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Thousands Honor Slain NYPD Officer; Memorial For Fallen Officers Grows; Remembering Officer Rafael Ramos; Top 10 Media Stories of 2014; North Korea Fumes over "The Interview" Release; Will Obama "Go It Alone" in 2015; New Michigan Law Testing Welfare Recipients for Drugs

Aired December 27, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone, you're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow joining you this evening live from New York City, and this is where our top story takes place.

Tens of thousands of police officers flooded the streets of New York today to honor a fallen brother. New York City Police Officer Rafael Ramos 40-year-old father of two was gunned down in his patrol car one week ago today. He was also sitting right alongside another Officer Wenjian Liu who was also killed that day. Today a moving moment at Ramos' funeral as his casket arrived to a sea of blue. A solemn procession flanked by officers from across this country.

Well, the man suspected of killing Ramos and Wenjian Liu found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound right after the shooting, Ismaaiyl Brinsley posting threats towards police officers on his Instagram account vowing revenge for the deaths of Eric Garner and Michael Brown. Police Commissioner Bill Bratton and Vice President Joe Biden were among those who spoke at the service this morning. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL BRATTON, NEW YORK POLICE COMMISSIONER: We know what it means to take the job, those of us who are privileged to call ourselves cops. No other profession will give you as much or sometimes take as much. The job can reward you like no other. But one day it might demand from you everything in return. For the Ramos family today is that day. And here we are.

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm sure I speak for the whole nation when I say to you that -- that our hearts ache for you. I know from personal experience that there is little anyone can say or do at this moment to ease the pain, that sense of loss, that sense of loneliness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: It was an incredibly moving ceremony and an incredible sight. Remarkable. Twenty five thousand officers that it is estimated traveled from across this country to be there. Hundreds of them coming from all over even from Canada. The mood outside the church shifted, though, when Mayor Bill de Blasio spoke. Hundreds of police officers as you can see turned their back to the mayor, frustrated with how he has handled the protests. Many of them saying he is anti- police.

Let me bring in our panel, we have with us, Juan Carlo Rodriguez, he's the president of the 75th Precinct Community Council in Brooklyn, he's served that post for 18 years. Tony Herbert is a community activist in Brooklyn, Harry Houck is a former New York City police detective. Thank you all for being here. I'm also a Brooklyn resident. I actually live right by the 84th precinct.

Juan, to you, you were there this morning. And I want to share this moment with our viewers and then get your reaction on the other side. An especially moving moment, so let's watch.

The flag there that was on Officer Ramos' casket being handed to his wife. His two beautiful young sons standing by her side. For you, someone who was there this morning, what was it like?

JUAN CARLO RODRIGUEZ, 75TH PRECINCT COMMUNITY COUNCIL: It was beautiful. It was a beautiful moment, but also a sad moment. It was touching when the American flag was given to the wife by one of the fellow officers in uniform. It shows the American people are in support of the family. But we're all sad over the situation that occurred with Officer Ramos being murdered.

HARLOW: Assassinated as Bill Bratton and Mayor de Blasio put it, the night, last Saturday night when this all happened. Targeted for as they said his color, what he was wearing, the color blue as an officer. What do you think as a former detective with the NYPD, Harry, looking at this, seeing this sea of blue? What is your hope moving forward from it? Especially given the divide we're seeing between the mayor and many of the officers?

HARRY HOUCK, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: I think the sea of blue that we all have seen shows a solidarity between all the police officers, between Canada, here in the United States, and I'm sure officers throughout the world, you know. And as far as what's going to happen from here on, how are we going to heal, how is the Police Department and the mayor going to get along, we have to wait and see what happens. I mean, I'm certainly hoping that somehow that we can all come together and, you know, talk about this. And hopefully something good can come out of the death of these two police officers.

HARLOW: So, what needs to happen for that -- as they said today we didn't hear anything political from the mayor, the Vice President, Bill Bratton, the commissioner? But what needs to happen? Who needs to initiate that conversation once these funerals are over?

HOUCK: Well, for myself, I believe the mayor has to do that. The mayor has to reach out. I mean, there's no doubt in my mind, if you see the police officers today, they turned their back on him again --

HARLOW: Some of them.

