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Two NYPD Officers Shot, Killed in Patrol Car; North Korea Blasts U.S. For Tying Hack to Pyongyang; North Korea Warns U.S. of "Serious Consequences"; Sony Responds to Obama's "Sony Made Mistake" Comment; Movie Theaters Refuse "The Interview"; 2 NYPD Officers Shot
Aired December 20, 2014 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, breaking news, I'm Martin Savidge in New York. Let's get to what we have. Two New York City police officers in uniform and sitting in their NYPD patrol car were shot in what is described as ambush style today in Brooklyn. We are now told that both officers were shot in the head and both have died from their wounds. We're also told the suspected gunman has been found dead. Here's how one of the witnesses described the scene.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No, she just told me that, you know, they got shot in the car, whatever, they were sitting there. But my whole thing is we got to take back our communities. This can't happen. If you mad at somebody, be mad at the person that you're mad at. Now we have two families that missing somebody for the holidays, regardless of what, where's your humanity. Like I know there's a war going on and shots to Eric Garner's family and everybody also lost somebody but you're not at his house or his lawn. You don't even know if they were good or bad. I don't condone this and I'm not with it. I'm not with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: Again, repeating two New York police officers have been shot dead. It's a fast-moving story so let's get more now from our CNN producer Shimon Prokupecz. And Shimon, take us through exactly what we know of what happened.
SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN PRODUCER: Well, we know that the two officers were sitting in there, you know, marked NYPD patrol car when a gunman, you know, for no apparent reason came up to the car and started firing shots. Fired several shots hitting both officers in the head. One, you know, was instantly critically injured. The other was seriously injured. And, you know, the gunman was later found dead. But you know, by all accounts it just appears to be a complete, you know, ambush-style shooting. These officers were not, you know, in any way looking for this man. We're not engaged with this man in any way.
But he just came up to them and started firing at them. Started shooting at them. And really leaving the officers no chance it appears to respond to fire at him. You know, but we're waiting to hear exactly more on sort of the sequence of events.
But, you know, these officers were just sitting in their car, you know, in this Brooklyn neighborhood, you know, which has seen, some you know, some crime but has seen some drastic reduction in crime, you know, recently. And, you know, just by all accounts a very tragic, tragic day for the NYPD which has been under a lot of scrutiny lately and this certainly, you know, couldn't come at a worse time for them.
SAVIDGE: Right. And that raises the question, I wonder was anything said. Did any witness hear anything that might have given us a mindset of the shooter?
PROKUPECZ: No. There doesn't appear to be right now, you know, early on when I spoke to a law enforcement official here in New York, you know, he indicated that they were just sitting in their cars and they were ambushed. Like, nothing was said. It's not clear, you know, yet if the shooting occurred from the back of their vehicle, the side, the front. How exactly, you know, where the suspect fired the gun from. But, you know, you can tell by, you know, certainly some of the sources that I've been talking to that these officers were just ambushed. They were just sitting there patrolling, you know, going through the neighborhood. They were sort of in a -- what a -- sort of critical response kind of vehicle. They sort of responded to different kind of, like, crimes in the neighborhood. And, you know, that's basically all they were doing. They were just doing their job sitting in their car.
SAVIDGE: All right, Shimon. We'll ask you to stand by.
PROKUPECZ: The suspects did come here from Baltimore, so, you know, that -- the police are still trying to learn more about him and have made some progress in learning about him and, you know, are starting to formulate a theory as to why this happened but it's not anything that they're ready to publicly discuss right now.
SAVIDGE: OK. Interesting where he came from. Shimon Prokupecz, CNN producer on the scene there. He'll continue to keep us posted.
I want to bring in Harry Houck, he's a former New York police officer. And first of all, I guess, we should express our condolences to the police force and definitely the families of the officers. Harry, you must hear something. What is being said from fellow officers? Is this a random incident or something else?
HARRY HOUCK, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE OFFICER: Well, you know, what I'm hearing from my contacts is that the shooter had killed himself and that he was wanted in Baltimore for another killing and when he was in Baltimore, he had said that he was going to go up to New York and kill a cop and apparently he got his wish. And what really has me upset is all these demonstrations that we've been having here all been predicated on lies. No justice, no peace. We have two dead police officers. And I guess Al Sharpton got what he wanted.
SAVIDGE: Your feeling is, of course, that the protest in some way incited this man to do what he did. HOUCK: Oh, there's no doubt about it. Everybody is talking about
killing a cop. You got to take a cop out for Eric Garner. This is -- this is why this person was motivated to do this. There's no doubt in my mind. I was a detective for 27 years and, believe me, that was definitely in this man's mind.
