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Investigating New York Shooter

Aired December 22, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN, top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And we want to begin with what's happening in New York, some say like really never before. New York's finest is at odds with New York's leader and at the worst time. Two of their own, officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos, were assassinated over the weekend.

A news conference is set to begin just in a couple of minutes here in New York at police headquarters. We will be watching for New York's mayor and police commissioner to obviously address the atrocities over the weekend and the response. Right?

Today, we have heard from Mayor Bill de Blasio. He visited the homes of the loved ones of the two slain officers and now all of these officers are on alert for further attacks. We can tell you that at least 15 new threats against NYPD are known at this point in time.

There's no question that this disturbed, potentially mentally ill cop- hating gunman named Ismaaiyl Brinsley killed these two men point blank. We have a picture of him from Facebook. And what we now know, what he did, he made a newlywed bride a widow in Brooklyn. Officer Wenjian Liu just married several months ago. Brinsley also took a father away from his family. Officer Rafael Ramos had two sons.

But the New York police union leaders are also pointing fingers and they are blaming these deaths on the mayor, Bill de Blasio. They say he turned his back on the force, which was under fire after what happened in Staten Island, the chokehold killing of Eric Garner. So some officers in a show of rejection over the weekend turned their backs on the mayor there at the hospital, where crews were transporting the officers' bodies.

This afternoon, the mayor did have a chance to speak and to respond, but he chose to keep the focus on the families of the officers who were ambushed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL DE BLASIO (D), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: The attack on them was an attack on all of us. It was an attack on our democracy. It was an attack on our values. It was an attack on every single New Yorker. I think it's important that, regardless of people's viewpoints, that everyone recognize it's a time to step back and just focus on these families. I think it's a time for everyone to put aside political debates, put

aside protests, put aside all of the things that we will talk about in due time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Once again, the mayor and the police commissioner will be speaking at a news conference just a couple minutes from now. Stay with CNN. We will bring that to you live.

Brinsley's criminal footprint though we have now learned has extended from far beyond Maryland and New York City. He's also linked to crimes in the state of Georgia.

Our justice correspondent Evan Perez has been delving into the background of this 28-year-old gunman. He joins me now from Washington.

And, Evan, what more do we know about him?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, we have new details actually released by the Baltimore County Police Department. As you know, they were investigating this suspect.

On Saturday morning, he showed up at the apartment of an ex- girlfriend. Her name was -- her name is Shaneka Nicole Thompson. At 5:25 in the morning, he shows up at her door. Show opens the door and lets him in and they have an argument over their relationship, which has ended, and he shoots her shortly before 6:00 a.m.

That's when the first call comes. Brooke, these new details from the police department there in Baltimore County really shows you the effort that they made to try to find this guy. They didn't know much about him. They didn't know where he was going. You can see his telephone pinging back as he is making his way up I-95 and then they discover the Instagram posts which are threatening police officers.

And here's some new detail here. At 2:10 p.m., the Baltimore County detective from the violent crimes unit calls the precinct in Brooklyn to try to provide some information about the suspect because now they have noticed his phone is in Brooklyn.

At 2:46, he -- the detective talks to another precinct because they now noticed that that's where his phone is. They have this conversation, Brooke, over a period of 30 minutes. And they send a fax. The New York Police Department asked for a fax with the wanted poster of the suspect.

Two minutes later, two minutes later, these officers are executed at a street corner. You see how quickly they tried to act once they realized what they were dealing with and really how little time they had to try to stop this guy from doing this.

BALDWIN: Sadly, as we all know, they couldn't stop him.

But, Evan Perez, thank you so much for the detail that we're getting from police there and it sounds like quite the record also from Georgia. Thank you.

Mayor Bill de Blasio isn't the only one calling for a pause in the protests and the uptick in rhetoric we have been seeing in this country. Here's New York's governor today on WNYC Radio.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: Right now, I'm calling on everyone, all of the leaders involved to join me in calling for a time of peace and unity and reflection. And let's go to the funerals. Let's join with the families in grieving. Let's honor the holy week and bring calm to the city.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was the current governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo.

