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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Latest on the North Korean Cyber Attack; The Interview to Have Limited Christmas Release; Examining a Milwaukee Shooting by a Police Officer; Congressman Grimm Expected in Court Shortly

Aired December 23, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: And in the meantime, there are some interesting polling numbers that when it comes to what Americans think about all this. There's more than six in 10 Americans say they believe that Sony's original decision to cancel the release of "The Interview" was an over reaction. We got a new CNN opinion research poll and in it 36 percent of Americans said, "They think Sony made the right decision, though, by canceling the movie." While 62 percent said they thought it was an over reaction, but that does not mean that they don't think what North Korea did, and if it wasn't North Korea, was serious. 61 percent of the computing hacking and the ensuing threats are act of terrorism.

And I just want to remind you, if you're just tuning in, with all of this talk about Sony and pulling "The Interview" and then saying they weren't pulling "The Interview" and then "The Interview" not premiering and opening up on Christmas Day. Well, in two theaters, in Austin and in Atlanta, this movie is going to open on Christmas Day. Two independent theaters have said, "We got a copy of the movie from Sony. We've made the deal. We're going to air it," so there, effectively that's what they're saying.

It's the Plaza Atlanta and it's the Alamo in Austin. Two theaters saying they'll go on ahead and maybe that's just the tip of the iceberg. Keep tuned in to CNN throughout the day because if it's just those two independent theaters now, it could be a lot of independent theaters perhaps in your neighborhood throughout the rest of day or at least before Christmas Day. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: After Michael Brown in Ferguson and Eric Garner in New York, I want to turn to another turn police-involved shooting that again is sparking outrage and protest, and this time it is in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. All of it after the district attorney there has decided not to charge a white officer in the death of a mentally ill black man.

The federal government is now looking into this case as well as those others. Our George Howell has the latest on this very latest controversial case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA HAMILTON, DONTRE HAMILTON'S MOTHER: Donte was my youngest son. He should have been burying me.

GOERGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Surrounded by friends and family, Maria Hamilton is speaking out for the first time since learning the former police officer, who shot and killed her son, will not face criminal charges. For this mother -- when you heard the decision of this prosecutor, what did you think?

HAMILTON: I wasn't surprised. We're prepared for the worst.

JOHN CHRISHOLM, MALWAUKEE COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Anytime I have to tell family that I can't bring justice to them when one of their love ones has died, it's always tragic.

HOWELL: District Attorney John Chrisholm says Officer Christopher Manney acted in self-defense in the confrontation with Dontre Hamilton, even though he didn't realized two officers responded before he did to the report of a man sleeping in the park and they concluded Hamilton was not a threat.

CHRISTOPHER MANNEY, FORMER POLICE OFFICER, MILWAUKEE: 46. 1246, shots fired, shots fired. Officer involved.

HOWELL: This is call Milwaukee police officers heard over their radios April 30th when Manney called for back-up. He claimed Hamilton resisted when he tried to frisk him. Then he says they both exchanged punches before Hamilton grab hold of his baton hitting him.

MANNEY: Guy started beating me, start beating. He got my baton. He was going to hit me in the head with my own baton. Shots fired.

HOWELL: Manney fired his weapon 14 times before help arrived, you see him here after it happened.

MANNEY: I may have been hit with a baton but I'm OK. I'm off here now, Sarge (ph) is charge.

HOWELL: The police chief fired Manney for his actions that day, saying he illegibly instigated the confrontation and though he correctly identified Hamilton as mentally ill, he did not follow proper training.

People have been protesting what happened here months before Michael Brown's death in Ferguson and Eric Garner's death in New York.

HAMILTON: It's not just about Dontre in Milwaukee. It's about all the lives that has been taken.

HOWELL: Maria Hamilton believes her son died at the hands of an overzealous cop. In fact, she points to a bizarre incident caught on tape back in 2012. The same officer seen here scuffling with a clown on the streets, police say the clown was darting in and out of traffic, spraying cars with a squirt gun. And that he resisted arrest. Hamilton says it's another example of Manney taking it too far.

