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At This Hour

North Korea Warns It Will Blow Up "Citadels"; Lone Wolfs Hard to Detect; Suzan Johnson-Cook Talks Race, Religion, Respect.

Aired December 22, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't think it was an act of war. I think it was an act of cyber vandalism that was very costly, very expensive. We take it very seriously. We will respond proportionally.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: President Obama with a decidedly toned down description of the massive cyber attack on Sony Pictures. Comments that were made before North Korea's latest threats and they were doozies. The rhetoric now for North Korea? Anything but toned down. Pyongyang insisting it was framed for the hack, but strangely enough, threatening much worse than what happened to Sony, blaming the United States government for making the movie "The Interview," that mothballed comedy about the assassination of Kim Jong-Un, yes, blaming the American government for creating the movie and then issuing this warning: "The army and people of the DPRK are fully ready to stand in confrontation with the United States in all war spaces, including cyber warfare space, to blow up those citadels." And it went on to list the citadels as being the Pentagon, White House, et cetera, et cetera. Not small threats.

So joining me now is Christian Whiton, a former State Department senior advisor.

These sound like pretty strong words, albeit with questionable grammar, which is typically the rhetoric that we get when North Koreans make threats. But, look, launching a cyber attack back at North Korea? Effectively going to cyber war with North Korea? Do you think that's a wise idea?

CHRISTIAN WHITON, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT SENIOR ADVISOR: I think so. You mentioned how significant the damage is. It's not just the damage to one company, although it that that is significant but putting a chilling effect on our most fundamental freedom, the right to spree speech. People will say they'll be tough but you can believe anyone in this town in Hollywood working on a project or a song will think twice before criticizing a dictator. So the president can call it cyber vandalism but ultimately our adversaries are the ones who will assess what had been had been done to us. They think we attack and the nice thing about cyber retaliation is it's non-lethal. We can excel and be better than our adversaries. BANFIELD: I want to make sure our viewers are aware that when Candy

Crowley conducted that interview and got that comment about the cyber vandalism that was prior to this latest volley from the North Koreans ramping it up and suggesting our citadels are going to take whatever kind of blows they can actually muster. So what about the co- conspirators? Because if Russia and China have anything to do with North Korea and what it may have done to Sony, then should the response, a cyber attack, be levied against those countries as well?

WHITON: I think so. People on Capitol Hill are surprised that it was North Korea alone who pulled this off although we take the president and the FBI at their word. But those other threats pose very serious cyber threats. There has to be some point at which we say OK, we're not just going to try and harden every target in the United States but there will be a consequence. I would do this like the classic Cold War espionage. Do it covertly. Don't say you're doing it even if it's somewhat obvious.

BANFIELD: Sure.

WHITON: First target, Pyongyang's electrical infrastructure. But then if there are Chinese and Russian companies involved, targeting them with denial-of-service attacks.

BANFIELD: Well, geez, then now you're making me think World War 3.0.

(LAUGHTER)

There could be those who are very much in support of those. You could be really opening up a messy can of you know what.

WHITON: You can. It's the traditional question of retaliation. Is it more costly if you don't take those steps now? It's not World War III in the sense that it doesn't involve any kinetic -- to use a military term --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: That's why I called it 3.0. That's why I called it 3.0.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

But people can get hurt in different ways. Let me ask you this quickly --

(CROSSTALK)

WHITON: They do. The point is to make it have a cost. It would have a cost. But we if keep standing by, we can't defend every system so by creating a cost to attacking us that would prevent at least nation states from doing so.

BANFIELD: One last word on this, and it's literally 10 seconds. Don't you think we tip our hands in terms of our ability to surveil if you launch an attack?

WHITON: Well, we've already done that, though, because the president's been out and clearly said this is what we think and the FBI explained their process of thinking. So I think the cat's out of the bag.

BANFIELD: It's great to talk to you. Happy holidays, Christian Whiton. That's so much for being with us.