With me now, former Governor David Paterson, who was in office here from 2008 to 2010.

Governor, welcome.

DAVID PATERSON (D), FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR: Thank you.

I can't remember feeling this kind of anxiety and physical sickness since maybe the Long Island railroad murders 20 years ago.

BALDWIN: I had a crime reporter basically in tears with me a couple minutes ago who was there on the scene on Tompkins Avenue on Saturday and was talking about the heroic efforts from some of the EMTs to try to -- praying for blinks from some of these officers, to no avail.

How did you hear the news Saturday?

PATERSON: Oddly enough, I was listening to an NPR recreation of "The Christmas Story" with Ebenezer Scrooge and it ends so well when he comes to the home and he's going to take care of Tiny Tim and everything. And I just thought it was so cute.

And then maybe a couple minutes went by and I flipped the dial to one of the news stations just to hear the news and it was just revolting, because the original report was that the officers were shot at point- blank range. So I just said a prayer, but was not -- pretty solemn about what the outcome would be.

BALDWIN: We're waiting. In a matter of minutes, we will be hearing from the mayor and from the police commissioner. There are multiple examples of how clearly that the police, the police union and City Hall are -- it's tense, to say the least, right, these relations.

For people who are not here in New York, I would like to hear your perspective why that is.

PATERSON: I think that this is the mayor's first year. You learn a lot of lessons in your first year of an executive position. Everybody does. I think that a foundation has to be built between City Hall and the

police union. When I was governor, I knew -- this same police union had Pat Lynch. I had already known him on the job for nine years.

BALDWIN: This is the president of the union who has since said the blood of -- is on the hands of the mayor.

PATERSON: Yes. I talked to him all the time even when I signed a bill that he disdained in 2010. And Mayor Bloomberg and Commissioner Kelly, who was the police commissioner at the time, they didn't have much nice to say about the fact that I signed a bill, but they didn't have anything to say about me because I had a relationship with them.

I think the mayor has to realize that you're governing all of the people and you have to reach out to all of them and sometimes -- this is what they also say about President Obama sometimes. Sometimes, you have to sit down and have dinner with people you totally disagree with, but you all have kids in college or something and you all have something to connect with.

And what I see right now is no connection between the government and the union.

BALDWIN: That's exactly what Reverend Calvin Butts -- he was sitting up here, a very well known figure here in the church community in Harlem and New York and he was saying who is Mayor de Blasio talking to? And so he's wondering where he I guess is getting his advice and who he is speaking with, I think, to your point.

What do you want to hear from the mayor when we hear from him in a matter of minutes?

PATERSON: I think right now we're in a sort of crisis period. There's anger. There's rage. I heard what the union head, Mr. Lynch, said about blood on the mayor's hands. It was inappropriate.

BALDWIN: You do agree it was inappropriate?

PATERSON: It was inappropriate. But you have to understand his members are so angry they turned a back on the mayor, which is also inappropriate. They're on duty at the time. It's not a time for a political stance.

However, I think we can forgive everybody who is connected with law enforcement or who cares about the police for anything they say right now because it was such a devastating and loathsome, despicable act that we witnessed.

Somebody wrote on Twitter that I shouldn't have said anything when I expressed my regrets because I was one of the protesters. I think it's the protesters above everyone else who should feel bad about this situation because the protest was to raise public awareness about a specific issue in community relations between the police and the community, not any overall indictment of the police.

I love the police. They protected me for four years. And they were wonderful.

BALDWIN: And so many people though are saying, listen, these are two very, very different events. You have the killing and murdering of these two officers, and these protests calling into question some abuses from justice, but again bottom line quickly, Governor, what do you want to hear from the mayor?

PATERSON: I think what I want to hear from the mayor is what I want to hear from everyone right now. We have all addressed what's wrong with each other.