HAMILTON: We actually pay their salaries to protect us, to serve us, to make us feel safe. It's a slap in the face to our community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOWELL: Even after the district attorney's decision, we now know that the Department of Justice also plans to step in and review this case.

George Howell, CNN Milwaukee.

BANFIELD: I want to bring in our legal experts on this, CNN Legal Analyst Mel Robbins and Criminal Defense Attorney Heather Hansen.

OK. So, this is a very different set of circumstances and that the D.A. in this case made a decision that many people who've been protesting in the streets were begging for in Ferguson.

You know, why can't we have an independent investigator? I think they were saying the same thing about Eric Garner? Why can't we have an independent investigator? Why just go right to a grand jury? And this time, there's an independent investigator and Mel?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well -- and I think people are still going to be upset because what this prosecutor did is what prosecutors do across the country every single day. They're elected to make judgment calls based on the law and based on the facts of the case.

And they have the division of criminal investigation with state agency conduct an investigation. They filed a report. They even have an outside expert that costs the state almost $20,000 involved in compiling a report. And based on the evidence, based on the law, what the district attorney said, as he said in his opinion, "There's a justifiable self-defense claim here and I cannot overcome it at a trial. I can't prove this phase (ph)."

BANFIELD: Meaning sure, why don't we take this to trial and spend out the state tax dollars trying this guy when I can tell you definitely right now, there is not a case that is winnable and this will be bad money spent.

HEATHER HANSEN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That's right. And this is more than just about the issues that we've seen with Garner and in Ferguson. This man was mentally ill. There's a number of issues that fed into this decision here that was in self-defense, he had numerous marks not only a bite mark on his right thumb, but a baton mark to his neck.

When you take all of that evidence, it was not going to win a trial and this, as Mel said, are decisions that these DAs make all the time. And we have to trust them to make this decision.

BANFIELD: But the problem still is that the trust of the community is not there because in one sense, the community was screaming for independent investigation. In this sense, they got the independent investigation and they're screaming for perhaps a grand jury instead. There's no winnable situation it seems here because the only people who know how to do investigations are trained investigators who happen to be police. HANSEN: The police, that's right. I mean there is an argument to be made that someone from outside of the community completely should be doing these investigations. Here, I think, some of the investigators used to be Milwaukee cops, so there's some arguments that you should take someone who's completely independent perhaps...

BANFIELD: OK, here -- I don't get it, Mel, this is the state agency. This is not the local police division, it is not the -- it's not even the county. They went right to the state level and they brought in a state agency and yes your going to employ -- you got to employ somebody who knows law enforcement to investigate law enforcement issues, right?

ROBBINS: You know, I guess if you take this from the standpoint of the human side of the story and the family, what most people identify with when you hear I want my day in court is an actual trial. And so when you have an investigation that the family is probably not involved with and that they weren't a part of and it's all happening somewhere else, it doesn't feel like you got your day in court.

Is this the right outcome, probably. But this is why we keep having these conversations whether it's in the Michael Brown case or the Eric Garner case, everyone of them is different by the way. But there's perception that it's not fair.

HANSEN: And perception feeds reality. So that's where we have to be as transparent as possible to get through these things so that there's not this question.

BANFIELD: OK. An entirely different case coming up. I'm going to ask you both to stick around if you will, Mel Robbins and Heather Hansen.

Folks, this one of those things that let me scratching my head for while. Do you remember this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHAEL GRIMM, R-NEW YORK: Let me be clear to you. If you ever do that to me again, I'll throw you off this (beep) balcony.

MICHAEL SCOTTO, NY1 REPORTER: I just wanted to ask you

(INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Yes. If you're reading those little itty-bitty words, you see Representative Grimm, a sitting Congressman, threatening a reporter saying, "I'll throw you up the balcony if you ask me something like that again". So guess what, that guy, that congressman is in some big trouble but it has nothing to do with the threat, it has to do with something far, far worse. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BANFIELD: He is the congressman who became famous or perhaps infamous for threatening a reporter's life in the Capitol Rotunda right after the President's State of the Union Speech. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTTO: Finally, before we let you go. Since we have you here, we haven't had the chance to kind of talk about some of the...

