Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

NYPD Investigates Online Threats; Criticism of Mayor de Blasio's Words of Sympathy; Sony Hires Damage Control Expert

Aired December 22, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

As New York grieves the loss of two police officers executed by a gunman over the weekend, fears of copycat killings have the big apple and other cities as well now on high alert. And the NYPD is not taking any chances at this time. Police are on the hunt for a gang member who posted a threat on Facebook. We learned the man in question lives in Brooklyn. The same borough where Officers Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu were gunned down on Saturday. Sara Ganim is following this escalating crisis between police and the people of America's biggest city.

So, if you could just get me up on the investigation and how social media is playing into it and what they found and where they're headed.

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Ashleigh, this morning, NYPD are looking into more than 15 threats on social media. This according to a law enforcement official. And across the country, police are on heightened alert.

As you know, Since the deaths of Eric Garner and Michael Brown, there has been nationwide sentiment against the police. And here in New York, there was criticism over the weekend of Mayor Bill de Blasio, over his sympathy towards the posters in those two cases, the former governor of New York, George Pataki, tweeting that some of his suggesting that de Blasio's words of sympathy might have led to some violence against police officers, including this horrific incident. The -- one of the presidents of a police union saying something similar over the weekend. And today we're hearing from the governor, Andrew Cuomo, saying it's time for people to cool down. We need to calm down and take a step back and have a productive conversation.

But I want to read to you what he said. He said, quote, "I think we need a cooling off period. This is a holy week. It's Hanukkah. It's Christmas. We are coming up on Kwanzaa. And I think we should take this as a period of reflection and calm and peace and unity."

And, Ashleigh, I want to tell you, too, that I feel that that's reflected here in this memorial behind us where we are seeing members of the community come together. We're seeing police officers stand next to people in this neighborhood and say -- and, you know, I just saw a woman, actually, post a poster on the brick wall behind me, Ashleigh, and it's really quite touching. She wrote a note to Jayden (ph), the son of one of the police officers who was murdered, and it says, "your father did nothing wrong." And I think that really captures the moment here and how people are feeling.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Sara, just before I let you go, I wanted to ask you if there's any talk - and it may be too early for this - but with the threats of copycat attacks on NYPD, are they changing protocols at all? Are they doing anything differently in terms of watching their own backs?

GANIM: Well, they did take some of the auxiliary police officers off the streets. Those are volunteers. Those are not the paid NYPD that we see patrolling. That's the only change that's notable. But Mayor Bill de Blasio is expected to speak today around 1:00. He is at a scheduled luncheon. He has prepared remarks. He'll be there with the police commissioner and also the district attorney of Manhattan. And he's expected to address this issue of better relations between police and the community. We also do expect him to talk about, potentially address this criticism of him and how he's handled these protests and really, as I said, and as you know, this nationwide -- this building storyline of police versus the community across the country.

BANFIELD: All right, Sara Ganim, live for us this morning, thank you for that.

I want to dig a little deeper on to what Sara was just reporting on, and that was about Jayden Ramos. That's the 13-year-old son of Rafael Ramos, of course, one of the NYPD officers who was murdered in Brooklyn over the weekend. There was a posting with the following message on his Facebook page in the wake of his father's death. And Jayden said this. "Today I had to say bye to my father. He was there for me every day of my life. He was the best father I could ask for. It's horrible that someone gets shot dead just for being a police officer. Everyone says they hate cops, but they are the people that they call for help. I will always love you and will never forget you. R.I.P., dad."

On "New Day" this morning, the former New York mayor, Rudy Giuliani, said he saw this tragedy coming months ago because of all the anti- police rhetoric.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: Let's give the police a break. I mean this has been three months of anti-police hatred, rhetoric, anger. I don't hold the mayor responsible for this death, but three weeks ago, four weeks ago I'm telling people, a cop is going to get shot here. All this stuff that Sharpton is saying, all this stuff the mayor is saying, all this stuff Holder is saying, I know - I know law enforcement better than I know anything. Somebody somewhere is going to shoot a cop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton appeared on the "Today" show this morning, saying that he hasn't seen tensions this high in this city for decades. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT LAUER, "TODAY" SHOW: Have you ever seen a time like this of tension and a divide like this in the city?

BILL BRATTON, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: 1970, when I first came into policing, my first 10 years were about (ph) this type of tension. Who would have ever thought de ja vu all over again, that we'd be back where we were 40 some odd years ago. I think this one is a little different, though, in the sense that social media capabilities to spread the word constantly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The sports world is also turning its attention to the two fallen NYPD officers. The New York Yankees will pay for college for Officer Rafael Ramos' two sons. That was first reported by "The New York Daily News." The team's Silver Shield Foundation has paid for the education of thousands of children who lost a parent serving in law enforcement.

