of these hostages emerge from the cafe and the police storming that cafe and all of the gunfire that we had heard. We could hear it from where I was standing.

And as we know, paramedics had moved in, were on the scene treating people who appeared to be injured. I saw some of those ambulances passing by where I was standing and more police moving in. This is all still happening as we speak although it seems that it is quiet inside the cafe which seems to indicate what you're asking but we're still not getting confirmation of that just yet.

It's all still rapidly unfolding here just near Martin Place where these people have been holed up for hours throughout the day. It had been very quiet. It's about 2:00 a.m. here in Sydney and for many hours this had been a standoff between the gunman and police. But not long after his identity was revealed, this all started unfolding and we are seeing this situation now with authorities still moving in and out of this area where I'm standing.

COSTELLO: All right. Stand by Kathy.

I want to bring in Foria Younis , she's an FBI agent who worked on the joint terrorism task force here in New York. Take us through what you think might have happened as far -- because I mean obvious the police had a plan in place before they instituted it and just started throwing in stun grenades.

FORIA YOUNIS, FBI AGENT: Yes. Well, the police are very well trained. They train for these type of issues and especially in the last few months with what was going on in Australia, I'm sure they're more prepared than ever for something like to happen. But at once situation has happened now you have hostages and you have a hostage taker and now you have the police outside and they've developed you know, the scene of what is happening.

At that point, one of two things can happen. Something could instigate it from the inside, most likely the hostage taker himself, the gunman; or the police can determine what --

COSTELLO: Well, from what we know from Australia's reporting, right, one of the hostages fell and there are four big plate glass windows in that store so people could see in, including the police. So that would have instigated or -- that that would have gotten the plan moving.

YOUNIS: Absolutely. So here, for example, now, the gunman might have shot someone. The gunman, you know, if they're talking to him they may have realized that he's becoming more and more unstable and at that point the police determine what to do. Once somebody is shot from the inside, the police almost have no choice but to go inside, try to save as many hostages as they can which is --

COSTELLO: So what do they do? They throw in these stun grenades to create a distraction? Maybe the shatter the windows to create more of a distraction?

YOUNIS: Yes, to disorientate the gunman who's inside, you want to try to do whatever you can to gain the advantage for the safety of the officers but more importantly the safety of the hostages that are in there. So they do use -- these are specialized swat teams; they use all skills and different tactical equipment to try to go in there and neutralize the gunman before he injures any more innocent victims.

COSTELLO: We heard that seven -- up to seven hostages may have been injured. We've heard a police officer may have been injured. Obviously this is such a dangerous maneuver. Could police have handled this any other way?

YOUNIS: It's too early to tell exactly what happened there, Carol. And I -- it sounds like from what I heard earlier that the first shots were fired from the inside. But this is something we really have to wait and see what the outcome is. The Australian police from what I've -- know of them, they do a very good job and they're very well trained.

In hindsight you can look back and say maybe things could have been done differently. Why was this man still out on the street walking around with all of the violence that he's committed? So all of these things I'm sure will get analyzed but it seems to me just from this specific last 20, 30 minutes the first shots seem to have been fired from the inside.

COSTELLO: All right. Let's head to Washington and check in with Evan Perez. Foria is right, this guy had a very violent past. Certainly officers took this into account before they went into that store.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Carol. ?And you know, this is not the way the police would have wanted this to end, obviously, as you and I were talking just in the last 30 minutes. We saw them trying to throw in stun grenades and firing into the -- into this dark cafe. They had obviously some advantages -- they had night vision, he does not from what we can tell. But this is not the way usually you want to do this because obviously of the high risk of injury to some of the hostages.

But from what we can tell, from the reporting of reporters who are right there on the scene and could see a lot of this, it appears that the gunman started it by firing after some hostages made their getaway and that clearly agitated him when hostages made their escape. I think a group of six or seven or so managed to escape as he was moving them across the room shortly after 2:00 a.m. Sydney time is when he decides to take action.

And once he does that, once he fires his weapon, Carol, is when police have no choice but to come in and try to figure out how to end it all. And from what we can tell they've either killed him or they've detained him in some way -- either way, he's been neutralized and now the investigation begins as to exactly how all this ended, Carol.

