Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
U.S. Issues Sanctions on North Korea; Search Continues for AirAsia Crash Victims
Aired January 02, 2015 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Joining me now, justice correspondent, Pamela Brown; and chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto.
Jim, to you first.
What kinds of penalties, sanctions are we talking about?
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The big sanction is barring these North Korean entities from the U.S. financial system.
So, what are the entities? One is the RGB. This is North Korea's KGB, in effect, its intelligence operation. Another one is KOMID. This is the Korea Mining Development Trading Corporation, which is actually a big arms dealer for the North Koreans, and the third, another trading corporation that is tied to its defense industry, as well as 10 individuals.
So it's going after really the way that North Korea makes it money by trading in arms and weapons and denying them access to the U.S. financial system. I imagine our viewers think, well, the U.S. doesn't do trade with North Korea or with these North Korean guys, but it is still a significant financial penalty to deny them any access to U.S. dollar tradings through the U.S. financial system, because you don't have to be dealing directly with the U.S. for that to impose costs on you.
It's a big deal. I think big picture-wise as well, it takes away any doubt that the administration at least is certain that North Korea is behind the Sony hack. They say that. They say it specifically in these measures, that this is penalty for North Korea for attacking the U.S. cyber-security system.
CABRERA: That, in part, in addition to some of the human rights issues that the U.S. has had with North Korea all along.
SCIUTTO: Exactly. Exactly.
CABRERA: Pamela, as Jim just mentioned, the White House is really making a strong statement about its confidence that North Korea is to blame, even though the FBI had meetings just in the past week with some of the private security firms who are saying this just had to be an inside job by somebody who was an ex-employee.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's absolutely right. There has been sort of this growing skepticism, a lot of naysayers out there.
But, as Jim pointed out there, I really do think this action shows just how confident the U.S. government is and FBI's assessment that North Korea is behind the hack. You mentioned the cyber-security firm that briefed the FBI earlier this week claiming the hack was an inside job. The FBI pushed back heavily on that and actually said it was adamant that it was right in its conclusion, pointed to the fact that it's privy to a mountain of evidence that others who aren't part of the investigation would have access to.
A lot of evidence in this investigation is classified. But I would not be surprised if at some point the FBI comes out publicly with more evidence backing up its case in the future, Ana.
CABRERA: Jim, the White House calls this the first move of perhaps many. We don't know what's planned next. What could it be next?
SCIUTTO: It was an interesting warning embedded in there to say, this is tough, but this is the first of many. And there are some who think that there might have been other steps as well, including North Korea's Internet going down in the last couple of days.
Of course, the administration has not claimed responsibility for that, but there are some that have theorized that that's a possibility. What else could be next? You could conceivably -- this, in a way, would be a -- and I hate to use the term nuclear option, but in economic terms, it would be significant. If you bar third parties from doing U.S. dollar transactions with North Korea or bar third parties from any sort of trade with North Korea or penalize them, Chinese banks, for instance, that would really hurt.
That's a tactic that the U.S. has used, for instance, with Russia and Iran in the past because then that expands the net of people that you could penalize and thereby expands the economic penalty on North Korea.
(CROSSTALK)
CABRERA: Right, the bigger effects.
SCIUTTO: Exactly.
CABRERA: Do you think we will hear about other steps, or now that the government has come up and said, you know, to critics that you aren't doing anything, now, OK, see we are doing something, do you think they will kind of scale back and do more things kind of under the radar?
SCIUTTO: I think the administration will keep its powder dry on this.
It's their opinion that even -- and we talked about this earlier -- you had some friendly words coming or relatively friendly words coming from Kim Jong-un yesterday, saying he would be open to talks with South Korea. But the administration's opinion is there's enough bad behavior coming out of North Korea that we have to see real change for us to take any positive action or be open to positive action. They haven't seen that yet. CABRERA: All right, Jim Sciutto, Pamela Brown, thanks to both of you.
Now turning to the hunt for the missing AirAsia Flight 8501, search crews have found this, what appears to be a window panel largely intact, perhaps the most significant piece of plane wreckage found so far. They found it in an area about 2,000 square miles. On this map, you see that red square, not a small search zone considering the type of monsoonal conditions crews are up against, but it's a whole lot more precise than the 23,000 square miles that was mapped out earlier in the week.
