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AirAsia Jet Vanishes En Route to Singapore; Burning Ferry Off the Coast of Greece

Aired December 28, 2014 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow joining you live this evening from New York. Six o'clock here on the East Coast.

And breaking news on CNN: the commercial airliner that disappeared from air traffic control screens not even 24 hours ago. As of right now, that airplane is still missing.

Here is what we know: it is an Airbus 320 operated by AirAsia that was en route from Indonesia to Singapore when all contact was lost. One of the last things the pilot said was that the weather was not good. The visual search for the plane stopped overnight, but now dawn is breaking and search planes are getting back into the air. They'll start combing the area where the plane was last known over the Java Sea.

Here is the human factor: there are 162 souls on that plane, most of them from Indonesia. Among them, 18 children, one infant. People around the world are watching and waiting for any word from the search and rescue crews, and during his Sunday mass today at the Vatican, the pope, Pope Francis, prayed for those crews and for the families of the people who are on board and who are missing.

This plane was last tracked over the Java Sea. Take a look at this. We're going to pull up a map to show you the part of the world we're talking about here. The plane took off from Surabaya. That is the second biggest city in Indonesia. Its destination: Singapore, just a two-hour flight away. It never made it, though.

Let me bring in Les Abend, who is an experienced airline captain and 777 captain. Also, Mary Schiavo, our aviation analyst who join us from Charleston. And David Gallo of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution is with us, talking about the search and rescue efforts.

So, Les, let me begin with you. When we talk about the search here and compare it to the search for MH370, you're talking about a smaller area but still a vast region.

LES ABEND, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, FLYING MAGAZINE: True.

HARLOW: What some are saying is that the good news is that this is a region that is heavily trafficked in terms of a shipping route and is relatively shallow. Does that help?

ABEND: Of course, it helps. It's going to help with the -- if indeed Tom is correct with the meteorological report about the seas calming down, you know, if we have an unfortunate situation where the airplane is in fragments, they're going to be able to at least locate those fragments quicker. The fact it is a smaller area, we also do have primary radar data from my understanding. So, even if the airplane did potentially break apart, or drift out without enough power for it to have a discreet code sent out as through a transponder, there's still the opportunity for it to be tracked to a particular position as opposed to MH370.

HARLOW: Right, because there was more of a lag time in knowing where the plane was.

Mary, to you, we know there was rough weather. We know there were severe thunderstorms. Those are very typical in this corridor. The pilots are experienced flying through that. We're often told turbulence doesn't bring planes down.

What would it take for weather to put a plane like this in danger?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, for weather to put a plane like this in danger, usually what happens in the accidents I've worked is several things have happened in addition to the weather. There's been very bad weather and then the weather did something to the plane, caused some kind of a malfunction like on 447, the pitot tubes iced over.

On 708, there was a problem with the engines and the pilots thought it was a dual engine flameout. And then, the third thing happened. The pilots responded incorrectly to the weather-induced emergency on the plane.

So, usually, it's not one thing that brings down a plane, and for a modern jetliner, a strong big jetliner to be brought down by turbulence, it's rare. There have been cases where planes have had to be scrapped because of the damage turbulence did to them, but in almost all cases they got back, limped back to the airport. So, usually, it's several things that bring a plane down.

HARLOW: David Gallo, to you, when we talk about the search and rescue efforts that local media have reported are already under way at daybreak in the Java Sea, what kind of terrain are we talking about here when you look at how deep it is, the ocean floor, how heavily trafficked it is? What are we looking at?

DAVID GALLO, WOODS HOLE OCEANOGRAPHIC INSTITUTION (via telephone): Deep ocean, relatively smooth and flat and probably covered with sediment which makes searching a little bit easier. You know, the depth is only 150 feet on average as opposed to miles deep for Malaysian Airline 370. But that's got its own challenges. The currents can be higher, the visibility can be lower. So, there's nothing routine about searching in shallow water.

HARLOW: Let me bring -- stay with me, all three of you. You want to bring in Paula Hancocks. She's on the phone with us in Jakarta, Indonesia. She's about to head out to one of the islands where Flight 8501 was last tracked.

Paula, can you hear me?

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Hello, Poppy, yes, I can.

HARLOW: So, tell me about what you're going to do. I know you guys are not going out with military escorts. It is just the CNN team. What are you doing there? Are you going out with search and rescue?