WHITON: Thank you, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Still ahead @THISHOUR, he put it on the Internet for the world to see, his Instagram post, "I'm putting wings on pigs today, they take one of ours, let's take two of theirs." The rant of a lone wolf? Find out why these perpetrators are some of the hardest to detect and inflict more damage than, say, armies. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: The man who police say shot two New York City police officers as they sat in their patrol car this weekend had quite a lengthy criminal rap sheet. Ismaaiyl Brinsley, his record ranged from possession of a firearm by a felon and discharging a gun near a public street to theft and property damage. His own mother said he had a very troubled childhood and was often violent, having tried to commit suicide before. And as we now know, the 28-year-old killed himself after these officers were both shot to death.

Joining me now is Jeffrey Simon, the author of "Lone Wolf Terrorism."

It's hard to say terrorism at this point because that brings to mind what ISIS has been calling for lone wolves to do, et cetera, and this is definitely not that, or at least it doesn't appear to be. I guess the question is this. If you have people who are troubled, and possibly insane by the legal definition but certainly crazy, does it even matter what the message is out there?

JEFFREY SIMON, TERRORISM AND POLITICAL VIOLENCE EXPERT & AUTHOR: Not really. Because, you know, we tend to be conditioned of thinking ISIS or Islamic extremists as the lone wolves but this is the case of showing the diversity in lone-wolf attacks, whether we call it lone- wolf terrorist, lone-wolf gunman, whatever. Here's somebody who was troubled, had an agenda, an anti-police agenda, but if the police weren't an issue, he may have found something else and still committed a horrendous attack.

BANFIELD: How do you make the distinction between someone who's troubled and has an online profile who vents or actually blurts, but distinguish them from the people who are really capable of acting?

SIMON: That's the key problem. We don't have the answer yet, because there are lots of people who fantasize about certain things, will post certain hate messages on the Internet. But what is that tipping point? What tells us that an individual who is having this rhetoric is going to follow through with an attack? In this case, we have an indication because he did commit a violent attack against his ex-girlfriend. But the time span is always a problem. How do you lengthen that span so we have enough warning to take action?

BANFIELD: So the profile this killer had, it certainly fits the profile of somebody who might do this. But here's the problem. There are hundreds of thousands of people who fit this profile. You cannot chase down and surveil every single one of them. And every one of them has constitutional rights in this country as well. Where do we find the connect between stopping these crimes and at least identifying those who have the propensity but not stopping them from living?

SIMON: Exactly. It's that whole balance between privacy rights and constitutional freedoms but also trying to protect society, protect law enforcement officials, protect anybody who can be vulnerable to an attack. And unfortunately, we don't yet have that answer in terms of how are you going to be able to protect society and also allow for the freedom of expression.

BANFIELD: Appreciate you being with us. Thanks so much. Jeffrey Simon, good to have you.

SIMON: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Ahead @THISHOUR, she says our world is on fire, that we are race phobic, religion phobic and respect phobic in this society. In the wake of Ferguson, Staten Island and now police officers killed in Brooklyn, is she right? And if so, what can be done about it? You'll meet her next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There's a long legacy in this country that has gotten enormously better but is still there. And when you look at what's happened in law enforcement across the country over the last several years, that's not news to African- Americans. What's different is simply that some of it is now videotaped and people see it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That was President Obama speaking to CNN about the long and troubled history between police and minorities. Perhaps there's no absolute defense against deranged gunmen and criminals intent on bloodshed and mayhem, but their actions can become much more menacing when underlying sentiment among some seems to condone them.

It was perhaps with that in mind that one of the relatives of slain police officer, Rafael Ramos, offered these words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUCY RAMOS, AUNT OF SLAIN OFFICER, RAFAEL RAMOS: I hope and pray that we can reflect on this tragic loss of lives that have occur sod that we can move forward and find an amicable path to a peaceful co- existence. We would like to extend our condolences to the Liu family also. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Suzan Johnson-Cook is a former chaplain with the New York Police Department. She recently wrote in "The Huffington Post" about learning the three "R"s in school and what needs to be taught today. Here's the quote, "I contend 50 years later that what America needs to function in this world today are three new "R"s -- race, religion, and respect for women. From Trayvon Martin to Eric Garner to Michael Brown and ISIS, a new movement needs to be created."

