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Senior ISIS Leaders Killed; U.S. Blames North Korea; North Korea Bureau 121; Cuba Deal

Aired December 18, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Brooke Baldwin. Breaking news here. We have just gotten word of the deaths of three top shelf ISIS terrorists in the United States strikes in Iraq. Again, three major leaders of ISIS. Let me go to Washington, to Jim Sciutto, our CNN senior national security correspondent.

And, Jim Sciutto, tell me what you know.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, this just coming in moments ago. We're told three senior leaders, and these are people who are very high up in the ISIS organization, very close to the leader al-Baghdadi. One of them was al-Baghdadi's deputy in Iraq. His name, Haji Mutazz. Another, his military emir, his military commander in Iraq, Abd al Basit, as well as his Mosul emir and Mosul a very key stronghold for ISIS fighters, taken, of course, from Iraq forces earlier this year as those Iraqi forces melted away.

I'm told that these were the result of multiple air strikes going back to mid-November, but with these strikes, in light of the limited situation we have on the ground there in terms of intelligence, it took until now to confirm with those bomb damage assessments, or BDAs as the military calls them, with confidence that these leaders were killed.

And some more news that I can add as well, Brooke, because I'm told that just yesterday the president signed deployment orders for 1,300 U.S. forces to go to Iraq. This is of the 1,500 additional forces that he authorized last month, but now those forces are actually on their way there. And I'm told by February of next year, just two months away, Brooke, there are going to be 3,000 American forces on the ground in Iraq. Just imagine that considering where we were a year ago when you had zero troop presence. We started with just 150 or so, but now there will be 3,000 by February.

BALDWIN: Three thousand.

Let me follow up on that because of the news, this announcement, the 1,300 yesterday. Do we know, again, I think it's worth reiterating the position of these troops, simply in a training position or are they moving more into the field?

SCIUTTO: Well, the administration says not combat. They'll continuing in both their military advisory role, also their training and assisting role. But this is key, and it's great point, Brooke, because they're not just going to be confined any more to Baghdad and Erbil, relative pockets of safety in Iraq, they're going further afield. I'm told, for instance, there are now 300 U.S. troops in Anbar province at the al Assad (ph) base. You know, Anbar province, a good portion of Anbar controlled by ISIS fighters. You now have U.S. forces out there. And that's just one of the first forward deployments. You're going to have a dozen or so training bases, smaller bases around the country in contested areas. They may not be front line troops, they may not be called combat troops, but, Brooke, you know, let's make this very clear, they will be much closer to combat and as a result much closer to danger.

BALDWIN: All right, Jim Sciutto, thank you so much, of those top three leaders killed in Iraq. Thank you.

I want to turn to this story we've been following for you. This cyberattack on Sony over this Seth Rogen/James Franco comedy, "The Interview." The United States now blaming hackers working directly for North Korea. An official announcement could come as early as today on that.

Sony is coming under fire for pulling the movie about the assassination of the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-un, before it even hit theaters Christmas Day. That shutdown followed an online threat of a 9/11-style attack, you know basically saying, remember 9/11 at those movie theaters who'd be showing this film. Which then prompted the biggest theater chains to yank it, deciding not to show the film. You check Twitter. You saw actor Rob Lowe had a big (ph) -- part in "The Interview," declaring the hackers won an utter and complete victory. People in Hollywood aren't just mad. Comedian Chris Rock says they are scared.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS ROCK, COMEDIAN: I mean this whole thing is just scary, man. Somebody, you know, your e-mails and it's your private stuff and I don't know. I mean the whole town's scared. Everybody's got to be scared. No one knows what the, you know -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody knows what to do.

ROCK: Nobody knows what to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: But this cyberattack is much bigger than one movie or one company. It will have an impact on business everywhere. This is Jeffrey Zients, President Obama's economic adviser, just this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFFREY ZIENTS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Right now the focus, as I said earlier, is what can we do to get ahead of this and to protect our networks and every company needs to be investing in cyber protection.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Jeffrey Zients there.

Here he is from Washington, straight to New York, our chief Washington correspondent, host of "The Lead," Mr. Jake Tapper.

You know, on this whole thing and all the tweets, you tweeted about this, but we saw Newt Gingrich saying, America just lost its first cyberwar. Do you agree?

JAKE TAPPER, HOST, CNN'S "THE LEAD": Well, first of all, the United States and China have been involved in a rather unpublicized cyber war for many, many years.

BALDWIN: Right. That's not news.

TAPPER: So I don't know about the first. This certainly was a cyberattack. You could even call it cyber terrorism, especially with the threat made by the hackers, not just at Sony, but at movie theaters across the country. It is a very serious national security issue. I don't know that the U.S. government wants to cast it in those terms as starkly as possible, but they don't want people to be upset, they don't want people to be fearful. But it is very, very serious and it is just really the first one that we're paying attention to.

