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Don Lemon Tonight
Cops Under Fire: Are Local Police Departments Too Militarized?; Criticism Leveled at Police Since Ferguson
Aired December 16, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, I'm Don Lemon.
I want to welcome our studio audience this. This is a live CNN TONIGHT special, "COPS UNDER FIRE."
(APPLAUSE)
LEMON: We are really excited to be here tonight. It's an important conversation. I want to tell you about these stories. These are the stories that shocked America recently.
The shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson. The Eric Garner chokehold case in Staten Island. John Crawford III killed by police while holding an air rifle at a Wal-Mart. His family is now suing officers involved.
All these are just one side of the story and they might make you think that police are the enemy. Before you jump to that conclusion consider this, two New York City police officers were allegedly assaulted by protesters during a demonstration on the Brooklyn Bridge on Saturday. And police say Lieutenants Philip Chan and Patrick Sullivan were bruised all over their bodies. And Lieutenant Chan has a broken nose.
On average a law enforcement officer is killed in the line of duty in this country every 58 hours. It comes from the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund.
So what do we want from the men and women who are sworn to protect us and what do they want from us?
We've got police officers and retired officers here with us tonight and we're going to be answering all of your questions. They'll be answering them as well.
You can join the conversation. Make sure to use the #copsunderfire. Copsunderfire.
But first let me introduce our officers, our police experts here. They are David Klinger, he is a former street cop in L.A. and professor of criminology at the University of Missouri, St. Louis. He shot and killed a man attacking his partner.
Officer Stacy Lim who's been with the LAPD for 26 years. She trains patrol officers and got shot through the heart in a gang shootout. Sandy Wall, a retired Houston police officer who as a member of the SWAT team faced hundreds of lethal threats. He shot three armed gunmen. Paul Hershey also retired Houston police officer and SWAT team member. He shot two armed gunman.
And Neil Bruntrager, he represents St. Louis Police Officers and is an attorney for Darren Wilson, the officer in the Michael Brown shooting. He began his career in 1981 as a prosecutor.
And I also want to note this. The fifth officer we invited, an African-American sergeant with the NYPD agreed to join us tonight but we're told he is unavailable now.
So, welcome, everyone. Let's all have a very, you know, important conversation, let's be honest with each other. You can ask whatever questions you want if I get to you but make sure that you're respectful.
But again, I want to thank you guys for joining us tonight. Many of you came a long ways.
So you've all used your weapons in the line of duty. And I want to ask each one of you to explain what happened.
David, I'm going to start with you. Your partner was attacked.
DAVID KLINGER, FORMER LAPD OFFICER: Sure.
LEMON: And what happened?
KLINGER: Long story short, we responded to a call to a barricaded gunman. And he was in the house on the north side of Vernon. And there's a crowd on the south side of Vernon. So my partner and I were moving up to button down what we call the west edge of the perimeter and one of the people across the street wouldn't leave so my partner went over to try to get him out of there.
The next thing I knew the guy completely unprovoked stabbed my partner in the chest with a butcher knife and my partner backed away. And the guy jumped on top of him, knocked him to the ground, and as I'm running across the street, by the time I get there, the suspect has his hands like this, going down on my partner. My partner is laying back, we're fighting over the knife.
I'm a dumb rookie, I think I don't want to have to shoot this guy because my training says try not to shoot, try to take the knife away. Didn't work. Dennis, who's my partner, said shoot him. So I was about this far away, I shot the guy once in the chest. Dennis was able to lock his elbows out. We fought the guy for another 30 seconds. Some other officers came up and we were able to get him handcuffed and then he bled out about one or two minutes later.
LEMON: It is a very dangerous job. And I also want to ask Stacy.
You are still currently on duty, right, with the LAPD? You were shot in the chest, you were critically wounded. Then you followed your assailant. You remember what happened after that?
OFFICER STACY LIM, SHOT IN THE CHEST BY GANG MEMBERS: Yes.
LEMON: What happened?
LIM: Well, I was following juvenile gang members. I was off duty so they're trying to -- single female in the car, trying to steal my car. When I stepped out of my truck he pointed a 357 magnum handgun and fired at my chest. And turn and ran. I fired once at him and then went after him and then when he got to the back of my car he turned and fired five more times at me. I fired three more at him. He went down. And then I was losing blood so I tried to get inside my house.
Get home and all the blood lost, I passed out on my driveway from all the blood and paramedics came and de-fib me on my driveway to bring my heart back the first time. Took me to the hospital. Went into surgery. Found the bullet fragment in my chest and shattered my spleen and hit my large and small intestine. Put a hole in the base of my heart, lungs just barely missed, cracked a rib when it exit my back, left about a tennis ball size hole.
LEMON: And you told them you were a police officer, right? Do you regret doing that? Do you think that made the situation worse?
