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Hackers: We'll Attack Theaters Showing Sony Film; American Alan Gross Freed from Cuban Prison; Mom Scolds Son on C-Span

Aired December 17, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: But there's also something else to keep in mind. You talk about, you know, the power of a cyber attack. If, in fact, North Korea is behind this, think about how this levels the playing field.

For so many decades North Korea's military has kind of been a joke. People haven't really taken their nuclear program that seriously. But if they have the capability to paralyze a major American company and cause this much destruction and fear in the United States, what kind of a message does that send to the rest of the world?

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Exactly right. You know, the other worrisome thing, in my mind, is that this could have a chilling effect on the way people make movies and what they decide to put into movies.

The "New York Times" interviewed Seth Rogen and asked him, you know, did you ever have a conversation with executives about maybe not putting in the assassination of Kim Jong-Un in your movie and Seth Rogen says "Nope, we're going to have it in." He was adamant that that should stay.

(CROSSTALK)

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: But they could have created a fictional character. They could have done that.

COSTELLO: Or maybe not assassinated.

STELTER: But on the other hand, if they had done that that gets into what you're saying -- self-censorship. That gets into the chilling effect.

LAURA SEGALL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I spoke to a security researcher and the first thing he said right as this was happening, he said Laurie, the millions they've lost and the millions they will lose from the fallout because he said this hack is very bad. They went in and they actually deleted a hard drive. He said this will cause self- censorship because it probably wouldn't have been worth it for them, you know. And they might not say, hey, we're going to censor this but these are going to discussed and that they're going to have to have behind closed doors.

I'll just say this. A precursory glance at the inbox of what came out of the Sony Pictures CEO -- this is a new type of violation. I mean these personal details that people are combing through that are readily available online -- can you imagine if your inbox for the last year was available for anybody to look at? This is a new type of robbery in this new digital era. And I think it's something we really are going to have to take seriously.

COSTELLO: Let me ask you this because I read this somewhere and I -- forgive me, I don't remember where. But the disseminators of this information being stolen from Sony, they were reticent to turn over the information because, you know, no real crime was being committed in their minds. But now that there's this terrorist threat from these hackers, can't they be forced to turn over where they're getting this information from?

SEGALL: I mean --

COSTELLO: I know we're not attorneys.

STELTER: Well, I'm thinking to myself these are coming from anonymous e-mail accounts -- right. And then reporters are getting these messages and they're getting links to other anonymous Web sites where these documents are dumped. I don't know how much of a digital trail is even accessible even under legal courses.

COSTELLO: Somebody knows somewhere, though. I mean some of these hackers are brilliant. They know what they're doing.

SEGALL: The way that they this works now, because you have something like the (inaudible) network where it's very difficult, where it actually scatters the servers where you're actually going on to find it. It's very difficult to say where this stems from.

I think the conversation everyone is having and what changed when they actually have a physical threat of terror is now this -- there's a different conversation as to when you're looking through those. If even you even look through those because through there's now a real physical threat.

COSTELLO: All right. We're going to have to leave it there. Thanks to all of you. Laurie Segall, Brian Stelter, Will Ripley, I appreciate it.

RIPLEY: Thank you.

COSTELLO: I'm back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: All right. I want to go back now to our breaking news out of Cuba. As I've been telling you all morning long, Alan Gross, a contractor for the American government, has been released after five years in a Cuban military hospital. He was arrested back in 2009. He was caught smuggling satellite equipment into Cuba. In exchange for Gross' release, a prisoner swap -- and this is where it gets controversial, or I should say one of the areas in which it gets controversial.

The American government has agreed to release three of the so-called Cuban Five -- that's a group of Cuban intelligence officials, Cuban spies -- they were convicted on espionage charges. They served decades in American jails. Three of them are going to be released back to Cuba in exchange for Mr. Alan Gross.

Let's talk about this. Congressman Sam Farr, Democrat from California, is on the phone right now. Welcome, Congressman.

REP. SAM FARR (D), CALIFORNIA: Thank you. What great news.

COSTELLO: Yes. Give me more of your reaction to this news.