BALDWIN: So far, though, when you look at what the administration has said on this, not much. It's been pretty quiet now that it's been revealed that it's apparently North Korea. Do you think that their response will change because of that?

TAPPER: Well, I don't know exactly who they're fingering. We've heard from an unidentified U.S. official that it's somebody with links or ties to North Korea. I don't know if that means its --

BALDWIN: Right, this Bureau 121, whatever that means, people around the world --

TAPPER: Chinese hackers. I don't know who it is.

BALDWIN: Right.

TAPPER: But if it can be proven that it is state sponsored, then there will be repercussions. There will be further sanctions and possibly more, who knows. But, as of right now, the information we have is still - it's still coming in.

BALDWIN: So then the obvious next step is, how can other businesses, right, private entities, protect themselves? And we know that it is illegal for, what, U.S. government and private business to work together.

TAPPER: They're separated, yes.

BALDWIN: That's illegal.

TAPPER: Right.

BALDWIN: Will that change, do you think? TAPPER: Well, a bunch of cybersecurity bills are -- just passed

Congress, but the trickiest issues, the thorniest issues, are not addressed in them. Not surprisingly. For instance, let's say Tapper Inc. gets cyberattacked. If I take that information to the government, do I have immunity? That's a big question. Encouraging transparency among these private corporations. What can they get in exchange for that? They want immunity because they want to make sure that they're cooperating with the government doesn't end up hurting them or hurting their bottom line. And so there are a lot of really tricky issues that have not been addressed that need to. I suspect, yes, soon hopefully there will be progress made, but --

BALDWIN: But in the meantime, Tapper Inc. and other companies could - you know, I mean if this can happen at Sony of all places, that's the fear, right, that it could happen in any other (INAUDIBLE).

TAPPER: Well, look, I mean, I don't think that the movie theater companies were only worried about acts of terrorism, although certainly they were and possible lone wolves or copycats or whatever. They also don't want to get in the sights of these hackers. They don't want their CEO's e-mails hacked into. And, look, none of us do. It's one of the reasons why there's even this debate, should we even be reporting on the contents?

BALDWIN: Right. Right.

TAPPER: This is just the beginning of a very, very ugly situation.

BALDWIN: Jake Tapper, thank you.

TAPPER: I'm sorry. I come up here and I don't exactly spread holiday cheer, do I?

BALDWIN: No, you don't.

TAPPER: I'm sorry.

BALDWIN: We'll discuss that in the break, in the way you said hello.

TAPPER: Apologies. Happy Hanukkah.

BALDWIN: Yes. Same to you, I guess.

Coming up next, inside of North Korea's secret cyber bureau, we were just talking about there, it apparently involves nearly 2,000 of these cyberterrorists globally, but how do we know this? A defector is speaking out to CNN. He is next.

Plus, we're learning more about the secret talks behind the deal that may crack the 50-year standoff between the United States and Cuba.

You're watching CNN. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. And I want you to imagine this. Imagine more than 1,000

cyberterrorists, all around the world, secret agents commissioned by North Korea, tasked to stage attacks against the enemy, including the United States. They're allegedly part of this organization called Bureau 121. And now a former Pyongyang military systems worker, who defected to South Korea, is talking and he's talking to CNN, saying that the cyberwar has already begun.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Cyberattack capability is much more dangerous than nuclear weapon because often it's hard to find the attackers. And low cost in effort, North Korea can cause an incredible impact on many aspects of the targeting society, politically, economically and militarily.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: But is North Korea really capable of staging such a sophisticated attack here, like the ones threated by cyber terrorists who infiltrated Sony Pictures, threats on the scale of September 11th? Threats that led to Sony canceling "The Interview's" release in theaters?

Remember this picture from just a little more than a year ago. North Korean Leader Kim Jong-un, in his war room, maps behind him with targets in Texas and California and Hawaii. Remember that? Or this government video showing a bull's eye on the White House.

Joining me, international security analyst Jim Walsh. He's a MIT research associate who has traveled to North Korea for talks with officials about nuclear terrorism.

Jim Walsh, nice to see you.

JIM WALSH, RESEARCH ASSOCIATE, MIT'S SECURITY STUDIES PROGRAM: Good to see you.

BALDWIN: So, listen, CNN is reporting thus far that it was North Korea behind this attack. And I understand, you know, you, and you're not the only one who has doubts exactly over the genesis of this maybe. But let's go with what we're being told.

WALSH: Sure.

BALDWIN: My question to you is, you know, what do you know about their cyberattack capabilities in general and who would be helping them?

