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Sydney Gunman Identified; Gunman Near Philadelphia

Aired December 15, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And here we go. Top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me as we continue our live continuous coverage of the breaking news out of Sidney, Australia. A dramatic ending here to this ordeal that lasted 16, 17 plus hours in this chocolate cafe into the overnight hours.

We have some new information here as far as those injured and those dead from Australian law enforcement. This is what we just got. In total, 17 hostages accounted for. Five had escaped earlier. Two hostages have been pronounced dead. A 34-year-old man and a 38-year- old woman after being taken to the hospital. Four others were injured. Six hostages uninjured. So if you count this up with me, three dead total, including the gunman.

Let me back up and explain to you what exactly happened. This self- styled Muslim cleric, carrying an Islam flag, held down a coffee shop before it ended with an eruption of gunfire and a fury of stun grenades lighting up the night and breaking an eerie silence in downtown Sidney.

The siege over in a matter of moments. As police just told us moments ago, the gunman shot and killed. Two hostages also dead. Six more were rescued, as I mentioned a moment ago, uninjured, and one police officer was wounded in the face. But what was stunning, the pictures here outside of this cafe, the handful of hostages who ran to safety just before police moved in, and several other hostages had managed to escape several hours earlier.

It all started Monday morning local time, about 6:00 p.m. Eastern U.S. time last night. A man carrying a gun entered the shop carrying a bag with a gun and a customer called police. At one point, TV cameras caught a glimpse of hostages through these cafe windows you see right here. They reportedly took turns holding up a black flag with Arabic writing. It read, "there is no god but God and Mohamed is the prophet of God."

The gunman has been identified. His name is Man Haron Monis, a self- styled Muslim cleric, born in Iran. He is no stranger to police. And I can tell you, his record is long. This self-proclaimed sheik, now dead, brought to his final crime. A troublesome rap sheet. Some local infamy as well. Here he is, Iranian refugee Man Haron Monis stage a one man protest in front of a Sidney courthouse. CNN's Atika Shubert is with us now from London with more on exactly

who he is.

And tell me more. This protest is connected to his arrest for sending offensive letters to families of Australians killed in the war in Afghanistan. Atika, I know last year he was charged as an accessory to murder. That was the brutal stabbing death of his ex-wife. This year, 2014, a young woman who'd sought counseling from him accused Monis of sexual assault. That case is still pending at his death.

Atika Shubert, what more do we know about this man?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we know is that he came over from Iran and settled in Australia. And it appears that over time he went through a sort of change. It appears he converted from Shia Islam to Sunni Islam and he became increasingly politically agitated. And those letters you talk about, he sent out a string of letters in 2009 to the families of soldiers killed in Afghanistan, Australian soldiers, and these were really harassing letters. And he pled guilty to that and spent some time in jail during that trial and he claims, as you can see in that poster there, that he was tortured in prison. That's something that police have not commented to us about.

But it's clear that he was very well-known to police. He was practically a fixture on the streets of Sidney, chaining himself to the court, to parliament one time. But these charges of accessory to murder, for example, of his former wife, that kind of fell apart in court when both he and the other person involved had alibis. But then, most recently, he's faced these charges of sexual assault dating back to 2002 when he was advertising himself as a spiritual leader.

Now, what is all coming together now is a picture of a man who has increasingly had run-ins with the law, who was under pressure from the court system and also he claimed on his website that he didn't - he was being denied access to his children. So we see this sort of pressure cooker situation. The question is, what triggered this violent action? Up until now, it isn't clear that he had taken any sort of action like this. So we don't know exactly what was leading up to it. And Australian police will be investigating that.

BALDWIN: Atika Shubert, thank you so much, in London.

I want to talk a little bit more about this. Let me bring in former FBI counterterrorism agent Ali Soufan. He has served on the joint terrorism task force and has carried out a number of high level negotiations. He's also the author of "The Black Banner: An Inside Story of 9/11 and the War Against al Qaeda."

Ali, thank you so much for coming on and for bringing me your book, by the way.

ALI SOUFAN, FORMER FBI COUNTERTERRORISM AGENT: Thank you. Well, yes, it's all yours.