GRIMM: I'm not speaking about anything that's off topic. This is only about the President...

SCOTTO: But what about...

GRIMM: Thank you.

SCOTTO: All right. So, Congressman Michael Grimm does not want to talk about some of the allegations concerning his campaign finances. We wanted to get him on camera on that but he, as you saw, refused to talk about that. Back to you.

GRIMM: Let me be clear to you. If you ever do that to me again, I'll throw you off this (beep) balcony.

SCOTTA: Why, why, I just wanted to ask you...

GRIMM: If you ever do that to me again...

SCOTTA: Why. Why, it's a valid question.

GRIMM: (Inaudible). No, no. You're not man enough, you're not man enough. I'll break you in half. Like a boy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I'll break you in half like a boy. I'll throw you off this effing balcony. That is not why this man is in trouble. Instead, Republican House member Michael Grimm is facing the "grimm" reality of a federal bout in prison. Because within the next hour, Grimm is expected to appear before a New York judge and plead guilty to one count of tax evasion. He's also expected to sign something called the "statement of fact" admitting that he evaded taxes as alleged by the federal government in a 20-count indictment. Remember, he's thinking of saying yes I did one not 20.

Grimm was indicted in April, indicted for filing false tax returns, mail fraud, wire fraud, hiring undocumented workers, oh, and for good measure perjury, all serious charges.

Our Tom Foreman is in Washington and back here with me in New York, CNN legal analyst, Mel Robbins, and criminal defense attorney Heather Hansen, who are suppressing smiles that this kind of thing even happens in the first place.

So first to you, Tom Foreman, break it down for me, what exactly are we a talking about in terms of the counts, what is agreeing to and what it will mean in terms of time spent possibly in prison and time spent out of the House.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, basically, he's agreeing that everything that they indicted him for had some truth to it, but he's really only agreeing to this one count, tax evasion, that was related to a restaurant that he run, basically that he didn't report all the income there and the wages properly, and that he evaded taxes on that. That was back several years ago.

So that's what he's agreeing to. Now, times he's going to spend in jail, who knows. Maybe none. It's possible the judge can say, well, we're going to, you know, issue some penalties against you but you don't have to go to jail. Or he could have to stay as much as 30 months. So, Ashleigh, that's really broad range there of where he could wind up with.

Frankly, I'd be little be surprised if he didn't get some jail time out of this. But that's up to judge and judges can off and be quite surprising.

Now whether or not he gets to stay in Congress, that's a different matter. He has all along shown this desire to keep pushing forward even the Republicans have walked away from him and said, "You're trouble out here. You're a problem." He's been pushing forward to take the office and they are very hesitant in Congress to throw anybody out. In fact, the last time anyone was thrown out in Congress was back in 2002, that was Jim Traficant from Ohio. And he had whole bunches of...

BANFIELD: Oh, I remember that.

FOREMAN: ... serious problems.

BANFIELD: That was ugly.

FOREMAN: So, Congress does not like doing this, has a very hard time throwing out any member because effectively they would be saying to the good people of Staten Island, you elected a crook and you were wrong to do so. And they don't like (inaudible) the voters.

BANFIELD: Via landslide. I mean, it wasn't just a little itty-bitty margin. The guy swept in. Let me bring the ladies in here because I know that they have a lot to say about it. You know, every so often we covered these cases of a teenager who does something wrong and the judge says I'm going to give you probation and young man I'm going to make you wear a sandwich board and march around your neighborhood saying "I'm a crook and I'm sorry."

Could a judge theoretically in a situation like this say "Congressman Grimm, I won't put you in the slammer, but you get yourself out of Congress."

HANSEN: I guess arguably, Ashleigh, we've both looked in that during the break and arguably, I think that a judge could but I don't think any judge would. There is a constitutional right for this man to serve in Congress. He has been voted in as you said by a large margin. And so I don't think any judge worth their mettle is going to take that right away from the voters simply as part to the punishment.

