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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

More Discussion of CIA Torture Report; Another Police Shiooting Examined; Details of a Suspected Lynching

Aired December 16, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: So these numbers 13 years later, in an environment where we're worried about things like Christmas shopping and the decline in the stock market, to me, tell me more about what we would have said 13 years ago than even about what we say today.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Is it fair to say that that emotional response to that situation put the CIA in a position where it was not completely prepared to do what it was being asked to do, and that that lead to mistakes?

MUDD: Sure, I think the CIA response to this indicates that, and I would agree with that. The intelligence system as anybody -- as a traditional intelligence officer will tell you, includes three basic components. You collect intelligence that spies in the field, you disseminate in, that's like -- that you send it to places like the Department of State, the White House and the Pentagon. And then people like me take all these stuff out there. Intercepted communications, information from spies and put it together into a narrative, into a story.

Take a hard left -- in 2002 when we captured our first detainee, that's Abu Zubaydah. Now in addition to those responsibilities, you create secret prisons overseas and you start interrogating people. It was an area that we weren't familiar with back then.

CUOMO: The idea of Dick Cheney coming out and saying I would do it all again. It was all fine, that is part of the political fight that's going on now because of this initial report came out. But let me ask you, at no time, regardless of whether or not the DOJ said it was OK or not, people in and around the program didn't feel like this is too much what we're doing. This is torture what we're doing no matter what we're being told.

None of that common sense hit anybody?

MUDD: Excuse me, common sense?

CUOMO: Yes.

MUDD: You have -- majority of the American people still saying this is OK. We went to the people who determine what U.S. statute say. They were clear, I personally, spoke to members on both sides of the aisle in the Congress. They told me either OK or is this it? In other words, aren't you doing more? The mood of the population is reflected by the American Security Service, the mood of the population is, "This is OK. This is more than OK, and by the way, if we ever see another jumper from the 100th floor in a building in New York, it's on you."

You want to know what that's like, Chris? We were dealt a hand of deuces and we ran the table in the casino. I thought it was great work.

CUOMO: I saw the jumpers that day, I understand the emotionalism of the situation. There's no question about that, but that's also not perhaps the best mind to be making decisions, right? We don't want to act at our most emotion...

MUDD: It's the only mind we had, dude.

CUOMO: The DOJ may have said it was OK, but you didn't feel that anything that was going on was over the line that was actual torture by any other definition.

MUDD: No, I felt the measures were tough. I knew that we would pay some day by this sort of water (inaudible) at the C.I., we talked about it all the time. We talked about what we call then game, that is we begin conversations early on with the White House saying when the prisoners that we hold no longer have intelligence value, what do we do with them? We are not jailers, we are interrogators, we are intelligence professionals.

And we knew part of that endgame, personally would be judgments about us and judgments that history would make without living in the time. The biggest problem here is not documentary evidence that's reviewed by a congressional committee that never spoke with people like me, it is trying to relive the time in saying how when you're told by the President, the Vice President, the National Security Council, the Department of Justice and both side of the aisle in the Congress. How can you relive that moment and say what you did was wrong? We tried to reflect the will of the people.

CUOMO: So, you're saying that your friends run away from you in the aftermath. And because -- there are two questions. One, is why did you do it? You've answer that. The next one is did you tell people what you were doing? Did they know? Right now you've got politicians saying you either didn't tell us or you went farther than you said you were going, is that true?

MUDD: I think -- let's take those two questions. We went down to the Congress and I was among them. Again, it's not a very complicated briefing. I've done a million briefings in my life. Here's 10 techniques. We use flexible walls, we use choke holds, we use open- fingered slaps, we use sleep deprivation. I know it's brutal but it's pretty simple, I ran down a list, this is what we do.

There's a couple of things happening here. First, why didn't you ask the people who ran the committees. Porter Goss, the former chairman of the committee, later the CIA director said hey, "Nobody in this investigation asked me, a former Congress and I was the chairman of the committee, yes, they told me. So we could have resolved this question by simply asking the people who were there.

CUOMO: So you're saying that the people who needed to know knew and there were no blind spots about the CIA. The last question is this then, you're in the report. And you are used as a part of the CIA machine that was spinning what this program was about to the media to make it something that it wasn't. Is that a fair charge? Were you a spinmeister for the CIA selling us on a program we didn't really understand?

MUDD: Well, let me put you on hot seat, Chris. How long is New Day been on the air?

CUOMO: About a yearend change.

MUDD: You guys doing OK?

CUOMO: We're doing better than that, Mudd, we're doing better than that.

MUDD: Why are you spinning me? Why are you spinning me?

CUOMO: That's the truth?