LIM: I don't necessarily regret doing that. Part of my training is you want to -- I was trying to say police, drop the gun. And when I got police out, he just fired. And he was about three and a half feet from me when it happened. So there's not a whole lot I could do about that and just reacting to the action that he gave to me and, you know, anyone else can do the same thing. You just try to protect yourself and others.
LEMON: And Paul, I understand that you fired your weapon twice in the hundreds of times that you were a Special Threat Situation in Houston? Why do officers shoot to kill? Explain the training to me.
PAUL HERSHEY, FORMER HOUSTON POLICE OFFICER: Well, it's not actually shooting to kill. What we're doing is we shoot until the threat goes away. An example of that would be the shooting that I was involved in. We were called on by our homicide investigators to serve a warrant, a murder warrant, on a man who had murdered a citizen in Houston, set the body on fire. They came to us because they felt like this guy was pretty violent and they wanted our -- the numbers and the expertise that we'd bring with us to serve that warrant.
We -- the information we got was that the suspect was in a House with his girlfriend and her child. Instead of just physically serving a warrant, kicking the door in and serving the warrant on the house we thought it was a better idea to allow him to separate himself, leave the house. We knew that he would be going to work at some point in the morning.
So we set up a tactical situation in terms of we had officers, SWAT officers in uniform in marked cars, and we had other officers and SWAT officers in tactical gear who would support an arrest that we were going to try to effect on him whenever he rolled. Our plan was to do a felony traffic stop on him. Let him get away
from his girlfriend and the child. When we did he -- a small car chase ensued. We used spike strips to flatten his tires. He crashed out.
LEMON: How long did this go on and how did it end up?
HERSHEY: Literally from the time he left the house until the time I was engaged in the shooting was maybe a matter of 90 seconds or two minutes.
LEMON: And the final outcome?
HERSHEY: He got out of the car -- he crashed out in a ditch off the side of the road. My partner, we crashed off into another ditch off to the right side of the road. My partner got out of the car. He was driving. He got out of the car -- the suspect got out of his vehicle and was tracking my partner with his handgun, getting ready to shoot him. My partner was trying to engage him, he was firing rounds, missing.
By the time I was able to get out of the vehicle, climbed out of the ditch, all I saw was him pointing the gun at my partner. I fired six rounds and he fell. But at that point I was shooting only until the threat goes away. And he fell to the ground and then he still had the gun and he tried to raise the gun, I fired two more rounds and killed him.
LEMON: OK. Yes. I can still see it's hard for you to --
HERSHEY: The whole idea is --
LEMON: It's hard for you to say that.
HERSHEY: Yes. Yes, nobody wants to do that. You know, I didn't -- you know, I thought he was shooting -- literally I thought he was firing rounds at my partner. I mean, you know, the whole situation as it unfolds, it's so fluid that you're just a reactant to what you're seeing in front of you.
(CROSSTALK)
HERSHEY: And trying to make the decisions.
LEMON: As I understand when this happens you -- many times it's like tunnel vision. You don't really -- you don't really know what's happening many of the times and you sort of -- if you're in a corridor, the corridor seems like it's much longer than it actually is. Time sort of slows down or speeds up, depending on what happens.
Explain what it's like to be in a situation like that because I think you were involved with three shootings in the more than 20 years that you served in Houston, on the SWAT detail?
Well, you revert back to your training, obviously. or slows down depending what happened. Explain what it means to be in a situation like that. You were involved in three shootings in the 22 years you served.
SANDY WALL, FORMER HOUSTON POLICE OFFICER: You revert back to your training obviously. And one of the things we were talking about earlier is that it's more of a conscious thought not to shoot than it is to shoot because you react to what you're seeing and revert to your training and you engage. And you're in fear of your life or in fear of another person's life and you're doing what you have to stop that act.
But in one of my shootings I remember looking at the barrel and thinking, that's an automatic or semiautomatic handgun. It's either chrome or nickel plated and I'm thinking it's a 45. All of that happened in a mill of a second and I'm thinking this while I should be defending myself and I thought I actually was, but it's amazing what the mind decides to focus on in those instances and Dr. Klinger here wrote a book about that. Calling into the kill zone. Because every officer's perception is a little bit different. It's amazing what the mind decides to focus on and what it decides not to.
LEMON: And it's kind of automatic. Right?
WALL: Absolutely.
LEMON: It happens automatically.
WALL: Absolutely.
LEMON: I want to go down to Neil Bruntrager, he's in the audience, and he represents Darren Wilson, the officer involved in the Mike Brown shooting.
What is the biggest misconception you think about Darren Wilson in the situation in Ferguson?
NEIL BRUNTRAGER, ATTORNEY FOR DARREN WILSON: I think people assumed that whatever happened that day happened --
LEMON: Hold the mike.