And then there's also the New York Giants. Their head coach, Tom Coughlin, showed his support for Officer Ramos and Officer Liu at yesterday's game against the Rams. He wore a black stripe on the shoulder of his jacket. And if you just look under the New York logo, there's a very tiny little peace sign right underneath the New York.

New York Jets center Nick Mangold wore an NYPD cap before the game with the Patriots. Later Mangold said, quote, "if wearing that hat gives a little bit of comfort, I'm happy to do it," end quote.

There was also a moment of silence for the fallen officers before last night's Brooklyn Nets games. That was with the Pistons.

Coming up in the next hour on CNN, New York Mayor Bill de Blasio is expected to speak live at the Police Athletic League luncheon. And you're going to be able to see it live in the 1:00 p.m. hour right here on CNN.

You know, the murder of these two police officers is widening a rift between New York's mayor, Bill de Blasio, and the city's police union. Many police officers say he does not have their backs. So they did this. They turned their backs on him on Saturday night as he entered a Brooklyn hospital to pay his respects to the fallen officers.

And joining me to talk about the divide between Mayor de Blasio and the NYPD is New York City Council Member Jumaane Williams, and joining me on the phone is the president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives Cedric Alexander.

Mr. Williams, I'd love to begin with you.

This is a tough time. There are some people who've said, they've never seen it this bad. There are others who say, it could get even worse. Where do you think this is going? JUMAANE WILLIAMS, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL MEMBER: Well, I wish we could

spend a day or two just focusing on the families, just focus on that son who had those touching words. That's who we need to be remembering now, the father, the husband, the newlywed that were executed.

Unfortunately, people want to continue the politics of it all, so we have to talk about things besides that. I think, when I grew up under Rudy Giuliani, maybe it doesn't count, but there were a lot of communities where it was very tense during that time.

BANFIELD: Why doesn't it count?

WILLIAMS: Because people are dismissing it and saying - and dismissing the tension that was there between certain communities and the mayor and actually some police officers at that time.

BANFIELD: I don't know that everyone's dismissing it. Some people are saying that Rudy Giuliani took a huge bite out of crime.

WILLIAMS: Well, he took a lot of credit for Mayor Dinkins, who put "Safe Streets, Safe Cities" into play. He also opened up the Beacon schools at the same time.

BANFIELD: But what about broken windows?

WILLIAMS: What - if you look at it, and I hear him speak, the national -- we were going down in crime. And in New York City, we actually did more than that, right? But, as I said, Dinkins, before he left, "Safe City, Safe Streets," put more cops on the ground, at the same time opened up schools so that young people had some place to stay. He takes - if you -- on September 10th, Giuliani was disliked universally by everyone in this city. On September 11th, unfortunately, he benefited from that tragedy.

BANFIELD: So let me bring in Cedric Alexander on the September 11th question. I'm sort of on that rant today, or at least on that threat. I had Congressman Charlie Rangel on the set just a short time ago and he brought up 9/11 and it made me realize that there was no greater goodwill for a group of people after 9/11 than the New York City Police Department and the New York City Fire Department. Across this country, Cedric Alexander, people were wearing NYPD hats, and they still do to this day. What has happened? How did that goodwill bleed away seemingly so quickly? Or is that naive to even suggest that?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, PRESIDENT, NATL. ORG. OF BLACK LAW ENFORCEMENT EXECUTIVES (via telephone): Well, I - you know, I think historically, you know, and here again, Ashleigh, you've got to put all of this into historical context, is that since the beginning of policing, there's always been a strained relationship between policing and communities of color, and certainly where communities and police have enjoyed for some period of time, whether it be long or short, some commendable relationship there have always been incidents, particularly, it appears, in New York City, depending on who's on watch in that city where incidents have occurred and have risen to a level of some discord between police and community. But let me say this. At the end of the day, that community there in

New York City is going to heal from its pain. All of us who are in leadership positions are going to have to start using leadership language and stop being divisive and find a way as to how we're going to move forward and heal, help that city to grow (ph) and help other cities across this country heal as well too, because there are a lot of cities that are doing it right, but there are cities that are still challenged.

