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Pakistan School Attack; Manhunt in Pennsylvania; Taliban Kill School Children; Cosby Interviewed

Aired December 16, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Here we go. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me.

I want to begin with this picture here. Young boys, young girls sitting in their classes today, wearing crisp, white shirts, sweaters, got their ties. And in a moment, their lives change forever.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Oh, the anger. So many parents are devastated. Suicide bombers scaled the walls of this school. And hours later, more than 140 people are dead, most of them are children. This all played out today in Pakistan, in the north part of the country, relatively close to the border here, as you can see, with Afghanistan. And this is where Taliban militants attacked this school, a place where most of the students are the sons and daughters of army personnel. The Pakistani Taliban has claimed responsibility for this attack. They said the killings were revenge for a recent offensive by the Pakistani military aimed at clearing out militants.

President Obama has reacted strongly today saying, in part, quote, "by targeting students and teachers in this heinous attack, terrorists have once again shown their depravity."

I want to bring in Tim Craig. He is "The Washington Post" Pakistan bureau chief. He joins me from Islamabad.

And so, Tim, let me just begin with more of the details. We're hearing that these attackers blew up a car to divert attention. They stormed the school shouting "God is great" and apparently a 14-year-old boy told us one of the attackers said, "a lot of the children are under benches, kill them." What are you hearing?

TIM CRAIG, PAKISTANI BUREAU CHIEF, "WASHINGTON POST": Yes, that's sort of what we're hearing here is that, you know, it's just -- I've been doing this job for -- coming to Pakistan in and out and we've covered a lot of these tragedies, a lot of terrorist attacks. You know, for a while they were happening every month here, but nothing can compare to what happened today in Pakistan and across the country and across the world is just horror that, you know, the gunmen storm the school. Initially we were worried that there were hostages, they were going to take hostages. But it appeared that they weren't interested in hostage taking, they were just interested in killing. And they killed more than 130 students, many teenagers, as well as at least seven faculty members in a span of over about three or four hours. BALDWIN: You know, when you think about the Pakistan, I was reading

this piece, you think about Pakistan and one of their, you know, enemies number one has been India, though it looks like this enemy is from within the Pakistani Taliban. Can you tell me how powerful this group is?

CRAIG: Well, the group, they don't really -- they don't really have a lot of support within Pakistan. They've always sort of been a fringe element that sort of rallied in the aftermath of September 11th when Pakistan began aligning more with the U.S. and trying to combat terrorism in the aftermath of September 11th. And they have carried out since then horrific attacks across the country, predominantly targeting Pakistan military officials and soldiers. Thousands of soldiers have been killed in this (INAUDIBLE) conflict. But today, they took it to a whole new level by targeting the children of these military officers and soldiers.

And what they really -- they may have sort of really crossed the line in terms of public opinion here. (INAUDIBLE) Pakistanis in general have become sort of immune to violence, you know? This is a country where terrorism plays out daily across the country. But today, you sort of sense something different. You sense people from Karachi, Lahore, the northwestern part of the country just reacting with disbelief. How could this happen in this country? And what really has become, this is one of the worst school shootings anywhere in the world in known history. This isn't just a Pakistan issue, this is a world tragedy at this moment.

BALDWIN: It is absolutely a heinous act. And it sounds like your words echo what we've heard from Peter Bergen, CNN national security analyst, who likened this to being perhaps as pivotal to Pakistan's national security as 9/11. He wrote, "the Pakistani Taliban are not a bunch of Henry Kissingers in waiting, eager to make a deal, but rather led by fanatical religious zealots willing to send half a dozen suicide attackers to kill scores of children."

Tim, do you see this as this turning point within Pakistan? How would this affect national security where you are?