MUDD: I believed in the program. I believed we were crushing Al- Qaeda. We were crushing them with human source operations, with signals intercepts, with working with foreign security services. The paramilitary, military operation in Afghanistan against that Taliban was stunningly successful. And I told the media, I didn't cherry pick them, ABC, CBS, NBC, New York Times, Washington Post, LA Time. I told them all. We are crushing it.

Nobody in the report ever asked me, I stand by what that report says. Hell, yes. I sold what we did, I believed it.

And by the way, here's a dirty secret, I was right. We did crush them.

CUOMO: Philip Mudd, thank you very much for coming forward with a candid response...

MUDD: Thank you.

CUOMO: ... to theses questions. Appreciate you taking the opportunity.

MUDD: Sure. Thank you.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Wow. Fascinating discussion there with Chris Cuomo and Phil Mudd. Thank you.

And other news we're following, you're about to see some surveillance video of a man in Walmart moments before he was shot and killed by police, is carrying an air rifle that he pulled off a store shelf while shopping. The police shot him on site after receiving a 911 call, and the grand jury did not indict the police in that shooting. But there is a new surveillance tape that some say shows the cops are trying to cover tracks in this shooting.

We're going to play it for you next, stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Let's turn to another questionable police killing and that's triggering outrage and protest. A man shot and killed by police in an Ohio Walmart while holding an air rifle. Just a short time ago, his family announced, they filed a federal lawsuit against the police and the store.

Take a look here. This surveillance video from August shows John Crawford picking up the air rifle off the shelf of Walmart's moment before his death. Shortly after, the shooting police interrogated Crawford's girlfriend, you can see it right here. Crawford's family says the aggressive questioning proves the police were trying to cover up their mistake.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had a weapon and -- you pick him up, he has your car or something. You understand that we're investigating a (inaudible), you lied to me and you might be on your way to jail. So I want to every clear about this...

BROWN: I swear to God. I swear to God, all I did was (inaudible) with John and our family, on everything I love. (inaudible)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did you get this gun?

BROWN: Sir, I don't know. I swear to God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: In September, a grand jury decided against charging the officers involved in that shooting.

CNN's Ana Cabrera is following this story. Closely, Ana, Crawford's family is arguing that Walmart is liable for having the gun on the shelf in the first place. Tell us about what they're saying in this lawsuit?

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the family wants accountability. They have been for, nearly four months now searching for justice in their son's death, John Crawford who is inside that Walmart, was with his girlfriend. They were shopping for materials to take to a barbecue. Items for smores is what his girlfriend says when all of these unfolded. It became a tragedy on both sides.

Police admit that there was no bad guy here, but the family says officers did not do their due diligence when they responded to that Walmart. I want to take you back to that day. It was August 5th where you saw that surveillance video of John Crawford walking through the store, carrying what appear to be a rifle. And that's what a customer said in his 911 call. That this man carrying a rifle and pointing it at customers, so when police responded, they say they confronted Crawford, he failed to drop the gun, fail to obey their commands and that's why the open fired.

Police believe that perhaps because he was African-American -- excuse me, the attorney for the family believes perhaps because he was African-American that the police came in with a mindset that he was already dangerous and they never gave them a chance when they confronted him.

So that's the gist of it Pam. But family wants' justice, they want accountability. Listen to the father who spoke today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN CRAWFORD SR., CRAWFORD's FATHER: I'm still pursuing justice because to me that is justice. You have to be held accountable. You don't get a pass because you have a side arm and a shield.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Again, a grand jury, pretty much cleared these officers to not indict them on any charges, and we do know that the Department of Justice is also opened its own investigations looking into the circumstances surrounding the death of John Crawford III. But we'll have to wait and see moving forward what really happens. It's one of several cases now sparking action around the country calling for police reforms and accountability, Pam.

BROWN: So in this case, the family putting the blame on police and on Walmart, tell us what police have said in their defense?

CABRERA: Police essentially have said that they responded with it as much information as they had and their actions were accordingly. So they received a 911 call from a customer in the store who witnessed a man with what appear to be a rifle. At the time they were responding, they did not know that it was a BB gun. They did not know he had pick it up off the shelf. They were under the assumption he had dropped that gun into the store with an intention to do harm.

Now we have reached back out to police given the new developments. They have not responded to our request for comment for further defense of, you know, what happened in this circumstance. But based on the police report that we've read through from the records of what happened that day in police questioning, that's their story.

BROWN: OK. Ana Cabrera, thank you very much.

And let's get to the Legal View now. CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin, and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson joining me live. Great to have you here with us.

Joey, I'm going to start with you. As we saw on the video, the police interrogated Crawford's girlfriend shortly after they shooting. We heard the officers say, "You might be on your way to jail." That family is calling this interrogation proof of a cover up, basically saying that they were trying to coerce her to say something.