HANCOCKS: Well, we're heading out to one of the small islands that's close to the last point of contact of this plane. We know it's just after 6:00 in the morning here. The sun is now up. So the search operation has started once again. It was stopped overnight because of the dark, obviously the ships were still out on the water, at least seven ships from the Indonesian search and rescue agency.

A couple of helicopters are heading out. We understand there's more planes also from Malaysia and Singapore there, including assets into this search operation. But we have been told by the Indonesian national rescue agency that it is a very broad search location, so they have pointed out that it is not necessarily going to be an easy task to try and track down this airplane.

Now, we know as well that Australia and India have offered assistance if it's needed, but, of course, the main concern at this point is the weather conditions. We know that there have been some substantial thunderstorms. We know that the torrential rain in this area. So, of course, the airplane, the aircraft that are going to be combing the surface of the sea will want to be as low as possible and as close to the surface of the sea as possible. That that's going to make it very difficult if you have these high waves we've been hearing about. And, obviously, with rain, comes low visibility.

So, there is a concern that these adverse weather conditions are going to hamper the search and rescue operation -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Paula, you and your team stay safe when you're going out in this weather. Keep us posted throughout the evening. We'll be live for you all night right here on CNN.

Paula, thank you for that.

Let me go to you, Mary. One thing as we covering MH370 and the search for the plane we talked a lot about the towed pinger locaters, right? Is that something search and rescue would use at this time? Are we talking about purely at this early stage, less than 24 hours after the plane disappeared, are we talking about mainly a visual search?

SCHIAVO: They're mainly doing a visual search, of course, hopefully, aided by a tremendous amount of data from nations who will, I hope, freely share their radar tracking information. That was one of the biggest problems on 370 in that the radar information that the Malaysia government had wasn't shared for four days and they wasted four days looking in the wrong part for the plane.

So, with good radar coordinates, they should be able to pinpoint in the last radar target hits for this plane. So, they'll be doing a visual search, get the debris field, if any, then use current charts and algorithms to trace back where it would have entered the water if they find the debris field.

HARLOW: So, to you, David, given the fact we know that this plane disappeared at 7:24 a.m. local time, how big, roughly, of an area do you estimate that they're looking at or how exact can we get in terms of the radar information that we do have?

GALLO: That's a great question, Poppy, because you know, one thing that they've got that's a huge advantage is the approximate last known position. To us, that was the center of a haystack. Now the question is: how wide is that haystack?

HARLOW: Right.

GALLO: And there are clues like primary radar. We haven't heard about ACARS yet. Was the plane streaming ACARS data? But all of that will help to find how wide.

But I tell you every minute that that plane stays airborne is another 10 miles in radius of that circle, and that's exponential and adds up quickly into a huge area.

So, there's nothing simple, though on the map it looks like it's very tightly controlled. When you get out there on that ocean, it's a huge sea.

HARLOW: No question about that, as Paula was just reporting as well.

Let me bring in you, Les. David used the word ACARS, for our viewers who are not aviation experts, what does that mean? How significant is that?

ABEND: ACARS is the automatic crew reporting -- it's a reporting system. And what that -- not only does it provide information to the crew by entering data, but it also provides its own automatic data with reference to air speed, altitude, various types of parameters, as long as that particular company subscribes to allowing that data to be released to the airline, itself.

So that, like Dave Gallo indicated, that type of information is going to be very helpful in determining -- if it's available, of course, in helping.

HARLOW: So, to you, David, someone who's an expert at searches in the sea, how important is it to have that ACARS data? What if we don't have it?

GALLO: Well, the fact they've got the center of the haystack is important, but I think it's important, for instance, with Air France 447, we knew that the aircraft after the last known position was airborne for about four minutes and that gave us a circle of about 40 nautical miles in diameter. So, it was a big haystack, but at least we had some bounds on where to look and where not to look.

But as it turns out, the plane was within about ten miles or so of the last known position. And so, I think that, again, we'll have to wait until all the data and evidence is in, but I'm sure they'll come up with a fairly good search area from all that.

And just like Mary said, once, if -- I'm still hoping for the miracle ending. But if bits of the plane or the plane is located on the surface, we'll have to back track that to find the "X" marks the spot on where the plane hit the water.

HARLOW: We're all hoping for that miracle ending. And the good news is we've been hearing a lot from the airline at this point in time and the regulators. And, hopefully, we'll hear more this evening.

Thank you all. I appreciate it.