WALSH: Well, in terms of cyberwarfare and cyber activity, North Korea, along with China and Russia, are always listed among the top groups of countries that -- where governments are actively engaged in cyberattacks or cyber defense or cyber in general. Andi t makes sense, you know, sort of at a general level, North Korea's pretty prickly about some of these things. This would be a way that they would be able to strike back. But I do think parts of the story don't - it's true, don't add up. I

think it's highly unlikely, almost down to zero, that North Korea would launch a terror attack on the U.S. homeland at movie theaters and that sort of --

BALDWIN: So do you think they're bluffing, or whoever it is is bluffing?

WALSH: Well, a couple of things. First of all, the North Koreans are not known for timid rhetoric. They constantly say they're going to blow you up or kill you or destroy you in, you know, purple language of all kinds. So that's sort of how they talk. And often they talk that way and nothing comes of it.

This is not the first time we've had a movie that sort of made fun of the North Korean leadership. I remember some years ago I was hosting a delegation at Harvard, a group was coming from North Korea, and that movie "Team America" came out.

BALDWIN: Yes.

WALSH: And I called up the studio and I said, I've got to see this movie before these guys show up or we could have some real problems here. So they set up a private screening. And, you know, it wasn't that complimentary. But, you know, -- and the South Korean press constantly attacks and says nasty things about the North Koreans and the North Koreans say we're going to do these terrible things. You know, it just doesn't seem to - you know maybe in this case, but there's something more to it. There's something else in this story that we don't know and we're not going to know because Sony isn't going to tell us anything and the U.S. government isn't going to give us any details. They're going to want to keep that secret for sources and methods. So there are going to be some ongoing question marks about this.

BALDWIN: Yes, I think that is an incredibly valid point and I'm glad you bring it up. All of the rhetoric and how some of this just really doesn't seem to add up. How do you, just knowing what you know about the inner machinations of North Korea, how should the U.S., how should the Obama administration respond?

WALSH: Well, if they think it's North Korea, then, fine, they should say it. But if they're not sure, they shouldn't say it, because it puts everyone in a pickle. What are you going to do? Now, you know, people talk about sanctions. North Korea is one of the most sanctioned countries in the world. And, frankly, it's gone -- in recent years it's actually gotten a little bit wealthier, at least the elites living in the capital city have gotten wealthier. And why? It's the luckiest county by geography. It sits next to China. China has double digit growth rates, or used to. If you sit next to China, it's going to be hard to have sanctions that really hurt your economy because you're going to get all that extra business just because you have to - because you're sitting next to a giant economy that's, you know, pumping away. So I - you know, I don't know there's a lot that we can do here. What occurs to me, though, is, it's such a bizarre story and it's not as if this is the first time someone's threatened a corporation. I'm sure there are times when cyber - or hacker people have threatened corporations and the corporations -

BALDWIN: All the time, I'm sure here as well, but they got away with it. When you see what they did to Sony.

WALSH: I know. Exactly. I've never seen anything this -- I'm sure people have written checks to make this go away in the past. But this one is so public, in some ways it doesn't matter who did it because the object lesson to all of us who are watching is the same, oh my God, they got away with it.

BALDWIN: Totally. And could it happen to me? Jim Walsh, you were fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on.

WALSH: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, we'll take you back to what's happening with Sony in a minute, but we have to talk Cuba. The thawing of the U.S./Cuban relations sparking a shift in decades and decades of policy. Former secretary of commerce under President George W. Bush, Carlos Gutierrez, is joining me next live. You know his family left Cuba when he was just six years of age. Hear why he is cautious about this deal. Plus, his thoughts on President Obama's aggressive strategy in the weeks following all of these wins. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You know, we marveled out loud at how the U.S. government managed to keep the lid on those super-secret talks with Cuba all those many months. The talks that won the release of Alan Gross as part of this landmark deal to restore full relations between Washington and Havana. We'll get to this.

But this is a great detail. To make sure that this deal didn't leak at the last minute, you had these U.S. diplomats down in Havana, they apparently tossed some huge party Tuesday night for reporters to make sure the press would be out late drinking and not sniffing around for scoops. May or may not have been a tough sell as far as those journalists go. Let's go to Washington. Let me bring in Cuban-born Carlos Gutierrez.

Carlos Gutierrez, businessman, public servant, served in the presidential cabinet under George W. Bush. He served as secretary of commerce.

Mr. Secretary, a pleasure to have you on.

CARLOS GUTIERREZ, FORMER COMMERCE SECRETARY: A pleasure. Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: We will, obviously, get to the politics of this in just a moment. But first, just personally for you, I mean, you know, your family left Cuba when you were six. Have you been back at all? And, you know, if not, you know, when private citizens can finally go, would you take the trip?