BALDWIN: Thank you. I've been wanting this. But let me begin with the significance of the black flag, right, because this hostage taker had some sort of, as we see in the window, some sort of black flag in this chocolate, in this coffee shop. And one of his demands was, he wanted the actual ISIS flag. Can you just first explain the difference to me?

SOUFAN: Yes, that's interesting.

BALDWIN: Why?

SOUFAN: For a person who supposedly planned all this and he gets there and he said, oh, I got the wrong flag. I mean something here doesn't make sense and it gives us an idea, or at least an insight about the mentality of that individual.

BALDWIN: What are you thinking about his mentality anyway (ph)?

SOUFAN: Well, it seems that he's all over the place. He's a criminal. He is trying to cover his crime using religion. And he seems under a lot of pressure from the court. He allegedly was involved in about, you know, dozens of - I forget the exact number of sexual assaults.

BALDWIN: Huge rap sheet. Sex assaults, yes.

SOUFAN: And then possibly killing his wife. So he want to go down as a hero, not as a thug and not as a criminal.

It seems to me that there's something fishy about the individual. The investigation is still early on. I think I'll be, you know, very anxious to see what the Australian police are going to find out about the motivation, about why he did that. But the flag that he had with him is basically a black flag that has a shahada (ph) on it, you know, "there's no god but God and Mohamed is his prophet." And that flag, on black, is basically the original flag of al Qaeda under Osama bin Laden.

BALDWIN: It is?

SOUFAN: Now, with al-Nusra, they added Jabhat al-Nusra underneath it. it's the same one with Jabhat al-Nusra, thee Nusra Front, underneath it, and that indicates it is al Qaeda affiliated organization in Syria.

The ISIS flag is a little bit different. It is black. It has the same terminology, but it has that circle at the bottom. And it's a little bit different than al Qaeda flag. It indicates the same narrative. Both of them indicates the narrative of Osama bin Laden. Both of them indicate the narrative of bin Laden-ism, if you want to call it. But it depends which flag you have. It indicates who's your leader, Baghdadi or Zawahiri.

BALDWIN: As we learn more about why and the who with regard to this man, how would ISIS - you know, let's assume this is a lone wolf situation, someone who is clearly inspired, perhaps by ISIS online. We talked, you know, so much about the propaganda that exists. But how does ISIS use this instance and other instances that we've covered in other -- whether it's U.S., Australia, Canada, to their own benefit in the real war?

SOUFAN: Well, they will use it that they are able - they have been successful in instigating Muslims around the world to rebel and to support their goals. I mean terrorism, the nature of terrorism, has been shifting in the last few years. Actually, it started shifting after 9/11 when al Qaeda moved from being the chief operator to being the chief motivator. And they took advantage of social media, of the latest advances -

BALDWIN: I'm so glad you hit on that. Yes.

SOUFAN: Yes, the leader -

BALDWIN: Because so was he, apparently.

SOUFAN: Absolutely. The latest advances in, you know, communication and (INAUDIBLE) communication technologies. So they are using all these things to their benefit.

So now we don't have covert cells for the most part. We don't have covert cells in western countries trying to get together and do a spectacular attack like we've seen in 7/7 in London, or a 9/11 or in the Madrid bombing. Now we see these so-called lone wolf who had been radicalized on social media and it's very difficult to stop what they are trying to do because they go from radicalism and they mobilize themselves operationally in a very short period of time without any contact with a bigger cell or with the main organizations where we - where law enforcement and intelligence community can disrupt them and stop their act (ph).

BALDWIN: I mean, I was wondering earlier, because we haven't been covering, you know, many of these, hoping a lot of counterterrorism officials have been able to thwart a lot of what we won't even talk about because I can't tell you what was thwarted, you know?

SOUFAN: Sure.

BALDWIN: But is that really -- this is your wheelhouse. I mean is this something that you think is something that could obviously happen here and that is your biggest worry, a lone wolf attack versus something much more sophisticated or no?

SOUFAN: I think, look, we have to live with the fact that these things will happen and might happen. Nothing can stop one crazy individual who has been radicalized of going and doing something like this. So we have to keep that in mind and we have to live with the fact.

