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Dr. Drew

Actor Admits Molesting Girls; She Had Dementia, Could She Consent To Sex?; Convicted Pedophile Dressed As Santa

Aired December 17, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, a celebrity confesses publicly and admits to molesting three underage girls. Did the Bill Cosby scandal play a role?

Plus, a convicted pedophile who sexually assaulted an 11-year-old boy poses as Santa. Let`s get started.

Good evening, everyone. My former co-host is here with me, Samantha Schacher. Actor Steven Collins, the father on Seventh Heaven, admits he

had inappropriate sexual contact with three underage girls. "People" magazine is reporting the details.

Now, this comes after TMZ released audio of Collins talking about the incidents. If you remember, it was in a therapy session with his estranged

wife. We have that. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRANT: How many times with (inaudible)?

COLLINS: Once.

GRANT: And -- you said that there was another girl, how many girls altogether?

COLLINS: That`s it.

GRANT: No, You said there was --

COLLINS: No, help me out here. There was (inaudible) sister, then there was --

GRANT: So (inaudible) sister who was 10 because she wrote me -- because (inaudible) was 10, 11, 12 around several years.

COLLINS: There were I think, yes, there were like three incidents over about three years.

GRANT: So and then there was the girl across the way at (inaudible) and then there`s (inaudible). So it`s just three?

COLLINS: Yes.

GRANT: You`re sure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Joining us, Vanessa Barnett, hollywood.com, Anneelise Goetz, attorney, and Andy Dean, radio talk show host, and CEO connectpal.com.

Here is what Collins has now told "People" magazine, quote, "Forty years ago, I did something terribly wrong that I deeply regret.

I`ve been working to atone for it ever since. I`ve decided to address these issues publicly, because two months ago, various news organizations

published a recording made by my then-wife, Faye Grant, during a confidential marriage therapy session in January 2012. Sam, there`s more

in this article, right?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: He admitted several different incidents, Dr. Drew, where he exposed himself to underage girls. So for

example, in the article of 1973, exposed himself to a pre-teen girl twice.

In 1982, exposed himself to a teenage girl. In 1994, exposed himself to a teenage girl. After `94 incident is when he says he hit rock bottom and

that`s when he went and got treatment and he did apologize to one of the women 15 years later.

PINSKY: So this guy walks into a room and drops his clothes, but doesn`t touch anybody? Is that what he is claiming?

SCHACHER: One of the incidents he actually -- there was some touching.

PINSKY: That was in 1973. He admits -- this is the only time he admits to doing more than exposing himself. He told "People" magazine, quote, "I

moved her hand in such a way to cause her to touch me inappropriately."

It lasted less than a minute during which there was no gratification. It was a completely compulsive act. It has hunted me ever since to think of

what I put her through." All right, Vanessa, how do you react to all this?

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: The apology is nice or whatever. It`s there. It`s like, but for me it doesn`t do anything. You haven`t

been held accountable for any of your actions.

PINSKY: Legally?

BARNETT: Legally, nothing has happened. And you say you`re trying to atone for these things, but you never turned yourself in. And what about

these victims, they never got justice. So this apology is falling on deaf ears.

The simple fact that he gave his apology to "People" magazine seems as though he`s doing more to fix his image and more to make sure that he`s

gaining traction or whatever in Hollywood to get his career back on track.

PINSKY: So he`s trying to do what everyone is asking Bill Cosby to do, which is make sense of what happened to help us understand this, can we

forgive somebody --

BARNETT: There is no sense to make and no one can understand it and I don`t believe this -- this apology is halfhearted to me. It doesn`t help

these women.

PINSKY: Elise, my question is, is there any potential for some legal action here? In fact, if you read what would you call it, a testimonial

that he gave? It`s one paragraph where he talks about how he went back to one of these girls and apologized.

It sounded like that she was gracious, but did not have a good experience with it. And I wonder if there was also a legal problem there as well.

ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: Dr. Drew, I guaranty without any question that this statement, because that`s what it was, it was a statement. He didn`t

call up people and talk to them. This statement was vetted by his attorney.

Before that statement was released, I am sure that attorney ran all the statute of limitations, both on criminal as well as civil procedures.