It is here that they are hoping to find more victims. Teams from several different nations, the U.S. included, have recovered 21 more victims today, bringing the total to 30 out of 162 passengers and crew members. Four people have been identified so far, among them, a 12- year-old boy, another, a flight attendant just 22 years old. Her parents spoke to CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAIDAR FAUZI, FATHER OF VICTIM (through translator): She knew the risks, but she loved this. It was her dream. She loved traveling.
ROHANA FAUZI, MOTHER OF VICTIM (through translator): Goodbye. Goodbye, Nisa.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CABRERA: As we mentioned, the search zone is now concentrated on an area about the size of Delaware. Crews from several countries are helping, including from the U.S.
Let's talk more about that with CNN's Joe Johns joining us from Washington.
Joe, who exactly is helping from the United States?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Let's see. The United States has USS Sampson already deployed. Received word today that the ship recovered at least two bodies on Thursday. We haven't got an update.
USS Fort Worth has also set sail from Singapore. Not clear at all what the Fort Worth's role will be, but we do know its capabilities, a U.S. combat ship, went out on a 16-month deployment to the region starting the end of December. Fort Worth is actually one of the newest vessels in the Navy essentially on its first mission, has side- scan sonar.
Now, side-scan sonar takes an image of the ocean floor, which would certainly be useful in a situation like this as they look for pieces of the plane. The U.S. has also said it would send an aircraft to assist, the P-8 Poseidon aircraft with a unique capability. It can do long-range maritime reconnaissance. We don't know precisely how they plan to use this plane, but it could be the controller, say, of a fleet drones as they look around specific areas of the ocean. It's a war fighter, of course, but in this mission it's possible the
plane's underwater defections capabilities could be called into play, including dropping sonar buoys to try to locate debris. And two dive teams are also being offered up to help in the search, Ana.
CABRERA: All hands on deck, it sounds like. Joe Johns, thanks to you.
With each new body that is brought to the shore, families gather around the morgue desperate to learn if it's their loved one inside the casket. The sad reality is many may never be recognized.
I'm joined now by Dr. Bill Manion, the chief of pathology at Memorial Hospital and medical examiner in Burlington County, New Jersey.
Doctor, thanks so much for joining us.
DR. BILL MANION, MEDICAL EXAMINER/FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NEW JERSEY: My pleasure.
CABRERA: We're talking about days now in saltwater, it's been a traumatic crash. In what condition do you think these bodies are arriving?
MANION: Well, as obviously more time goes along, there's more decomposition or putrefaction of the bodies. We try to identify bodies using dental records primarily.
And if dental records are insufficient, then can use DNA studies to really identify the bodies or body fragments as accurately as possible. We want to get together everything for the loved ones so they can have the proper burial.
CABRERA: Without getting too graphic, what can a body and a cause of death tell forensic investigators about what happened aboard that plane?
MANION: Well, there will be limited autopsies, I'm sure. We would like to see, for instance, in the respiratory system, is there any evidence of smoke inhalation. For instance,, was there a fire on the plane? Is there any carbon monoxide in the blood or any organs? That would also indicate that there perhaps was a fire on the plane.
The pilots, pilot and co-pilot, are subject to full examination, full toxicology studies. Was there any alcohol in the pilots, any drugs or anything that could have caused pilot error? So these are the types of things we worry about in a case like this.
CABRERA: Does every victim who is deceased have an autopsy done?
MANION: Well, in this case, I think it would be good to do a limited autopsy, at least look at the airway and the lungs and heart, and if there's any trauma try to determine what the trauma is from.
I know that if the plane breaks up in the air, the clothes are ripped off the bodies. If the bodies are retrieved with clothing, presumably, the plane went into the water with the people intact, with the bodies strapped to the seat belts. Even as the divers remove the bodies, if they know the location of the seat, that will help with the initial identification.
CABRERA: In terms of what some of these families can expect, we do know that for at least one of the families their answers came very quickly. They were able to identify a woman with just about -- within just about 24 hours of when they recovered her body.
Is that typical or will it take longer for most these families to have that closure?
MANION: Well, dental records are very, very accurate.
And with men, for instance, oftentimes they will have a wallet in their back pocket and even being underwater, credit cards would still be in tact, plastic driver's license. We can still use that to help us. Obviously, we wouldn't use what -- a purse or wallet that somebody was carrying, but we would still at least have an idea this is probably the person and then go forward and use dental records to confirm.
The body may be X-rayed also. If a person had a hip prosthesis or a knee replacement, that's the type of information that can also help us out.