SAVIDGE: We should point out Harry Hawk is a former New York police officer and as yet, I don't believe that information as to the motive has been verified as yet but I certainly understand why you express the feelings you do. Let me ask you this, you know, there is a great deal of friction between the police department and the mayor of New York City. How is that going to impact, say, the next coming days? I'm thinking about, of course, a funeral and also talk of investigation.
HOUCK: Well, I tell you what, if those two officers signed that piece of paper saying if they were killed in the line of duty that they didn't want the mayor to show up, the police department and the officers are not going to want the mayor to show up because the mayor did not show, you know, any kind of real leadership by backing his police department at all.
SAVIDGE: All right. Harry, how long do you think it is going to take for the department to figure out exactly what happened here?
HOUCK: Well, it's probably not going to take too long. It looks like the perpetrator's now dead. They're just probably cleaning up a lot of the information that they're getting I'm hearing. They're probably in contact with Baltimore PD trying to find out more about the perpetrator in this case. And we should know probably by morning probably just about everything we need to know.
SAVIDGE: And the information you have regarding the suspect from Baltimore and the threats made, when did all that happen?
HOUCK: Well, apparently it had happened sometime tonight or sometime yesterday as far as -- I don't know the exact time when that information came through. But I did call my contacts in the department to try to find out some information about it and that's the information they had given me and the police department was still working on it.
SAVIDGE: I mean, clearly we would all want to know how is it possible that a suspect, then, would be on the loose to come to New York to carry out an attack as is believed to have happened.
HOUCK: Right. So I'm only assuming that he had just probably committed that shooting and made his way up here and then he -- even though he was wanted, of course, you know, the police were probably on his trail probably had no idea he was on his way up here.
SAVIDGE: The fact that the shooter killed himself, does that tell you anything about an insight into mindset or why he did what he did?
HOUCK: Well, he probably -- I mean, I don't know about that killing in Baltimore, you know, how he was related to that. You know, like I said, this hasn't -- I just got this information from people that I know still on the job.
SAVIDGE: Right.
HOUCK: But I guess it was in -- it was probably his intention to kill himself anyway so he probably figured in his mind, well, let me take out two cops or a cop or so and he saw a target when he made his way up here. And now we've got two dead police officers.
SAVIDGE: All right, Harry. Thank you very much. Harry Houck is a former New York police officer and I want to now bring in Mike Isaac. He is a witness. He lives just a short distance away from where this happened. Mike, what do you know?
MIKE ISAAC, WITNESS (on the phone): Hey there. So, yes, I live probably about a block from where the shooting occurred. And right now the police have blocked off a few square blocks around the myrtle, Willoughby subway stop in Bed-Stuy. And I talked to two witnesses earlier who said that shortly after the shooting there was a train coming in underground and police came into the station and held everyone for about 30 to 45 minutes while they were looking for this shooter. Right now things have pretty much died down except for, you know, they still have a lot of -- a lot of the area blocked off and local police aren't really speaking to reporters or passersby at the moment.
SAVIDGE: Mike Isaac joining us on the telephone talking about the scene where the shooting took place. To remind our viewers, two New York City police officers have been shot dead. Reportedly while sitting in their police car. It was described as an am bush-style shooting with both officers shot in the head. Michael, what is the feeling in the neighborhood there? I imagine people are horrified.
ISAAC: Yes. It's pretty -- people are pretty shaken up. I was just in a bodega across the street from where everything is blocked off and, you know, the mood is pretty -- pretty freaked out, you know, a few people were saying, you know, it could be anyone. The -- it's been sort of strange around here. Pretty tense since the protests have been occurring in New York City. And so, you know, everyone's pretty shaken up and just trying to figure out what happened. A lot of people can't get back to their home. I'm actually not able to get into my house right now where it's sort of blocked off by the police. But, you know, it's -- everyone's a little bit freaked out down here.
SAVIDGE: And for those who don't necessarily know this neighborhood, outside of New York, how would you describe it?
ISAAC: Yes, so I mean, you know, it's -- it's a pretty -- Bed-Stuy is a pretty sprawling area. You know, predominantly African-American. You know, the Marcie project's right down here. And there's been a pretty good police presence though here for the past year. So -- and I haven't, you know -- at least since I've lived here there have not been a lot of crimes near me. But it's pretty sprawling. And right now it's been a little tense. One man in the liquor store that I was in a minute ago was just talking about how tense relations have been lately, again, since the protests have been happening in Manhattan after the Ferguson -- the incidents in Ferguson occurred recently. SAVIDGE: Right. And the grand jury ruling on Eric Garner and the
decision not to go forward with prosecution.