There`s no way he has any liability. His attorney wouldn`t let him open himself up like that.

PINSKY: Anneelise, would you advice a client to come clean like that? Let`s look at Bill Cosby, for instance, is there a benefit to coming clean

from a legal perspective?

GOETZ: I don`t think there`s necessarily a benefit. But we`re talking about a celebrity here, so their currency is their public persona. If he

believes his public persona was under attack, he`s probably looking at Cosby thinking I don`t want to be like that guy.

And so he is trying to get ahead of the story and as long as that statute has run, then you`re more comfortable going ahead and making those

statements. Otherwise, it could be used against you in court and that`s why you never want your client talking.

PINSKY: Got it. Andy, it seems to me, so the way this is being painted, one is, it makes it seem a little bit disingenuous because it does seem

like he is trying to sort of get on with things. It also seems as though there`s no potential for legal action and it`s in the shadow of the Cosby

thing that`s motivating this. Do you agree?

ANDY DEAN, CEO, CONNECTPAL.COM: I disagree with the idea that it`s a disingenuous apology. I think it`s borderline psychotic. If we look at it

from a psychological perspective, he`s trying to put himself through some bizarre morality car wash. He`s a freak and a pervert. He`s not only

weird, he`s a bad actor.

PINSKY: Hold on. Hold on.

SCHACHER: Wow.

PINSKY: Because I`ve talked to people who knew him, like Jeremy London. People say lovely things about him in the near term.

DEAN: They said about that Bill Cosby, too. He`s a total pervert.

PINSKY: Anneelise, do you agree with Andy?

GOETZ: I don`t. I think that if you actually read that statement, what he said is it `94, he realized his actions and he`s been in therapy ever since

then.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But Vanessa --

BARNETT: If you`re really sad about the things you do, you`ve done and you want to atone for these things, turn yourself in. Make sure that`s some

legal issues that get handled here.

PINSKY: All right, so Vanessa, you and Andy are sort of lined up, right?

GOETZ: I don`t think putting him in a jail cell is going to help this guy.

PINSKY: I`m going to put in the behavior bureau.

SCHACHER: OK, after you read the article, do you think that he actually went through the 14 years of treatment? Did you hear some language in

there that helped show he did receive the treatment?

PINSKY: I have a lot of thoughts. I`ll share them in the next block. You listen carefully, Vanessa, because I know how (inaudible) about mental

health.

All right, next up, it will give you not only my sort of thoughts on this whole phenomena or what was in there, I will give you a hint, I`m not as

harsh as Andy is.

The result of a poll we have, as well. Now that Stephen Collins has publicly confessed to sexual abuse, will he work again?

And later, when Santa is a pedophile, we call Andy, because he will have none of this. He is a convicted sex offender posing as St. Nick, is that

legal? Is it OK? Can he have his job? We`ll get into that after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel like my world, our world has stopped and the rest of the world is speeding along.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Divorce papers filed by his estranged wife, Faye Grant, in 2012. In the documents, Collins admitted to molesting three underage

girls.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Steven Collins I know is simply one of the kindest, most gentle, hearted souls you`ll ever meet in your life. It just doesn`t

ring true to me. It doesn`t seem right.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": He`s now publicly confessing to sexually abusing underage girls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back now with my behavior bureau, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University, Erica, a psychotherapist, television

host, and Kirstine Hagland, former Miss America, founder of Kirsten Haglund Foundation.

"Seventh Heaven" actor Steven Collins admits to "People" magazine that he had inappropriate sexual contact with underage girls, three of them,

between 1973 and 1994. Sam, remind us what he said about his treatment.

SCHACHER: He said in 1994 is when he hit rock bottom, when he exposed himself to the third teenager.

PINSKY: And again, he does not tell us what he meant by rock bottom, but that episode got through to him. You hear Judy --

SCHACHER: We`re excited to hear you take, Judy. He told "People" magazine, quote, "I have been in extensive therapy for over twenty years,

years of 12 Step recovery, personal growth workshops in therapeutic settings, private religious confession and consultation, daily prayers of

atonement, and meditation every day."