However, however, I think law enforcement and I think the intelligence community had been doing a great job -

BALDWIN: A fantastic job.

SOUFAN: In identifying these individuals and in disrupting these sort of attacks.

BALDWIN: Yes. SOUFAN: And they have been way more successful than many other countries around the world, especially here, the NYPD, the FBI, law enforcement and the intelligence community in the United States. However, that indicates, from a more strategic perspective, that there is a significant problem we have.

After 9/11, we did not have a strategy to counter the narrative and you and I spoke about that many times before. We did not have a strategy to counter the narrative that feed (ph) into - of terrorism. We have tactics. Some of these tactics were phenomenal. (INAUDIBLE). Some other tactics, unfortunately, played into the enemy's hand and gave them additional reason to recruit and give more - and get more credibility.

What we need to do today is we need to figure out a strategy to counter the narrative that feed into extremism, counter the ideology and disrupt the thinking and the thoughts and the people who believe in bin Laden from spreading all the way from the western shore of Africa to Australia.

BALDWIN: Countering the narrative. Ali Soufan, the author of "The Black Banners." Thank you so much for my book and thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

SOUFAN: Thank you, Brooke. Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, we'll speak live with someone who trained police in Sidney. We'll talk about those final moments of the standoff, the tactics, what forced teams to storm that cafe. At what point did crews decide to use flash bangs and why would that be?

Plus, if a similar hostage situation happened in an American city, as we were discussing, would tactics be similar? Stay right here. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

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BALDWIN: All right, let me get you back to our breaking news. Two hostages are dead after a dramatic standoff inside a coffee shop in Sidney. The hostage taker is dead and police say it was an isolated incident, not part of a larger plot or terrorist operation. On the phone with me now is Adam Dolnik. He's a terrorism and hostage negotiation expert, who has actually trained Australian police.

Adam, you with me?

ADAM DOLNIK, TERRORISM/ HOSTAGE NEGOTIATION EXPERT (via telephone): (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: All right, sir, let me begin with, we just heard, as part of this law enforcement briefing in New South Wales, that the S.W.A.T. team, the tactics changed. Once they heard gunfire, you know, that's when they went inside of that cafe. And I'm wondering if you thought they waited too long to go in?

DOLNIK: Actually, (INAUDIBLE) indicators of good progress in the negotiation. There was no clear threat of violence. There were no executions of hostages or anything that would give you the indication the negotiations were not progressing. So my guess actually is that this was more of a spontaneous eruption of violence that could have happened several ways. One of those ways was that perhaps hostages were trying to run away or do something but caught - but orchestrated the panic and the fear that he's losing control. The other option might be an attempt to provoke this (INAUDIBLE) into a cop -- suicide by cop, which might be an option for this individual (INAUDIBLE). So I do not think we're talking about a preplanned tactical operation that was simply (INAUDIBLE) into action at the appropriate moment. I think it was (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: OK. So as they are heading inside of the cafe and they don't entirely know what they're walking into, given that kind of a situation, do you think that they're intending to capture or to kill at that point the hostage taker?

DOLNIK: Obviously, the (INAUDIBLE) of the tactical team sees the hostage taker fire or attempt to fire at the hostage. (INAUDIBLE) eliminate the hostage taker. Otherwise, the approach, of course, is to (INAUDIBLE) as possible, including (INAUDIBLE) hostage taker. So that's why you tell police to be patient in the negotiation effort and providing all the time necessary for the negotiations to end peacefully. Unfortunately, that didn't happen this time.

BALDWIN: Unfortunately not. Two hostages, as we now know, have passed away. With this hostage taker, Adam, we know that he has quite the rap sheet. He was, you know, Australian officials were well aware of him. U.S. officials even were. And I'm wondering if there was something that officials there in New South Wales could use, some information on him in their negotiating that could have been used to their advantage?