Quick break. Coming up next, a look at the passengers, souls, 162 aboard flight 8501 and their families praying for their return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY FERNANDES, AIRASIA CEO: It's unbelievable, but we do not know what's happened yet, so we'll wait until the accident investigation to really find out what's happened. Our concern right now is for the relatives and for the next of kin. There is nothing more important to us, for our crews, family, and for the passengers' family that we look after them. That is our number one priority at the moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was the CEO of AirAsia saying, of course, the families, the crew, the passengers of the Flight 8501, all 162 people, are the airline's top priority. We are expecting to hear, again, from him in just about an hour and a half. We'll bring that to you, of course, here on CNN, as soon as we can.

But let's talk more about this because this is really the most important thing, the human factor, these 162 people. For their loved ones it is an agonizing wait for answers. They've gathered across the region including in Indonesia where this plane took off.

Let's go straight to our Nick Valencia. He has the latest for the passengers on board, and we're also going to talk to Daniel Rose, who's an attorney representing families affected by aviation disasters. And clinical psychologist, Jeff Gardere, joins me as well.

Nick, I know you've been following this all day. What's the airline doing to keep the families abreast of what's going on?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they established a hotline for the families, a 24-hour hotline. We spoke earlier to the man who is operating the hotline. He said they've been busy. Let's get to the numbers of the plane, giving meaning to those

numbers, 162 people on this flight, QZ8501. And here are the nationalities and how it breaks down. A majority of those on this plane, this includes passengers and crew, they were from Indonesia, 155, three others from South Korea, one from Malaysia, another from Singapore, one from the United Kingdom and one from France.

Now, that French national, local media in Indonesia is reporting that his name is Remi Emanuel Plesel, confirmed to be the plane's co-pilot. We also know from local media and others reporting that French authorities are working in close collaboration with the Indonesian government to try to locate this plane.

On to the U.K. national, another name that has been confirmed. We know that he was an Indonesian-based energy executive. His name was Choi Chi Man, and he was traveling with his 2-year-old daughter who's one of the youngest passengers on this plane.

Right now, the families of all of those on board awaiting these agonizing moments as you mentioned, Poppy. This is the most difficult part, the unknown trying to find the wreckage of this plane if it exists or trying to find the whereabouts of exactly what happened to this AirAsia flight -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Just can't imagine it. All right. Nick, thank you.

Daniel, you've had to work with these families after they lost loved ones on crashes. We don't know what happened yet. But when we talk about the airline thus far, are you impressed with the past 22 hours of communication with families, that there has been more communication after MH370 disappeared?

DANIEL ROSE, AVIATION ATTORNEY: That's fair to say. It's still early on. Time will tell. I think we all remember what difficulties Malaysia Air had after MH370 and for a while, still, after the initial crash.

HARLOW: Is it legally -- you're a lawyer. Is it legally sometimes these airlines feel like we don't want to say the wrong thing, so we're not going to say anything?

ROSE: I really don't think it's that. Nobody is really asking them even to give the ultimate answer about what happened just yet. They just want information. You know, what was the last thing they knew, what should the family do, where should they do? I mean, basic stuff like taking care of the immediate needs of the families, getting them to a location, keeping them abreast. You know, liability or what caused the crash should not even be on the radar screen.

HARLOW: So, Jeff, to you, can you talk about the importance from a psychological standpoint to these families of hearing first every little detail as small as it may be from the airline rather than from us, the media?

JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. They want to know that they're the priority so they want to have that direct connection with the airline, with Tony Fernandes, talking with them, being there for them.

Also, if they're hearing it from the media before they're hearing it from the airlines, then it speaks of some sort of incompetence or some sort of a cover-up, and then they don't trust the airlines and that's what Fernandes wants right now. He wants them to know he's concerned about the families, concerned about the crew. They are the priority right now.

HARLOW: We are broadcasting not only here in the United States, but globally right now on CNN International as well. So, for family members that may be watching or friends who know someone on this flight, what can they do most to be helpful but not intrusive to those loved ones?

GARDERE: Well, they should certainly get in contact with them, but also protect or understand, respect the space that they may need. But they have to make themselves available, whether it's by telephone, whether it's by e-mail, just letting them know that we are with you in spirit and many of them are praying right now, to pray along with them, to reach out, to let them know, whatever is need, they will be there for them as the airline should be doing right now, too.

HARLOW: Daniel, who are the key questions that families have when they have come to you after incidents of plane disappearance, plane crashes, et cetera? What are the biggest questions that they have about what to do and about their legal rights and responsibilities?