PINSKY: All right. So there`s a lot of stuff there that`s rather vague from a stand point of Judy and Erica and I. It`s something, it`s

extensive, it`s ongoing, 20 years. Judy, first of all, the bottom caught your attention. He said I hit bottom but doesn`t talk about it.

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: When we hear about bottom in our clinical experience, Dr. Drew, it usually involves substances.

PINSKY: It usually is an egregious set of circumstances. Not like, whoops, I did that again. It can happen that way, but it`s usually not

that. In terms of his 20 years of some kind of individual therapy it sounds like. Do you think that is adequate or do you think that`s what

he`s talking about?

HO: I know he`s been so vague in his statement. Even though he`s listed a whole laundry list of things, we don`t know what he`s been doing. The

thing that caught my attention is this 12-step program.

We talked about this when you first featured the story, perhaps there may have been substance issues. When he`s talking about the 12 steps, that`s

possibly what he`s talking about.

PINSKY: Or Erica, it could be sex addiction or it could be both.

ERICA AMERICA, TV HOST: It could be both. I think this is very different than the Bill Cosby thing. We don`t have victims coming out, you know,

left and right. This is because of the wife`s divorce proceedings, where she taped him.

PINSKY: Which is egregious by itself, just horrible.

AMERICA: Also, we have him going up to one victim before it even came out trying to apologize. So it shows you he did have --

PINSKY: But Erica, it sounds like it didn`t go so well. The attorneys vetted those paragraphs. That was not a psychologically motivated

paragraph, it was a legal paragraph. So I wonder if something didn`t go well in that amends.

AMERICA: I believe that he`s being honest and trying to say what he thinks he did wrong and if people want to believe it, I think there`s room for

apology.

PINSKY: Can we put up that tweet? I`m sorry, Sam. Kirsten, I`m going to show you this tweet. It basically says that some are never happy. Here it

is. I don`t want to trash anybody. I`m just trying to understand this stuff.

I will say, having said all those -- raising all those questions that Judy and Erica raised, I still feel like this was a very genuine attempt at

making some sort of a real apology and really make sense of some very disturbed behavior that he`s trying to deal with for quite some time. Do

you agree?

KIRSTEN HAGLUND, FORMER MISS AMERICA: I totally agree with you, Dr. Drew. I think that the public kind of does this. When is enough, enough? I

think he`s done everything anyone could have asked for and someone that has done an injustice to these young women.

He`s taken a private conversation that he confessed. He was trying to work and reconcile with his wife. That`s a great step. It didn`t work out.

When this came out, it`s so unfortunate for him, but he made a public apology. He learned from a bad situation and confessed that, you know,

trying to apologize to this one girl, he applied that lesson to the other two.

He said, I`m not going to approach the other two girls I`m going to try to be respectful of them and realize it was a long time ago. He`s done

everything we could have wished for.

I think it`s probably good when we see a man to say this guy handled this in the right way. Let`s try to support them and say that was a good job.

Bad what you did, but you handled it in a way that we can --

SCHACHER: Can you imagine if he didn`t get treatment, Dr. Drew? There would have been more victims so good for him for taking accountability, for

owning up.

PINSKY: What about what Vanessa was saying, and Andy too, a bit of trashing there, but there has to be some sort of -- by amends, they see

some sort of punishment. Does he need to be punished to atone? Or has the years of misery been enough? I don`t know.

SCHACHER: It would be great if he could pay for the consequences.

PINSKY: Pay for their treatment.

SCHACHER: Yes, absolutely. That would be awesome. I think that would be a great thing to do.

PINSKY: We don`t know what he did. But Judy, the only thing you can`t tell when you hear an amends like this, it seems sort of on paper it looks

good, you really don`t know if somebody is genuinely involved in the old process, do you?

HO: That`s right. Because he was a little bit vague, even though he is genuine, we don`t really know what type of treatments he`s been through and

what types of insight has he gained? And what types of techniques has he not learned to do this again.

For me, it`s more important to protect potential future victims. I don`t care that he`s not punished. I just want to make sure he has the skills

now to move forward.

PINSKY: Erica?

AMERICA: That`s a great point, Judy. Another thing is what I think about him telling on himself and what he did is because the stories that were

going around were worse than what he did. In the case of Bill Cosby, he`s not saying anything because the stories are outrageous. He`s keeping his

lips closed.