DOLNIK: Well, certainly in the beginning of an incident like this, it seems to have been (INAUDIBLE) motivated, ideologically motivated. But (INAUDIBLE) progress (INAUDIBLE) many indications that this person is probably a troubled individual in a personal crisis, but kind of using the ideological bandwagon, but may not be primarily (INAUDIBLE) by that. Which also means that the negotiations would then resemble more standard law enforcement situations, rather than dealing with hard core terrorists that are trained to be in this situation and are - and are, you know, composed state of mind. So, overall, I think the situation (ph) would have been very difficult to predict, but if the information started to come out, of course, it idea (ph) about the hook (ph) that you can use to engage the hostage taker, to build rapport, to find a goal (ph), influencing them into being what we want them to be, which is to release hostages and behave in a peaceful manner.

BALDWIN: Adam Dolnik, who trained Australian police yourself, thank you so much for jumping on the phone with me. I appreciate it.

We want to dig a little deeper on the suspect, find out more about his past and why police were so familiar with him. Also, how he used social media to his advantage during the multiple hours, 16, 17 some hour siege. Plus, happening right now, another standoff. This one right here in

the United States. This man has barricaded himself inside of a home after a deadly shooting spree. Those new details are next.

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BALDWIN: We're going to take you back to our special hostage - special coverage of the hostage crisis in Sidney, Australia.

But first, more breaking news this afternoon. A suspected gunman is on the run after a deadly shooting spree, this is just north of Philadelphia. Still underway here. In fact, the new information now is the number six. Six people have been shot dead in what police are calling a domestic dispute that spans now three communities. Police have been surrounding this one home where they thought the suspect was and a S.W.A.T. team surrounded that neighborhood but now that has changed.

So for the very latest, Susan Candiotti is joining me. She's been following all of this.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BALDWIN: And just can we start at the beginning. How did this happen?

CANDIOTTI: Well, it all began very early this morning. And, initially, police believe that this suspect was holed up in one location after allegedly shooting and killing his ex-wife, and they said at least three or four other relatives.

BALDWIN: Oh.

CANDIOTTI: So initially we thought at least four or five people had been killed. And they concentrated their efforts on one location where they believe the suspect had been hiding, had been holed up. But then, within the last hour or so, we saw people coming out of that house, someone being put on a stretcher and being taken to an ambulance and flown away. And then we learned more information that the count is now up to six people killed. And also three more people injured.

And now the search is centering around another home in an area that's about 20 or so miles away. So after sitting on this one home for a very long time, apparently eventually they got in and found that there was someone else who was injured, and then moved on to a different location.

BALDWIN: So he's been moving, as we mentioned, three communities now, maybe four.

CANDIOTTI: That's what it looks like.

BALDWIN: Moving from different locations. Do we know if he has any connections with these different homes or communities?

CANDIOTTI: Well, we do know, according to our law enforcement source, that this appears to be a domestic related shooting. BALDWIN: OK.

CANDIOTTI: And that at least one of his victims is his ex-wife and that others are also related to him. And they're releasing to us the name and a photograph of the person who's on the run. Let's take a look at him now.

BALDWIN: Let's put it on the screen, guys.

CANDIOTTI: He is being identified as Bradley William Stone. There he is. Thirty-five years old. He is a resident of a community called Pennsburg. This is in Montgomery County, which is in the Philadelphia area. And they're saying that he is indeed the suspect in these six deaths and the serious wounding, they're saying, of at least three other people. All of the victims, they say, are related in some way to the suspect.

They are looking for him. They say that he might be wearing military fatigues. At one point they had some schools in the area of the original location -

BALDWIN: On lockdown?

CANDIOTTI: On alert, on lockdown, but now that lockdown has been lifted, I guess, because they've moved to a different location now. They do believe that he may be armed and dangerous.

BALDWIN: Please stay in close contact with us, if that changes, if you learn any more about this latest location where he's holed himself up, we'll get you back on TV.

CANDIOTTI: yes.

BALDWIN: Susan Candiotti, thank you very much for that.

CANDIOTTI: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Out of the Philadelphia area.

Back now to our special coverage and breaking story out of Sidney, Australia. Two hostages are dead at this standoff inside a cafe. The gunman, who had this black Islamic flag there in the window in some of those pictures, has been killed after gunshots erupted. We will show you the moments as they unfolded.

Plus, the growing threat of lone wolves, including right here in the United States.

Stay right with me.

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