ROSE: Well, you know, it really all flows from what happened and that's the main question that's on everybody's mind and will be for some time until you get certain answers. But from the answer to that question, what happened flows certain legal rights and the conversation naturally really follows a certain path based on what we learn factually was about was it the aircraft, was it the pilot, was it air traffic control? Something like that.

And, you know, this is a situation that generally no family has ever been in or contemplated being in and want to understand how the system works and get the answers from all sources as we talked about, and, you know, lawyers are one of them.

HARLOW: Yes, absolutely. All right. Daniel, appreciate it. Jeff and to Nick, thank you, all.

We're going to continue our special coverage of AirAsia Flight 8501 after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: It was less than 24 hours ago that the pilot of AirAsia Flight 8501 was last heard by air traffic control in Indonesia, speaking really of turbulent weather, asking to fly higher, sparking what is now a massive search for this plane, its passengers and crew.

A total of 162 people, most from Indonesia, were on board. The search resumed about an hour ago when day broke there. While we wait for word on that search, my panel is going to answer some of your questions because we're getting a lot of them on Twitter.

You've been sending us your questions. Please continue to do so throughout the evening.

Let me bring in CNN aviation analyst Mary Schiavo. Also, Boeing 777 captain, Les Abend, forensic audio expert Paul Ginsberg, and David Gallo, the director of special projects at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, talking about the search efforts. Also with us, CNN meteorologist, Tom Sater.

Mary, let me begin with you. This is a question over and over on Twitter, viewers writing in, why are these planes allowed to fly with such severe thunderstorms versus here in the U.S., some of them say we see many of those flights delayed or canceled. But this is an area with a lot of these storms. So, they're asking, why are they allowed to take off in situations like this?

SCHIAVO: Because the aviation nations of the world, ours included, allow the airlines to make those decisions. Air traffic control does not shut down the flight lanes. They don't shut down the traffic corridors. Local airplane authorities, by the way, make the decision on shutting down airports.

The air traffic control certainly gives advisories, but the airlines, themselves, and most major carriers have their own in-house meteorological departments, and they help the pilots make those decisions. And in the U.S., off they often do it prophylactically. If there's a bad storm or a hurricane or weather coming, they simply cancel the flights to avoid the massive mess that will ensure if they have to reposition the planes. But it's up to the airline.

HARLOW: OK. It's interesting you bring that up. Tom, let me go to you, because one question I've been getting frequently on Twitter today is about what kind of meteorological expertise there is working with these airports, working with the airlines, telling them what is ahead before they take off? Is there any sort of threshold or level?

TOM SATER, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, I know Les was talking earlier, we were talking about pilots getting briefed. It's up to the pilots, themselves. I'm sure Mary and the other experts can tell you more about individual airlines, or even individual countries, that have to deal with this.

But briefing yourself, I mean, you can see the line -- let's look at the cluster of thunderstorms. Nowhere else on Earth is seeing rougher weather than in Malaysia and Indonesia. Now, the pilots I'm sure show up ahead of time, try to get briefed and there were turbulence reports that showed in this general region, expect embedded thunderstorms at 53,000 feet.

When you're flying at 32,000, 53,000 is a wall of turbulence and water. Now, we're starting to see this picked up just a little bit. The good news I can share with you, Poppy, and the others is et though this was the time we lost contact, you can see this tremendous thunderstorm sliding in this direction, these pilots sometimes have to run on, you know, visually what they can see. Obviously, there's some turbulence, you try to get around these, but the better news is we're looking at an improvement and that's very important right now because when it comes to visibility, if I can show you this radar, this is something very new now. As we get in close, the thunderstorms disperse. This is fabulous news right now. I mean, a bird's-eye view is showing if we get sunlight, any fog will burn off. This is the best news we've had in 24 hours.

HARLOW: Yes, I'm very glad to see that. It's interesting you point out that those thunderstorms, ceiling of 53,000 feet. This plane, the ceiling where it can fly, is 40,000 feet. There's no getting above that storm.

Here's another question that we got in from Jim Moss (ph). He asked us, quote, "Why are we not hearing about the emergency locator beacon? Has it been heard?"

So, Paul, let me go to you, an audio expert that deals with incidents like this. Do you have an answer for that?

PAUL GINSBERG, FORENSIC AUDIO EXPERT: It's my understanding that we have not heard anything from the ELT as yet. They're triggered by saltwater and by G-forces and so on. But I think the conditions have been so rough and we don't know the way the airplane impacted the water, if it did, to see whether --

HARLOW: They could be knocked out in really rough water, really rough seas?