BANFIELD: I want to read something from one of my favorite basketball stars, and that's saying a lot because I know absolutely nothing about professional sports, other than hockey. It's Kareem Abdul Jabbar. He was referring to the notion that there has been a lot of blame on the mayor. And he says that the killer was a troubled man. And here's what - here's the profound notion. "The protests are no more to blame for his actions than 'The Catcher in the Rye' was for the murder of John Lennon, or the movie 'Taxi Driver' for the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan. Crazy has its own twisted logic and it is in no way related to the rational cause-and-effect world the rest of us attempt to create."

Jumaane Williams, I want to bring you into that - that notion because that seems so right. Until you think about a crazy person who's inspired by messages like we saw released this weekend, protesters on the streets of New York saying, "what do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now." Over and over they marched through the streets calling for dead cops. You get a crazy man, like this killer, you get a crazy message and you put those together and that's bad.

WILLIAMS: So, two things. One, what he said is the key. We have to separate out people - and there's a lot of leading things here, but people who are saying, we want police and better policing is not the same as saying anti-cop. And we have to stop linking those two together because this cause (ph) has to happen and that's a problem. And, secondly, to make that cause and effect, the protesters should never have been screaming "dead cops," but they didn't scream dead women and he also shot an African-American woman in Baltimore and then came to New York. So we shouldn't use this as the way it's been used now. We should use it, the tragedy and their memories to move forward in a better civil discourse with very real issues that many in this community have. This was apparently a mentally unstable person who got a gun that was never reported stolen. There's a confluence of issues that are happening here and it's a repulsive thing that happened. But let's not use it as the football people are trying to. Let's use it to discuss the real issues civilly, as his family has asked for.

BANFIELD: The jumping off point for the big issues. And we could have this conversation for days, months and should have it for years.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BANFIELD: Thank you so much. Jumaane Williams, it's great to have you on set.

WILLIAMS: Thanks for having me.

BANFIELD: Happy holidays to you.

Dr. Cedric Alexander, I know I can't see you and you're on the phone with us, but you know how much I - how much you mean to this program and how we just love having you on the show. Thank you, sir.

ALEXANDER: Thank you very much.

BANFIELD: And happy holidays.

By the way, I just wanted to let you know, we just had this news come into CNN that Mayor Bill de Blasio and the police commissioner, Bill Bratton, visited the homes of Officer Ramos and Officer Liu. We're going to bring you that video just as soon as it comes in. It's a big deal because there had been a lot of criticism that perhaps the officers' families hadn't been given the love. I can see right here, "The New York Post" had a front cover, "De Blasio avoids families of executed cops, stays silent, missing in action." So that's a clear story that was critical of the mayor and now the news that he has visited those families. That's a big development in this story.

And also coming up on this program, on LEGAL VIEW, how the NYPD is monitoring social media. They are on the hunt for threats against police officers. Find out how far they're making it so far.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Sources are telling CNN that the New York City Police Department is investigating more than 15 serious threats to police officers that have been posted on various social media platforms. Fifteen. This in the wake of the execution of two NYPD officers. Joining me to talk about when law enforcement can take action over a threat on Facebook or Twitter is CNN Money tech correspondent Laurie Segall and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson.

First, Laurie, to you. What are the threats? What is being found right now on social media?

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN MONEY TECH CORRESPONDENT: He put quite a big on social media. Let me read you what these cops were looking at immediately after the shooting. An Instagram post, the shooter said, "I'm putting wings on pigs today. They take one of ours, let's take two of theirs." He also put various Facebook posts us right before he left. He said, "I always wanted to be known for doing something right, but my past is stalking me, my present is haunting me. Why live if you don't love to live." So that's where the police are going to. They're going to social media to try to figure out some clues and see if other people are posting about violence and if there's even more of a threat towards the NYPD now.

BANFIELD: Because they can follow that hash tag -

SEGALL: Yes.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

BANFIELD: And they've been able to sort of, you know, scrape down and find - I'm not sure if you have this -- you have this on good job -

SEGALL: Yes. Sure.

BANFIELD: The good job. Kill them all. I'm on the way to New York now. #shootthepolice. Two more going down tomorrow. This is another Instagram post?

SEGALL: Yes. Look, they're -

BANFIELD: But not his. This is someone else.

SEGALL: Yes. They're actually able to follow these hash tags and look and see if there's - what they've deemed to be a credible threat, you know? But if you go on Instagram right now and you put in this #shootthepolice, which was the hash tag the shooter put in, it's no longer searchable, which is pretty interesting because it is searchable on Twitter and it was searchable before. If you go look at Instagram's terms of services, they say that they can make hash tags unsearchable if they're associated with content that doesn't really follow their terms of services. So all of these social networks are trying to grapple with the fact there are more threats being made against the NYPD right now. And how do you do that? That's a very tough thing to do and to monitor.