PINSKY: All right, let me go to the poll. Now that he`s confessed publicly, Stephen Collins, will he work in Hollywood again? That was our

question. Only 21 percent say yes, 79 percent say no.

HO: I was in that 21 percent.

PINSKY: You were in the yes category. I was in the yes category, too. Kristen, you look sad by that.

HAGLUND: Yes. I think the public is so incredibly fickle. It chooses to forgive some people and let them work again and others they`ll never work

again. I think he possibly can work again.

Of course, we know that Hollywood likes to see that people have a favorable image before they will hire them. But I think that he can get through

this.

And another thing, one last thing I`d like to say is, healing doesn`t come from vengeance in seeing their life torn apart. Healing for the victim

often comes through their own process. So whatever happens to Stephen Collins, the victims will get healing through their own therapy and their

own working it out in and of themselves.

PINSKY: And through ultimately gaining an understanding of this man had some real problems himself. Would you put that tweet back up again?

There`s this whole notion, don`t have it.

SCHACHER: I like your idea of having to pay for the victim`s treatment. I really like that.

PINSKY: Listen, this whole thing, it`s a sad story. But we`ll keep an eye on it and see how it plays on it.

All right, next up, thank you, panel. A husband is charged with rape after having sex with his wife. OK, he`s charged with rape because she -- there

she is -- has dementia.

Later, this Santa Claus has a criminal record, yes, Santa Claus is a pedophile. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 78-year-old man stands accused of sexually abusing his wife at the nursing home where she lived. She suffered from severe

dementia and one doctor`s note said she was not able to consent to sexual activity. But really what happened in her room is not clear. So was he a

devoted husband or a sexual predator?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I`m back with Sam, Vanessa, Anneelise and Andy. The 78-year-old man you saw there is accused of sexually abusing his own wife who had

dementia. The state claims he had sex with her in the nursing home despite being told she was unable to consent to sexual activity. All right, Sam,

more details.

SCHACHER: This is so sad, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: It is a sad story. I immediately want to scream. Everybody stay out of this.

SCHACHER: According to the wife, his deceased wife`s roommate, she said when he came to visit, he would close the privacy curtain between them and

she heard some sort of sexual activity going on.

PINSKY: She was convinced that`s what she --

SCHACHER: Yes. And the security cameras captured him taking his wife`s underwear and placing it in the hamper before he left. Then the two

daughters of his deceased wife got involved. They called the police, they filed a report, and then a few months after this incident, she died and

just a few days after her funeral, he was arrested.

PINSKY: All right. We also got to point out the prosecutor say the man actually confessed to having had sex with the wife in the room that night

in question. But the man`s attorney said the whole interview was taken out of context.

So the question tonight, was he a husband in love with his wife or is he a sexual deviant taking advantage of a helpless woman and was he exposing the

roommate inappropriately to stuff that she didn`t want to be exposed to. Vanessa, where do we start with this?

BARNETT: I feel so bad for this man. I really truly believe he`s a man that loved his wife. They both had been in marriages before and lost their

spouses, then they come together, just what, seven years ago, in their 70s to find love all over again.

They spent so much time together. They were known to be loving and affectionate. Then dementia sets in. He goes to visit her and now he

can`t even grieve her passing because he has to be committed -- people are saying he`s raping his wife.

It just breaks my heart. I hope at 78, I`m still getting it in. But it`s so sad to me.

PINSKY: Andy, where are you going with this?

DEAN: Right. Well, one thing we have to admit is, this man`s libido is very impressive. He`s almost 80 and wants to have sex several times a day.

I wish I could be so lucky. I say leave these two old bags alone.

PINSKY: Anneelise.

GOETZ: I think this is a case of the daughters, there`s family friction, this was a power play, and it got out of control. All of a sudden the DA

is involved, and I don`t know if they realize the ramifications of what they were doing.

PINSKY: Who, the daughters?

GOETZ: The daughters.

PINSKY: What`s up with the D.A. set everybody straight?

GOETZ: It should not be playing out in court. It`s a waste of taxpayer dollars. There isn`t a leg for this prosecutor to stand on.