BRUNTRAGER: -- because Darren was somehow angry or had gone out that day in an effort to hurt somebody. But I think once people started to get the information and started to be able to look at the evidence I think that that was dashed but I think that misconception is a strong one and that was at least in part fed by there was such a long period of time where we couldn't say anything because of the ongoing investigation and only one side of the story was being told. And there were many, many misconceptions but that perhaps was the worst.
LEMON: That was the worst.
All right. Stand by, everyone. Before we go any further I want to take a look -- I want you to take a look at a day in the life of a police officer.
Here's CNN's Kyung Lah.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Facing off with protesters in the streets of Ferguson. A manhunt through Pennsylvania. Dangerous duty for America's police, but this image isn't always reality. The average cop's job often ordinary.
In 2012, 780,000 officers patrolled America's streets. Average pay for those officers, about $57,000 a year. Every cop in America carries on the duty belt a semiautomatic handgun but you'll notice the duty belt also has what's called less lethal weapons. In 2007, 60 percent of police agencies used tasers or stun guns, 93 percent, batons, 97 percent pepper spray.
The officer wearing the belt and badge increasingly female. The latest Department of Justice report from 2007 shows one out of eight officers is a woman. A majority of law enforcement remains white, 75 percent, 12 percent are black, 10 percent Latino, 2 percent, Asian. Regardless of race, age or gender --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer down. Officer down.
LAH: -- they all face one of the highest rates of injuries and illnesses of any job in America. The FBI says last year 76 officers died in the line of duty, 27 were killed nearly all by firearms, 49 died on the job accidentally, mainly in car crashes. Nearly 50,000 officers were assaulted while responding to calls and making arrest.
What we couldn't find, a comprehensive national database when police officers fire their weapons. An FBI report from 2008 shows 375 officer-involved shootings. But that data is only a small sampling of the real number of police shootings in the United States.
(On camera): The biggest danger police face isn't the suspect they confront while on patrol. National data shows officers are twice as likely to commit suicide than they are to be killed in the line of duty. Danger on the job and in their own lives.
Kyung Lah, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right, Kyung, thank you very much.
Much, much more to come with our police experts and our studio audience.
Next, we're going to put you in the shoes of a cop on the beat in a life-and-death situation. What would you do?
But first I want you to take a look at what can happen during a routine traffic stop. This dash cam video in Middlefield, Ohio in March of 2013 comes from our affiliate WOIO.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back, everyone, to our live CNN TONIGHT special "Cops Under Fire."
Police officers face life-and-death situations every single day from the outright dangerous like confronting gangs to the routine like a traffic stop. But even those can be deadly. In dangerous situations what would you do?
I want to give you a chance to find out.
First, I want to introduce my guests, David Klinger, Stacy Lim, Sandy Wall, Paul Hershey and, of course, he is a current retired officer, they are, Neil Bruntrager, an attorney who represents police officers and also represents Officer Darren Wilson in Ferguson.
All right. I'm going to put you in the shoes of police officers. OK. And I want to explain the scenario here.
We have some videos used to research police confrontations. It's part of a lab study. It's at Washington State University. They're actually partly funded by the Defense Department in a simulation now. You're going to be responding in this simulation to a domestic violence call and I'm going to ask you, what would you do? First let's watch it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officers, (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So there you go. In a lab during simulation you might hear the officer interacting with a virtual suspect yelling at him to stop it. At this point you cannot see his right hands, right? So we just played it. But the question is what would you do if we rack it back? What would you do? What would you do at that point where you couldn't see his hands?
How many of you would shoot him? How many of you would shoot? Raise your hands if you would shoot. You would shoot? In that situation you would shoot?
OK. Why is that before we go back to the video?
BRUNTRAGER: Because you're putting this individual in a room where his hand is hidden, he's already engaged in violent activity. He is going to turn at you and he is going to either do harm to you or to the individual who's there. LEMON: Yes.
BRUNTRAGER: Under those circumstances the courts have all said not only can you but maybe you should.
LEMON: So it was about six or seven people, if that many, the audience has said they would not shoot or they would shoot, right? They would should. Everybody else would not shoot.
All right. Let's let it play out so that everybody can see it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gun in the (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KLINGER: You know, what that shows, Don, is how quickly it happens.
LEMON: So everybody in here, the majority of people who would not shoot, the woman ends up dead, the officer could end up dead and the suspect ends up dead, as well, right?
KLINGER: Yes.
LEMON: Go ahead.
KLINGER: It's tough. I mean that's the situation and I've interviewed about 300 cops around the country. Been involved in shootings and some in similar situations such as that and as Neil pointed out, the courts would permit an officer to shoot in that circumstance but I think an awful lot of officers would do what most of the audience did and that is hesitate.
What we'd be doing is giving verbal commands to the individual, show the hand or something, let go of the woman, but you have to have your gun up and out and you have to be ready to pull the trigger, and so as soon as you see that gun, you got to start shooting.