FARR: Well, I visited with Alan Gross in May and he was in very frail condition. We've been advocating to the President to release Alan Gross, to get the prisoners released because two of them have already been released. And I think, frankly, this is a very modern mature move by both countries. It's long overdue. This has been a failed policy for some 53 years. We have a lot of Americans that have been traveling there illegally. The enthusiasm to get there and be legal and be able to import and export goods. I think it's long overdue.

Now Congress has a lot of work to do because we have a very onerous law called the Helms-Burton Law and we certainly have to go back and repeal that or amend it.

COSTELLO: Does it bother you, the prisoner swap aspect of this? Because, you know, Cuba's going to get back these three Cuban spies, they're -- they were spying for Cuba on United States soil. They're responsible for the deaths of some humanitarian aid workers. Should this swap have taken place? Is this a good thing?

FARR: Well, remember there's that trial which was held in Miami has been appealed as to whether it was even a fair trial. And there's new evidence that our government influenced the media there very strongly to get those convictions. We've already allowed the release of two prisoners before their terms were finished so I think these other three prisoners have been there a long time, paid their dues.

I think we've been swapping prisoners in other parts of the world. We hear more about Cuba prisoners and less about the other ones but I think this is all presidents have done prisoner swaps. And I think this is appropriate. But we open up all kinds of opportunities for Americans. This is a great advantage for us and that pressure will bring reforms within Cuba.

COSTELLO: Not only has the United States agreed to this prisoner swap but it's also agreed, we think, to reinstate some diplomatic relations, to take Cuba off the list of terrorist state, ease travel restrictions, ease some banking regulations, even ease some trade with Cuba. This is supposedly being done without the consent or discussion with lawmakers. How do you feel about that?

FARR: Well, some lawmakers and in fact probably the majority voice of Congress had been trying to get the President to do this for a long time. So we have urged him to do exactly what he's been doing.

Look, every country in the Americas has -- those presidents have asked our country to lift the trade embargo on Cuba. They're all -- they all have diplomatic relations -- Canada, Mexico, all the other countries in Latin America. We have a summit coming up and we all get together. And I've been to that summit with President Obama. He was asked by all the presidents to allow Cuba to come to the next summit. This is the first step to really bring the hemisphere together. And I think it's going to be applauded all over the Western hemisphere.

COSTELLO: But still Cuba has long been guilty of serious human rights violations. Shouldn't the President have consulted with Congress before he made these moves?

FARR: Well, we've been doing trade with diplomatic relations and trade with Vietnam and they have human rights violations, so do many other countries. I don't think the way to deal with human rights violations is isolation. I think it's engagement. That's exactly what's happening. This is a very mature, as I said, decision by both countries to approach the relationship.

COSTELLO: I think we've lost Congressman Farr but thank you very much for joining us. I really appreciate it -- the Democrat from California is gone.

I want to bring in Thor Halvorssen -- and I hope I pronounced your last name right. He's the president of the Human Rights Foundation. Welcome.

THOR HALVORSSEN, HUMAN RIGHTS FOUNDATION: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

COSTELLO: Thanks for being here.

HALVORSSEN: I have to tell you, the Congressman was wrong on the facts, wrong on the law and wrong on human rights. It's really sad that a member of the U.S. government would say such things that are so outrageous on this show -- comparing Alan Gross someone who is engaged in civil society and human rights work with men who murdered innocent people trying to leave Cuba. Again, it's embarrassing that a member of the U.S. government would say such things.

COSTELLO: I understand you were recently in Cuba and you were mistaken for Alan Gross?

HALVORSSEN: Well, actually, the last time I was in Cuba was about two or three weeks before Alan Gross was arrested and ironically some of my friends thought that it was not Alan Gross that was arrested but it was me that was arrested so they were relieved in the one sense but on the other hand it was tragic that this happened.

Alan Gross, one of your guests earlier, described him as a U.S. asset and that is an outrage. He's no more a U.S. asset than CNN or any civil society organization or business in the United States is a U.S. asset. Alan Gross was in Cuba to deliver cell phones, to deliver material as in educational material, things that are not possible to have in Cuba because Cuba is a totalitarian country where there is no Internet, where there is no freedom of speech, where there is no freedom of assembly, where you can't actually get a subscription to "Time Magazine" or "The Economist" or even "National Enquirer".