GINSBERG: It's possible, but they are made to withstand pretty rough, rough seas and so on. By the way, the A320, it's my understanding, is the same type of aircraft that Sully Sullenberger landed on the Hudson. However, we have night and day conditions.

HARLOW: Yes. That is the case, right, Les?

GINSBERG: A320s.

ABEND: It absolutely is.

HARLOW: All right. More questions, more of your questions answered by our expert panel after a quick break right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Back with our continuing coverage of that airline that has disappeared, AirAsia Flight 8501. As we continue to track the search and rescue efforts there in the Java Sea.

Back in my panel, they're answering your questions. And you have a lot of them. We're getting a lot of questions from you on Twitter. Keep sending them in.

Let me get to Les Abend, 777 pilot, for his take.

We got this question, Les, from Aldo Rosito (ph) who wrote in, "What did we learn from Flight MH-370 that we can use for this search? How is this search different from that of MH-370?"

What do you think, Les?

ABEND: Well, the search is going to different from the standpoint. My understanding is that they have primary radar data and might even still have some discreet radar data through the transponder.

HARLOW: Better pinpoint.

ABEND: Better pinpoint, yes, exactly. And the ACARS, if the ACARS did give out some information, the airline will be able to provide that to the investigators. So --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: That's sort of secondary --

ABEND: It is. It is. And we're dealing with a smaller area. However, you know, it's still a big body of water and it's difficult to, you know, find something, especially in rolling seas.

HARLOW: Let me get to you, Mary Schiavo, joining us as well.

Mary, John Luke wrote into us, "Why halt the search at night if the blinkers on life vests can be seen?" And this is someone who wrote, "from a worried AirAsia passenger."

SCHIAVO: Well, part of it is also for the safety of the searchers and the safety of the people out there. It's dark, it's bad weather. They will expend a lot of energy and a lot of time and it will be very difficult to see, yes, even the small blinking lights on the light vests, and plus they're searching in the dark. There's also risk of danger to the search crews.

HARLOW: And another question, Mary, that I do want you to address, is the safety standards, because this was written into us from Ed McIntosh who said, "Are the safety standards the same for this airline as airlines in the U.S.? Or the EU?"

SCHIAVO: No, actually, that's a very good question, they are not. Every nation has to adopt, to be part of an aviation nation and the aviation world, and you have to have aviation safety standards and you have to have a body of regulations that govern your aviation activities and they basically have to match or be equivalent to the International Civil Aviation Standards. As are ours. And some countries vary dramatically.

And by the way, I'll give a very poignant example here. United States airways and its directives put out by the Federal Aviation Administration don't apply to other countries. They have to put out their own. Usually what carriers do is follow ours. But each nation has their own. And by the way, we don't let carriers land here unless they're equivalent to ours.

HARLOW: We should note, though, that AirAsia does have a pretty exemplary safety record thus far ahead of this. To you, Paul GINSBERG. When you talk about what could be heard, a lot

of people have been asking us on Twitter, why aren't we hearing anything? Any sort of emergency signal at all from this plane?

GINSBERG: It may be the -- the location, actually, and as we had -- we saw in MH-370, the topographical bottom of the ocean in that case. Here we have a much shallower waterway. However, the aircraft may not be able to get close enough at this point yet.

HARLOW: Yes.

GINSBERG: I expect that today, being morning there, they will have a lot more --

HARLOW: Something.

GINSBERG: -- to bite into. Absolutely.

HARLOW: Looking at the Java Sea, you're talking about a body of water only 150 feet deep.

GINSBERG: Correct. You would think, don't forget, we've talked about the pingers.

HARLOW: Right.

GINSBERG: Being able to be heard for miles. And so I believe it's going to be much --

HARLOW: You're hopeful.

GINSBERG: Yes, I am. Especially if the weather clears.

HARLOW: Tom, let me -- let me go to you. One of the viewers wrote in and asked us about these clouds. Right? Because we know that the pilot asked to elevate from 32,000 to 38,000 feet to avoid a cloud. Give us a sense of what kind of potential danger some types of clouds form for pilots.

SATER: Well, let's show you a cross section. And I even have questions for the experts because I'm not a pilot. I'm not an aviation expert. This is a cross section. Now earlier satellite pictures were showing a pretty large thunderstorm. A thunder head and Anvil cloud that was moving into the flight path. Now we don't know. We can only assume that maybe this is the one that caused some turbulence. Now this is not to scale because the plane would be much smaller.