HOUCK: Yes, some of them did. The police officers are really, really angry about what happened. They do in partiality believe that the mayor is somehow responsible for this. The shooter and some of the demagogues that threw all this information out there to get people mad.

HARLOW: And so, for our viewers who might not be as familiar with this as this story is taking place in our city, some of them feel as though the mayor was more supportive of the protesters over recent weeks over the police. And also making a comment talking about, you know, his son, his biracial son and saying, you know, how he has to take special care when he has encounters with police.

HOUCK: Which is the wrong comment at the wrong time. That's the problem I have with that comment. I have no problem with somebody sitting down with their kids telling them if the police pull you over, do everything you're told, okay?

HARLOW: Right. So, we're going to talk about this a lot more a little bit later in the show with you three gentlemen, but I wanted to give some perspective here for people to understand. Tony, given -- I want you to look at this moment and then get your reaction to it. Let's roll the tape here. Many of the officers holding hands as they line up outside. Obviously they couldn't all fit in the church. Lined up outside for blocks and blocks and avenues and avenues holding hands. Looking at this, as someone who is a community advocate who works with communities in Brooklyn, what is your response to seeing this?

TONY HERBERT, BROOKLYN COMMUNITY ACTIVIST: Well, one, you know, I'm a part of a fraternity and I understand the fraternal bonding that's taking place here. So to lose, you know, one of your comrades, you know, in the way that they have, it does hit you kind of deep, you know, quite frankly. But seeing this, it takes me back to where we need to be. Which is what happened days after 9/11 where our community came together, police, firefighters, everybody came together. We need to get back to this and it's unfortunate that these individuals here, these police officers, are actually now the poster children for that kind of relationship that we need to rebuild again.

HARLOW: You know, it's interesting, Juan Carlo, the NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton said today in his remarks at Officer Ramos' funeral to heal a city could be the greatest honor to these two officers.

RODRIGUEZ: And he's correct, to heal the city. How do you heal the city? Support the family. Support your local police department. And have meeting with your local presidents. Every precinct in the city of New York have a president that represent them with the policing community.

HARLOW: And you are one of them?

RODRIGUEZ: And I'm one of them and I'm proud to be one of them.

HARLOW: You lived on the same block as Officer Ramos and know his family well. As someone who had a chance to know him, can you tell us a little bit about him, because I know his nickname was Pote, right? Which means jar of goodness and I've heard from so many that there was no one better.

RODRIGUEZ: Yes. We all have nicknames in Brooklyn. Loving father. Was always up and down with his kids on Essex Street when they would have block parties. I would meet him once in a while at the supermarket on Fullerton Street. He was a very, very good father, family man, but also he got very involved in the church and --

HARLOW: Yes.

RODRIGUEZ: -- also wanted to serve the Police Department but also do his ministry, his work of God, you know?

HARLOW: Yes, absolutely. We're going to talk about that more after a quick break. Thank you, guys, for being here. Stick with me, we're going to take a quick break and talk more about Officer Ramos. Because just looking at his funeral it's obvious that he was well respected, deeply loved. We're going to speak to one of his friends, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: What you're looking at is a memorial that has grown exponentially over the last week. An incredible sight in Brooklyn where officers Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu were shot and killed, assassinated one week ago. This memorial continues to grow and it's quite a sight to behold. People have left flowers, stuffed animals, candles and homemade signs visited by a lot of people in New York this week. It was a stunning show of support for Officer Rafael Ramos today as a sea of blue came to say good-bye and to pay tribute.

CNN's Randi Kaye takes a look at the life of this fallen hero.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They were partners on patrol. Officer Wenjian Liu, a veteran of the NYPD, and Officer Ramos, who joined in 2012. Both signed to the 84th Precinct in downtown Brooklyn.

Officer Ramos worked as a school security officer before joining the NYPD and reportedly loved the Mets. He was married with two children. On Facebook, his 13-year-old son wrote. "He was there for me every day of my life. He was the best father I could ask for. It's horrible that someone gets shot dead just for being a police officer. I will always love you, and I will never forget you, rest in peace, Dad."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can say -- the heart he had was uncompared to other people's heart.