CRAIG: I do think that, you know, Pakistanis in general view this as their 9/11. Walking around, even in Islamabad today when this was unfolding, you saw people staring at the televisions with that sort of blank stare of disbelief that we saw in the United States on September 11th. Now the question is, is what can be done about it? You know, the Pakistani military is already engaged in a pretty substantial operation against these militants. And they're fighting a war on their own soil, which is a little different - it's a lot different than actually fighting a war, you know, abroad. So they have to go about this methodically and they're trying to sort of deal with this as best as they can. But how do they elevate this to the next level to sort of try to crush this problem for good? And I think everyone believes this will continue to be a year's long struggle. This is not going to be resolved easily, it's not going to be resolved soon, and this conflict will go on here for probably many years to come, still.

BALDWIN: Just hearing you say that, too, that this is Pakistan's 9/11. Tim Craig, Pakistan bureau chief for "The Washington Post," I really appreciate your reporting. We're going to stay in close contact with you there in Islamabad.

You know, unfortunately, school children are a frequent target of the Taliban. Of course, who could forget Malala Yousafzai, the teenager girl who was singled out and shot in the head back in October of 2012. She survived and just last week became the youngest person to receive the Nobel Peace Prize for her work to promote education and girls' rights in Pakistan and all around the world. And so when she heard about the news today in Pakistan, she reacted to the Taliban attack saying this, "I am heartbroken by the senseless and cold-blooded act of terror in Peshawar that is unfolding before us. Innocent children in their school have no place in horror such as this." She also released this on camera statement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MALALA YOUSAFZAI, SURVIVED 2012 ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT BY TALIBAN: We stand with all those families and all those children who are injured right now and who are suffering through this big trauma. And now it is time that we unite. And I call upon the international community, leaders in Pakistan, all political parties, and everyone that we should stand up together and fight against terrorism. And we should make sure that every child gets safe and quality education.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And now to this massive manhunt. It is still underway in Pennsylvania where police say this former Marine went on this killing rampage. Bradley William Stone is suspected of killing six people, his ex-wife, five of their relatives. The victims include his ex-wife's mother, and sister-in-law. And when you look at the map here, you can see investigators say the shooting happened in three separate locations. This is just northwest of Philadelphia. CNN's Miguel Marquez is following this for us from Harleysville, Pennsylvania.

And the question, Miguel, is, do police have a clue where he might be?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, he may be, in fact, be dead. Local officials and local affiliates here are reporting that a body has been found near Pennsburg, where he was last seen just after he dropped off his children yesterday afternoon, and they are checking into those reports. So this may be something that is coming to an end. Officers and authorities here saying that the possibility of a suicide is something that they were looking into from the very beginning. They have been going through the Pennsburg area block by block, yard by yard, trying to figure out if he is either hiding in that area or had killed himself in that area. And that is something that they are following up on now.

Just an awful, awful situation here with schools have been closed today, many of them on suspend or different type schedules to -- because of the search going on throughout this area. They thought that he may have been spotted last night in an attempted carjacking. That turned out not to be the case. Not to be a good sighting. So they've not come up with a very good idea of where he is. But this latest possibility may mean that we may all be back in this room soon to hear from authorities about whether or not Mr. Bradley Stone has, in fact, been found dead.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: Well, we will standby for that news if, in fact, that news breaks.

But, again, I mean the why, the answer to the question why. We know police were pointing to a domestic dispute. I know at one point in time he actually had his two daughters with him. There was some sort of custody issue with his ex-wife. Tell me more about that.

MARQUEZ: Well, we have fairly sketchy information. There are neighbors who have said that the ex-wife had drug issues. That he had alcohol issues. The he had served in Iraq in 2008. The he may have suffered from PTSD. It is not clear that any of these things are true or that any of these things contributed to what happened. It is certainly an unbelievable, unimaginable the extent to which this individual went through to not only kill his ex-wife, but to kill his ex-mother-in- law, the grandmother-in-law, his ex-sister-in-law, her husband, a 14- year-old daughter, amazingly enough, and also shot their 17-year-old son. He is still alive. He took his two daughters to a family friend's home, dropped them off. So at least they, the saving grace is that that 17-year-old is clinging to life in serious but stable condition and his two daughters are, at least, alive. He also has a new wife and a daughter who are also fine, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Horrendous. Miguel Marquez, keep us posted. We'll be watching and waiting for that news conference if, in fact, officials confirm his death. Miguel Marquez for me in Pennsylvania. Thank you, sir.