HARLOW: Sure.

SATER: Again, assume 32,000 feet. Has an issue. Calls to ascend to 38,000. But you're getting over 53 to 53,000 feet for these thunder heads and these cloud tops, obviously there's downdrafts, there's updrafts, there's an icing issue here. What I'd like to know and ask some of the experts, on this aircraft, what type of warning systems and how much of a lead time or advance notice do they have that some of these build out of nowhere?

But are there instrumentation that will say turbulence ahead or are you in the situation as it occurs?

HARLOW: Well, it seems like -- and I want to bring David Gallo in here, but it also -- you know, it seems like when we're on commercial flights they say, you know, we've been told by air traffic control, some turbulence ahead, so we're going to ask you to buckle your seat belt, et cetera.

David Gallo, looking at the search for this plane in a sea that is indeed vast, but not as vast as the reason they're searching for MH- 370 and a depth of 150 square feet. How does that impact the search?

GALLO: Yes, especially in that area where the weather at this time of year is not particularly great, so it's tough to have -- the visibility may be reduced. The -- for the airplanes in the air. Once you get under water, it's a whole new set of challenges because the currents in shallow water are typically stronger than they are in deep water and that bothers -- you're usually lowering equipment over the side of a ship and you want to know exactly where that equipment is if the currents are pushing things around, it makes it a lot more difficult. So it's got its own set of challenges.

HARLOW: You did say, though, that the sea floor that we're looking at in this region is probably as good as it could get for a search. Is that right, David?

GALLO: Well, it's probably not absolutely smooth and flat which would be perfect, but it certainly doesn't have the huge mountains taller than the Rockies that they're dealing with in places in the South Indian Ocean. So you don't have that to worry about. But -- so it could be the bottom character, the texture of the sea floor could be a lot easier to work with than is down further south and in deeper water, yes.

HARLOW: All right. Thank you very much, David Gallo, Mary Schiavo, Les Abend, and Paul GINSBERG. Paul and Les, stick around, you'll join us after a quick break.

Our special coverage continues as well. Thank you to Tom Sater as well. And our special coverage continues of AirAsia Flight 8501, that missing airliner. They're searching for it at this hour. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: We're continuing to follow the disappearance of AirAsia Flight 8501. It is already being compared to the crash of another flight five years ago. Air France Flight 447. That passenger jet went down over the Atlantic Ocean now more than five years ago. It killed all 228 people on board. Storms, severe storms, did play a role in that disaster. And they're also a potential factor in the case of this missing AirAsia jet.

Let me go straight to CNN aviation analyst Mary Schiavo, she joins us again from Charleston, South Carolina. Also with me again, former accident investigator and the author of "Air Safety Investigators" Al Diehl, joins us on the phone from Albuquerque.

Let me begin with you, Al. When you look at, OK, Air France 447, and this flight, both Airbus planes, different models of Airbus. Both vanished during bad weather. But tell me a bit more about why we're hearing experts in these early hours comparing these two incidents?

ALAN DIEHL, FORMER ACCIDENT INVESTIGATOR, FAA AND U.S. AIR FORCE: Well, it's because we know that these so-called pitot tubes, these are the probes that hang down underneath the nose of an aircraft to measure air speed. They iced up in the case of the Air France aircraft. But my understanding is Airbus has replaced all of defective pitot tubes, so that -- you know, if that's true, and that's just what I'm hearing and reading, then that shouldn't be a factor.

I'm not saying it couldn't be. We -- you know, we never exclude anything this early in the investigation, but we've learned from Airbus accidents and the pitot tubes are one scenario and, of course, the Airbus that crashed in New York right there because the first officer used the rudder petals too vigorously, he literally pulled the rudder, the vertical stabilizer off the aircraft. After that they changed the training scenarios and Airbus got the word out to all airlines around the world, I'm told.

So, you know, we learn from these accidents. I don't know if pitot tubes are a factor here. If Airbus has done their due diligence, and Mary is a lawyer, she can talk to that, then that shouldn't be a factor. And the same thing with the training program about stay off the rudders. Do not use the rudders to try to correct an upset situation. But I'll let Mary handle that.

HARLOW: Well, here's what we do know. That after 447 went down, Airbus did and the regulators did mandate that they change those pitot tubes in Airbus 330 and 340 models. But I don't believe that it applied to the 320. And it's way too soon to jump to any conclusions as you said.