KAYE: Ramos' cousin told the "Wall Street Journal" that God was a priority in Ramos' life. The 40-year-old officer, in recent years, grew more passionate about his church. On his Facebook page, a quote reads, "If your way isn't working, try God's way." The same page said Officer Ramos had been married since 1993 and once studied at a seminary. Before his death, Ramos was studying to become a chaplain. In fact, later that Saturday afternoon, the day he was killed, he was scheduled to graduate from a chaplain program.

The pastor at his church told us Ramos had an infectious smile and loved his wife Maritza and his two boys, Justin and Jayden.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to thank all those who have shared their sympathy and support for our beloved family member, Rafael Ramos, who will always be loved and missed by many.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Randi Kaye, thank you for that. Let's talk more about Officer Ramos. Joining me again his friend Juan Rodriguez, also community advocate Tony Herbert and also with us Harry Houck a former New York City police detective. Thank you for being here. Juan Carlo, let me start with you, you lived on the same block as Officer Ramos. You know him very well. You're also the president of that community dealing with the relations between the community and the police officers in that area. You were with the family today.

RODRIGUEZ: Yes. I was at the funeral today with the family. The uncles and aunt, cousins, all still currently live on Essex Street.

HARLOW: On that block.

RODRIGUEZ: On that block. And I live down the block. So, I went with them to the funeral. We sat together. Afterwards a local restaurant that offered his services to, he felt that he need to do something and --

HARLOW: It's so hard to see his wife there and his two children. Young, young men who have -- their father has been stolen from them. What did his boys have to say? How are they doing?

RODRIGUEZ: Well, the boys, they're very sad, you know, they don't have their father around anymore. You know, they don't have his father around and he wanted to make sure that he was going to be there for his kids and he was there 150 percent. Always up and down with his kids and his wife.

HARLOW: And that was his nickname, Jose jar of goodness. Tony, to you as someone who works as a community advocate, how important are police officers to what you do?

HERBERT: I mean, extremely, because there's the bright side of things where we're able to stop crimes before they are committed by working in tandem with the Police Department. I mean, I too understand the dynamics this family is going through. I lost a loved one to violence. My nephew. My twin brother son was shot and killed. So, you know, I can sympathize with this family and understand the need to protect our community but, you know, we have to have good cops. And working relationships. And I think we saw it earlier. We should get back to community policing because that's where the better relationships are developed and we can actually save some lives.

HARLOW: So, Harry, as a former police officer, how does that happen?

HOUCK: Well, I think the first thing we have to do is that the mayor ought to allocate more money for the Police Department so that we can put cops on the beat. I walked the beat in a black neighborhood in New Jersey back in 1978 where an officer was assassinated two years earlier. That was the best two years that I look at now as a cop. It was me just a white cop in a black neighborhood, five square blocks, I knew everybody. When people called 911 they asked for me.

HARLOW: So, you think more money for more officers so you can do that.

HOUCK: Right. Definitely, you know, people need to see that police officers aren't just somebody that comes and makes an arrest. You might as well just have robots do that, okay? And that's what probably people think police officers as robots, coming in and getting out. All right? You got to get to know a cop and the cop's got to get to know the people.

HARLOW: Yes, if I think about it I don't really know the police officers in our neighborhood and we've lived there for two years. It's a good point. To you, Juan Carlo, can you tell me a little bit about what being a police officer meant to Rafael Ramos? Because he just became an officer two years ago.

RODRIGUEZ: He always wanted to be a police officer. He got into the school safety. And -- but his intention was to be, you know, to join the law enforcement but also as a Christian man, he felt that he needed -- that he can do more for the community, you know. We were grateful. Grateful to have a police officer that served us. That was there to protect the family. My family, my kids. Not only wearing the uniform but he was down the block and I'm pretty sure we had a problem he would be there for us. Twenty four hours. He's going to be greatly missed definitely he's going to be greatly missed.

HARLOW: And he is, you know, live -- his memory lives on in all those he served with but also in his two young -- two young boys as well. You know, one of them who is in college and another one growing up can remember what their father is like. The president saying that the memory -- the vice president saying that today, the memories can't be taken away from you. Thank you all, gentlemen. Stay with me. We're going to talk more about this coming up.