All right, Mike Isaac, thank you very much. A witness in the neighborhood where the shooting took place. And, again, two New York City police officers in uniform and sitting in their NYPD patrol car were shot ambush style today in Brooklyn. We are told both officers were shot in the head and both have now died from their wounds. We are also told that the suspected gunman has been found dead. We'll continue to follow this and throughout the hour. We will bring you the latest information as this story unfolds. In the meantime we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: Hello, I'm Martin Savidge in New York where the news is breaking out of the city. Two New York City police officers in uniform sitting in their NYPD patrol car were shot in what was described as ambush style today in Brooklyn. We are told that both officers were shot in the head and both have died from their wounds. We're also told that the suspected gunman has been found dead. Here's how one witness described the scene.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No, she just told me that, you know, they got shot in the car, whatever, they were sitting there. But my whole thing is we got to take back our communities. This can't happen. If you mad at somebody, be mad at the person that you're mad at. Now we have two families that missing somebody for the holidays, regardless of what, where's your humanity. Like I know there's a war going on and shots to Eric Garner's family and everybody also lost somebody but you're not at his house or his lawn. You don't even know if they were good or bad. I don't condone this and I'm not with it. I'm not with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: We want to bring in now Tom Fuentes who is our CNN law enforcement correspondent and analyst, and he is joining us from Washington, D.C.? Tom, certainly, this has to be looked at in the troubling framework of demonstrations that have been held largely against the police department. Have you heard anything as to possible motive or where this investigation might begin?
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT (on the phone): No, Martin. You know, they don't have the specifics yet that they want to put out, but just in general, if it turns out to be related to, you know, what's been going on in the news the past few months, this is something friends of mine in law enforcement especially uniform police officers have been almost bracing for because there has been so many people expressing so much anger at the police that even if the -- even if the peaceful protesters didn't express or didn't carry out any kind of a physical act, they were worried that someone or someones would be inspired to do it. And figure that police officers are fair game right now to kill, that
they're the enemy. They've taken over. They've taken over our neighborhoods and they're hurting our people and killing our people and doing it for no good reason. And that there was no justice in their view since police officers are not going to prison for having engaged in a police involved shooting and shot an African-American. And so that's been the fear that the anger would spill over to someone who would carry out an act and do something like this.
SAVIDGE: Harry Houck is also joining us on the telephone. He's a former NYPD police officer. Harry, I guess I will ask you that prior to this incident, had those feelings that Tom Fuentes just described, the sense in the New York PD, that this was bound to happen, was that a feeling?
HOUCK: Definitely I agree with everything that Tom had said here, you know, officers -- I've been waiting for something like this to happen, although I didn't want it to happen, but all it takes is one lunatic to take that message into his brain somewhere and then go out and commit a crime like this. It's just horrible. And like I said, it's, you know, we kind of --
FUENTES: Can you turn a little louder?
HOUCK: -- this might happen.
SAVIDGE: And, Tom, the reaction is bound to be quick across the country as far as law enforcement, putting them even more on edge. Do you expect that in some way they would be a federal directive or investigation or is this all going to be kept within local police departments?
FUENTES: I think for right now this one's, you know, an NYPD matter to investigate and try to determine what the motive was if they could, if they, you know, can contact people that knew this person and if he used social media and, you know, other means of communicating a desire to kill police officers. And in particular NYPD officers. So, you know, that all remained to be seen. It won't be a federal matter at this point to look into this unless there's a wider conspiracy to kill police officers all over the country. That -- you know, that certainly would be something worth analyzing. But for now I think this is an NYPD matter.
SAVIDGE: It was mentioned that perhaps the suspect had come from Baltimore traveled to New York. Would that in any way change that outlook?
FUENTES: I think even with that, it would still, you know, I think the FBI will assist in any way possible especially with covering interstate leads to do background investigation on the individual. But I think still the NYPD will have the lead in this case.