Mary, what we did see happen with Air France, it flew through this very turbulent, stormy area, and something happened where the pilots could not determine how fast or how slow the plane was going. But then another plane went through the same area half an hour after another Air France flight on that path and was fine. Could this have anything to do with speed? Going too slow, going too fast?

SCHIAVO: Well, it could because -- and it's interesting that you mentioned that because there was a air wind directive on this particular plane concerning the, I think it was the altitude indicators. And they're like the pitot tubes, it's a tube, it's an air inlet. And it gives the pilots additional information. And of course, the -- you know the way, the attitude of your plane, nose up, nose down, et cetera, dramatically affects your air speed, and so, yes, planes can go through situations and can be flown in manners in which one has the ability to make it through, keep your air speed up and your nose down. It's basics of flying. You learn that in the first week of flight

school. And can be very different. But it can also be different because the weather, and these storms are very -- you know, they're fast building and fast moving. It can be very different in a matter of minutes.

HARLOW: Mary, I'm getting a lot of tweets, questions from people saying, why aren't we hearing any pings from this plane? Whether it was able to miraculously land on its belly in the water as we saw here on the Hudson River, with that us Airways flight, or whether it, indeed, was a tragic crash. Is it surprising to you that there have been no pings, nothing received?

SCHIAVO: No, it really isn't. And I wish it was surprising. But we learned from 370 and many other accidents that the emergency locator beacons, some go off on the impact, and some go off on exposure to water. But often they don't work and they don't work for a variety of reasons. If the plane is in deep water, they won't be able to pick up the pings from the water locaters. Sometimes they're damaged in the crash impact. And sometimes they find they just don't go off at all.

And for the pingers that are on the black boxes, they will need to use side scan sonar, or listening devices after they can locate the area in which to look. So nobody's looked for those yet, but the emergency locaters, they would have heard if they'd gone off.

HARLOW: Well, quick break, but on the other side -- quick break, but I want to talk on the other side about -- you know, you say they often don't work. Is there something that needs to change here going forward with the technology?

We'll take a quick break. More of our special coverage when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: It is daybreak right now over the Java Sea, and Indonesia's TV One says that the search is back under way for that missing passenger plane. For the loved ones of the 162 passengers on board AirAsia Flight 8501 the night has been a nightmare, an agonizing wait. And at this hour there are so many questions and really so few answer. As AirAsia CEO Tony Fernandes tweeted, quote, "This is my worst nightmare."

What we know, the plane was flying from Surabaya, Indonesia to Singapore when it suddenly disappeared. The last contact the air control had with the plane 7:24 a.m. local time. That places it over the Java Sea. The airline says that the pilot had just asked permission to elevate, to fly higher to get around some really bad weather. It is not clear, though, if that was a factor.

A full day of search on Sunday failed to locate any part of the plane. The search ship remained in the water overnight. They're searching once again now on the water and also from the air.

Joining me to talk about all of this, again, let me bring in forensic audio expert, Paul GINSBERG, president of Pro Audio Labs. And Les Abend, commercial airline pilot, flies a 777, also a contributing editor of "Flying" magazine.

Les, this is a question that we ask time and time again after MH-370 disappeared. And that is, real time streaming data. Why is it that we still do not have real time streaming data so that someone on the ground can know at all times exactly what's going in the cockpit, exactly what is happening?

ABEND: Well, it's a matter of cost. Now we do have some aspect of streaming data in the form of ADSB, which is Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast, information that uses satellite and so forth. The North Atlantic uses it all the time. The particular area of the country that you refer to in MH-370, that was available, but there was only a certain point of it available that was subscribed by Malaysia Airlines. So it comes down to cost. ICAO that Mary Schiavo mentioned with referenced to the International Civil Aviation Organization.

HARLOW: Right. The regulator.

ABEND: The regulation that governs a lot of the airlines to fly into various countries is pushing for this. For the airlines. And I think honestly the airlines are cooperating because this is unusual.

HARLOW: Do we know -- I mean, what we do know is that the last contact the ground had with this plane was at 7:24 a.m. shortly, 40 minutes or so after takeoff. But do we know if this plane was streaming that data back live every second? It seems like it was checking in every few minutes or every 15 minutes.

ABEND: I don't know the subscription that Asia Air had, so I can't -- I can't answer that with any expertise. It is possible that that information is available. It went to the airline.