We're also going to talk about how the death of Rafael Ramos and Officer Wenjian Liu have driven a deeper divide between police and New York City's Mayor Bill de Blasio. Will the hard feelings remain? The reactions to the mayor's remarks, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: At the funeral for fallen Officer Rafael Ramos today, an unspoken gesture that spoke volumes. Hundreds of officers outside of the Christ Tabernacle Church in Queens turned their back when Mayor Bill de Blasio appeared on stage and on that big video screen addressing mourners. Officers also turned their back from de Blasio last week at the hospital on Saturday night where Ramos and Wenjian Liu were taken after they were shot. The mayor's office just this afternoon released this response to the officers who turned their back reading, "The Ramos and Liu families, our police department and our city are dealing with an unconscionable tragedy, our sole focus is unifying this city and honoring the lives of our two police officers." I'm joined again by our panel, Juan Carlo Rodriquez of New York 75th

Precinct Community Council. Also, community advocate Tony Herbert and former NYPD Detective Harry Houck. Detective, let me begin with you. What did you make of that as a former officer, seeing that today at the funeral?

HOUCK: Seeing what today, I'm sorry?

HARLOW: Seeing the backs turned off some of the police officers when the mayor begin to speak at the funeral.

HOUCK: I wouldn't have done that today, but I know that the police officers are very angry at the mayor so I can see why they did it. But I don't think it was a good move today. So I would wait until after both funerals are finished, you know, to start the dialogue. And I'm hoping that the mayor will start the dialogue first. And I think what the mayor also needs to do is to turn his back on some people who perpetrate hate in this city, all right? And if he did that, I think that would be a good step towards mending relations with the police department.

HARLOW: What is it, Juan, that from what you've heard within the police community, right, because you work very closely with them, that they are most upset with the mayor about. What specific actions and/or words?

RODRIQUEZ: Well, he definitely gave his back to the Police Department, you know, he seemed like he supported more the protesters and he was on the protesters' side and definitely not on the Police Department's side. When he spoke to his son, you know, like, you know, we all speak to our kids. If an officer stop you, it's the right thing to do. If an officer stop you, you know, he wants to know what's going on and ask you questions, you know, answer the officer, but definitely the mayor was out of content is one.

HARLOW: So, you are talking about the comments that the mayor made within the last few weeks talking about how he and his wife to their biracial son, you know, says, you know, he said they talked to him about how to take special care in any encounter he has with police officers who are there to protect him. You think that should not have been said?

RODRIQUEZ: No. Definitely not have been said, you know, at the wrong -- everything has a time for everything, you know, and --

HARLOW: So, this is what I keep thinking. This is our mayor, right, of New York City, we're all New York City residents and this is our police force. Right? So, Tony, what can we do that can actually effect change?

HERBERT: One, the mayor has to open up the dialogue with everybody. You can't speak with one community leader with the assumption that he just represents or they represent one particular group. There's organizations, you know, I give kudos to the protesters like the Justice League and what they are doing. I think what they're doing is in the right direction but we got to remember there are those agitators that are actually trying to change that dialogue and we have to be very cognizant of that. So, what we need to do is get to the table, get the real leadership to the table and speak for the multitude of the people.

HARLOW: And so, he has condemned any violent protests, right, the episode we saw on the Brooklyn Bridge, even though most of the New York City protests have been peaceful. He said in -- de Blasio in his comments at the funeral for Officer Ramos today said, those that protect us protect others are a special breed. We heard nothing, Harry, political from him, right?

HOUCK: Right.

HARLOW: And a lot of people are saying, right, this is not the time.

HOUCK: Exactly.

HARLOW: But how would you like to see him come forward? Do you want an apology? Do you want him to say, look, Bill Bratton and I are working together on this? There are clearly steps that need to be taken?

HOUCK: Yes. I'm sure he can find a way to apologize publicly to the police because it was he who turned his back on the Police Department first, not the police officers, okay? So, what he needs to do is come out and publicly apologize and I'm sure he's going to find a way to do that, all right, and then we can go from there.

HARLOW: So, we heard him after the -- after Officer Ramos and Officer Wenjian Liu were assassinated, we heard him last Saturday night at the hospital, lauding them, lauding the efforts of the police officers but you're saying, it's what he did before.