The real adults will now address what we could have done differently to prevent such animosity at a time we should all be joining together to pray for the families, as Governor Andrew Cuomo so eloquently said just this morning.

BALDWIN: David Paterson, former governor of New York, thank you so much for coming. And I truly appreciate your time with us here at CNN.

PATERSON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Governor, thank you.

We heard from the mayor of New York just earlier this afternoon and, as we mentioned, in a couple minutes we will hear from him again, along with the commissioner, Bill Bratton. What can they say and what should they say to calm nerves for people in this city and really beyond, families of those who the city lost and can they begin to heal this relationship between City Hall and police? We will find out in just a couple minutes.

Also, at least one critic has said, as the governor was pointing out, there's blood on the hands of City Hall. Is that language justified? We will talk to a New York City councilman ahead. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Just into CNN, a van has crashed into a crowd in France, injuring at least 10 people, five of them severely. The attack frightening because it seems to mirror another one over the weekend. Today's crash happened in Nantes, France.

The driver is among the injured. CNN affiliate BMF-TV reported the driver stabbed himself after the incident. Still too early to know if this is related to the crash yesterday. In that incident in Dijon, a dozen people were injured. French media have reported that the driver was yelling Allahu akbar before hitting the crowd.

A man has been arrested in that case, according to police. Also on Saturday, police shot a man who stabbed three officers while they were shouting the same thing.

Just hours before the killing of two New York City police officers, Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos, these chilling words were posted on the gunman's Instagram page. He apparently wrote: "I'm putting wings on pigs today. They take one of ours, let's take two of theirs."

And that is believed to be referencing the recent deaths of Eric Garner and Michael Brown. And although the gunman had a long history of violence issues and mental health issues, the police union in New York quick to slam the mayor, Bill de Blasio, saying blood is on his hands for supporting anti-police protesters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK LYNCH, PRESIDENT, PATROLMEN'S BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATION: There's blood on many hands tonight, those that incited violence on this street under the guise of protest that tried to tear down what New York City police officers did every day.

We tried to warn. It must not go on. It cannot be tolerated. That blood on the hands starts on the steps of City Hall in the office of the mayor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me, New York City Councilman Mark Levine and former police officer Marc Harrold.

Gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

Mr. Levine, let me just begin with you. I know you have been in contact with the mayor's office. You are helping speak on behalf of the city for the most part and so as we are minutes out from hearing both de Blasio and Bratton speaking at police headquarters, you have a sense of their message. What is that?

MARK LEVINE, NEW YORK CITY COUNCILMAN: That every life matters and that we have a responsibility one to another, that the police have a responsibility to treat every citizen fairly and we as citizens have a responsibility to protect police and that all of us need to intervene when we see rhetoric careening out of control.

That didn't happen amongst those looking at the social media feed of the killer on Saturday. And it should have. But there's a lesson there. And I think he's going to try and unite us around what are common goals as New Yorkers. Everyone wants police, cops to be safe. Everyone wants the city to have a continually lowering crime rate and everyone wants to see free treatment of all New Yorkers regardless of color.

BALDWIN: Let me stay with you, though, because we just heard from Pat Lynch -- if people aren't familiar, this is the president of the biggest police union in the city and he's the one who said what he did about blood on the hands being at City Hall and de Blasio.

Have the mayor and Pat Lynch sat in a room together and had a conversation in the wake of what happened this weekend?

LEVINE: I don't know if they have since Saturday night. I will tell you that Mr. Lynch's rhetoric I found to be outrageous and not the kind of leadership we need at this moment, dividing us and not uniting us and frankly not based on facts.

As you pointed out in your intro, Mr. Brinsley was a deranged individual, mentally ill, a history of mental and emotional problems. He wasn't part of some ideological movement. To attribute his actions to the words of the mayor is frankly nonsensical.

I challenge anyone to point to one word the mayor has uttered that is anti-police. He sought to reiterate our city's reverence for the work of police officers and he's continuing that message today.