As you said, you know, he goes by the name after Sheik Haron. He was well known to reporters, to police down there. He even was known to U.S. authorities simply because of his past and some of his activity online where he was advocating for ISIS and railing against the U.S. operation there in Iraq and Syria. So this is obviously somebody who was known, who was suspected of violence and so they were suspecting that they were going to have to do something if he ever took any action to harm any of these hostages.

COSTELLO: So Foria, a question for you. So whether ISIS existed or not couldn't this man with such a long criminal record and a troubled past and psychological problems, could he have done this anyway?

YOUNIS: Obviously there's people that commit violence for various different reasons. He could be mentally deranged. He could have known that he was facing a lifetime in jail and committed this violent act. But from what we can tell about him and these are from his own statements he was somewhat inspired by this group ISIS and ISIS' message about what to do about killing Western civilians. It kind of plays along with that.

So we look upon, you know, as investigators will look to see what has he said? He is somewhat focused on this ideology that ISIS puts out.

COSTELLO: And I want to go back to Kathy and I just want to remind our viewers of this man's criminal past. He's currently accused of trying to hire someone to kill his ex-wife. Is that right?

NOVAK: That's right he's currently on bail facing charges for a string of violent (inaudible) including the one you mentioned and also sexual assault charges. He is a self-proclaimed Sheik. He calls himself Sheik Haron and he purports to offer spiritual healing and those sexual assault charges are associated with these services he claims he provides.

So he has been charged of that and has been currently on bail and the other charges stretch back to offenses that he has been convicted for. And those are writing offensive letters to the families of soldiers who were killed while fighting in Afghanistan. So this person, certainly no stranger to the police and as we know, they will have known throughout the day who he was and what he is capable of. They were not confirming earlier in the day that these hostages that escaped going on about 12 hours ago now had actually escaped. They wouldn't confirm to media whether they had been released or whether they escaped.

But as we heard from local media reporting who had a clear vantage point of the cafe, that he became quite agitated when those initial hostages were let out of the cafe. So we first saw a group of three, then another group of two and just now the latest hostages, that's when all of this violence erupted here in Sydney.

COSTELLO: All right. Kathy, stand by, I'm getting new information. We understand two people are dead. Do we know if those two people were hostages? I'm asking my producers right now. Do we know? We do not know. But we do know that two are confirmed dead, three are in serious condition. We heard from the Australian TV reporters that at least seven people were taken out of that shop on stretchers.

We also heard previously that one police officer might have been injured but as you know details are slowly coming out. Often in these breaking situations information is conflicted and sometimes wrong but we have confirmed, sadly, that two people have died in light of this incident.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: The hostage drama in Sydney, Australia that's been playing out for the past 16 hours appears to be over at this hour. Police say that the siege is over. We have reason to believe that the gunman may have been killed although we can't confirm that as of yet. We do know that Australian broadcaster ABC is reporting two people are dead and three are in serious condition. Australian reporters also say that seven people came out on stretchers from that coffee chocolate shop and were taken to area hospitals.

A reporter for the Sydney "Daily Beast" has been covering this story almost since it began. Courtney Subramanian and I apologize if I butchered your last name. She joins us by phone from Sydney. Tell us what you're learning.

COURTNEY SUBRAMIAN, SYDNEY DAILY BEAST: Sure. So obviously the situation has escalated here in the last half hour as you said. The New South Wales police has declared the siege as over but we're still uncertain if this was an operation or if something unfolded inside and authorities were forced to act. But ambulances are on the scene. Paramedics are taking people out on gurneys. And, again, it just escalated pretty quickly, much like it started this morning.

COSTELLO: Yes. Hostages were escaping here and there. Some escaped yesterday but this incident where police went into the store seem to be sparked by more hostages running from the building.

SUBRAMANIAN: Yes, that is correct. There have been reports that anywhere between five and seven hostages came out just before police did storm the cafe and there were sounds of gunfire or some type of explosion. It's not clear. So the police have most of the area cordoned off. So it's been hard for anyone to get near the scene. But there are images being reported and images of pops of light coming out of the front of that cafe.