Ms. Johnson-Cook is also the former U.S. ambassador for international religious freedom. She's also live here with me now.

So I just finished conducting an interview with Congressman Charlie Rangel. We talked a little bit about the sentiment towards NYPD officers after 9/11.

SUZAN JOHNSON-COOK, FORMER CHAPLAIN, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT & FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR FOR INTERNATIONAL RELIGIOUS FREEDOM: I was on the front lines there as well.

BANFIELD: And you know well that almost every single state and city, you could walk through a city in the United States of America and see people wearing NYPD and NYFD hats.

JOHNSON-COOK: Exactly.

BANFIELD: They were beloved. And all of a sudden, here we are 13 years later and the pendulum seems to have swung so far. Can we get it back? Has it really swung that far?

JOHNSON-COOK: Well, yes, the answer is, yes, we can get it back. I remember before that in our classrooms police officers used to come and visit. I remember chaplains in the police department working with the training for police officers because there needs to be a translate of cultures. There needs to be someone in the community and also someone who knows police culture that bridges that gap. That's what a diplomat does. We bring everyone to the table. I had a wonderful experience for 21 years with the police department, but I'm also a community leader, and there is a gap, there is a divide. And so there needs to be an understanding of each culture. There needs to be early intervention for mental health and mental illness. One of the number- one problems in our city, in our country now is that we don't have detection of mental illness. Even the mother of the assailant said you know he's been troubled for all of his life. So we need to look at not only respect for religion and women and for our base, but the morality problem that's happened in America.

BANFIELD: Morality problem?

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON-COOK: It's not legality it's morality.

BANFIELD: I want to show you one instance of a morality check no that needs to be addressed. These were protesters in New York City, the video surfaced this weekend. Listen to what they're chanting. I'm going quiet for a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we want?

CROWD: Dead cops.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do we want it?

CROWD: Now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now. What do we want? Dead cops? When do we want it? Now." That's not a small group. That's not just a few people yelling it from the street corner. That is a protest walking through the streets repeatedly calling for the murder of police officers.

JOHNSON-COOK: That's not what I condone whatsoever. What I proposed to Commissioner Kelly before all of this happened when he was going out of office --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: I don't think anyone condones it. I'm trying to figure out how we get a community that thinks it's OK. How did we end up in this situation?

JOHNSON-COOK: What we need to do is reverse that and show positive thinking. For one thing, there have been meetings with the mayor, there have been meetings with the police department, and there have been people from both sides, but what has not happened is that we come together at the table. What we need to do is bring the community leaders and the police department together. The police department has community relations. The civil rights leaders have their leaders.

BANFIELD: For decades.

JOHNSON-COOK: But we haven't sat at the same table. So you asked the question, what happened since 9/11? Well, a whole lot. There's been a divide. There's not been the community and the police officers sitting down together. So the new mayor needs to bring all the factions together and we need to sit together. Even though there's hostility and tension, we need to have someone who is objective, who says we have to sit down and work this out. I would love to do it.

BANFIELD: You have worked with the top people in this nation. What would you tell Mayor de Blasio? What would your absolute pragmatic advice be to Mayor de Blasio if you had his ear today?

JOHNSON-COOK: Hire me to bring the factions together.

BANFIELD: What would you say? JOHNSON-COOK: I would say, number one, we need to have -- CNN could

be a part of this. Have a faith town hall meeting where people need to vent and say what is on their minds, whether it's hostile or not. There's a lot of hostility building up. Building the faith between the community and the police department once again. I would say let's sit down behind closed doors and look at where we can change policy on the city level, the state level, because people watch New York, and what happens in New York happens nationwide. So let's begin that conversation now.

I'm an ambassador. I'd love to be the ambassador for New York City. Let's get this conversation going.

BANFIELD: Mayor de Blasio, are you listening?

Suzan Johnson-Cook is here and, from what I gather, has a little bit of time today.

JOHNSON-COOK: Has some time, definitely.

BANFIELD: Happy holidays.