CABRERA: Because then they would have some kind of a serial number on those pieces of devices, right?
MANION: That's correct. That's correct. Almost all prostheses -- all prostheses for joints, even breast prostheses will have a serial number for identification purposes, and can be used to precisely identify the person. That's correct.
CABRERA: Very interesting. Thank you for helping us understand the process a little bit better. Dr. Bill Manion, we appreciate it.
Just ahead, more tumultuous weather will hamper the search inevitably for the missing plane, but crucial to the investigation in finding the missing plane what the weather and the currents have already done.
Plus she cared about her family, loved to travel, had a giving heart. Hear from the mother and father of a flight attendant who was aboard that flight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CABRERA: Although most of the 162 people on board AirAsia Flight 8501 are still missing, 30 victims have been found, among them, a flight attendant who was just 22 years old.
As CNN's David Molko reports, the family is now dealing with the relief that the remains have been recovered and the grief over their loss.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DAVID MOLKO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Step by step toward their final resting place, each bearing a number, each number a soul. Casket 4 no longer nameless but identified as the first crew member of Flight 8501 still wearing her uniform. Her name Khairunisa Haidar Fauzi, or Nisa as she's affectionately known by her family, including her father Haidar and mother Rohana.
H. FAUZI (through translator): Nisa is an obedient daughter. She's always tidy. She loves to learn. Lots of her friends love her.
R. FAUZI (through translator): Just like her dad.
MOLKO: In the family hotel room, Nisa's parents smile and even offer a laugh as they share their memories. She cared about her family very much.
R. FAUZI: Yes.
MOLKO: Pictures from their daughter's Instagram account show a poised young woman with a giving heart, her mother says, and an adventurous spirit that took her hundreds of miles away from the family home in Sumatra.
R. FAUZI: It's a dream. It's fun. She's never complained. She already knew the risk.
H. FAUZI: She knew the risk but she loved this. It was her dream. She loved traveling.
MOLKO: Their reflections suddenly cut short by a phone call, the call no parent ever wants to get. Leaning on Nisa's two older brothers and cousins, their smiles vanish, replaced by a sense of urgency and finality.
A few hours later -- a solemn transfer of remains. Her parents say they've already made preparations for their daughter's burial as she begins her final journey home.
R. FAUZI: Goodbye. Goodbye, Nisa.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MOLKO: Incredibly difficult day for Nisa's family.
I spent about an hour with them in total during which they received the call to come here to the crisis center in Surabaya and identify their daughter's remains.
What struck me most, though, was the strength and resilience of both of her parents and the love of all the family members that were here with them, her two older brothers, her boyfriend and a couple of cousins as well.
Interesting point that her father made to me, he said on top of the fact that his daughter loved to fly and loved her job, her older brother, her oldest brother also wanted to be a flight attendant. He was inspired by the work she was doing. He also wanted to travel. And Haidar said, if that's still what he wants to do, then he still supports him.
CABRERA: Wow. All these families handling the situation with such grace and strength. It's really unbelievable and inspirational. David, I know you're there at the police headquarters in Surabaya. The sun about to rise. What's the latest on the status of the search?
MOLKO: Yes, as we understand it, it's quite an active search. Obviously, things slow down a little bit in the dark, but sunrise a couple of hours away here and a few hundred miles northwest in the Java Sea.
Our understanding from search-and-rescue officials, about 40 ships and aircraft patrolling an area, a new priority area that's 2,000 square miles. That's about the size of the state of Delaware, the first priority, of course, to bring back as many remains as possible. At this point, 30 bodies have come in. Four of those have been identified.
The second priority to look for the main aircraft wreckage and hopefully with that the black boxes, the flight data recorder, the cockpit voice recorder, because those will be the clues to finding out what really happened on board the AirAsia flight.
They emit -- the batteries on the black boxes, they have what's called pingers attached to them. They emit a high-frequency sound that can be picked up by various underwater listening devices. We understand that there are ships in the area that are beginning to do that underwater listening process either by dipping the device in the water or towing it behind the ship.
The batteries on the black boxes only last about a month. They are rated for about a month. Right now, 25 days or so, certainly still a long time to go, but once we pass that mark, once the batteries run out, then finding that aircraft could be an even bigger challenge. At this point, though, Ana, it's really about the victims and families of this crash as the remains continue to return here, 10 more bodies just coming into Surabaya late last night -- Ana.