COSTELLO: Yes. However you look at it though, two people are dead -- that's according to the Australian broadcaster, ABC. So this came to a sad end. Tell us what the past 16 hours have been like because things like this don't happen in Sydney.

SUBRAMANIAN: Right. And you know, the thing is I spent most of the day at Martin Place just a block from the cafe. It was eerily calm despite the situation. People were gathered around almost like watching some sort of spectacle rather than treating it as a hostage crisis.

I spoke to a few residents who were evacuated due to the situation and I got the sense that this is just something Australians really aren't programmed to respond to. They're removed from terrorist attacks and so it was very surreal for a lot of people throughout the day. Even when we saw some of these hostages being released people remained very calm and composed and this situation might have been a little bit different back in the United States.

But here everything seemed to be very organized and tight-lipped with the police and, again, just onlookers remain very calm the whole time.

COSTELLO: You know, I'm wondering if it will make any difference to people, you know. The suspect is a self-described sheik. He had a long criminal history. He's currently accused of hiring someone to kill his ex-wife. Well, I don't even know how to ask the question but we always think terrorism, of course, he had some inspiration from ISIS, right? Because he was requesting an ISIS flag and he wanted to talk with the prime minister. What will Australians make of this suspect?

SUBRAMANIAN: I think he has a history as you said of -- a quite checkered history. The authorities knew who he was. They knew who they were dealing with so I think especially in light of the situation you've seen a lot of Sydney residents show solidarity with the Muslim community and there have even been -- there was a hashtag on Twitter. I think it was "I'll ride with you" -- basically a bunch of Sydney residents offering to share public transportation with anyone in the Muslim community who was feeling nervous about any sort of tension with religious intolerance or any sort of backlash with this incident.

So I think now that we have identified the gunman and have noted that he has a very sordid past, you know, I think the Muslim community especially will rest a little easier. And I think police are definitely prepared if there's any sort of backlash. But it doesn't I don't have a sense that there will be.

COSTELLO: All right, Courtney Subramanian, a contributor for the "Daily Beast" in Sydney, thank you so much. You're watching continuing coverage of the hostage drama that's just ended in Sydney, Australia.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: The hostage drama unfolding in Sydney, Australia inside that chocolate coffee shop appears to be over. Police tell us the siege is over. We do know that it ended sadly, though. According to the Australian broadcaster ABC, two people confirmed dead and three are in serious condition. In all we believe seven people were taken from that coffee shop by stretcher to area hospitals. We're still trying to find out information from them. But by all accounts the siege is over and we do believe the gunman is dead.

I want to bring in terrorism and hostage negotiation expert professor Adam Dolnik, he joins me now by phone. Welcome.

ADAM DOLNIK, HOSTAGE NEGOTIATION EXPERT (via telephone): Hello, good evening.

COSTELLO: Thank you for being here. Australian police have been training for this sort of thing for months. From what you saw on television, did they do all the right things?

DOLNIK: As far as I can tell, everything went very, very well from the negotiations perspective. In a situation like this, of course, the negotiation element and the tactical element worked together. They had to be supported by command and integrate those elements together. The negotiators are very well trained over the last eight years for hostage situations.

There are many people in the command of the police, counterterrorism who are former negotiators who understand how this works. I think they provided a lot of time for the negotiators, all the time that the negotiators needed. Unfortunately, the outcome is not what we would like to see.

COSTELLO: Yes. What were some of the more serious challenges for police?

DOLNIK: I think the series of challenges from beginning was to establish a motive (inaudible). It's been quite clear early on that this person did not have very strong ISIS links otherwise he would have brought his own flag and he probably wouldn't be as egotistical and (inaudible). Also another challenge was to control the social media aspect and all the messages that are out in a negotiation like this, you want to monopolize the communications as much as possible so that you're the only one influencing the hostage taker inside. But obviously with today's technological reality, that's quite a challenge. So these are some of the challenges.

COSTELLO: All right. Professor Adam Dolnik thanks for your insight. I appreciate it.

And thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

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