JOHNSON-COOK: Thank you. Same to you.

BANFIELD: Thank you for coming in and joining us.

Still ahead @THISHOUR, from Kim Jong-Un's reaction to "The Interview" to Kim Kardashian's asset. The year certainly shaping up to be one for the record books. And one the guys at Jibjab just had a ball when they put out their latest production. Another you've got to see. Be the first of your friends to see their year ender when we premiere it for you right here, coming up next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: 2014, oh what a year it's been. Just ask Anderson and Kathy. They'll tell you. From pop culture to politics, from the tragic to downright bizarre. I know we still have nine days to go before we welcome in 2015. But you know something? It's never too early to look back the Jibjab way. Let's go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Exhale.

The 2014 story may be history almost but you don't have to be clairvoyant to know that it's going to go far beyond the turn of the calendar year. Everyone has an opinion on this, especially in Hollywood, on Sony's decision not to really go forward, fully releasing "The Interview," although that's really in question as to whether they did that. Take Rob Lowe, who makes a cameo appearance in the movie. Here's what he tweeted, "Wow. Everyone caved. The hackers won. An utter and complete victory for them. Wow." But Sony CEO Michael Lynton said, quote, "We have not caved. He said major movie chains just wouldn't show the movie."

Joining me now, Tom O'Neil, the host of goldderby.com; and Bradley Jacobs, senior editor of "US Weekly."

First, Tom, to you. What exactly did it not get released, where can I see this movie?

TOM O'NEIL, HOST, GOLDDERBY.COM: On Wednesday of last week, Sony issued the following comment, which is that we have no future plans to release this movie. Then Barack Obama said that's a mistake. And so Michael Lynton told CNN, wait a minute, we did not cave. That's not what this is about. We're trying to find a way to get it out there but theaters won't show it and video-on-demand services won't.

BANFIELD: But there are all sorts of opportunities, Bradley, to not have hundreds of people all in one location where there can be a terror threat because that's effectively what the terrorists said, go there and we'll blow you up and neighbors will move away for the day. What about a Netflix or Crackle or that kind of a release?

BRADLEY JACOBS, SENIOR EDITOR, US WEEKLY: Well, as of yesterday, reports surfaced that Sony was considering putting it up on Crackle, which they own, which kind of sounds like a brilliant idea to me and sounds like they can make some of the money back, some of the $75 million that they have estimated to have lost on this decision. I know, myself, I would certainly pay $12.95 to watch it in my home to find out what all of the hubbub is about. We have a side bar with what is in the movie, because the movie is just absurd. I mean, you have a guy who plays Kim Jong-Un singing Katy Perry's songs. It's an absurd comedy, which is one of the great ironies of this whole thing. All of this Barack Obama getting involved is all over this ridiculous little satire.

BANFIELD: So this movie sounds right up my alley because I am truly 14 years old, I think.

(LAUGHTER)

In fact, and I loved "World Police" and I hear there are threats about "World Police" and they are limiting the number of eyeballs that can see "World Police." What is next? Is Sony terrified that more fallacious e-mails will be out? It's not going to end with Sony.

O'NEIL: No, it's not going to end with Sony. We need to find out what the latest threats mean. Obama said we're going to respond proportionately, which is why the North Korea said we're going to come after you. We don't have to release this movie right away but what Sony is say is we're going to get it out there. Ashleigh, you're going to see this movie soon.

BANFIELD: Yay. I'm so excited. I can't understand whether North Korea, in "World Police," did not like the marionette version of their leader --

(LAUGHTER)

-- or whether they didn't like the tag line, which was America. I'm not sure which they didn't like more. I love both of them. I hope I don't get a terrorist threat now.

Tom O'Neil, Bradley Jacobs, thank you both for being with me today and happy holidays to you.

O'NEIL: Thanks.

BANFIELD: Thank you so much you all for joining me @THISHOUR. It's been nice to sit in for Michaela and Berman. But I have a whole lot more work on my plate. It's coming up after this very short break. A whole new show, a whole new perspective. "LEGAL VIEW" is coming up right after this.