Just ahead, a reporter breaks down in this chilling moment of television when she learns the identity of one of the victims in the Sydney cafe attack. All of this as we learn one of the cafe employees died a hero.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATALIE BAR, SEVEN NETWORK AUSTRALIA: Katrina Dawson was the sister of a prominent (INAUDIBLE) Sandy (ph) Dawson, who's -- Channel Seven (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A sister of one of our Channel Seven's staff.

BAR: Sandy Dawson, who I know and I have friends who know -- she was a mother of three children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: My goodness. Can you imagine? That was Natalie Bar of Seven Network Australia, a seasoned reporter, overcome, clearly, by the grief and the shock, learning that one of the victims in that hostage siege in Sydney was the sister of a Seven Network employee. Just one day after that horrific standoff there in Sydney, 16 plus

hours of just terror, another terror strike has claimed the lives of a number of young students who were targeted by gunmen and hidden explosives while at school. Taliban militants in Pakistan, out on a mission to kill the children in today's attacks, claiming the lives of at least 141 people, mostly between the ages of 12 and 16.

So what is leading to this rise in terror? Let's discuss this with my next guest. J.M. Berger, he's an analyst on Islamic extremism, editor at intelwire.com and he's publishing his new book, "ISIS: The State of Terror." Also with me, Mubin Shaikh, an ex-jihadist turned counterterrorism operative.

So, gentlemen, that you so much to both of you for coming on.

J.M. BERGER, EDITOR, INTELWIRE.COM: Thank you.

MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER JIHADIST: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Mubin, let me just begin with you and your personal story. I know at age 19 you say you were swept away by militant jihadi culture. You know, even meeting with members of the Taliban in Pakistan. How did they inspire you?

SHAIKH: Yes, this was 1995 in Queta (ph), in Pakistan. This is what later became the regular Taliban, if you will, the Afghan Taliban. And then later on, there was a split between the larger Taliban group into TTP, or the Pakistani Taliban.

You know, I got swept up into it in 1995. I was young, adventurous. I was looking for, you know, the romanticized ideals of the Muslim fighters of the old days. And I think this is the same thing that catches a lot of individuals. You have, you know, people who dress in beards, robes, they wear the costume of religion, but it's the furthest thing from it.

BALDWIN: Costume, that's an interesting word you chose. I'm going to loop back to you.

But, J.M., we're also now getting word from -- we're hearing from the spokesperson from the Afghan Taliban condemning this attack in Pakistan, saying, and I quote, this is from the spokesperson, "deliberate killing of innocent people, women and children is against the Islamic principles. Every Muslim organization and government should consider this." Mubin referenced the split of the Taliban. Can you - can you explain the differences in factions? Why is this significant here?

BERGER: Well, there's a lot of splintering going on in the jihadist moments generally right now.

SHAIKH: Well, the Pakistani --

BALDWIN: This is for J.M.

BERGER: And there's also -- sorry. There's a lot of splintering going on right now in the Pakistani Taliban in particular. There's a lot of division in the jihadist movement generally, which has been sparked to some extent by ISIS, the Islamic State, and its embrace of really kind of indiscriminate violence. So we are seeing a little bit of differentiation among different groups on the question of what kind of violence is acceptable.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Mubin, jump in.

SHAIKH: Yes, no, I just wanted to say that, you know, the Afghan Taliban are, if I can say not as bad as the Pakistani Taliban. This is, you know, the latter group is a whole other creature. As you can see from the --

BALDWIN: Define not as bad.