So what is your reaction to it Joey, did police do anything illegal or against police protocol?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, here's the problem, Pam, even not only with regard to the interrogation but to the incident itself. I think it just calls out for a process which has to be fair, open and reasonable. Now, police have a very difficult job, Pam, I get that. I think we all get that, we understand that. But whatever process we have that evaluates that police conduct, that determines whether or not their actions were reasonable, and there was an imminent threat, has to be a process that we can all rely upon.

And when there's repeated no indictment, no indictment, no indictment by an officer, it just really begs the question of is there ever going to be an indictment. And will there ever be a scenario where a police are found to be accountable for their actions and so, I don't know. I wasn't in that grand jury, I'm not sure what occurred. I know that there 15 member of the grand jury. And of that 15, 12 have to conclude that there is enough evidence, probable cause to believe that a crime was committed and that an officer committed it. But it just raises troubling questions and certainly to the issue of the interrogation, police use all types of forms of interrogation.

And to be fair to the officer, we have the benefit at now time site. He didn't know at that time that the gun was taken from that particularly area, but it's certainly looks like he's getting her. And it's so troubling to watch as she's saying please, oh my goodness, I swear. It's just -- it's really problematic on multiple levels.

BROWN: Yes. She's visibly emotional as we see right here in the video. She's crouching down in her chair, putting her hands over her face. So I want to ask you Sunny, does that make a difference to you that the interrogator in this case didn't realized that Crawford picked up the gun at the store? Does that change the calculus for you?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well it does. It's surprising to me though that -- he didn't know that during the investigation -- during the interrogations rather, Pam, because bottom line is, you know, the interrogation took place after the shooting. So you would think that some sort of preliminary investigation would have taken place including the fact that they would have look at the gun, Walmart would have realized that it was one of -- it was a stock gun at Walmart. And would have also quite frankly realized that it wasn't a real gun, that it was a BB gun. And, so that is surprising to me.

But, you know, in terms of an interrogation, I actually don't see anything improper when I look at the interrogation out of context because during an interrogation, sort of all bets are off as long as, you know, you've been read your rights, or as long as you understand what the -- what the rules are. Officers are allowed to lie to people they're interrogating and so they have wide latitude there.

But to Joey's point, you know, I think the problem is becoming and we're seeing it in the protest and we're seeing it in so many of the cases across our country, when you hear about a no indictment case and you see what appears to be -- just a very quick decision being made by the officers here, I mean we're talking about under four seconds, they shoot this man. It just doesn't really give, I think the public a lot of confidence in the police or confidence in the process.

BROWN: All right. And we know in this case in particular, the family has now filed a lawsuit. Interesting to hear both of your perspectives. Thank you very much, Sunny Hostin and Joey Jackson.

JACKSON: Thank you, Pam.

BROWN: And meantime, authorities in North Carolina ruled a black teenager's death of suicide, but now the mother of Lennon Lacy believes her son was lynched and the FBI is investigating. His family tells us their story, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: When the black teenager was found hanged in North Carolina, local authorities ruled his death a suicide. But his mother believes he was lynched. And now the FBI is investigating. CNN's Victor Blackwell talked with the teenager's family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLAUDIA LACY, MOTHER OF LENNON LACY: I looked for him and I don't see him. I listen for him and I don't hear him.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The last time Claudia Lacy saw and heard her 17-year old son Lennon Lacy was around the time he snapped a selfie. The caption, "Last night pic before the game." Lennon was a high school student in Bladenboro, North Carolina and a lineman on the football team focused on a professional football career.

C. LACY: He was a physically fit 17-year-old, very, very athletic down to his school, everything he joined.

BLACKWELL: But Lennon had asthma and had to exercise outside at night after the temperature dropped. Something his family said he did often. Lennon headed out for a walk the night of August 28th, they never saw him alive again the next morning.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a black male (inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hanging from a swing?

UNDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible).

BLACKWELL: Lennon's body was found dangling, covered in fire ants in the center of a mobile home park.

PEIRRE LACY, BROTHER OF LENNON LACY: It's out in the open, there's trailers all around. People work, you know, around the clock these hours at the day, someone should have saw something but no one have seen anything.

C. LACY: It was unreal, it was like a dream. It was like I was not seeing what I was seeing ...

BLACKWELL: The state medical examiner's office declared Lennon's death a suicide. But Lennon's mother believes they're wrong.

C. LACY: He didn't do this to himself.

BLACKWELL: Do you believe your son was lynched?

C. LACY: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Pierre Lacy is Lennon's brother.

P. LACY: He may have either been strangled somewhere else and then placed there or he was hung there while people were around watching him die.

BLACKWELL: When questioned by state investigators, Lennon's mom said he'd been depressed because a relative had died recently. Lacy said she did not mean that he suffered from depression.