BALDWIN: A lot of people disagree with that, which you well know.

Marc Harrold, let me go to you.

Just as a former police officer, hearing -- one of the common threads among so many officers is they get into the business because they want to help people. When you see and read about the details, the horrendous murders of these two officers over the weekend, but then you see because of the rift truly between City Hall and the mayor and the police union, and these officers turning their backs really in this act of disrespect not just toward the mayor, but Bratton was with him as well, what did you make of that, A, and, B, what do you think the message needs to be to the city?

MARC HARROLD, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: Well, look, there were similar rifts. I was a city of Atlanta police officer. It was often felt that the city hung you out to dry when something went wrong and really didn't support you.

Look, there are some issues here that have been discussed in a helpful dialogue, whether it's about police militarization or about police brutality. But don't give this killer any credence. Don't give this killer and this act of cowardly violence to be a part of that larger dialogue.

This was an act of senseless, cowardly violence. This did not promote anything. I really don't think we need to put this into a larger context to believe this is somehow in this larger picture. There are helpful conversations we can have. But whether you single somebody out because they're white, or they're black or they wear blue, if you believe in justice and if you believe peace and protest, you have to find these things repugnant.

And, absolutely, police officers are going to react to this. They do feel in many cases, the administration, their leadership, leave them hanging out to dry. I wasn't surprised by the police officers in New York City turning their back on the mayor.

But, again, I wouldn't give this -- sometimes I'm hearing this is almost part of an expressive act, this cowardly violence, this killer as being part of this larger conversation. I don't think we should give him any credit for being part of this larger conversation. He's a killer. And he was a coward.

BALDWIN: Agreed, and entirely repugnant, a perfect way to describe the act. Do you think, though -- I know you're not here in New York on the

force actively, but having been a police officer in Atlanta and say this had happened where you were, how -- would you see this as an isolated incident, some deranged person who came up from Baltimore? And at the end of the day police officer have to live with the fear of dying in the line of duty each and every day.

HARROLD: Yes, absolutely.

I don't mean to say that his actions aren't somehow in his warped mind related to the recent events. Obviously, there is some causation there. But I just don't want to give them any credit as being somehow expressive protests.

But as a police officer, I did lose two close friends to violence, to senseless violence, to being shot and again what this is, is somebody who is deranged, who feels somehow that this needs to be or that this is justified in some way, that take two of ours, we take one of theirs or the other way around.

Again, this is a killer. This is somebody that singled people out because of the job they have. I do believe that these police officers wanted to help people. I think that's what they were doing. Down where they were working, they were trying to help people. This is senseless violence and we can't see it as any type of expressive protest.

It is just -- it is repugnant.

BALDWIN: Mark Levine and Marc Harrold, thank you both very much.

Again, watching and waiting to hear from the mayor and from the police commissioner in a matter of minutes.

Next, how did we get to this point, police under suspicion, under fire, officers turning their backs on city leaders? Is unity possible? Who will heal the sharp divisions in New York? That healing could begin in a couple minutes when the mayor, as I mentioned, and police commissioner here in New York will be speaking with members of the media and ultimately speaking to all of you.

We will wait and hear what they say. We will take it live. You're watching CNN. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Just a reminder for you, we're minutes away from this news conference with New York Police Commissioner Bill Bratton and New York Mayor Bill de Blasio. Stand by. We're watching and waiting for that.

Meantime, in the wake of the atrocities committed over the weekend there on Tompkins Avenue in Brooklyn, the killing, murders of two of these police officers, former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani told CNN today that the mayor, that Attorney General Eric Holder and President Barack Obama have contributed to what Giuliani described as hate speech and anti-cop propaganda. Giuliani accused them of perpetuating a myth that there is systemic

police brutality and said the greatest focus should be black-on-black crime.

Joining me now, CNN senior political analyst David Gergen.

It's a treat to see you in person, though I hate the circumstances. Nice to see you, sir.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to see you.