SHAIKH: Well, you know, they're -- the Afghan Taliban's war is over what they, you know, see as western invaders. To them, you know, the fight, it's not globalized, they're not really looking to bring the war here, if you will. I mean if you think of the Times Square bomber, you know, that was again Pakistani Taliban, right? Like that's a whole other category of evil, I think.

The Afghan Taliban are different. They are different. You can actually negotiate with them and governments do negotiate with them. So it is necessary to kind of draw a distinction. It's not -- they're not all the same.

BALDWIN: But then why, J.M., with this attack, I mean this was apparently retaliation, you know, against the government. But why target children? Why a soft target like a school?

BERGER: Well, there's a history of attacks on children in Pakistan and in Afghanistan for that matter. You know, there you have objections to the kind of education that people are getting. In this case, I believe the school was connected to the government. You know, maybe you can clarify that for me, but I believe there's a, you know, this was a school where the graduates would take part in military or government activity then, so that was part of the justification for targeting it.

BALDWIN: I got it.

And, Mubin, back to your point about this romantization (ph) and wearing of the costumes. I know that, you know, let's be clear, you denounced jihadi extremism after studying Islam in Syria. How are these militants using the Koran to justify these brutal, heinous attacks and killings?

SHAIKH: Well, you know, I'm glad to hear finally that people are understanding we need to combat the ideology of these groups and I encourage your viewers to look up this group called --

BALDWIN: How do we do that?

SHAIKH: Well, first of all, look up this group called Khawarij. It's spelled k-h-a-w-a-r-i-j. The Khawarijs are a deviant group that existed in the earliest times of Islam, where the prophet, peace be upon him, condemned them, referred to them as dogs of hellfire, the worst of creatures. And there was specifically, you know, defined by the use of the Koran, that the Koran, they would cite the Koran, but it would not pass their throats, or they would cite the Koran and take from it that which it did not say or mean. So this is something known in the Islamic tradition. And this is exactly what we're seeing today. These are Khawarij groups.

BALDWIN: J.M. Berger and Mubin Shaikh, thank you both for joining me.

Coming up next, Tyler Perry talks to CNN about the rape allegations against Bill Cosby as the comedian's wife rips the media. We'll talk live with a reporter who just interviewed Cosby.

Plus, investigators say a teenager killed himself, but his mother says no, he was lynched, and there are findings at the scene that are definitely raising eyebrows. CNN's special report ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: As the number of accusers claiming Bill Cosby drugged and/or sexually assaulted them continues to grow, another Hollywood titan is speaking out about the allegations dogging the legendary entertainer. Film director, producer, actor Tyler Perry was asked by Don Lemon to comment about these accusations facing Cosby. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TYLER PERRY, FILM DIRECTOR, PRODUCER, ACTOR: I will tell you this, I will tell you this, this is what I'll say about it, the only thing I'm going to say about it.

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, sir.

PERRY: If the allegations are true, it's a horrible thing. If the allegations are not true, it's a horrible thing. That's all I can say about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Well, there was a news reporter who had been trying to get Cosby to comment -- you know, join the club of many people who have been trying to get Cosby to comment about these allegations -- now has caught, though, the iconic entertainer's ire. Cosby says this reporter, freelance journalist Stacy Brown, who was working for "The New York Post," his words, "duped him" into thinking the reporter worked for the black press. Cosby also claims that he did not know the conversation was being -- was on the record.

Cosby's attorney immediately rushed out this statement, which says in part, "Mr. Brown did not indicate that he was interviewing Mr. Cosby for publication, did not say that he was reporting for 'The New York Post'." Goes on, "and did not tell Mr. Cosby that the conversation was being recorded. In a discussion of journalistic standards, Mr. Brown failed to adhere to the most basic standards of his profession."

So, joining me now is that reporter, Stacy Brown. Stacy, nice to have you on. You have seen what this attorney has said.

Your response, sir.