C. LACY: When you just lose someone close, you're going to be depressed, upset and mourning.

BLACKWELL: Lennon's family says he was focused on football and college and distracted by his ex-girlfriend. His mother says 17-year old Lennon had been dating a 31-year old white woman. The age of consent in North Carolina is 16. Still, some people in this small southern town did not like it. Lennon's mother did not like their dramatic age difference.

C. LACY: I was shocked, disappointed and I also initially told him how I felt. I was - I did not approve of it.

BLACKWELL: In the wake of his hanging, some wondered if he was killed because he was in an interracial relationship. Racial tension can often exist just below the surface. And here, it can break through. Local news covered a Ku Klux Klan rally in a nearby county just weeks before Lennon's body was found.

Are there people in this community who didn't like that...

C. LACY: I'm sure. Yes. Of course, of course.

BLACKWELL: ... a 17-year old, black male and the 31-year old white female?

A week after Lennon was buried, a teenager was arrested for desecrating his grave. Reverend William Barber leads the North Carolina conference of the NAACP.

WILLIAM BARBER, NC NAACP PRESIDENT: There are too many questions and it very well could be a lynching or stage matching, we don't know. But what we do know is there has to be a serious and full investigation of these matters.

BLACKWELL: The NAACP hired forensic pathologist Christina Roberts to review the case, including Dr. Deborah Radisch's autopsy completed for the state. Her first concern, basic physics. Lennon was 5 foot 9. The cross-bar of the swing set is seven-and-a-half feet off the ground. With no swings or anything else found at the scene that Lennon could have used according to the NAACP's review, how did he get up there?

P. LACY: His size, his stature does not add up to him being capable of can - I mean, just constructing all of this, alone, in the dark.

BLACKWELL: According to the police report, the caller, a 52-year-old woman was able to get the 207 pound teen down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do I need to try and get him down?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you can.

BLACKWELL: Then seconds later.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's coming down, I'm letting him down.

BLACKWELL: According to the NAACP review, Dr. Radisch also noted that she was not provided with photographs or dimensions of the swing set. Without this information, she would be unable to evaluate the ability to create the scenario. Lacy says she told state investigators the belts used to fashion the noose did not belong to Lennon.

LACY: I know every piece and every stick of clothes this child has. I buy them. I know.

BLACKWELL: The initial report from the local medical examiner, however, notes that the belts appeared to be dog leashes. According to the NAACP's review, Radisch said she thought some portion must be missing because there was no secondary cut in either belt, a cut that would have been made to take the body down.

And Lennon's family says he left home that night wearing size 12 Air Jordans, but he was found wearing these size 10-and-a-half Air Force Ones, shoes that were not with Lennon's body when he arrived at the medical examiner's office according to the NAACP review.

P. LACY: He's going to walk a quarter mile from his house in a pair of shoes that's two sizes, too small after he takes off his new pair of shoes. And this is a 17-year-old black kid with a brand new pair of Jordans on. He's going to just take those Jordans off and just get rid of them and put on some shoes that ain't -- that's not his, we don't know where he got them from, no laces in them, and continue to walk down this dirt road late at night to a swing set in the middle of a trailer park and hang himself?

BLACKWELL: And there are questions in the NAACP review about Lennon's death being ruled a suicide. Dr. Radisch noted that her determination of manner of death in this case as suicide was based on the information she was provided by law enforcement and the local medical examiner. She would have likely called the manner of death pending while awaiting toxicology and investigation, but the local medical examiner had already signed the manner of death as suicide.

However in the summary of the case written the day Lennon was found, the local medical examiner asked, "Did he hang self? Will autopsy tell us?" And left the conclusion on the manner of death pending.

We asked to interview Radisch who declared the death is suicide. Instead, a department spokesperson sent CNN a statement confirming the conversations between Roberts and Radisch in writing, "The comments that were released by the NAACP were a synopsis of the professional exchange between the NAACP's independently retained forensic pathologist and Dr. Radisch." Local police and state investigators declined to speak with CNN on camera for this story.

BARBER: We don't have confidence in this local group here to be able to carry out the depth level of the investigation that needs to be done.

BLACKWELL: Now, the FBI is reviewing the circumstances surrounding Lennon's death.

C. LACY: That's all I've asked for, what is due owe rightfully to me and my family. Justice. Prove to me what happened to my child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Victor Blackwell filed that report in the local police department who initially investigated Lennon Lacy's death has only 11 members. They called the North Carolina Bureau of Investigation to help out. And that agency did confirm to us it was investigating but had no further comment.

Well, thank you so much for watching, appreciate you're being here with us on this Tuesday. Wolf starts after a quick break, have a good day.

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