The better way to do it would be put him in jail, because if he's...

BANFIELD: Yes.

HANSEN: ... in jail he can't serve.

BANFIELD: But he can. This is the creepy weird thing. Isn't the Constitution also protective of a man's right to serve even if he's serving time? Is it a little bit odd?

ROBBINS: Well, there's a little bit - if he's convicted of a crime for which the punishment is less than two years, that is kind of the wrinkle here. So, he's only facing 30 months. He was facing 20 years -- up to 20 years with all 20 indictments but he's only facing what, you know, his lawyers were saying is between 24 or 30 months. Again the judge has wide discretion. Heather is absolutely right. If you want him out of Congress, you put him in jail because then what's going to happen is Boehner is going to step in and they're going to pressure him. And the thing that I find amazing is that video of him telling that reporter he'd snap in half like a little boy and throw him off the effing balcony, that was out there during the election season...

HANSEN: Yes, yes.

ROBBINS: ... so were all of these allegations that he, you know, cheated on his taxes, filed false returns, paid folks that were here undocumented under the table in cash. They knew about it, they elected him. So I think this is going to about the Republicans saying, "Get out."

HANSEN: I don't think he's going to do any time. You know, he's got...

BANFIELD: You don't?

(CROSSTALK)

ROBBINS: He's a former FBI agent who ...

HANSEN: But that's right. But because he served our -- I mean if you look at it, take away the fact that he's a congressman.

BANFIELD: We'll try that too.

HANSEN: If you look at it, he's a military that he served our country, it's a first offense, he's a former FBI agent. If you weigh all of those things and you look at similar cases of people who are not...

ROBBINS: Then you can also say the other side, Heather which is, wait a minute, you're an FBI agent, you of all people...

BANFIELD: Should have known better.

ROBBINS: ... know better.

HANSEN: Of course he knew better, that's why he hit it.

BANFIELD: Every time I see this guy, I still giggle because I just can't believe (inaudible) with something like. Hey, Tom Foreman, I wish you could have been with us here on the set, it's a little bit bunch fun. Thank you, sir.

FOREMAN: ... I do want to point out one thing. I'll point out one thing, there was a guy in prison in the 1700's who ran for Congress and won from prison and stayed in prison for several more months, so it's not unheard of.

BANFIELD: God bless America, that's all I could say about that. Tom Foreman, thank you. Mel Robbins, Heather Hansen thank you...

ROBBINS: Thank you.

BANFIELD: ... as well.

Take a moment if you will and look at the picture that we're about to show? What, is that French fries with mayonnaise being thrown at the Belgium Prime Minister? What? Yes. How did that happen? And by the way, why is he smiling? You're going to find out next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: So you know how the United States Secret Service was heavily criticized for letting a man jump the White House fence and get in to the White House? Look at this. People in Belgium are probably asking, "What happened to our Prime Minister?" What exactly happened to a security detail may be a better question.

Because that guy was attacked with French fries and mayonnaise and the video may even tell more of a story, take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: They're so polite. (Inaudible) please, no interviews right now. This is unbelievable, folks, that what were you were hearing being yelled is, "Michel out, austerity out." So, while Belgium's Prime Minister Charles Michel was about to deliver a speech, the activists belonging to a feminist organization called Lilith decided to attack him with (inaudible) of French fries.

But there, they like to cover them in mayonnaise because that's sort of what they call a Belgian specialty. This was all in protest of spending cuts and a bunch of austerity measures. Packet of French fries followed by a whole bunch of squirts of mayo and the Prime Minister smiling through all of it, taking it in strike.

He actually broke off his address and changed his suit and then returned.

Look at that. Responding with an attack -- responding to the attack with some good humor after he came back, Prime Minister Michel said, after changing his clothes, "I have to apologize here, I may smell a little bit like mayonnaise." He (inaudible) though.

Police expelled the activists from the hall but Prime Minister Michel won't be filing any complaints against them. And maybe more amazing, they didn't actually get like tackled or anything for that.

Hey, thanks for watching everybody, my colleague Wolf Blitzer starts right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)