HOUCK: Now he's doing it. He knows he's in trouble, all right? He knows a lot of people even a lot of people that voted for him that I know aren't very happy with this mayor. Some people are calling for him to resign. Now, I don't know what the right thing here to do is, but for him, he needs to come out and apologize to the Police Department and start backing his Police Department, first. Giving them the benefit of the doubt first. And when there is only evidence not just lies perpetrated by certain people, when there is evidence to indicate that the police officers or a grand jury acted improperly, then he can come out and say something about it.

HARLOW: I really hope being a resident of this great city that we do see, you know, the two coming together in whatever form it takes, right? Because it's better for all of us. It's better for all of us. We have to get to a quick break, but thank you all gentlemen for coming in. I appreciate it very much.

Harry, Tony and Juan Carlo. Good to be with you. A quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, the deaths of two black men, Michael Brown and Eric Garner, at the hands of police set off protests across this country this year. Some were peaceful, pleading for thoughtful conversation about police and community relations. Others were not, and led to scenes of violence and looting. Those protests, the aftermath and the way that they played out in real time and online were one of the top- 10 media stories of the year.

Brian Stelter looks back at the others.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Our media top-10 starts with number ten, a changing impression of America's dad, Bill Cosby. Beloved on "The Cosby Show," but not so much anymore. A news media that mostly ignored the old allegations of sexual assault by Cosby suddenly paid attention this year.

UNIDENTIFIED COMEDIAN: Yeah, but you rape women, Bill Cosby, so it kind of brings you down a couple notches.

STELTER: Now his NBC show is no more. His stand-up shows are in peril but Cosby is not admitting guilt and he's never been charged with any crime.

Now to number nine, the future is streaming. CBS and NBC introduce new ways to stream their stations. Up soon is HBO, launching online subscriptions early next year, joining Hulu, Netflix and Amazon.

Up next, number eight, fact checking failures. Most memorably, at "Rolling Stone." Its bombshell story about an alleged gang rape of a college student blew up as discrepancies were discovered and the magazine had to apologize for not even trying to talk to any of the alleged attackers. Critics bemoaned a viral news culture that values quick more than verification.

Number seven is video changes everything. As Ray Rice can tell you. His year would have gone very differently if there hadn't been that surveillance camera footage showing him knocking out his then-fiancee in February. It prompted a crisis in the NFL and the hiring of domestic violence players. And after the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, the lack of video may have changed everything. Now, calls for body cameras on police officers.

Now to number six, media moves accelerating. Jill Abramson fired from "The New York Times." New editors at "The Guardian" and "Bloomberg." On TV, Josh Elliott leaving from ABC to NBC. And David Gregory losing "Meet the Press" to Chuck Todd.

Number five is a big one, the biggest aviation mystery in modern history, Malaysia Airlines flight 370. Its disappearance shocked the world, a world that seemed so connected, where nothing can go missing for very long but it still has not been found. CNN went wall to wall with the story for a month, part of a strategy to own big breaking news stories, that even had its critics tuning in.

And number four, speaking of breaking news, Ebola. It spread in Africa, then arrived in the United States and caused short-lived hysteria, partly due to social media. But the same outlet that spread fears also spread facts.

Number three is the media consolidation wave. Comcast trying to buy Time Warner was just the first domino to fall. Then AT&T sought to buy DirecTV. Time Warner was out of reach to Rupert Murdoch and he gave up for now at least. In the next few months, we'll see if the Comcast/Time Warner merger gets what it needs, that is a thumbs-up from the government.

And number two is the Sony cyber attack. There were titillating e- mails, embarrassing documents and private medical records, all published online by anonymous hackers tied to North Korea. A preview maybe of future battles. This story is just starting.

And number-one, most importantly, the digital revolution accelerated. Content is still king. But with every passing month, it's more and more obvious how media companies live or die by the whims of tech giants. Facebook drives traffic to Buzzfeed, until it doesn't. Amazon promotes books, until it doesn't. The movie studios need Netflix. Game makers need Apple. But some stars have been able to resist. Taylor Swift, still, not back on Spotify. Americans want their media, everything online and on their phones, so media companies have to follow.

Brian Stelter, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Brian, thank you for that.

Don't miss this coming up, we've got "The Top-10 of 2014" special on CNN hosted by our very own Brooke Baldwin, right here tomorrow night at 6:30 eastern time on CNN.