PINSKY: Andy, I`m surprised you`re not angry that taxpayers dollars are being spent on a criminal prosecution of a man who sits his entire life as

an outstanding citizen and he is in love with his wife.

DEAN: Correct. This guy is going to get off, no pun intended. There is no case here.

PINSKY: All right, the family`s husband released a statement, quote, "Donna`s location did not change our Dad`s love for Donna nor her love for

him. It did not change their marital relationship. And so he continued to have contact with his spouse in the nursing home who among us would not?"

Anneelise, though, the issue of dementia and consent does sort of challenge these -- what seem like pretty clear, simple kinds of cognitive guidelines.

But when people`s cognition is so severely impaired and yet the affect may still be in play, how do we resolve that?

GOETZ: Here`s the thing, especially under Iowa law, you have to look at did this person actually understand what they were doing? Did they

understand the nature and consequences of the act?

PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait. An Anneelise, you can clearly say I want steak for dinner and not know who you are or you can say I want to have sex and

not know -- not be able to answer any other questions. It`s a very -- it`s not a normally functioning brain. To ask a brain to function normally is

missing the point.

GOETZ: If you look at these tests, they weren`t actually looking at did she understand the sexual act? Did she understand what she wanted to do

there?

PINSKY: I can tell that you`ve never dealt with dementia patients. It`s extremely hard to tell what they do and don`t understand and it fluctuates

all the time. Sometimes they go into states where they don`t seem to understand any words you`re offering or can`t follow any directions and an

hour later, seem conversant.

But you`re not really clear if they truly understand what you`re asking them and they will answer very clearly and then seconds later seemed very

confused by whatever it is they just consented to. Vanessa?

BARNETT: Don`t we have the responsibility of putting laws in place that kind of help navigate that?

PINSKY: That`s the question.

BARNETT: Why does he have to be charged with rape? It was clear, everyone knew the nature of their relationship.

PINSKY: There`s a flip side to this.

SCHACHER: It`s almost like a common sense thing. If they`re in a loving relationship and she`s resisting or confused, I don`t think he`s going to

try to have sex with her at the moment. Given everything I`ve read with the history of their relationship.

PINSKY: She may have been in a semi -- might not have been responding at all at that point, but she --

SCHACHER: I`m sure he knows his wife and knows --

PINSKY: Anneelise, it`s all a very slippery slope. Let me ask you this, there`s a flip side to this. How about if somebody is in a marriage and

the marital partner doesn`t recognize the marital partner, should that partner go out and have other relationships, is it OK to do that? How do

we understand these things?

BARNETT: No. That was the story line on "Grey`s Anatomy" and I did not agree with it. Till death do you part, in sickness and health, don`t be

stepping out on me just because you don`t remember me.

PINSKY: I`m going to leave it right there. I have the son of the accused man here with me. He is here to set the record straight and give us

hopefully a defense of his father.

Later, you better watch out. One town`s Santa Claus is a pedophile. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An elderly woman with dementia is at the center of a sexual assault case. Her husband claims he was devoted and gave her

intimate contact only when she wanted it. But her daughters think he took advantage of her. Now a 78-year-old man will stand trial, accused of

sexually abusing his wife.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Judy, Erica and Kirsten. Lots of you are angry with this woman`s daughters who moved this woman into a nursing home, got

her a roommate and then limited the husband`s contact and privileges. Sam, there is a lot of going on?

SCHACHER: They`re all angry, Dr. Drew. So Brian writes, quote, "This woman`s daughters are disgusting in their interference of their mother`s

private marital issues. Once their mother remarried, it became his responsibility to decide on and act on their mother`s care."

From Iggy, "Shame on these daughters for butting in where they had no business. I`ll bet they`re angling for sole control of all their mother`s

money. It seems more like a daughter`s revenge."

PINSKY: We actually did reach out to the daughters for comment and they were not available. Judy, it is in fact the husband`s -- is the power of

attorney over health care, no?

HO: Absolutely. Here`s the problem. I think there are two different ideas about what would be good for this person. The daughters thought, we

need to protect her, we can`t see her going to her friend`s funeral, these things will aggravate her.