BANFIELD: But at least - but at least it gives them some investigative tools.

SEGALL: Yes.

BANFIELD: So you take the hash tag down, you take down that tool that leads you to perhaps more dangerous people. By the way, the person who sent this - the person who posted, "good job, kill them all" -

SEGALL: Yes.

BANFIELD: "I'm on the way to New York now. Two more going down tomorrow" --

SEGALL: Yes.

BANFIELD: Did they catch this person?

SEGALL: We know that they've been talking to the person. We know that they have questioned the person.

BANFIELD: But that's it so far?

SEGALL: But that's what we know.

BANFIELD: Joey Jackson, when is this First Amendment rights to rant and be angry, and when is this, you need to come down to headquarters with us?

JACKSON: Yes, you know, and it's a real big problem, Ashleigh, because something called the First Amendment gets in the way. And interestingly enough, the United States Supreme Court is addressing that very issue now. There's a case before it, it's called the Alanis (ph) case, it's out of Pennsylvania. And what happened was is that a person was threatening his wife and it was pretty nasty. And what happened is, is that the Supreme Court is evaluating to determine, hey, when is this a threat? Do you have to really intend to carry out the actions that you're threatening with and to annoy and alarm someone or is it simply that it be perceived as a threat? Now, based upon the questions at the Supreme Court when they heard oral argument, the Supreme Court seems to believing that, look, whether it's social media or any other form, a threat is a threat. A threat is the perception of a threat. Am I annoyed, am I alarmed, do I feel the harassment? And if so, it becomes actionable. If not, then not. But it's a fine line, Ashleigh, between, hey, you know what, I'm expressing what I can express under the First Amendment and what constitutes criminal conduct.

BANFIELD: I don't know if they taught you this in law school, because I didn't go, but there's a difference between, I could have just killed him, and, I'm going to kill him.

JACKSON: Exactly.

BANFIELD: And is it that simple or are there a whole sort of conflict of circumstances that need to be put into a cocktail before you realize that the writer has a lot more intentions that's behind the scenes?

JACKSON: It's a good point, Ashleigh, because I think what you're speaking to is the imminence of the threat, right? How present and clear is the threat? Am I just engaged in musings or ramblings of which I have a First Amendment right? In fact, the lawyer in that case, Ashleigh, compared it to some rap music, particularly Eminem came up in the Supreme Court and they were talking about -

BANFIELD: Yes, he wrote all about killing his wife, throwing her in the trunk and driving it off the - into the water.

JACKSON: Exactly. And that was the lawyer's argument, hey, it's expressive conduct. I can say whatever I want. I'm merely being expressive. And does it cross that fine line what you're speaking about, which is, no, look, I'm eminently preparing to engage in an act, like we just saw, which is despicable, and shouldn't have occurred.

BANFIELD: And sad to see that the threats are continuing. These are, you know, husbands and wives and mothers and fathers and sisters and brothers. Many of them just going to work every day, working hard, putting themselves, you know, in risk, in harm's way regularly.

SEGALL: Yes.

JACKSON: Protecting communities, serving and we've got to bridge that divide, Ashleigh, quickly.

BANFIELD: Not to say there aren't bad apples. There's bad apples everywhere. And this is in every business.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: Laurie Segall, Joey Jackson, thank you.

SEGALL: Thank you.

JACKSON: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Stick around. I've got more for you, Joey, in a moment.

JACKSON: Of course.

BANFIELD: Because coming up in the next hour on CNN, New York mayor, Bill de Blasio, is expected to speak live at the Police Athletic League luncheon. You're going to be able to see this live in one hour on CNN. And given the reactions that he got from police officers over the weekend, this should be somewhat dramatic, to say the very least.