LEMON: Yes. I'm going to get up and tell the control -- can I borrow this microphone?
So who back here -- I want to say who would not shoot? You said you wouldn't shoot, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn't.
LEMON: You wouldn't shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, because I --
LEMON: Did you see what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, but I wouldn't assume he had a gun right away so I probably would have been caught off guard. But no, when you paused it I wouldn't have shot. LEMON: You wouldn't have shot. And you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After watching the video I definitely would have shot.
LEMON: But before you would not have.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Does this -- does this change --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But just to see how quickly the situation changed like in a matter of seconds. And she could end up dead. I could have ended up dead. The officer could have ended up dead so after seeing the video absolutely I would have shot.
LEMON: All right. Let's look at it again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right? Come here.
(EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come here. Every guy in the neighborhood (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(GUNFIRE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So here's the question, after we hear about police shootings, right? Officer-involved shootings. After looking at that does that change anyone's mind about -- do you feel like maybe sometimes the public at large jumps to conclusions about officer- involved shootings? Anyone here? Right here?
Does that? Would that -- does that change anything?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Certainly. I mean, that showed us that you really can't -- you know, you can't know what they're going through unless you're actually in the situation. Myself, I would have hesitated, too, because I wouldn't have -- I would not have assumed he had a gun. That was the last thing on my mind.
LEMON: That he had a gun. Do you think in these situations with -- and a lot of this has been -- race has been brought into it, right? And we talk about race. Do you think that you have -- do you in that moment think about race to even have time to think about if the suspect is black, white, Hispanic, Asian? Do you have time to think about that, Stacy?
LIM: No.
LEMON: Do you?
LIM: No. You don't have time. You only have time to think if it's male, female, adult, kid. Because you're looking at the situation itself.
KLINGER: You know, in Stacy's situation, what happened is she steps out of her car and all she sees is a gun pointed at her. I mean, you talk about the notion of how we have perceptual distortions. She didn't even see the kid that she shot.
LEMON: Yes. The officers, you all would have shot?
HERSHEY: No.
LEMON: You would not have shot?
HERSHEY: No, no, as you played the video, this is a perfect depiction of action is faster than reaction. Meaning the actions of that suspect -- it's going to be faster than the reaction of the officer. The best you're going to get is a 50-50 draw. And that's -- you're going to lose. You're going to get shot. But as the video rolled there was a -- there was a corner, it's a hallway so there's a corner in the kitchen.
I would have taken a barricaded position on that -- on that hallway, making verbal commands. I wouldn't have shot until he pulled the gun out but I would have shot him.
And I would just add that, is that cops are human beings and everyone is going to act differently based on your training, based on your perceptions, your personality. You're never going to get this is how all cops are going to do it.
LEMON: I want to dig -- here's what the research shows. Washington State University study found that while volunteers of all races often view African-American suspects as more threatening than white ones, that they were actually more restrained in shooting African-Americans they were than they were white suspects.
KLINGER: Absolutely. I was part of that research and I was a co- author on a follow-up study to that and basically what happens is the implicit bias that everybody is talking about where you push buttons. What Bryan Vila and Lois James, and some other folks at Washington State want to do was make it more realistic.
And what they found is when it's more realistic it's more of the social that Paul and Sandy were talking about -- that Stacy was talking about. We need the entire situation, when that happens race does not play a major role in terms of the decision to shoot and, in fact, the officers are slower to shoot with black suspects and also they're less likely to make a mistake when they're facing a black suspect. We talk about that in terms of a counterbias that actually works for the favor of black suspects.
LEMON: Scientific research. That's fact.
KLINGER: Yes. Yes. Well, I -- this is not the end-all, be-all, it's not the end of the study -- not the end of the research. But this study is pretty powerful.
LEMON: Do you know -- you guys know where I'm going. How many of you believe that?
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: How many of you believe that? I hear you laughing -- I hear someone back here. Wait, why don't you believe that? Why did you laugh?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I mean what he's saying it just happened that so many black young black men just end up dead with, you know, no weapon and nothing. I mean if you're so slow to shoot a black man, most of them would be alive today, you know, where we don't have about white men getting killed without a gun. We have white men with guns and they don't get killed.
(CROSSTALK)
KLINGER: What I would say is the data shows that unarmed white men are killed. And another thing I think is real important for everybody to understand all of us have been involved in multiple situations particularly Sandy and Paul where we had absolute lawful right to shoot people, white, black, Hispanic. We held fire because we don't want to kill people, we don't want to put bullets in people's bodies. We don't want to shoot people. And so what the research suggests is that that notion of being restrained is coming out in this experiment.
LEMON: OK. Lots more to talk about in our CNN TONIGHT special, "Cops Under Fire."