But there are no research findings that support that. What her husband was doing, exposing her to the outside, giving her intimacy, these are the

things that we know that prolong a person`s life who has dementia.

PINSKY: And well-being. Erica?

AMERICA: Yes, well, I understand it`s very controversial, the issue of dementia and care. Yes, there is elder abuse and you have to protect

people from that. This man seemed to be like he had good intentions. I was really walking the line of dementia with her as she deteriorated.

PINSKY: Erica, Erika --

AMERICA: And was continuing the sexual bond.

PINSKY: That`s right. I`ve dealt with this, and it`s more common than you might think. When somebody is developing rapidly progressing dementia and

a relationship has been present physically for years, it`s hard to disconnect it. They`re sort of trying to deal with how the person is

changing. It`s not something that happens off like that. It sort of evolves.

AMERICA: I`m not an expert on Alzheimer`s, but while they may be confused on mental status exams, whether they are hungry and what they want sex,

they can be very yes or no. They can say they want sex. He said he asked her.

HO: For her husband to walk the line with her as Erika just said, he`s going to experience this. It`s hardest on the husband, because she has no

recollection of how she`s hurt him or forgotten, but he remembers all that. For him to make that choice and still be with her to the end, that must

have been emotionally draining.

PINSKY: That`s right. And Kirsten, some people would just go, OK, she just doesn`t remember me. I`m going to on and move over to somebody else.

It`s OK, I guess, they are gone effectively.

HAGLUND: Yes, he has shown a tremendous amount of compassion and caring for this woman, as he said with his first marriage, he did with his wife

struggling with diabetes, and just had a horrible condition and he stood by her. That`s one thing that reveals a lot about his character.

He hasn`t had a history of sexual abuse, assault. To see him dragged through the mud in all these accusations, it`s difficult. And those

daughters need to speak up, because it`s leading us here to speculate why they did it.

PINSKY: On the phone, I have Dale Rayhons. He is the son of Henry Rayhons, the gentleman we were talking about in this case, who is going to

be on trial for this.

Dale, I have a couple questions. First of all, I think you see our panel is pretty supportive of your dad. Were you shocked by this? Should

taxpayer dollars be spent on your father?

DALE RAYHONS, HENRY RAYHONS` SON (via telephone): Dr. Drew, shocked is not the word for it. It`s anger, shock, disbelief. It`s so many things it`s

hard to fathom. I have a hard time even trying to comprehend what dad is going through right now.

Because he had to have not only the denial of being with his wife, watching her progress with her dementia, moving into a care center, not being able

to see her, and then ultimately her death and then being charged with rape.

PINSKY: The D.A. should be ashamed of themselves, but let me ask this, the prosecutors say your father confessed and there was something about that

confession that you say was not accurate. Can you set that record straight?

RAYHONS: Well, the interview was very speculative. There`s a lot of parts of the interview -- it was close to a two-hour interview. Again, if you

take bits and pieces out of the interview, yes, you can consider it a confession. But only if you piecemeal it together is the actual what the

state is saying is the confession. And basically, that`s what they`re hanging their hat on right now, is this speculative interview.

SCHACHER: Dale, why do you think your dad`s deceased wife`s two daughters have it out for him, what is motivating them?

RAYHONS: I`m not sure if I can pinpoint anything in particular, whether it be the daughters, whether it be the prosecutor, whether it be the state.

That`s all very speculative at this point and that`s something we hope through all the paperwork, all the court proceedings, is brought to light.

So that we can actually figure out what`s going on. But to speculate, I can`t even begin to speculate. We`ve got some ideas, but again, it`s just

speculation.

PINSKY: All right, Dale, thank you for joining us. We`ll keep an eye on this story. You know, we have a panel of professionals here, and no one

here can imagine -- maybe the DA has some information we`re not aware of, but it`s hard to get our head around.

Judy, apparently they did the mental status exam on her. She was initially a two, then a zero. It was the fact that during the last year that she was

a zero, she couldn`t respond to anything, has people saying that she was incapable of any consent. Do you agree with that?

HO: I don`t agree with that. As you mentioned in the last segment, Dr. Drew, there is a Swiss cheese effect to Alzheimer`s. The mental exam only

looks at a small subset of your cognitive functions. There are things about the dates of today, whether you can remember three items. It doesn`t

get at your autobiographical memory, which is the last thing to go.