SAVIDGE: Harry, and, again, Harry Houck is a former detective, I should say, in the New York Police Department. This has got to have an impact on those officers on the street and put them even more at edge whether in New York or elsewhere. HOUCK: Oh, without a doubt. I mean, probably in all the major cities
police officers and police departments are looking at this and saying to themselves, hey, you know, we got to make sure our officers are especially vigilant right now because we don't know what's going to happen. Do I think this is going to be a trend? I hope to God it's not. You know, and I don't think that this guy's part of any kind of a conspiracy, you know, based on the information that I already heard from my contact -- so, you know, again, it's a horrible, horrible day for the police department.
SAVIDGE: It is indeed. Harry Houck, thank you very much for joining us. Tom Fuentes, thank you as well. We'll continue to follow developments and bring them to you. We'll take a break right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: I'm Martin Savidge. We continue to follow the breaking news out of New York. Two New York City police officers in uniform and sitting in their NYPD patrol car were shot ambush style today in Brooklyn. We are told that both officers were shot in the head and both have now died from their wounds. We're also told that the suspected gunman has been found dead.
CNN producer Shimon Prokupecz is at the hospital. Shimon, describe if you would the scene there.
PROKUPECZ: You know, it's sad and lots of police officers out here. At the moment, you know, just the streets are flooded with police cars and officers in uniform. I can tell you that family members of at least one of the officers arrived here. They were rushed in, you know, under escort by several police cars. And they're now inside. And, you know, officers continue to gather here, you know, at the hospital in a show of support, you know, for what, you know, an extremely tragic day for these guys. And now we're just waiting to hear word from the police department and the mayor's office on when they will conduct their press conference to sort of tell us exactly how things played out here.
SAVIDGE: Right.
PROKUPECZ: I can also tell you one other thing about these officers, they were not from this local precinct. This is in Brooklyn, the 79th precinct. These officers were here on special assignment sort of from, you know, they're from a different area, also in Brooklyn, but not from this area, so they were just sent here presumably for the day, you know, to sort of assist in some of the higher -- the sort of high-crime areas of this precinct. And, you know, it's just, you know, makes this even more tragic, you know, they were just here. You know, just for the day probably. And, you know, and you know, now they're dead.
SAVIDGE: Right. We should point out that there's been a lot of speculation already made as to what may have been the motive for the attack on these two police officers. None of that has been verified to us by authorities and as you point out we're still waiting to hear from some sort of official communication either a statement or a press conference which we imagine will be coming at some time in the near future. In the meantime, though, you mentioned this sort of special patrol. Is this because of the holidays and just high traffic and also unfortunately more crime?
PROKUPECZ: It's probably because there's maybe, you know, sort of under Commissioner Bratton they've sort of what they've done is they target certain areas where they're seeing an uptick maybe in robberies or burglaries. You know, they call them critical response of vehicles that would normally use and are normally used during sort of an increase in concern over terrorism or sometimes, you know, they use them to -- they call them critical response vehicles but they're officers, just regular patrol officers, that are assigned to this sort of daily response and they go to different areas, you know, usually it's been for, like, for sensitive areas that, you know, that could potentially be hit by terror targets.
But under Commissioner Bratton, what's been going on is they've been using, you know, these same kind of, you know, officers to respond to areas where they're seeing maybe an uptick in crime, you know. So, that's -- we don't know what maybe the uptick in crime is here or why they were assigned here today, but that's normally what these critical response sort of vehicles are called. You know, it's just -- it's just a -- it's just what they're called, but these officers are just daily sent out to different areas sort of to respond to uptick in crime somewhere.
SAVIDGE: Got it. All right.
PROKUPECZ: And also, you know, it's not clear, you know, as we've said that, you know, the suspect, you know, is from Baltimore, so we don't know -- we don't yet know, you know, why he's familiar with this area, why he was in this area, why he chose this area to come here and do this, you know, there's so many, so many questions like that right now.
SAVIDGE: Right. Well, that's why we will stay close in touch with you and we'll also look for the official briefings. In the meantime, we'll move on to other news, Shimon, thank you very much for the update.
And now to another major story that we are following, and that is the cyberattack that hit a major global entertainment company, hit them very hard. Just in to CNN we have learned that the White House has now reached out to China for help in investigating the hacking of Sony pictures. An administration official confirmed to us that U.S. and Chinese officials have discussed the situation and agree that such behavior is unacceptable. Yesterday President Obama said, there was no indication that any country apart from North Korea was behind the attack on Sony pictures. Also today a statement from North Korea. According to that country's state-run news agency North Korea claims it's being framed by the United States for that cyberattack. It is also threatening, quote, "serious consequences" if the U.S. continues to link Pyongyang to the attack and it refuses to team up with North Korea in an investigation. Here's CNN's Kyung Lah.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KYUNG LAH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Just hours after President Obama lands in Hawaii for the Christmas holiday -- the regime lashes out via its state-run television with all of its usual bluster, the regime slams the U.S. government's investigation of the Sony hack as childish. That North Korea is being framed. Saying it can prove its innocence without using any torture methods like the American CIA. Those digs come in response to President Obama. That the evidence points to Pyongyang.