And Alan Gross's work was trying to break the monopoly of information that they had, that the Cuban government has over its people -- a 50 to 60-year-old dictatorship. And what he was trying to do is no different than what my organization does in Cuba or in North Korea where we try and also break the monopoly of information that that totalitarian country has over its people. So it's really wrong to describe us as if we're spies. We're not spies.

COSTELLO: Yes. And when you look at the condition of Mr. Gross, he lost 100 pounds. He lost sight in one eye. He has trouble walking. So Cuba's care of him certainly hasn't been great.

HALVORSSEN: Well, Cuba has -- Cuba uses propaganda and pressure to get what they want and the United States could have had Alan Gross released within weeks of his imprisonment and the Obama administration chose not to pressure the Cuban government. Instead they decided to just let's have dialogue and let's figure out how to do this.

The United States government has enough leverage where it could have had Alan Gross released within a matter of weeks, especially financial pressure on Cuba. And anyone who thinks about the embargo and says that it's what's causing economic problems in Cuba doesn't understand that the embargo restricts American companies from doing business in Cuba except with some exceptions. And the list of exceptions is thousands and thousands of products and industries.

And every other country in the world trades with Cuba so you can get Chilean wines and you can get Swiss cheese and you can get French ham. The idea that poverty in Cuba is caused by this embargo is an outrage. The poverty in Cuba is caused by the fact that the government controls all employment. The government owns virtually all of the businesses and lords it over their people so that the Castro brother can take and keep this loot.

COSTELLO: Well, there is an argument to be made, I suppose, that the embargo has been in place for, what, more than 50 years, and it hasn't worked. The Castros are still in power. So why not take another road?

HALVORSSEN: That's an excellent argument to have and one that the organization that I'm involved with, we don't have a position on the embargo. But what is important is if people are going to have a discussion on the subject like a member of the U.S. Congress like Congressman Farr, they maybe should have a little more knowledge about what the facts are as opposed to going with talking points that are being spread by the Cuban government and its allies which is an outrage.

Cuba is a dictatorship and inviting it to be a part of a democratic gathering of nations is no different than if suddenly we invited the government of North Korea. The U.N. exists for people to theoretically have dialogue with each other and look where that has gotten us.

The fact is that isolating nations that are human rights violators does work. It does make a difference. Sanctions made a difference in South Africa during apartheid. It made a difference in Chile during the Pinochet regime. Interesting how people pivot and change their point of view on the subject depending on the politics of the ruler.

COSTELLO: All right. I'm going to have to leave it there. Thor Halvorssen, thank you so much for joining me, I appreciate it.

I want to bring in Congresswoman Barbara Lee -- she's a Democrat from California. She joins me now on the phone. Welcome and thank you for being with me this morning.

REP. BARBARA LEE (D), CALIFORNIA: Thank you. Really happy to be with you.

COSTELLO: Happy that you're here. So you just returned from Cuba four days ago?

LEE: No, no, I returned from Cuba, actually, last night. I was with -- I actually led a seven-member delegation to look really, quite frankly, at the public health system and all the issues around scientific research, diabetes and health.

COSTELLO: Tell me what you think of this?

LEE: Oh, I think this is a major step. I have had the opportunity to meet with Alan Gross on four occasions. I know the case and I was listening to your prior speaker. I know this case very well. We don't need to go into that in detail.

But I tell you one thing -- it's about time that this takes place. Also it's about time that the President really looks at this failed 50-year policy and begin to normalize relations. The American people first of all deserve that, they deserve to be able to travel to Cuba and we deserve normal relations so that we can move forward and put all the issues that both countries want to talk about and need to talk about regarding whether it's human rights, whatever it is.

COSTELLO: Well, let me ask you this Congresswoman.

(CROSSTALK)

LEE: It begins with --

COSTELLO: Let me ask you this Congresswoman.

LEE: It begins with normal diplomatic relations. Very important development and I'm very pleased it's happening during Hanukkah and during the holiday season.

COSTELLO: Ok. I wanted to ask you this, if the President should have conferred with the elected representatives in this country before the prisoner swap took place.