PINSKY: And your feelings, your motivations. That all is not something measured threw a cognitive exam.

HAGLUND: Right. Yes, absolutely. There are so many questions here. Every other sign, from their relationship, up until that May 23rd date,

show that they still loved each other and sat together. They knew who one another was and there was --

PINSKY: Even if they didn`t know, they felt it. Erica, last thoughts.

AMERICA: Yes, it`s definitely something we have -- we don`t want people with dementia to be abused, but this was a story of real love and we`re

persecuting the wrong person.

PINSKY: I think you`re wright. I would love to hear from the daughters and the D.A. turn our opinions around here. I would be more than happy to

change my mind, but what I`m hearing now is outrageous.

Next up, a convicted pedophile publicly masquerading as Santa Claus and it`s legal. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone snapped this photo of a man dressed as Santa. It was taken inside this fast food restaurant on Saturday. Turns out this

Santa was 54-year-old Norman Burbank. In 1998, he was sentenced to 12 years in prison for the sexual assault of an 11-year-old boy.

Officers with the police department arrived at the restaurant. They handcuffed Burbank and began to question him. But turns out he wasn`t

breaking the law. So they let him go. We went to Burbank`s home on Monday. Are you Norman Burbank?

NORMAN BURBANK: Yes, I am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But he told us he had no comment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m thinking I better keep an eye on Santa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Better keep an eye on Santa, indeed. Police say they received a tip that a convicted pedophile was playing Santa at a fast food restaurant

and children were sitting on his lap. The Santa, Mr. Norman Burbank, was released after investigators determined he was not in violation of any laws

in Texas. Sam, what else do we know?

SCHACHER: My gosh, I`m so nauseous with this story. His name is Norman Charles Burrbank. He is 54 years old. He went to prison in 1992 for

sexually assaulting an 11-year-old boy. He did his time in Ohio then he decides to relocate when he gets released to Bay Town, Texas.

Now investigators determined he was in compliance based on the terms of his prison release, which have not been made public and did not violate, as you

just said, any Texas law.

PINSKY: OK, Annaleese, you guys and your slippery slopes, help us understand how the law allows this man to play Santa.

SCHACHER: Yet the guy in the last block is being prosecuted.

PINSKY: What is it about the legal system that allows this to happen?

GOETZ: Texas is the antithesis of the nanny state. They have very few laws on the books when it comes to this type of thing. What they`ve

essentially done in this case is pass the buck to the employer and said, McDonald`s, it`s on you when you are hiring someone to see if they`re going

to cause an issue. If the crimes they`ve previously committed, if it`s going to --

PINSKY: Hold on. Let me make sure I hear you. So the liability goes to McDonald`s, right, so they may have some problems here. They actually gave

us a statement. This is from McDonald`s. Quote, "This employee no longer works for our organization. We are reviewing processes to ensure we remain

focused on the safety of customers and employees.

McDonald`s did not confirm if he was a full-time employee or hired to may Santa during the holiday season. So we don`t know if there was a back

ground check performed or if he was a guy that putted off the friar to put on a suit to run through the playground there. I don`t know. The law says

he can play Santa but still.

HO: I don`t care about the law. This is my worst nightmare that people dressed up as those Disney characters --

PINSKY: We`ll hear from all those people, I`m sure they`re very well- meaning people that love kids and are playing these characters, as well. But it is the worst case scenario if somebody crawls into one of those

costumes and gets their hands on a kid.

HO: Yes. And this is my biggest fear about individuals who are pedophiles. This is a sexual orientation, Dr. Drew. It`s not really about

changing their sexual orientation. They`re going to be attracted to children.

So you have to control them so they don`t commit these crimes to hurt other people. So putting him in a Santa Claus suit and letting kids on his lap.

That`s like letting a child be running around --

PINSKY: It`s like he telling a heroin addict to live in a crack house. That`s not a safe place for somebody with those proclivities. Vanessa, I

know you`ve got some thoughts here. Imagine though your daughter was sitting on this guy`s lap?