Are body cameras the next important tool for police officers and would they change anything? We'll get answers and opinions from our experts and we'll get a demonstration of how body cameras really work. Make sure you stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: I am so glad we're doing this and I'm so glad that all of you could join us this evening live here on CNN. Welcome back to our live town hall, "Cops Under Fire."
With advances in technology, are body cameras the answer for police?
The mayor of Los Angeles plans to begin outfitting all police officers with body cameras, calling the program a benefit to both law enforcement and to the public.
So back with me now, police experts are with me, and also we're joined by Todd Morris, the founder of Brick House Security which makes body cameras, and I'm wearing one now. You're probably just wondering what that is. So show us how this works. This is what the talk of the nation about
outfitting police departments.
TODD MORRIS, FOUNDER, BRICK HOUSE SECURITY: So what you're wear there is a body worn camera that at the push of a button can start recording from your point of view to show what you're seeing. That one can also stream via Wi-Fi back to your car, records on to a tablet or a phone, so it keeps the recording safe and away from you. And it gives you the ability to show what's happening from your point of view.
LEMON: OK. So then -- you're seeing the camera now. So how does this -- I'm going to walk around a little bit and ask you this. So as we are walking around, this is my -- so how does this actually -- that's your, right?
MORRIS: Yes.
LEMON: How does this stay on especially if an officer is, you know, in a tussle? How does this stay on to the body.
MORRIS: So these are pretty industrial strong clips. They hold on pretty tight and -- so they don't really off. The fact that they're recorded offsite to a tablet or a phone, also helps that if they do fall off you still have it.
LEMON: Can we switch? Can I have yours? Is that possible?
MORRIS: Absolutely.
LEMON: Is that a big deal to do?
MORRIS: Not at all.
LEMON: Because I'd like to walk around the audience with it. Let's do that. Here we go, alright. So this is the one, so the officer would have -- there are different sorts right us.
MORRIS: Yes.
LEMON: Put that on for me. There are different sorts and I would imagine they would make it a bit sturdier and where it stays on better, I got (inaudible) better if it's for police officers, right? If it's own police officer.
MORRIS: Yeah.
LEMON: So, what do you think? And who gets to see this? Is there a designated person as I walk around here?
MORRIS: So that depends on who buys the camera. When a police officer buys the camera with their own money, it's up to them to decide who sees the video. When there's a policy in place, then the video can be controlled and seen by a variety of people depending on the policies in that city. That seems to be the big question right now of, what should those policies be? Who gets to access to that video, under what situations, because, it's in the public record. Should anyone be able to get it with a foyer request for any reason, we don't know.
LEMON: OK, I understand that you have been selling out of these lately with what happened recently. Why is that? What's going on?
MORRIS: What we're finding is a lot of police departments around the country are doing demos, trials and evaluations, but while they're doing that police officers are actually buying the cameras personally with their own money. Because they're concerned and they don't want to be the next person accused of something and doesn't have the proof from their point of view that it didn't go down that way.
LEMON: So even if the department isn't buying these for the officers, officers buy them themselves just because they want to be protected. Well, interesting. You said protesters are buying these, as well?
MORRIS: We're seeing protesters buy them here New York, as well.
LEMON: Why is that?
MORRIS: I think a lot of them just want to make sure they have a record of what happened. Just in case there's misbehavior.
LEMON: Is it possible to tamper with these, with the video, with the outcome afterwards?
MORRIS: These encode their video with a time and date stamp that can't be altered. If someone tries to edit the video it will be obvious it's been edited.
LEMON: Yeah. How do officers feel about these? Do they want to wear them or in general or no.
KLINGER: I think my experience is generally it's going to take a little while for officers to warm up to it, that's because it's new technology. It's gonna take a little while, but, once officers learn of the potential benefits, absolutely. The problem is as he was pointing out is the policy about who gets to look at this. When I see a young police officer I interrupted two rapes in progress and those women have a right to privacy this isn't something that shows up on YouTube. If -- Don, you're having a fracas at your house and Sandy and Paul show up to mediate the dispute. It's your worst day you don't want that out on YouTube. So we have to have some type of state level laws to handle the situation for your request, so the public can't get stuff in uploading Youtube and have fun at someone's expense on their worst day.
LEMON: Do you think this would have helped in Ferguson with my --
BRUNTRAGER: It is certainly part of the issue what are the part -- activity would have helped. But the initial contact in the car wouldn't have helped at all and, Don, you noticed it when you walked around the room you have to be facing it in order for that to be really useful, right? So turn sideways to me right now. You wouldn't be facing me so the initial contact in the car would have not been reflected at all in the body camera. So, again, it can answer some questions, it's not going to answer all the questions. It's not the panacea that everyone thinks it going to be. Can it be useful? Yes, but I think we have to make sure that we tailor our expectations.
