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Searching For More Debris From AirAsia Flight 8501; Fellow Officers Pay Respects To Wenjian Liu; Seven-Year-Old Sole Survivor From Friday Night Plane Crash; U.S. Embassy In Indonesia Issues Security Alert For Americans In Surabaya

Aired January 04, 2015 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right, that's going to do it for me. I'm Fredricka Whitefield. The next hour of the NEWSROOM begins right now.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow joining you live from New York this evening in our top story, a fallen hero.

A sea of blue paying tribute to this fallen hero, thousands of NYPD officers lined up for more than a mile today to honor slain officer Wenjian Liu at his funeral. He was gunned down in an ambushed on his patrol car last month along with his partner Officer Ramos.

He was remembered as a devoted family man, a hard working cop and a proud new husband married just two months before he was killed. His widow trembled with tears. She said her husband was an amazing man, her soul mate and her hero. She thanked her family of blue for attending today's service.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PEI XIA CHEN, OFFICER LIU'S WIDOW: The caring son, a loving husband, and a loyal friend. You are an amazing man. Even though he left us early, but I believe he is still with us. His spirit will come to you to look after us.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO, NEW YORK: Detective Wenjian Liu was a good man. He walked a path of courage, a path of sacrifice, and a path of kindness. This is who he was, and it was taken to us -- he was taken from us much too soon.

JAMES COMEY, DIRECTOR, FBI: I do not know why there is so much evil and heartache in our world. I cannot understand evil. I cannot explain evil. I will not try. But what I believe with all my heart is that our obligation is to try to make something good come to come up tragedy so that evil is not allowed to hole the heal. So that evil is not allowed to win the day.

WILLIAM BRATTON, COMMISSIONER, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: Detective Liu is the police that we want. But it is also in the city, in this country, the police that we have. And for that and for how he died, and for how lived, and performed his duty. For that, I am so honored as he was already been referenced (INAUDIBLE). Please all salute to detective for his brave Liu (ph).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: It was a beautiful tribute for an astonishing person.

Few things had stood to us here about his funeral today. His widow calling him her soul mate. As we said they were just married two months ago.

Also, we were told some really fascinating stories about him about how he was on the job, how caring he was that he loved to fish and more than anything, he loved to share with his friends and family. We will always remember him and thank him for his service.

Also today, we saw something pretty significant, a significant gesture at this funeral like we saw last week at Officer Ramos' funeral. Some officers turned their back on New York City mayor Bill de Blasio when he spoke about this fallen officer. The officers ignored a direct order from their boss, New York City Police commissioner William Bratton who asked them not repeat the turn back today. Now some NYPD officer believed the de Blasio has inflamed the recent protest over controversial police tactics.

Let's talk more about the funeral and also about this continuing controversy. Retired NYPD detective Tom Verni joins me now.

Thank you for being here. You served this city for 22 years who were the cop, he worked in the community relations with the police. Let me first get your reaction to the funeral, the tribute today.

TOM VERNI, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: I think it was an outstanding showing by officers not in just -- (INAUDIBLE) also from other countries that were here. I think it poignant. I think it showed the level that all officers feel. You can't help but the law enforcement officer not have been affected by this double assassination.

HARLOW: Right.

What stood out to you most, Tom, about what they said, all these stories, right? We learned for the first time that his friends and family called him Joe. He is a Chinese immigrant to this country, came to this country at 12 years old and really lived his dream, although he was taken from us far too soon at 32 years old.

VERNI: He is the personification of a re-immigrant's dream. You know, coming into the United States I think that these are classic text book examples about that. It is just that it did lit your heart to shred to see -- I mean, clearly, any family would be affected this as well. But the way his family explains, you know, them coming over and him starting a life here and trying to better his life for himself and for his family, how giving he was, I think a lot people forget that police officers are humans. You know, we are human being.

HARLOW: And that's what commissioner Bratton has been trying to say. They are all individuals like you like me. VERNI: Right. And I think he did a great job. I think he was able

to bring out, and also Ramos' funeral he did the same thing, where he brought up that point and he brought out again today. And people -- I think if they hear it enough, maybe it will kind of re-trigger that feeling that, you know, they are just like us and this is just a profession that they have chosen and they are putting themselves out there for people like us.

HARLOW: New York City mayor Bill de Blasio saying today in his eulogy, New York stands a little taller today because of the time he walked among us.