STACY BROWN, JUST SPOKE WITH COSBY ON PHONE: There is no way that he did not know that this was for publication. And, quite frankly, him and I have had a discussion in the past and it was pretty much the same situation, with "The New York Post." But I will say this, that if he had any objections to anything being published, then he should not have spoken to a reporter.

BALDWIN: I mean you clearly, what, identified yourself on the phone?

BROWN: Identified - yes. And before I could say - you know, I said, this is Stacy - and before I could say Brown, he says, I know who you are. I remember you. And we went off -- on from there.

BALDWIN: Can you also clear --

BROWN: And it was -- let me say this, too, right quick.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BROWN: If it was off the record, then I would have - I would have loved to have gotten a whole lot more than what he gave me. But no one ever said off the record, and I certainly would not go off the record under those circumstances.

BALDWIN: Gotcha. Can you also, Stacy, clear something up for me because, you know, it was all over this film conversation you had with Mr. Cosby and what he was saying about the black press. So let's just walk back a step and a half. When you, when you, you know, half, you know, had to identify yourself, he knew who you were, and you were asking the question, you know, about black media, how did you phrase the question for him to respond the way he did?

BROWN: Well, again, I introduced myself, but he cut it off. But I said to him, I said, you know, "The Washington Informer," who I also write for, and the National Newspaper Publishers Association, which is a 200-member black press -- black newspaper association, has treated him fairly. And, in fact, "The Washington Informer" had published two stories that used his fans and their response to the allegation. They were pro-Bill Cosby. And he -- he said he appreciated that very much. He said he would have his team treat me like royalty because of it. I told him that wasn't necessary and he continued with that. But then he went on to say that he expects that the black press would report, basically, his word was neutral. And what he was asking for was fairness.

Now, there's been a lot of talk about that statement. However, I don't agree with what a lot of people are saying about it, that he is actually looking for the black press to do him favors. I don't believe that that's what he was trying to convey.

BALDWIN: But to be clear, the comment about the black press didn't, poof, come out of, you know, nowhere. You led him because he knew the other publication you'd been working for. And so, you know, he knew, in a sense, that you were talking about black media. I just wanted to be crystal clear on that because I think a lot of that has been taken out of context.

BROWN: It has been taken out of context. No, he knew that I worked for black media. He knew that he was talking with a black reporter.

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

Let me ask you this because the other -- really the news item today on this whole story, that now we've heard from Camille Cosby, Bill Cosby's wife, via this statement, absolutely defending her husband and ripping members of the media. So this is what she says in part. Let me just read part of this for you.

"There appears to be no vetting of my husband's accusers before stories are published or aired and accusation is published and immediately goes viral." She goes on, "none of us will ever want to be in the position of attacking a victim. But the question should be asked, who is the victim?"

What's your response to that?

BROWN: Ii understand where she's coming from. I heard someone earlier today liken her to Jerry Sandusky's wife, which I think might be a little unfair. We don't know what happened. But I understand where she's coming from because so many are coming out and so many are saying that he did this. However, the other side of that coin is that we really haven't heard from Mr. Cosby, from him directly. We've gotten statements from Martin Singer and his team that say that most of the allegations they've denied. Some of them they have not denied and we should keep that in mind, too. So in all, for fairness, we need both sides of the story.

BALDWIN: Yes, we do.

BROWN: And she's saying that. Yes, she's saying that we're kind of running wild here. And some - I think in some instances, as a whole, the media is. But a lot of that is because this man is not saying anything.

BALDWIN: Well, I'm wondering if we have heard now from Camille Cosby, maybe the next step is a man himself. I can think of a few people who'd like to talk to him. Stacy Brown, thank you for coming on.

BROWN: Sure.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, CNN's special investigation. This mother in North Carolina was told her teenage son killed himself. But after discovering a number of bizarre items at the scene, she says, he didn't commit suicide. She says he was lynched.

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