LEMON: But we saw -- with Eric Garner, we saw everything. We saw it. That didn't make a difference. So how is this going to make a difference?
KLINGER: I think what it will do is will provide one representation in two dimensions from one perspective, and maybe Sandy wants to comment on this or maybe Stacy. But, what happens about what you are perceiving and what is being recorded might be two very different things.
LEMON: All right. Do you think -- do you think these will make a difference?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
LEMON: Did you say no? No, I don't.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I don't think there will be a difference because like you said we did have a camera for Eric Garner and it was from -- well, from his point of view was out, it was a third party person recording. And furthermore, what happens if you do like you said, are you getting some confrontations where it's a shootout and then it shoots off or something happens to the camera then. Is the data now -- not there, is it non-existing or do you only have what was previously recorded, and then what happens that?
LEMON: I think it's interesting because everyone relies on technology and everyone wants improved technology but when it comes to this, many people -- how many do you think it will make a difference? If you think -- raise your hand if you think they'll make a difference. How many of you think they won't make a difference? New technology? You don't think it'll make a difference?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it would be -- there all set be laws in place to protect people that this is the one stop, but there has to be other steps as well. And I'm not sure of that if we don't have a system that is more just, that just body cams are gonna help.
LEMON: How many times do you think it is gonna be used against the suspect or the perpetrator rather than for just to get information as what happen with the sub (ph) do you think that? What do you think that? Hang on, let me get over to you. Why do you think that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, it's kind of easy. You know, over in Staten Island, we go also the same exact thing and somehow what we saw wasn't really what we saw.
LEMON: Yeah. It's interesting because we would think that knowledge is power, right? And by having more cameras even if you hear a scuffle you might think it would be better and more information. But I am surprised that so many people are buying these actually. Police officers, protesters, who else? Who else is buying this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're used a lot about police officers and the protesters but we also see them used by other people who are in a position where they could be accused of something. Even people, security guards, private security guards are using them, as well because very often these lead to large legal battles of he touched me inappropriately and spoke to me inappropriately and leads to a settlement.
LEMON: I have to run. What are the costs for an average per police officers?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This runs about $200. That one is about $400.
LEMON: All right. Thank you very much. Up next, our CNN TONIGHT special, "COPS UNDER FIRE". Are local police departments becoming too militarized. But first, I want you to take a look at the tent scene that New York City police faced last week when they confronted an emotionally disturbed co intruder who entered a synagogue and stabbed a student. The attacker was shot and killed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, hey, hey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. (beep)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. (beep)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (beep)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you take with me?
(GUNSHOT)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
LEMON: We are back, everyone. With our live CNN TONIGHT special coverage of "COPS UNDER FIRE", a lot of the criticism that has been leveled at police in the last couple of months since Ferguson has to do with militarization or over militarization. Do armored car, snipers and police in full body armor keep the peace or do they make things worse? So back with me now our team of police experts from all over the country. I want to get a show of hands you -- were you watching Ferguson? Were you watching it initially? How many do you think with the way the police were dress, armor vehicles, do you think it made the situation worse? Show of hands -- you do. You don't. No, no -- but I want someone of that -- who doesn't. Because I think we've spoken a lot about people who said it did, so I want hear from you why you think it doesn't -- it didn't. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just feel like they're protecting us and they
should look like they're protecting us and if they need a helmet and a shield and they need an armored car to get behind in case something gets bad, I like the idea that they're protecting us.
LEMON: What do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think in the situation in Ferguson, I think that it wasn't necessary. I think there were initially peaceful protests and I think that when you bring guns and people see that and they see the shields and see everything I think that kind of brings a lot more emotion into the situation and people feel like they have to protect themselves from the people that are supposed to be protecting them.
LEMON: All right. OK, so some of the officers on our panel believe that. You have some questions about what happened initially in Ferguson, correct, is that right David?
KLINGER: Yeah, I mean -- since I live there and I've worked with some of these agencies, some of the things I don't understand for example is there really isn't a need to wear the camouflage. You can a regular --
(LAUGHTER)
KLINGER: You can wear a regular uniform. And the other thing was and I still don't understand is maybe the chief is gonna get upset with me, but they should have held a press conference and gone from head to toe explaining what everything is. The officer is wearing a helmet so, if a brick comes flying he's not get his head cracked, he's got -- a chest protector just like Yadier Molina has. And he's got on shin guard just like Yadi has, because bricks and rocks and bottles come. Nobody has been ever been injured by a police officer from a shin guard or helmet. And I think if chief would have explained that to people, held a press conference that that might have set a different tone. But I know Sandy he's got thoughts.
WALL: Most police officers serve their entire career and never fire their gun in the line of duty.
LEMON: And you spent with two decades in a SWAT detail (ph) right?