Coming up next, North Korea is fuming over the release of "The Interview," accusing President Obama of interfering, even comparing him to a monkey, and threatening, quote, "deadly blows." So what have we learned? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was pretty much what I expected, given it was a Seth Rogen movie. The gore wasn't too much. Not as much as I thought it would be. Overall, it was pretty funny and I think it was well executed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Have you seen "The Interview"? A lot of folks have. It earned $1 million in its first day, released on Christmas day. By comparison, of course, that's not a ton. "Dumb and Dumber," $36 million in its opening weekend. But "The Interview" was only released to a few thousand theaters.

But the controversy around the film is escalating. North Korea releasing an odd, very angry statement accusing President Obama of forcing the release of the film.

I want to read you part of the statement. It says, quote, "Obama always goes reckless in words and deeds like a monkey in a tropical forest. And later made this threat, if the U.S. persists in American- style arrogant, high-handed and gangster-like arbitrary practices despite the repeated warnings of the DPRK the U.S. should bear in mind its failed political affairs will face inescapable deadly blows." North Korea also demanding the FBI release its evidence implicating North Korea in a cyber attack against Sony. Just as some U.S. cyber experts say they're not so sure it was Sony that -- sorry, they're not so sure it was a North Korea that hacked Sony.

Joining me to talk about it is CNN commentator, Ben Ferguson; and CNN legal analyst, Mel Robbins.

Thank you for being here.

First of all, Ben --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: -- your reaction to that statement out of North Korea and frankly your takeaway from this entire debacle over "The Interview."

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm just glad that we got that actual statement. I was worried with their Internet being shut down by somebody, again, that they were going to have to send it by bird, you know. It's nice to know at least we let their Internet be up for a couple hours.

It's a classic example of just how out of touch with reality this regime is. It's so sad the people there, you know, instead of him worrying about American movies, maybe he should worry about feeding his own people and people in slave labor who have no rights and can't speak out and can't even stand up, you know, without being worried that someone in their government's going to hit them. You want to talk about atrocities. I'm not too worried about them. Let's be honest, ultimately, right now, what they're good at is hacking. They got a lot of time on their hands and they have to send people out of their own country to even learn how to hack and then they got to hack from other countries.

So I think this is, you know, a bunch of hoopla for them. I think it's embarrassing that we're actually treating them with so much, I guess you'd say, respect as some adversary. And I think shutting down their Internet just shows how weak they really are as a country are right now because of their leader.

HARLOW: But look at the damage done by the Sony hack that the FBI says the evidence bears out that it was North Korea.

Mel, what do you make of the fact that this comedy, right, this comedy movie is emblematic of our, you know, fight and many people say this was a real fight against terrorism?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I do think it was a fight against terrorism, and I do. You know, as much as I am sitting here chuckling as I was listening to Ben, I don't think it's kind of funny or something that we should downplay. I think this is the beginning of a lot of these kind of new-age terror attacks where countries that are as isolated, as backwards, as -- you know, we look at them and say, oh, he's crazy, he's this, no, he's not. Since the 1990s they've had a military-first policy that employs a strategy where they isolate their people. They starve them. They enslave them. They elevate the dictator. And they also try to keep everybody on edge as if they might get attacked. And they do that so that they can maintain control without actually having to go to war with anybody.

FERGUSON: And, Mel, here's the thing. I agree with you and I think the bigger picture from this is we should be reminded in a very heavy- handed way by our government that this exactly what is going on in this country and identify think some people have missed it because of the whole movie aspect of it. This is the new type of terrorism. And it's going to come from North Korea and other nations as well. But this is when the president should step up in a big way and say, we don't put up with this, especially from you. And if we did shut down their Internet, I personally would like to claim it.

ROBBINS: Yes.

HARLOW: Mel, do you think that the president in saying earlier that he believes Sony made a mistake by saying at first it wasn't going to release the film and we know it happened, it got released in some theaters and online, but do you believe that was the president taking a stand?

ROBBINS: No. In fact, I think it was the president throwing Sony under the bus because he didn't stand up and claim it as a terrorist act and say our government will not --

FERGUSON: Bingo.

ROBBINS: -- stand for this kind of assault on U.S., you know, companies, on our freedom of speech, on the free markets. If he stepped up and said we will retaliate, you know, bit for bit. If he had stepped forward and said, this is an attack on free markets, on our Constitution, this is business terrorism, this is -- we take this seriously and there will be a response.