LEE: Well, I'll tell you, we've been deferring with the president -- many of us for many, many years that since he's been in office. Also he's doing within what his executive power. The President has certain authorities that he needs to exercise when in fact it has to do with his office as the presidency. This is a policy that needs to change. The President's doing everything he can do within his executive power to do it and Congress needs to do what we need to do to fully begin to lift the embargo.

I know Cuba very well. I understand the issues around Cuba and my first visit -- and I've been now at least 21 times in '77. 1977 as a staffer to one of the first congressional members who visited Cuba and that was Congressman Ron Dellums who then calling for an end to the embargo and normal relations recognizing both sides had economic, political issues to address.

And so this has been a long time coming. The President did absolutely the right thing. We need to move forward now and begin to engage in normal relations so the American people can participate in educational exchanges if they so choose, they can visit Cuba.

COSTELLO: I get it. I just want to ask you one question. In your mind what has Raul Castro done to deserve this? Give me one thing.

LEE: I don't think it's about what any country has done to deserve anything. We have normal relations with Vietnam, we have normal relations with China, we need to move forward to work with President Raul Castro to make sure that normal relations between the United States are respectful and that in fact all of the issues that we care about as it relates to Cuba. And of course they have --

COSTELLO: Like what? What about human rights violations?

LEE: All of those are on the table.

COSTELLO: What about human rights violation? Has Raul Castro done anything tangible about that?

LEE: Any human rights violations that we all are aware of need to be addressed, will be addressed but also remember the President has always talked about human rights violations everywhere in the world. And we have to really recognize that you can't do anything about human rights if you have an embargo where you're not engaged in talks and discussions.

I think with more Americans going Cuba, when you talk about democracy, when you talk about issues of free speech, all of those issues are issues that both sides need to talk about, address and come together and deal with. But remember, you know, this is going to take two countries engaging, you can't be isolated from the rest of the world if, in fact, human rights concerns which there are many human rights concerns again everywhere in the world. You have to have some form of bilateral engagement to address them.

COSTELLO: All right. I'll have to leave it there. Congresswoman Barbara Lee. Thanks so much for your insight this morning. I appreciate it.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Ok. I want to end with some fun so let's lighten the mood, shall we? Two brothers on opposite sides of the political aisle found out you're never too old to be scolded by your mother.

Brad and Dallas Woodhouse are both featured in a new documentary about families divided by politics. Brad is the former communications director for the Democratic National Committee; Dallas a Republican is founder of a public policy nonprofit in North Carolina. And yesterday on C-Span while talking about the film they got a surprise call from their mom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's go to Joy in Raleigh, North Carolina. Good --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, somebody from down south.

JOY WOODHOUSE: You're right I'm from down south.

BRAD WOODHOUSE, DEMOCRAT: Oh, God, it's mom.

JOY WOODHOUSE: And I'm your mother and I disagree that all families are like ours. I don't know many families that are fighting at Thanksgiving.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this really your mother?

BRAD WOODHOUSE: Yes, this is really our mom.

JOY WOODHOUSE: I was very glad that this Thanksgiving was a year that you two were supposed to go to your in-laws. And I was hoping -- and I'm hoping you'll have some of this out of your system when you come here for Christmas. I would really like that.

BRAD WOODHOUSE: Yes, we were not together this Thanksgiving.

(CROSSTALK)

JOY WOODHOUSE: I would really like a peaceful Christmas and I love you both.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me jump in because this was not planned. She called in on the normal line. Since you did call in, Mrs. Woodhouse, what's it like to raise these two boys?

JOY WOODHOUSE: Well, it hadn't been easy.

DALLAS WOODHOUSE, REPUBLICAN: No truer words have ever been said. We love you, mom.

JOY WOODHOUSE: And I love politics. Their dad and I both love politics, we followed the entire country. I know that we have to take responsibility for them. And they're both very passionate about what they believe in and I love that about them. But I hope that they just kind of get this out of their system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: I just love the expressions on their faces. You guys look like scolded schoolboys.

BRAD WOODHOUSE: I felt scolded.

COSTELLO: Brad and Dallas Woodhouse.

DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Let me tell you something, I've been around this game a long time and it takes a lot to find somebody that can make me speechless and my mother did it yesterday.

COSTELLO: Although, Joy, I have to say, you are responsible for your sons. You raised them to become the men they are.