WALL: Absolutely. And -- most officers are never shot. But we wear body armor, we carry a gun, we carry it for worse case situation, because it turns to that it is within an instant, and there's little time to react. So, the same thing out there, they were coming for worst case scenario. If this turns bad what are we gonna do? If someone from that crowd starts shooting us, we got a place to retreat to. We can't say, "Wait a minute, stop the shooting. We have to get some more equipment." It's gonna happen right now, and you got to be prepared for worst case situations.
LEMON: So even if it -- even it hasn't started...
WALL: Absolutely. LEMON: You're familiar with --
WALL: What are you supposed to do?
LEMON: With the expectation that, the worst can happen.
WALL: Yeah, time-out, wait a minute. There are no time-outs.
LEMON: You guys think that's fair?
(LAUGHTER)
KLINGER: I was on a panel with Captain Ron Johnson, I'm sure everybody has seeing him. And I didn't know this until Ron told me a few days ago, that an armored vehicle that people saw or one of those armored vehicles they used it multiple times to rescue down citizens who are in the kill zone and they got peppered with gunfire. And, so that's -- that is what the armored vehicle is for. Neither Paul nor Sandy can talk chapter and verse about the purpose of an armored vehicle, how critical they are when used appropriately.
LEMON: When does protect and serve become us versus them.
BRUNTRAGER: You know, it is -- it's been something that's been changing and evolving over the years. I've been representing police officers for 33 years now. And it is -- it's sad to watch on so many levels because I get to see these men and women and I get -- I know what they do on a daily level. I know the effect it has on their lives, on their families, on their wives, on their husbands and their children, I know what they going through. And it's -- tragic that we've lost sight of the fact that they do protect and serve and, again, we've lost sight of it and we need to get back to it.
LEMON: Andre, you had a question about what you can and can't do when being arrested, will your question as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question is what exactly is resisting arrest? Is it raising your hands? Is it asking the police officer a question? Is it backing away? Exactly, what is resisting arrest and what we can and can't do?
LEMON: Go ahead.
KLINGER: He's a lawyer.
LEMON: That's a legal question.
BRUNTRAGER: This becomes a legal question. Well, resisting arrest is defined by every state and unfortunately, we have a legal definition but it's application on the street is really what you're asking I think. Is it what can I expect and the answer is, you can expect that if you treat a police officers with the same respect that you want, you are by and large gonna get that same respect.
LEMON: Oh, you're gonna get it. You're gonna get it.
BRUNTRAGER: You may say, you may say that...
LEMON: Do you guys believe it?
CROWD: No.
LEMON: Neither I do. We don't believe it.
BRUNTRAGER: That's been my observation.
LEMON: Why don't you believe it? Why don't you believe it? Who said -- what? What did you say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It depends who you ask. Because, I could -- I mean for some of us who deal with these things every day the reality is we can be sweet as pie and if an officer or anyone has a preconceived notion about me he's gonna react based off of that. So, again, it depends who you ask.
LEMON: We're gonna talk about this more and we're gonna talk about -- but you think race plays into it, don't you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.
LEMON: How many people do? Raise -- show of hands. OK. All right, we'll talk about that and you can join the conversation at home. Make sure you use #CopsUnderFire. We'll be gonna right back with more from you and from our studio audience. But first, I want you to look at this, a police pursuit in Fortville, Indiana turns violent, and in the matter of seconds. Officer Matt fox was critically wounded in the incident two years ago, but he survived, and it all started because of a broken taillight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(POLICE CAR SIRENS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
LEMON: Welcome back to our live coverage, Cops Under Fire, here with me police experts from around the country answering your questions and from our studio audience and you at home. There's a question of just now that said, do you think the protests around the country are helping or hurting? What do you guys think?
LIM: Hurting.
WALL: Hurting.
LEMON: Why?
WALL: It's inflaming people and it's not -- it's hurting the dialogue. We're not really talking about the issues. What we're doing is we're talking about the emotions.
LEMON: Helping or hurting, audience?
CROWD: Helping.
LEMON: Helping. Why do say -- why do you say helping? You said -- you did this why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is people's form of dialogue. That's the whole issue that people feel like their voices have not been heard until now.
LEMOM: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a greater conversation than -- decades -- for decades. We've not had any sort of real -- and the fact that people are expressing their emotion. Why -- yes, it is an emotional thing, but we should be letting that out, we should be putting it out there in some form or other and the fact that it is a protest and it's been peaceful is beautiful.
KLINGER: That -- we have no -- no disagreement with you about the peaceful part. The part that we're concerned about is the people that are going out of control, hurting cops, burning places down, so on and so forth. That's what my concern is.
LEMON: Well, go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They can't ruin the whole --
LEMON: Seconds?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You had 60,000 people in New York City and you had this incident on the Brooklyn Bridge. That's all I'm hearing about. And that's some two or three days later. But what about the ones that were there, that were expressing themselves peacefully?
KLINGER: We have no problem with that, ma'am.