Also coming up on LEGAL VIEW, we now know that Sony is going to release the movie "The Interview," that movie at the heart of all this controversy with North Korea. But exactly how are you going to be able to see it? What does release mean? And what kind of device do you have to have? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: A couple new things to talk about when it comes to sonny and its decision to pull the movie "The Interview" from theaters this Christmas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are entering into the most dangerous country on earth. Kim Jong-un's people believe anything he tells them, including that he can speak to dolphins, or he doesn't urinate and defecate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, you telling me that a man doesn't pee or poop?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody pees and poops. Where would it go otherwise? He'd explode.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But he does talk to dolphins?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ahhh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: OK, if you're human or if you're like me, you really want to see this movie now from all the hullabaloo. Sony now says that theaters are scared off by the threats of violence from North Korea, then maybe, just maybe, that company will look at a different way to release the controversial film.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tomorrow is expected to be a defining moment for the Grant administration as 10th Circuit Chief Justice Patrick Keeting is considered the frontrunner to be named as the president's first Supreme Court judicial nominee. Keeting's nomination would not come without controversy as the more conservative members of President Grant's own party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: You know, I just sort of forget where I am when TV goes on the air. I just love this stuff. Sony, by the way, has hired a damage control expert. You may not know the name Judy Smith, but the character Olivia Pope in ABC's hit series "Scandal," which is what you're looking at right now, is based on her. In other words, Judy Smith fixes things. She fixes difficult things. I want to talk more about these development with CNN's senior media correspondent Brian Stelter, who could be responsible for damaging things by a lot of your reporting, I might be added.

Judy Smith, huh?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Yes.

BANFIELD: Is that going to work?

STELTER: She's on board. She's been helping Amy Pascal, who's been the embattled film chief, you know, at that studio.

BANFIELD: Yes.

STELTER: Amy Pascal's the one who was caught in e-mails to the producer, Scott Rudin, sounding racially insensitive about President Obama. And so I think Judy Smith is among many people helping the studio and Amy Pascal get through this. They actually have three different PR firms working with Sony. Sony's got its own PR people as well. But the fact that they've got three different companies helping them out shows how bad that has been for them.

BANFIELD: The funny thing is, I sort of look at that as the corporate story and, sure, that's a big deal because they - they're responsible for a lot of money, a lot of people being employed, et cetera, and there's a reverberation effect. But I think for Americans the bigger story is, get the movie out.

STELTER: Yes. Yes.

BANFIELD: Don't cave to the North Koreans. You're making us all look like wimps.

STELTER: The chorus is getting louder every day. As you said, there's been a hubble - wait, I can't pronounce it.

BANFIELD: Hullabaloo.

STELTER: Hullubaloo.

BANFIELD: You have to be Canadian for that one.

STELTER: It's a great word. I don't think I can pull that off.

There has been such a rise of this in the past few days. You'll see it all over Twitter and Facebook. People that were never going to see this movie -

BANFIELD: Yes.

STELTER: People that hadn't heard about this movie that now want to see it. So Sony is trying to figure out a way to put it online perhaps.

BANFIELD: So this - but there was this confusion about Sony's not releasing it and then Sony's suggesting it wasn't not releasing it, it was the theaters not taking it.

STELTER: Right. Right.

BANFIELD: And now Sony is going to release it.

STELTER: Yes.

BANFIELD: Are we looking at things like YouTube and Crackle and maybe Netflix?

STELTER: I think we are. I think we are. They did cancel it on Wednesday. But now they say, what they meant by that was, they just canceled the Christmas Day release in theaters.

BANFIELD: OK.

STELTER: Now they're saying they are working hard to figure out a distributor. And I think at the top of their Christmas list is to get this movie into theaters or to get it online. They'll take either at this point.

BANFIELD: President Obama weighed in and said, you did the wrong thing. Mitt Romney weighed in. I think this might have been the cleverest thing I saw, which was, release the movie worldwide on the Internet for free and ask everybody who views it to donate $5 to the fight against Ebola.

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: Brilliant.

STELTER: Could have made a lot of money that way. The studio could still make a lot of money if they charge for the movie. But, you know, that point about donations was echoed by the Republican National Committee. They put out a letter on Saturday urging all the theater chains in the United States to play this movie and they recommended donations to the USO or the Yellow Ribbon Fund in order to make a statement, this is not just about a silly comedy, i's about something more important than that, freedom of expression. I think, though, the online options are probably more promising, YouTube or Netflix. Something like that.

BANFIELD: So if you've got a phone, you might see it?

STELTER: Exactly. And those companies are not commenting.

BANFIELD: Right.

STELTER: So I think something's going on. We'll see.

BANFIELD: Brian Stelter, thank you. Nice to have you. Happy holidays.

STELTER: Thanks.

BANFIELD: Our other big story today, North Korea and the attacks against Sony. North Korea denying that it's connected to the cyberattacks. But now in a very strange twist, and it is strange, folks, they've threatened the White House and the Pentagon and the United States as a whole, all of the citadels. I'll have the details next on LEGAL VIEW.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)