GUTIERREZ: I haven't been back and I would love to go back when someone with the last name of Castro is not in charge. You know, I'd like to go back under a Cuba that is not a repressive communistic dictatorship.

BALDWIN: OK. So on that note about the Castro family, let me play this for you. This is a reaction, obviously the reaction from Republicans that's pouring in. You, sir, are a Republican. You know, this appears to be blanket opposition to this whole notion of burying the hatchet with Havana.

GUTIERREZ: Yes.

BALDWIN: You have Senator Marco Rubio, son of Cuban immigrants, he is leading the way on this one. Here he was on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: The mistake has to do with the unilateral concessions to the Cuban government. Let's run through the list of it. Full diplomatic relations. That means the recognition of the Cuban government's legitimacy. The opening up the banking sector. More telecommunications. Higher remittances. A whole series of things that truly undermine the sanction regime that's in place against the Cuban government for being a tyranny.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So that was Senator Rubio.

GUTIERREZ: Yes.

BALDWIN: I hear you saying, you know, you're not going back until a Castro is not in charge. You're cautious. Tell me why.

GUTIERREZ: Yes, but, here's the thing, Brooke. And I, you know, I don't want to get personal and emotional about this. I try to look at it from an historical point of view and a factual point of view. The Cubans got a major victory yesterday. They won this round of negotiations.

BALDWIN: How so?

GUTIERREZ: They are - they are getting, you know, diplomatic recognition by the U.S., remittances are going up, so they'll have some economic relief now that Venezuela is suffering. They're going to have more telecom if they want it. Those three spies that we released in Cuba, they were -- there used to be five. In Cuba they were known as the five heroes. This is a campaign that's been going on for 15 years. Bring back the five heroes. Yesterday they got the three heroes. So when we heard people in Havana celebrating, they were celebrating the return of their three heroes, not that they're now friendly with the U.S.

I'm very pleased that we have Alan Gross. He shouldn't have been in jail in the first place. But he was used as a pawn in these negotiations. But I can assure you, the Cubans are laughing and they are celebrating. They got everything they wanted. We got nothing but promises. And we'll have to keep our eye on those promises to see what is delivered.

BALDWIN: You know, as part of the White House daily briefing today, Josh Earnest mentioned the possibility of the president bringing President Castro to Washington. Do you think that would be a mistake?

GUTIERREZ: Well, look, the thing is that there's no question the president wants to make this his China and he wants to open up Cuba and that he wants that to be his legacy. The real difference here is that the Cubans are first and foremost anti-American. Their ideology is anti-Americanism. Why would they want to strategically improve relations with the U.S. if their reason for being is that they are the people that's going to protect Cuba from the, you know, the Yankee empire. They don't want our friendship. They've proven it over 55 years. And my sense is that President Obama is running a tremendous risk. We can get burnt really bad on the international stage over the next six months, 12 months.

BALDWIN: OK. I hear you talking about the risk, but let me just push you a little bit on the notion of the president's successes because what do you make of the rollout of this whole lame duck Obama presidency? I mean since his midterm defeat, he has pressed ahead on immigration reform, you bring up China, he's dealt with China, climate change, you know, he has Putin now on the defensive and now this deal with Cuba. As a Republican, do you marvel at that or do you worry?

GUTIERREZ: No, -- no, not all, I don't - no, the thing is, is, look --

BALDWIN: Which one? You marvel or you're worried?

GUTIERREZ: I - well, why don't we say both, OK?

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

GUTIERREZ: But, you know, here's the thing on Cuba. This is something that can be undone with a stroke of a pen. The Cubans know that. And the Cubans --

BALDWIN: You mean the embargo?

GUTIERREZ: No, no, no, this executive action the president announced last night. You know, a new president can take it out. The Congress is going to be giving him a hard time. Congress will probably not confirm a nominee for ambassador to Cuba. So that will give the Cubans an excuse to say, well, we designated an ambassador but you didn't. You broke the agreement. And once again, we are back at it. But in the meantime, they pocketed all of their victories. And, Brooke, have me on in six months and we'll be able to talk about how this is happening.

BALDWIN: OK. OK. Either we can say you were wrong or you told me so, Carlos Gutierrez.

GUTIERREZ: Thank you.

BALDWIN: I look forward to that. I'll see you in six months, sir. Thank you so much, in Washington.

GUTIERREZ: Appreciate it. Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, tears, screams, and an outburst. Hear all these details inside this federal courthouse here as accused Boston bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was in the court today. That is next.

Plus, Russian President Vladimir Putin with a three-hour long press conference. He said Russia needs to, quote, "avoid becoming a chained bear," and you know he didn't stop there. More details. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)