LEMON: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But we're focusing on those --
WALL: And cops would say the same thing. We're out there vast majority doing our job and never had a problem like one incident and it all blows up.
LEMON: Lets' get this all --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK. So, race, how much do you believe race plays into this? Right? Do you think race plays into -- right? 100 percent you guys say that, OK. Do you have a question about race? What was it Mojeh? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. So, in light of the one black officer not
being here today, I think that blacks are scrutinized more in the media, the judicial system and law enforcement. So, my question is, if black police officer's patrolled mostly black neighborhoods, do you think that would make a difference?
KLINGER: What I can say the research shows in terms of use of force at least the answer is no, believe it or not. The first studies on the use of deadly force so, were conducted by a gentleman by the name of James Fife, and unfortunately, Jim passed, several years ago. What he was able to do is look at all the uses of deadly force by NYPD officers in the early 1970s. They found something very interesting, black officers were more likely to shoot than white officers. Burt then what he did, he looked at two other things, where did they work and where did they live. And what he found out is once you control for where an officer works and where an officer lives, because many officers -- excuse me, many police shootings happen off duty then the race effect goes away. So the black officers and white officers confronted with the same situation shoot at about the same rate. Similarly in St. Louis, I've looked at every officer involved shooting for the decade that ended in 2012 -- 2003 to 2012. About a third of the cops in St. Louis are black. About a third of the shooters in St. Louis are black. And so what we -- what this suggests at least quite strongly is that police officers, black, white, Hispanic, male, female, respond to the threat that is presented to them.
LEMON: Do you guys talk about this -- amongst -- each other as it part of your training, race...
KLINGER: Sure.
LEMON: Perception?
KLINGER: Absolutely.
HERSHEY: The Houston police department puts cultural diversity classes on all the time in-service classes for officers.
LEMON: And they are mandatory.
HERSHEY: Yeah, and it's mandatory training.
LEMON: Go ahead. Do you have a question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In light of what you're saying, though, if we did have black officers and black communities, would there be more respect? Would there be a better understanding between the community and police force instead of this us versus them mentality that community has now.
LEMON: Why is there us versus them mentality?
HERSHEY: I want to make a comment on the stat you put up earlier, the number of white officers versus black officers. To answer your question, we need more black officers. We don't have enough to put them in all the neighborhoods that you're talking about. LEMON: They said it's hard -- is that so -- is it hard to find black
officers?
HERSHEY: A lot of them don't apply and the ones -- we do -- in Houston we do have a fairly diverse police department. I just think that nationally, there -- it's just hard to get that many that want to be cops.
BRUNTRAGER: And Don, can I --
LEMON: Why us versus them?
BRUNTRAGER: Recruitment is a huge issue. And I know because I represent the same as Police Officers Association and the department itself is constantly recruiting in order to make sure that you have a diverse academy class and if you just -- you can't get people to apply.
LEMON: Olivia, where is Olivia. There she is, right here. Olivia, you want it -- do you have a question, you said, do you believe elevate the police presence, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, so, do you believe elevated police president --presence in low-income communities is a necessity and if so, why or is it more motivated by racial stereotyping or prejudice?
LEMON: Does it hurt or help to have more presence there.
HERSHEY: I think it's good for everybody. For the police officers and the people that live there. It creates an officer safety issue or an officer feels a little more comfortable getting out of his car and walking in, being more interactive with -- I worked for the first six years in Houston in third war Houston, Texas.
LEMON: So, -- now my question, do you think -- do you think there's a race problem when it comes to police? Do you guys feel that? These people most of them here are saying there is. Do you believe that?
LIM: You know I don't think there's a race problem so much it's an understanding maybe different cultures. I mean, races -- Hispanic kid shot me but that doesn't mean that I don't like Hispanic kids, I was helped raised by a Hispanic lady. It's all matter that -- we get stuck with -- what like (inaudible) out there. We have to train officers to -- you know, prepare for the worse and hope for the best. Because, it's nearly you showed up here. Half of you guys looked at it and was thinking, I'd shot after but, after the effect what are we supposed to do? It's expectation that people want us to get shot before we do anything? I've been there. It freaking hurts men. I don't want to be shot first.
LEMON: I know, we're running up against clock, but I have to ask you, do you think -- I had a question from someone that said, why doesn't it get covered when someone white gets shot?
WALL: Yeah. Well, I will just gonna say the media plays a big part in this. Our experience in Houston if we had a huge SWAT call-up be out all night long and at the end of it, the media is there and says did anybody get shot? No. We used tactics, we use equipment, whatever...
LEMON: Yeah.
WALL: We took the suspect in without being hurt and -- well, it didn't make the news at all.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We've learned we can all do a better job when understanding each other; we should continue having these conversations. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, appreciate it.
(APPLAUSE)
LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. Good night.