PRES. BARACK OBAMA (D), UNITED STATES: They caused a lot of damage. And we will respond. We will respond proportionally and we'll respond in a place and time and manner that we choose.
LAH: North Korea directly rebuked the President, saying it is the one who should respond after insults to its supreme leader. But adds it will not conduct terror against innocent moviegoers, rather target the originators of the insult.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: You two are going to be in a room alone with Kim and the CIA would love it if you could take him out.
LAH: The movie and the hack at Sony also got North Korea's bank roller and ally China to respond. In China state-run "Global Times," an editorial calls the movie vicious mocking of Kim senseless cultural arrogance and China was once a punching bag for Hollywood but now that the Chinese market sits as a gold mine for U.S. movies, the teasing shifts to impoverished North Korea.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAH: The North Koreans end their fiery rebuttal to President Obama by curiously suggesting that the two countries work together in a mutual investigation to find the real culprits. North Korea saying if America refuses, there will be serious consequences.
Kyung Lah, CNN, Seoul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SAVIDGE: President Obama says it appears North Korea acted alone in that Sony cyber attack and there are no indications that North Korea had help from another country. But meanwhile, North Korea is warning of those serious consequences as you heard.
Joining me now is Gordon Chang, author of "Nuclear Showdown, North Korea Takes on the World."
Gordon, welcome.
And usually, when North Korea, I tend to believe when they do an act nefarious like this, they brag about it. But here we see a very strong denial. What do we make of this?
GORDON CHANG, AUTHOR: Well, they first bragged about it and they gloated about it. The first time they were asked about their responsibility, they refused to deny it. And then eventually a week after that they issued a denial but it was pretty mild. And certainly wasn't of the type that we've heard today. So, clearly there is a difference in the political position in Pyongyang where at first they said, oh, yes, it's almost us. And now, of course, they are taking a very different line.
SAVIDGE: And is it because, why? It's escalated? It's become more serious?
CHANG: I think they are concerned about what the United States might do. President Obama talked about consequences yesterday. Although, he didn't specify them. I think that North Korea probably took a little bit apart from that because there has been reporting that the White House is divided about what to do and that many policymakers are concerned about escalation. And those policymakers are actually arguing for a mild response which, of course, North Korea would like.
SAVIDGE: We worry, of course, about escalation. Is North Korea worried about escalation? In other words, that it could get out of even their control? Well, their concerned, of course, for the survival of the regime, but they are not a wired society, so their calculus probably is that we would be much more vulnerable to cyber attacks. And they have very sophisticated state of the art cyber attacks because they've gotten help and technology from both the Russians and the Chinese. And there are indications that these attacks were indeed launched from Chinese soil with China's help, so that would mean we are facing some of the best cyber warriors in the world.
SAVIDGE: I mean, how do we get to this point where it's a comedy, a movie, a romance, as some have described it, has sparked a very large and dangerous international incident?
CHANG: It's taken decades to get there. For decades, governments, including China's and Russia's, perhaps Iran, have been attacking American companies to take valuable technology and the United States has done very little in response. I think the North Koreans probably believed a few months ago that they were knocking on an open door and that there wouldn't be consequences for what they were doing. In effect, you know, we saw unprecedented attacks on Sony. Plus, also the terrorist threats, so they felt pretty bold. And now I think they might be reconsidering. But yet, we're going to see more rhetoric of this type.
SAVIDGE: Right.
Gordon Chang, thank you very much for coming in.
SAVIDGE: So, who's to blame for scrapping the film? Sony? The movie theater companies? Maybe the government? We have assembled a panel of experts to answer those very questions, and more, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: President Obama says that Sony made a mistake in scrapping "The Interview" from its planned theatrical release. The president weighed in on the fate of Seth Rogen and James Franco in the comedy at his year-end news conference. In a CNN exclusive, we have Sony Entertainment CEO Michael Lynton reacting to Obama's comment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sony's a corporation. It, you know, suffered significant damage. There were threats against its employees. I am sympathetic to the concerns that they faced. Having said all that, yes, I think they made a mistake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: OK. Now I want you to listen to how Michael Lynton responded when he spoke with our Fareed Zakaria.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA, GPS: The president says Sony made a mistake in pulling the film. Did you make a mistake?