FERGUSON: Yeah. And not even mention Sony --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: So, tougher rhetoric.

Guys, Ben, we got to get a break in. We'll come back with you on the other side.

But also, shouldn't we be talking about China and China's role in facilitating Internet access in North Korea, you know, politically, that has implications we'll talk about it, too.

Quick break. We'll be back on the other side talking about this. The president has been a man of action since losing Congress in the midterm elections since the Republican wave. He's done it all without input from Congress, "going it alone." Is this a sign of what's to come for 2015?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right. We're back with CNN commentator, Ben Ferguson; and CNN legal analyst, Mel Robbins.

Thank you both for being here.

Let's talk about the president. He will face as we all know a Republican Congress come January, but he seems determined to dispel any notion that he's become a lame duck. He just announced this historic deal to realign the U.S. relationship with Cuba back on November 21st. And before that, there was the really big climate deal with China.

Ben, to you. Is this a president saying he won't be a bystander and he will "go it alone," even though some of the executive orders can be overturned by whoever the next president is?

FERGUSON: I think it's bigger than that. I'm not listening to the American people and I know they sent new leadership to Washington and I disagree with those voters, so, therefore I'll do exactly what I want to do how I want to do it through these executive orders and that's not what the American people like in a president when they send a message that they want to go in a new direction or they don't like the way that things are going and I think this is going to end up hurting him in the long run. I think it's really going to hurt Democrats in the House and the Senate who maybe are sitting there going, hey, a bunch of our friends just packed their boxes and they were sent home. We don't want to be the next round of that in another two years, Mr. President, so we got to play by the rules of the Constitution and you're the president. You got to work with Congress. That's how it works.

HARLOW: Ben, how do you explain -- Mel, you can jump in here.

FERGUSON: Sure.

HARLOW: How do you explain these new poll numbers? Let's pull them up, showing a President Obama, his highest approval rating since spring 2013. 48 percent. So --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Sure. It's below --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Go ahead, Ben. Then, Mel.

FERGUSON: It's below 50 percent. So we can't actually act like this is somehow amazing.

HARLOW: But it's better than it was.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: But it's real easy to figure out.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Hold on. Hold on. It's real easy -- it's real easy to figure out. Where was he just a month and a half, two months ago? As soon as the gas prices dropped drastically. The average American said, "This is amazing. I like the president now more than ever."

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Mel, is this all gas prices?

ROBBINS: Well, you know what, I can't believe I am agreeing with Ben, as much as I adore him.

(LAUGHTER)

But, you know, the fact that gas gets to be two bucks, which ironically, the president has almost no control over the price -- yeah.

FERGUSON: Yeah.

ROBBINS: The average American feels that in their pocketbook, and they start to feel the steady recovery that has been happening in inches. Also, you see the Dow Jones hit 18,000.

But you know, one thing, yes, he does not hit above 50 percent approval rating, but his approval rating is a hell of a lot better than the 114th Congress that's coming in. And the one that he was just working with.

HARLOW: Very true.

ROBBINS: So, you know, I don't -- I don't think that he's a lame duck. I do think that he's going to continue to go forward, Poppy, as you suggested, by executive order and making these big games that a lot of Americans will agree with, immigration reform, relaxing all of the restrictions with Cuba. Even though the Affordable Care Act is something that most Republicans can't stand and a lot of Americans don't want to, you know -- aren't that happy with it either. It would be a huge mistake for Republicans to focus on trying to repeal that. So I don't -- I think that you're going to see these numbers climb. And as long as gas stays at two bucks or less --

FERGUSON: Yes.

ROBBINS: -- there's not going to be a lot of people complaining about this president.

HARLOW: Ben, to you, looking ahead to 2015, what is the number-one thing you would like to see the president work with Congress on and not go it alone on.