BARNETT: That was my first thought because we did the whole Santa pictures and on the lap, and smiling for the cameras and --

PINSKY: She didn`t look like too happy. I saw those.

BARNETT: But the second picture was actually really great, and she enjoyed the experience. Let me tell you, I usually try to be a rational person

sometimes. But let me find out that this Santa had anything in his background and I am liable to take a knife to his penis.

And that McDonald`s would be called Vanessa Barnett. Every McDonald`s in bay town would have any name on it. You don`t play with kids and you don`t

put --

PINSKY: Hold on. Slow down. I`ve got to go to break. Anneelise, you can get your client set up for the big action. We`ll be right back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A convicted pedophile who sexually assaulted an 11- year-old boy poses as Santa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We received an anonymous call that morning that this person was a registered sex offender and that he was playing the role of

Santa and he had children in his lap. Him putting on a Santa Claus costume and having children on his lap was not a violation of Texas law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: A man who spent 12 years in prison for assaulting an 11-year-old boy shows up as Santa in Texas. He was detained by police and released

because he wasn`t breaking any laws in what Anneelise is known as the anti- nanny state, which I`m very much in favor of but come on.

SCHACHER: Well, first of all, before I get into the social media comments, because I learned in Texas if you`re a convicted sex offender, you can`t be

a limo driver or operate equipment at an amusement park but you can play Santa?

GOETZ: That`s lobbying for you right there. Some lobbyists got in there and got legislation for those jobs. I don`t know why with a limousine.

PINSKY: And you`re not going to be around kids very likely.

GOETZ: The way I look at this, everyone is attacking him right now as though he committed the crime again. Yes, he is a pedophile. And yes, he

committed this crime. But it was years ago. He`s served his time. The way the criminal justice system works is once you serve that time -- there

isn`t a victim in this crime.

BARNETT: Every single child that sat on that lap is a victim, because the mind of a pedophile, from what I`ve learned in this show, does not change.

You don`t know what was in his mind.

PINSKY: One at time.

HO: I`m sorry, but there is no way that we can assume there was any rehabilitation that went on while he was serving his time. That`s not the

norm, and even if there is treatment, we don`t know what kind of treatment they were getting and these people are not to be treated. This is a sexual

orientation. The only thing we can do is prevent them from committing that crime again.

PINSKY: Anneelise, does he have any rights? Could he go after a wrongful termination or defamation?

GOETZ: There`s no protected class for being a sexual offender. So there are no ramifications for him on this.

HO: When an individual hasn`t committed a crime for 10, 20 years doesn`t mean they won`t again.

PINSKY: But it`s very much like an alcoholic or addict, they need to stay in some kind of treatment and you have to know that the treatment is going

well, that they`re engaged in it and stay engaged.

SCHACHER: Social media, just within a few hours, we have 400 comments. I can`t even repeat most of them.

PINSKY: They`re full of expletives?

SCHACHER: Yes. Let me give you a couple of examples. A woman named pam did take a softer approach, she writes, quote, "Anything to do with contact

with children should be off-l-limits, no matter what. She says that includes Santa, the Easter Bunny, giving out candy at Halloween, being a

clown, coach, et cetera. Betty Ann writes, "The temptation could be too great for him to offend again. It`s only common sense."

PINSKY: Is Twitter going, too? My Twitter feed is still stuck on the man with his wife and they`re angry about that, which I`m with them on that.

Shouldn`t a back ground check be standard for anyone that plays Santa Claus?

GOETZ: That is what McDonald`s is going to be hit with. They`re going to say how did you guys not know that you had a registered sex offender,

because he is, how did you have him as your Santa Claus? That was completely negligent. And if, this is a big if, if there is a victim, if

there was a harm, McDonald`s is going to have a lawsuit in a second. That`s the key here.

PINSKY: What if somebody`s parent had been sexually abused himself and is now having flashbacks, is that a sufficient threshold, or does somebody

have to be boundaries violated?

GOETZ: There has to be a harm. He has to be tried again for that purpose. Yes, he previously did this, he did it in Ohio. But that doesn`t mean he

did it again here in this McDonald`s.

PINSKY: Everybody, stay away from the kids if you have this. Thank you, panel. Please DVR us and watch us any time. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right

now.