MICHAEL LYNTON, CEO, SONY: No. I -- I think actually the unfortunate part is, in this instance, the president, the press, and the public are mistaken as to why actually happened. We do not own movie theaters. We cannot determine whether or not a movie will be played in movie theaters. So, to sort of rehearse for a moment the sequence of events, we experienced the worst cyber attack in American history and persevered for three and a half weeks under enormous stress and enormous difficulty, and all with the effort of trying to keep our business up and running and get this movie out into the public. When it came to the crucial moment when a threat came out from what was called the GOP at the time, threatening audiences who would go to the movie theaters, the movie theaters came to us, one by one, over the course of a very short period of time - we were completely surprised by it -- and announced that they would not carry the movie. At that point in time, we had no alternative but to not proceed with the theatrical release on the 25th of December, and that's all we did.
ZAKARIA: So you have not caved.
LYNTON: We have not caved. We have not given in. We have persevered and we have not backed down. We have -- we have always had every desire to have the American public see this movie.
ZAKARIA: Why not release it online in some form or the other? Video on demand?
LYNTON: There are a number of options open to us and we have considered those and are considering them. As it stands right now, while there have been a number of suggestions that we go out there and deliver this movie digitally or through VOD, there has not been one major VOD, video on demand, distributor, one major e-commerce site that has stepped forward and said they are willing to distribute this movie for us. Again, we don't have that direct interface with the American public so we need to go through an intermediary to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: And you were listening to the CEO of Sony Entertainment. In a moment, we will discuss with our panel, which includes Gordon Chang, Laurie Segall, Ben Ferguson, Mel Robbins, did Sony cave or did they do what any business would have done?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: We just heard Sony Entertain CEO firing back at President Obama for calling Sony's decision to yank the movie "The Interview" a mistake. Michael Lynton said Sony had no choice in the matter because movie theater chains came to him one by one and they refused to run his film.
With me to discuss all of this, political commentator Ben Ferguson; commentator and legal analyst, Mel Robbins; "CNN Money" tech correspondent, Laurie Segall; and North Korean -- but a man who knows a lot about North Korea, Gordon Chang.
Let me ask you this, Ben, first --
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah.
SAVIDGE: -- do you think that blaming movie theaters is the right move on the part of Sony, the CEO?
FERGUSON: One of the most weak and embarrassing arguments that I've heard from a CEO in a long time. There were plenty of theaters out there that are independent theaters that would have been more willing to show this movie. In fact, some of them tried to show other pro- American movies in its place. They said they were not calling Sony, saying they didn't want this theater -- you know, this movie in their theater. Even if you could only find one theater, however, that would take it, you still release it base on the principle that you're not going to be bullied by people and these dictators and crazies like North Korea. I mean, otherwise, they're going to own you forever. And I'm sorry, what happens if al Qaeda or is makes a threat next time we put out a movie about killing Osama bin Laden, are we going to pull it because of one threat? No, of course, not.
MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST & CNN COMMENTATOR: Who's we?
FERGUSON: So why they did it. I have no idea, but it's embarrassing.
SAVIDGE: Wait a minute. Let me bring in Gordon Chang here, too. Actually, let me go to Laurie Segall, first, because I want to talk about the financial investment.
We're not only talking about a movie, we're talking about a lot of money, millions and millions of dollars that was spent. On the fact of Sony here the fact that they two release for free online, which some have mentioned is a way to get back. Laurie, does that make sense for them?
LAURIE SEGALL, CNN MONEY TECH CORRESPONDENT: At this point, they've lost so much money from all the damage done, you could say could Netflix, could Amazon, Sony bought a company called crackle where they can actually stream videos online but this is for free. They're not going to make a lot of money here. I think at this point you also have to look at why pull this on Christmas day. They have some other films coming out on Christmas day, this could be, I hate to say this, a bit of a business decision, too, they had films expected to do much better that are coming out and people are going to go to the movies on Christmas day because a lot of people go to the movies and what happens if people are afraid to show up at the movie.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: But everybody wants to see this now.
(CROSSTALK)
SEGALL: No, no.
SAVIDGE: Let me bring in Mel on this, too.
SEGALL: Thank you.
SAVIDGE: Mel, let's talk about this. There were a couple of movie theaters that -- I forgot the other North Korean film that knocks the dictator, but there were a couple of films -- theaters that were going to run this.