BALDWIN: Let's just begin with former Mayor Giuliani's words. What do you make of that?

GERGEN: I think they're not very helpful. Rudy Giuliani has I think a terrific record here in New York as mayor, breaking the back of crime, which was extraordinarily high in the early '90s and he did it with Bill Bratton in those early days as his police commissioner.

But I think some of his remarks in the last few days, I think it's goes too far to say that President Obama and Eric Holder have sort of contributed to anti-police -- I think what they have tried to do is to recognize there are many African-Americans in this country who do feel the system is unfair and they want to bring some reforms.

And I think all of us have to approach this with an open mind. Are there better ways to do it? But that doesn't take away from Giuliani's record as mayor and really did have extraordinary results.

BALDWIN: You mentioned the president. I really -- we wanted -- we thought it was worth bringing this up. Candy Crowley over the weekend, we played her interview with the president before of course all of this happened, before these two officers were shot and killed in Brooklyn over the weekend. He was talking. He was asked about the delicate situation he faces when asked about race. Here's the president and Candy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And when you look at what's happened in law enforcement across the country over the last several years, that's not news to African-Americans.

What's different is simply that some of it is now videotaped and people see it. And the question then becomes, you know, what practical steps can we take to solve this problem? And I believe that the overwhelming majority of white Americans, as well as African- Americans, want to see this problem solved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Some critics pointed out some of what I have been reading that the president spoke after what happened in Ferguson and spoke after what happened here in Staten Island, yet he released a statement in the wake of what happened, the two shootings over the weekend. Has the president struck the right tone on this one? GERGEN: I think so, generally.

I think he's been trying -- I don't know what quite more he could say. And I do think that he should appreciate as well that there are very different perceptions of the criminal justice system between blacks and whites in the country. A new CNN poll shows that 50 percent of whites think that the system treats African-Americans fairly. Only 21 percent of African-Americans believe that.

BALDWIN: They believe there are two separate justice systems in this country.

(CROSSTALK)

GERGEN: Absolutely. We need to address those feelings.

I think the president -- I think he's been -- I think he's right to speak up and understand and appreciate the views of African-Americans. I think that's important. I think it's also important that he understand that the views of others who don't agree with everything he's saying and -- because if we're going to bridge the gaps in between us, we need some people who are going to understand and appreciate both sides of the argument and try to see common ground.

BALDWIN: We were talking in the commercial break. I think a lot of times we're talking about presidential politics, right, but this is David Gergen specifically on what's happening here in New York. You taught a class just after Bill de Blasio was elected with Bratton who is back, back as the NYPD commissioner.

And I'm wondering, you know, these rifts between city and police, this is not a new narrative, right?

GERGEN: It's not a new narrative. And it's been around, but it flares periodically.

It flared during the '70s.

BALDWIN: It's flared now.

GERGEN: And it's flared big-time now. And I did have a Kennedy School class I brought to New York for 10 days and we talked to Bill Bratton and spent a day at the police headquarters, and, frankly, were very, very impressed with what they're doing and how they got the crime rate down here.

We always have to remember, here in New York, biggest city in the country, has one of the lowest crime rates. We had over 2,200 murders in the streets of New York in 1992. We're down to just around 300 now.

That's real progress. Have the police been too aggressive? That's the argument. And I think you have to handle that carefully. But everybody ought to start with the understanding a lot of lives have been saved by these police tactics. I first thought when I heard those numbers, well, they must have

locked everybody up. The number of people incarcerated is down per 1,000 in New York. They have actually, I think, done a good job. At the same time, there are police who are too aggressive. The chokehold situation that we saw with Mr. Garner clearly I think offended a lot of us.

And I think -- I think, if we're going to have a resolution of this, it's important not only to go to the police commissioner, but to go out to the South Bronx or go out to some -- which I did, go out on some of these legal defender units. And they see something different. They see a lot of kids being aggressively approached by the police.