I do want to talk about what we saw which was some officers turning his back when de Blasio spoke. I want to play, first, for our viewers the comments made on December 3rd by the mayor that really elevated this disagreement, that tension between some officers and the major. Let's listen to that and get your reaction on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLASIO: Charlaine and I have to talk to Dante for years about the dangers that he may face. Good young man, law-abiding young man who has never would think to do anything wrong. And yet, because the history is still hangs over us, the dangers he may face, we have to literally train them as families have all over this city for decades and how to take special care in any encounter he has with the police officers who are there to protect him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So Mayor de Blasio making those comments about the conversations he and his wife have had with their bi-racial son. Some officers really didn't like that and they believed that he also was supporting more of the protesters in recent weeks than them. What is you -- what are your thoughts on it. They said this city tries to move forward.

VERNI: I don't have a problem with the mayor having conversations with his son about how he should conduct himself and some of the child at tribulations of growing up in New York City. The police are going to be the last thing that his son has to fear particularly now. His son is being protected by the police. That's part of the 24-hour a day, seven day a week security detail. I think the time and place that he chose to elaborate on this conversation that they have with their son was inappropriate.

As the mayor, you know, the grand jury meet their decision in Staten Island.

HARLOW: From the Eric Garner case.

VERNI: In the Eric Garner case, they made their decision based on the facts, based on the evidence, none of which -- I mean, most of us have not attribute to. And based on the law, they decided that this officer with the actions that he took trying to arrest Eric Garner who, you know, I'm sorry that Eric Garner died. And you know, I'm sorry to anyone who dies as interaction with police.

HARLOW: You felt like it wasn't the time?

VERNI: I think that it was very inappropriate time to bring those discussions in when all he really have to say was, if you disagree with the grand jury's decision, and you want to protest about that, you are free to do so. But just in a lawful order and not this anecdotal information about a conversations between him and his son. It just didn't fit.

HARLOW: So where do we go from here, though. Because this is our police force and this is our mayor.

VERNI: Yes. The mayor, unfortunately, has dug himself a hole. He has created a divide with statements and actions that he has done. No one has forced him to act the way he has acted. And it started back to when he was a candidate running for mayor. You know, some of the other candidates took positions, you know, against stop and frisk, as he did. But his level of I think diplomacy and knowing being state's man, far differs from that (INAUDIBLE) Bill Thompson who ran for mayor also where I think they would handled it very differently.

And I just, I think everyone is under the same impression as far as the police concern that he has not handled himself in a way that has really come out in support of the police as he was running for mayor and the contract negotiation that failed with him where you had an opportunity to make some headway there which he didn't and basically offered them nothing. And then subsequently afterwards with the whole incidents in Staten Island and thereafter. He just does not come out very toll police in any way shape or form.

HARLOW: Interesting that the "New York Times" is pointing out in their editorial board of what they wrote this week saying, look, this is defending the mayor, saying this is a mayor who had given more money to the police force to upgrade all of the different devices that they have and appointed Bill Bratton back as the NYPD commissioner.

We got to get a quick break and we will talk more about this as how we move forward after that. Also, we are going to bring you the story of an extraordinary 7-year-old girl, the sole survivor of a small plane crash. The one thing that may have saved their life. That's also straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Her plane had just crash in the woods of rural Kentucky on Friday evening. Her father, mother, sister and cousin, all killed in that crash. But 7-year-old Sailor Gutzler somehow survived.

It was 38 degrees and drizzling. She had no shoes. She was only wearing shorts and a t-shirts, a bone in her arm was broken, but she wanted to get help for her family. She couldn't see anything. It was completely dark out. But there was a small fire next to the plane. She tried to find a stick to make a torch. When that failed she headed into the woods in search for help.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIEUTENANT BRENT WHITE, KENTUCKY STATE POLICE: She walked until she navigated downed trees. She navigated briars and bushes. She navigated significant ditch lines and was able to make it out to safety. And what she told us was to do so in order to receive assistance for her family. She actually probably went the best route she could have gone. It was probably not the easiest route by any means, but you know, say what you want to, that there, you know, at the same, we were talking about that some divine intervention there because she absolutely went to probably the nearest house that she could have, you know. But it was still a considerable, you know, considerable faith for her to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: It is incredible. Sailor was treated at the hospital for her broken bone before being turned over to relatives early this morning.