But I guess my point is -- "Team America," thank you.
My point is are we going to start deciding what movies run based on political correctness here or who does decide? If the movie theaters don't want to carry the film, that's their right and Sony really doesn't have much option, do they?
ROBBINS: Well, you know, can we -- you know, martin, it's a great question. Sony doesn't handle the distribution through movie theaters. They make their decisions. But as Ben was talking, I was thinking, Ben, you sound as crazy as the leader of North Korea.
(LAUGHTER)
We're actually sitting here saying that the CEO of Sony is responsible for fighting terrorist threats? Let's keep in mind that Sony --
(CROSSTALK)
ROBBINS: Hold on a second.
Well, but -- but this is a terrorist threat, guys, where the North Koreans have made not an irrational decision, a very calculated one, that moves and works to their strategic advantage to keep their country isolated, to make the leader look like he is a feared dictator that the U.S. will bow down to. It plays right down into his strategic hand. And when this happens to Sony --
FERGUSON: But, Mel --
ROBBINS: -- the White House didn't step in. The media was more focused on the salacious details of the e-mails instead of defending and calling out this terrorist attack for what it was. And I think it's ridiculous to say that --
(CROSSTALK)
SAVIDGE: Hold on, Ben.
ROBBINS: -- that Sony is the one that needs to fight this.
SAVIDGE: Ben, before you jump in, let me bring in Gordon Chang, too, as part of this discussion.
And let me ask you this. How would Hollywood have reacted, Gordon, before 9/11, because that changed everything?
CHANG: It certainly changed everything. And, you know, nobody outside of North Korea likes what Sony did. But on the other hand, Sony is not responsible for defending the liberty of the American people. That's the job of the federal government. And actually the federal government created a situation by bad policy over the course of decades that really made Sony have an impossible decision, and that's what we see here. You know, Sony is there to make money. It's not to be a defender of us. And I think that, at the end of the day, we are going to see companies make the same decision when we see escalatory cyber attacks against others.
SAVIDGE: It's a capitalist society.
Ben, go ahead.
FERGUSON: Let me get this straight. Is this the new policy that we're going to have -- this is why I say Sony are cowards for not releasing this. If we had "Zero Dark 30" coming out or "Top Gun," if Russia would have made a threat because we shot down a MIG 28 in "Top Gun," would we have pulled the movie? Of course, not. We would not pull "Zero Dark 30" if al Qaeda or ISIS made a threat. We have a new movie coming out this Christmas about America's deadliest sniper. If al Qaeda makes a threat, are we going to pull it from the movie theaters? No. That's why it's so insane.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: You don't allow yourself to be bullied --
ROBBINS: I think they would, Ben. Ben. Ben, I think they would.
FERGUSON: -- by this guy in North Korea. You just don't do it.
ROBBINS: I think it's an easy analysis to say that.
SAVIDGE: It's a business decision, though.
FERGUSON: I don't think it's a business decision. I think they are covering their rear end because there's more stuff that they hope doesn't come out that embarrasses executives at Sony. It's about saving their own rear end. It's not as near as much about --
(CROSSTALK) SAVIDGE: OK, hold on a second.
ROBBINS: You have a class-action lawsuit.
SAVIDGE: It's not just Mel and Ben.
Let me stop you there.
Laurie, let me bring you in and ask you this. More is expected to come out. Apparently, threats have been made and more information will be coming. What do we expect to hear?
SEGALL: The hackers posted online, "Expect a Christmas day gift." If you're at Sony right now and you are one of the many people who had your personal information put out there and exposed for anyone to click online and be able to see, you know, you're going to be sitting there and you are going to worry. There's a lot of damage control right now that they're thinking about. So, it's very hard to be so hard on the Sony CEO because he's in a very difficult position. You got to remember the Sony Pictures CEO, his in-box was recently out there online, thousands of e-mails already for anybody to look in the last year. So, you know, these are tough decisions and tough conversations they're having within. There are a lot of things at play here.
SAVIDGE: I agree with Ben to say it's hard for any of us saying we like to being dictated to by another nation as to what, as an American, I can watch. So, realistic, it's likely to happen again, Gordon.
FERGUSON: Sure.
CHANG: Certainly, it is. Because they were successful before with regard to Sony. And so, somebody in Beijing or Moscow or Tehran is going to say, yes, as Ben points out, I don't like that movie. That's why the president needs to do something and he needs to do it publicly and it needs to be effective. He talks about proportional, because he wants to avoid escalation. But there will be escalation in any event. We got to understand that.