HARLOW: When it comes to the search and rescue effort, Paul, we talk a lot about the so-called black box. So there's two things. There's the flight data recorder and then there's the audio recorder, the cockpit audio recorder. What are the first thing that search and rescue and investigators are going to be looking at?

GINSBERG: Once they find these recorders, they're going to want to know what type of conversation was going on in the cockpit. Were they just trying to navigate around the weather? Was there a malfunction? We'll be able to hear the engine speed, whether it was constant, whether it was trailing off. We'll be able to hear whether there was unlikely a bird strike, a smashed windshield.

We'll be able to hear any alerts or alarms that went off in the cockpit. And we'll also be able to hear some of the weather in the form of hail --

HARLOW: Possibly --

GINSBERG: -- in the same way that it hits your car roof because it's like metal on metal. And also thunder claps perhaps. So there's a lot of information and many times it's not just the words of the pilot and the co-pilot or the radio reception, but it's the noises, the sounds, the ambient pieces of information that leave clues, give clues.

HARLOW: Les, let me ask you about human versus machine. These planes are so advanced that they can really fly themselves once they're up at altitude. So when does the pilot make the decision to override an autopilot, for example, to take control themselves and is there any push and pull between what the computer wants the plane to do and what the pilot wants to do?

ABEND: It's a good question. But I think we really strive to work in conjunction with automation. You know, we have airplanes -- most of the airplanes, and an A320 is a good example, it's all automated system that you're sending electronic information to the flight controls as opposed to the old-fashioned pulleys and cables that are going back there.

But when it comes to the autopilot, we really work in conjunction with it and we -- our training involves our involvement with that. And as long as we have a good understanding of how that affects our flight characteristics and flight control --

HARLOW: Yes.

ABEND: Then --

HARLOW: And it usually works in harmony.

ABEND: It usually works in harmony.

HARLOW: Yes. Les Abend, Paul Ginsberg, thank you for your expertise. Stick around. More with you later in our special coverage of the disappearance of AirAsia Flight 8501. Continues right here after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: We're following another breaking news story very closely here on CNN. What we know is that at least one passenger has died after a fire erupted on a ferry right off the coast of Greece. So far, 169 people have been rescued. Hundreds, though, are still on board.

This is the Norman Atlantic Ferry. It was traveling from Greece to Italy on Sunday morning when suddenly this huge fire broke out.

What you're looking at now is really stunning video taken by a passenger on that ship. And you can see the flames coming out of the cafeteria there.

I want to pause, listen for a moment. You can hear the panic on board.

Wow. Extraordinary. Those are flames, as I said, coming out of the cafeteria. We do know that luckily they have been able to contain that fire. As far as we know, though, it is not out yet. People are huddled together in their life jackets, many of them, hundreds, still waiting to be rescued. One of the survivors comparing this to the Titanic disaster, saying people are dying of cold and suffocating from smoke.

Let me bring in on the phone journalist Barbie Nadeau who is in Rome. She's been following this for us throughout the day since it happened.

What do we know at this point in time? Have they had any success, Barbie, getting more people off?

BARBIE NADEAU, JOURNALIST: What we know, the Italian Navy right now is confirming that there are 287 people still on the ship. They haven't updated the number for a couple of hours, but the last couple of hours. They're working all through the night on this rescue operation but they only have a few helicopters that -- that have the capacity to make these rescues at night. So they're taking them up one by one. It's a very slow process.

The seas are very, very rough right now. Visibility is very, very bad because of the smoke. But they say they will not stop until they get everyone off that ship. The fire has been contained but as you said, it's still not out. There were over 100 semitrucks, some of them oil rigs in the bottom of that ship that were traveling to the -- to the European mainland, to traverse up into the north of Europe.

And a lot of these ships, or a lot of these big trucks obviously just caught fire one after another in the bottom of the ship.

The Greek Transport Ministry in a press conference earlier said that the fire doors in the ferry were not functioning. They should have been able to hold that fire, contain it in the bottom part of the ship. Instead, it just ripped through the ship. The 287 passengers are standing outside all huddled in the upper deck of the ship near the bow of the ship. And of course, you have to think that the tugboats that put out the fire in the ship have been spraying water on the passengers and on the ship all day long in freezing conditions.

It's got to be miserable for all of them involved.

HARLOW: Yes.

NADEAU: And hopefully they'll get everybody off by morning is what they're hoping.

HARLOW: Let's hope that they do. We'll be checking in with you throughout the evening, Barbie Nadeau. Thank you for following that for us. We appreciate it.