FERGUSON: Well, I think there's two things. One, immigration reform. I mean, there are a lot of congressmen that were sent home and a lot of congressmen that are now going to get a new job in Washington over the issue of immigration. He has to work with Congress and do it in a way where the American people get to sound off through their elected officials. He is not a dictator. He does not get to decide policy, as big as immigration reform, from the White House. And I think he understands that. The issue is he doesn't like what Congress is going to want to do with it. And so if he's smart on this, he leads on it. He has a -- he has a platform that I think a lot of people are very interested in hearing in a positive way. If he walks up to Capitol Hill and invites them, and says, all right, where can we get along, there are a lot of areas. But as long as he says I'm going to do it through executive action, it's going to be a disaster and it's going to be more Americans frustrated with it, you're going to see more gridlock, you're going to see more fighting and then nothing will get done on the issue.

HARLOW: Let's hope it gets done in 2015 and not gridlock.

FERGUSON: Yeah.

HARLOW: Guys, thank you. Stick around. Interesting story we talk about next.

A look at a very controversial new state law that requires drug testing on welfare recipients being tested out of Michigan. The details ahead.

But first, this. Fareed Zakaria with a look at President Obama's special initiative that examines the human brain.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA, GPS (voice-over): President Obama announced the brain initiative in 2013. It's an effort to show how the brain's neurological circuits work together in real-time.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It won't be easy, but think about what we could do once we do crack this code.

ZAKARIA (on camera): Is it more difficult to map the brain than it was to map the human genome, which took about initially 10 or 15 years?

MICHIO KAKU, PHYSICS PROFESSOR, CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK: It will take a lot of time. Realize that the human genome project only talked about maybe 20,000 genes or so that govern the human body. The brain has 100 billion neurons, each connected to 10,000 other neurons. That's as many stars as there are in the Milky Way galaxy, and so it will take time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARLOW: Well, Michigan Governor Rick Schneider has signed a new law which will require drug testing for welfare recipients suspected of using drugs. If someone tests positive, they will be referred to a drug treatment program. If they test positive a second time, they lose welfare benefits. And if someone refuses to take the test, they won't be able to get benefits for six months. For now, this is just a one-year pilot program. They're testing it out in three Michigan counties, still deciding what counties those will be.

Joining me now to talk about this, CNN political commentator, Ben Ferguson; and CNN legal analyst, Mel Robbins.

So, Mel, I'm interested to hear from you in a moment on -- well, I'm interested to hear from you now on the legal aspect of this. Where is the line on this?

ROBBINS: Well, it's interesting. I actually grew up in Michigan. And what I can tell you is that, Florida, they passed a similar piece of legislation in 2012. It was only on the books for four months before it was overturned in a scathing decision, talking about this violating the Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures.

And one of the other things really interesting about the Florida case, Poppy, is that, you know, only 2.6 percent of the welfare recipients in Florida tested positive for drugs. Only 2.6. And that was three times less than the average population's percentage for drug use.

And so one of the things I always think this sounds like a great idea on its face, because you say, yeah, yeah, if you're getting benefits, you shouldn't be on drugs. Or, yeah, yeah, if you're getting Benefits, this might be a great way to get people the help they need. But the truth of the matter is this is purely a mechanism to discriminate against poor people. If they want public servants or people making public money, then maybe Governor Rick Schneider of Michigan should take the drug test himself to get his salary.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Mel --

HARLOW: Ben, let me ask you that. Because to add on to that, other critics of this have said, like Mel pointed out, the program hasn't worked in the past, doesn't save much government money and it stereotypes poor people.

FERGUSON: See, I disagree, and here's why. I think it's really sad when you have people that are, first of all, being helped, and then they're abusing the system because they're addicted to drugs. This is not about locking people up. And it's not about discriminating. If anything, we should think about the kids growing up in households where you have adults addicted to drugs. This pilot program is a very responsible way of saying to adults, look, we want to get you the help that you need. We're not going to arrest you. We're going to pay for you to be in a program to be rehabilitated. We shouldn't want children -- and there are a lot of children living in households where there is welfare, where we are giving government aid. And we don't want you growing up around drugs or your parents on drugs.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: But if it's about the children -- quickly, 15 seconds, why not then in all households?

FERGUSON: I'm OK with having all different people that are welfare recipients getting this. But they're asking for help.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: And that's why there is an issue.

ROBBINS: But drugs, it's all households. There is a heroin epidemic. In fact, in Massachusetts, the number-one killer of Massachusetts residents, 25 and under, is opium overdose. Because of the --

(CROSSTALK)

ROBBINS: -- that is brought on by Oxycotin --

(CROSSTALK)