DALLAS WOODHOUSE: That's right.

JOY WOODHOUSE: That's correct. And I am -- I am basically proud of them. I just don't want a reporter at my house this Christmas. I have eight grandchildren and of course that's loud enough.

DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Somebody said it was the most exciting clip in C- Span history. I mean exciting and C-Span -- I love C-Span, but exciting and fun are usually not two words that you put together with C-Span.

But look, I can't lie here on CNN. I don't know that we're going to give mom what she wants because I got to tell you, I don't know that a leopard can change his spots.

Come the next election, my brother will be staring down at 50 and I just don't know that we can change --

BRAD WOODHOUSE: Thanks, Dallas.

DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Since we put a beat down on his side this time I got a few licks I need to give him on this election. So I just don't know if I can lie to my mama who I love.

COSTELLO: Brad, let me ask you this question. No, no Brad -- let me ask you this question because my mother forbids me to talk about anything political because we have very different views so I can relate to the conversation you had on air with your mother Joy.

But why can't you guys resist fighting or arguing or debating politics just for an hour or two during dinner?

BRAD WOODHOUSE: I mean Carol, we try. It is so hard, though. I mean we are engaged in this political combat virtually every day of our lives. We have decently high profile jobs in politics, we clashed over Obamacare -- I won that one, by the way. But in any event -- we try, but man it's so hard when your whole kind of -- your life, your day, your career is so tied up in these issues. And we're polar opposites so we can't even have a theoretical discussion of these things without getting into arguments.

DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Look, Carol, Lassie can't stop being a dog. Bill Clinton can't stop checking out women. And we can't stop --

BRAD WOODHOUSE: Stop it, Dallas.

DALLAS WOODHOUSE: We can't stop talking about politics.

BRAD WOODHOUSE: Stop it.

DALLAS WOODHOUSE: If we didn't we wouldn't be who we are.

COSTELLO: Joy, I feel your pain. Joy, I do.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: You're upsetting your mother. Stop, I have to end it there.

DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Mom loves it. She loves it. She loves us.

JOY WOODHOUSE: I want him to hush right now.

BRAD WOODHOUSE: I love you, Mama.

COSTELLO: All right. Thank you all for being here.

JOY WOODHOUSE: I love you, honey.

COSTELLO: I so appreciate it.

DALLAS WOODHOUSE: Merry Christmas.

COSTELLO: Merry Christmas.

DALLAS WOODHOUSE: That was fun.

COSTELLO: That was awesome.

All right, we have to get serious and get back to the breaking news.

As you know, an American prisoner held captive in Cuba for the past five years has been released. His name is Alan Gross. He was released in a prisoner swap. Three Cuban spies in jail here in the United States get to go back to Cuba in exchange for Mr. Gross.

We've been talking to Ana Navarro, our CNN political analyst for some time this morning about the situation. You just got a call from the White House. Tell us about it.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I did. Obviously they are monitoring the news and they're watching CNN. And they tell me that it is not a prisoner swap for the three spies and Alan Gross. That it was a swap of the three Cuban spies for a high level U.S. intel asset that had been held in Cuba for over 20 years who they are not going to name. And that that swap in turn enabled the humanitarian release -- the good act by the Cuban government of doing a humanitarian release of Alan Gross who had been held for over five years.

But obviously as I speak to Bob Menendez, I just read his statement that he put out. Marco Rubio and all the other Cuban-American members of Congress, I don't think anybody's buying that. It's a real stretch but that's what the White House is saying. That it was not a swap of three spies for an American being held in prison. It was a swap of three Cuban spies for a high level U.S. intel asset.

COSTELLO: So a U.S. spy in Cuba was being held for the past 20 years. Had you heard about that? Do you know anything about this other -- this American spy that was being held in Cuba that the White House is telling you about? She can't hear me. I was wondering why she didn't answer me. This is getting more and more interesting, isn't it?

Of course the President will speak noon, Eastern time; he will tell us more. And Raul Castro, the president of Cuba will also give a news conference in his country. That will also happen at noon eastern time. Of course CNN will continue to follow this breaking news throughout the day.

Thank you for joining me today, I'm Carol Costello.

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