CABRERA: And we continue to learn more about them and we want to lift them up of course in our reporting. David Molko, you're doing just that. Thank you.
So, it does seem that crews are at least getting closer to the crash site. Up next, you will get a firsthand look how they will search for that plane underwater. It is a delicate, it's a tedious process, so we will give you more details.
Plus, local reports suggest three bodies were found wearing seat belts, the row they were sitting in still intact. If this is true, what does it mean for other pieces of wreckage? That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CABRERA: The search for and the recovery of Flight 8501 will cost millions. This is a difficult process made worse by the rough seas and the weather that these crews are facing.
CNN Money's Vanessa Yurkevich takes a look at a company that started out exploring ocean floors and is now in the business of playing recovery.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bluefin Robotics makes submersibles, autonomous underwater vehicles known as AUVs built for exploration, discovery, and defense. But more recently their technology has been used for airplane search and recovery, including Malaysia flight MH370.
(on camera): Why was your vehicle chosen to help with the search and recovery for the Malaysia flight?
WILLIAM O'HALLORAN, MANAGER OF MARINE OPERATIONS, BLUEFIN ROBOTICS: Our vehicle supports that because it's easily broken down into small modular pieces and rapidly shipped around the world.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): Earlier this year, the Bluefin-21 spent three weeks searching for Malaysia flight, an $11 million U.S. effort to locate the missing jet. Now another recovery effort that Bluefin could help with is under way.
(on camera): Would your vehicle with good to use in the AirAsia crash?
O'HALLORAN: It can be employed in that if need be. Our vehicle could help map a debris field if it was located, and then that can also help provide faster response time for collecting things like flight data recorders, voice data recorders.
YURKEVICH (voice-over): The wreckage of Flight 8501 has been found, but the debris could be scattered across the ocean floor. It's the type of mission that's helped increase Bluefin's business by 15 percent this year. And in the case of the AirAsia plane, their AUVs could once again be on the front line.
They often spend 25 hours searching for a plane and cost half a million to $5 million.
O'HALLORAN: When you think about it, it's actually not that much money. I mean, ship time is tens of thousands of dollars a day to hundreds of thousands of dollars a day, depending on the type of ship. So AUVs make ship time more efficient. So by that, you can actually recoup ship time by using vehicles.
YURKEVICH: When the Bluefin is in the water, an operator on board the ship will program its search path. From there, it's on its own. At up to 5,000 meters, it uses sound sonar to record what it senses on the ocean floor. When the Bluefin surfaces, the operator can download its data and see images like these.
(on camera): How do I know if I'm looking at a rock or black box? O'HALLORAN: You have to be a trained sonar analyst. One of the
things that's really amazing about this technology is, over the years, the resolution of the systems has increased. Quite a lot of detail. So as you can see right there, that's a field of rocks on the left. As the resolution improves and the technology gets more efficient and the systems get better at delivering higher quality data, interpretive risk goes down.
YURKEVICH: Is there an emotional part of doing what you do?
O'HALLORAN: Absolutely. I mean, there's always an emotional element to something like this. You never want to be a part of a tragic event like this. You never want these things to happen in the world. But if we can help in any way we can, I think we should.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CABRERA: Vanessa Yurkevich is joining me now.
So, Vanessa, at point are they going to deploy these AUVs, or are they already being used?
YURKEVICH: They are actually not being used right now.
What you're seeing be used are towed pinger locators. So, that's what's being dragged behind ships in order to try to survey the ocean and find the plane. The AUVs are going to be deployed once they have found a reasonable area where they think the plane might be.
So, it's a smaller area where you can send these AUVs underwater and they can detect smaller things, like a black box potentially.
CABRERA: It seems like it would be awfully helpful, given the rough weather and sending divers in could be dangerous. But this is without a diver in, so clearly that might be a good option down the road.
YURKEVICH: It is actually a really good option, because if the sea is rough up top and there's a lot of waves and it's very turbulent, just five meters below the ocean, it is actually pretty calm.
So, these AUVs can work really well in this environment. However, you do need a ship in order to deploy the AUV. So if the ships can't go out, then the AUV can't go into the ocean.
CABRERA: Got it.
All right, Vanessa Yurkevich, thank you.
And up next: Even as more turbulent weather comes in, why are crews suddenly discovering more bodies than they did over the first couple of days?
Plus, the captain who landed a U.S. Airways jet on the Hudson River, saving everyone on board, joins CNN to talk about pilots' decision- making in a matter of seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