SAVIDGE: Mel, let me ask you, Mel, what would be the right response from the United States to something like this?
ROBBINS: I would like to see us hack the national television network at North Korea with an actual message from the president accusing the dictator of -- of hacking.
(LAUGHTER)
FERGUSON: We agree on that.
ROBBINS: Let's fight fire with fire, Ben.
SAVIDGE: That's a good one. I like that.
FERGUSON: Yeah. SAVIDGE: Add that to the suggestion box or some other appropriate programming we can interject.
But to that point, I think the fear has been that this movie might in some way be seen by the public over there. Isn't that one of the reasons been given, Gordon, the regime didn't want it seen.
CHANG: Yes. And they're not worried about the theoretical release. North Koreans are not going to go to your AMC in Omaha. But they might see a DVD that has been lofted over the demilitarized zone that separates the two Koreas. And South Korean activists have said they're going to do that. And one of the things we can do is, one way or another, make sure that North Korean citizens see that movie and see it often.
SAVIDGE: There's got to be some way this gets out on the Internet. Somebody has got to have it --
(CROSSTALK)
SEGALL: Oh, yeah. I mean, coming from someone who covers hackers all of the time, and looks in these dark corners of the web, this will get out there in the Internet. Someone will leak this. And the ability to have this -- they have these balloon drops in North Korea, from South Korea to North Korea. I've spoken to one of the guys from the Human Rights Foundation who plans, if he is able to get his hands on this, to do this. So this is a reality. And you can see this it is a very tight-knit community, that you can see why they would be afraid to have this land there. But I think, Martin, there is a high probability that it could land on -- in North Korea.
SAVIDGE: And, Ben, you would be the first in line to go see this, I take it.
(LAUGHTER)
FERGUSON: Yeah. I mean, and not only that, I'm reminded of -- remember a week ago when the prime minister of Australia came out and he told people to go about their business and go about their day. He didn't say, "Never go to a coffee shop again." That's the issue here. When you have a threat, they -- more people are going to use this to their advantage. And it may not be North Korea next time. It may be another group. You can't just start pulling movies and having others dictate. And Sony should know better.
And, again, I really think for them this is strictly about they do not want to be embarrassed anymore than they already have been. And there are things they don't want to come out to the public that could hurt their relations with actors, with directors, and others. And so this is about their bottom line. I don't think it's about them worrying about the $40, $50 million they lose on this film. It may be about the bigger ones to come. And that's not good enough reason to pull it when dealing with terrorists.
SAVIDGE: We'll stop right there for the moment. This is not the end of the conversation. But in the meantime, we will take a break from it just so we can
update you on some other news. And there's breaking news tonight that is coming tragically from New York. Two police officers shot and killed in an ambush-style attack here in the city, actually Brooklyn. We'll have a live report with details, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: Back to the breaking news from New York City. Two police officers are dead tonight after being shot in the head as they sat in their patrol car. The officers were ambushed in Brooklyn by an assailant who was later found dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.
And we are now hearing from other members of the police force. There is this tweet from the 122nd Precinct that came across a short time ago: "Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the officers shot today and to all the members of the 84th Precinct," unquote.
Michael Daly, correspondent for "The Daily Beast," joins us on the phone.
Michael, what have you found out?
MICHAEL DALY, CORRESPONDENT, THE DAILY BEAST (voice-over): Well, they are two officers from the 84th Precinct, downtown Brooklyn, which is kind of a more gentrified part of the city, and they were assigned out in the 79th Precinct today. Just before 3:00, they're sitting in a marked police car, the two of them. And the gunman walked up behind and just started shooting, fatally wounding both of them. He then fled a block away to a subway station with other police officers in pursuit. He went down into the subway, they went down after him, a shot rang out, and apparently he took his own life.
The officers were rushed to Wood Hall Hospital, but we're told that both were beyond saving.
The police are tentatively saying the gunman, shortly before he went out to do what he did, posted a picture of a pistol on an Instagram account and said: "I'm putting wings on pigs today. They take one of ours, let's take two of theirs. Shoot the police. #RIPEricGarner. #RIPMikeBrown. This may be my final post. I'm putting pigs in a blanket."
(CROSSTALK)
SAVIDGE: OK, let me just stop you there, as we work to verify that information. Plus, we have to reset for the top of the hour. So please don't go anywhere.
In the meantime, we'll continue to keep you updated on this double shooting. And we'll have a live report from the hospital. All of that continuing after this.
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