Joining me now to talk about this, the incredible ordeal she went through, Anthony Roman joins me. He is the founder and CEO of Roman and associates. He is also a commercial pilot. Also with us via Skype, Clive Irving. He is a contributor to "the Daily Beast" and also author of jumbo, the making of 747.

Anthony, let me begin with you. It is remarkable that this could have happened, especially in the six-sitter plane. A lot of people are asking how is it possible that one person survives really with minor injuries and everyone else dies instantly?

ANTHONY ROMAN, FORMER CORPORATE PILOT: Well, you know, it's remarkable. I currently fly a similar aircraft, same class and category, six-sit twin engine plane. And this is a terrible tragedy and this girl is a remarkable child. Why? No one really knows why someone survive and someone doesn't. It is just the luck of the girl, unfortunately.

HARLOW: Is there anything about where she may have been seated in the plane? I know it's early days of the investigation, but when you look at that, some have pointed to possibly if she was sitting in the back towards the tale that may have given her a better chance, again, we don't know where she was seated, but is there anything about safety and where you seat on the small plane?

ROMAN: Not really. It depends on the type of accident. You can lose and (INAUDIBLE) the entire rear of the aircraft in certain condition. And if you're sitting in the back, you're the first to perish, unfortunately. So it really is just plain luck. HARLOW: Clive, what is your take on this as someone who has written

extensively on, you know, aircraft, aircraft manufacturing, weathering accident like this? What is your take on this? It seems like a young girl with incredible survival instincts.

CLIVE IRVING, CONTRIBUTOR, THE DAILY BEAST: Yes, there are and in almost all situations like this, I can remember one example -- for example, one case where a single child staying out in the airline when it crash into the ground, 300 other people died and that one child survived.

But in this case, what is interesting to me is that the plane was upside down on the ground and there was no fire. I think the most important detail here is that the plane itself didn't catch fire because I don't think she would have gone out (INAUDIBLE).

And certainly, you know, I can only speculate that it must have hit those trees and then turned over and follow an inverted position. And it wouldn't have hit the ground with tremendous force, with tremendous violence (ph). So it's extraordinary that she got out of that.

And by any guess is that by some freak of the way the plane tilted as it settled, that she was spared the most severe impact on the airframe itself and managed to get herself out of that. I think by far that wasn't thought the family survival tactics, too, so that she showed enormous initiative when she apparently made there and towards the light and way through the dark, through that woods. I mean, it has been extraordinary story. I don't think I can think anything that like it.

HARLOW: What is -- when we talked about say, for instance, the AirAsia crash that search for the black boxes to tell us so much critical information. As investigators look at this plane crash, do even planes as small as this with six seats have those black boxes? Is that going to be number one for them in determining what could have gone wrong?

IRVING: Yes. It's not like the black box in an airliner. But there is enough information there for them to tell what went wrong. But what fascinating me about there not being a fire was a suggestion that there was no fuel in the tanks of the plane. Because had that being fueled the tanks of the plane, I think the risk of fire would have been much greater. So you can just wonder wasn't it running out of gas where you kind of made that yet.

Unfortunately, there are -- is a far high death rate in private aviation than there is in commercial aviation. For example, for the whole of last year, there has been no casualty on an American airline, commercial airliner. The deaths in the last year we have numbers for 2013 were about 400. So you have a much higher chance of dying or being serious to injured in a civilian plane crash because oversee the scale was very enormously between one pilot or another, 86 percent of these crashed involve some kind of pilot mistake.

HARLOW: Clive, thank you very much. Anthony, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Simply, a miracle. Our thoughts with the entire family, especially 7-year-old, Sailor.

Well from a plane crash miracle to this persisting plane crash mystery. Coming up we are live from the Indonesian crisis center as investigators try to find clues in the AirAsia disaster.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARLOW: It has been more than a week now since AirAsia flight 8501 disappeared. And today, search crews found more pieces of that plane and more victims. This, as some of the debris that was recovered today. The weather continues to get in the way of any really fast progress, choppy seas making it very hard to spot anything floating in the water and even harder to retrieve it. The number of bodies so far recovered, 34.

Let's go straight to the city where that plane took off last weekend in Surabaya, Indonesia. Our David Molko is there.

David I know that we have four more of those victims who have been identified. Can you tell us how the people there, the family and loved ones are being informed of the new developments being updated and frankly being comforted?

DAVID MOLKO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Poppy.

Monday morning here, the sun has just risen which means their search should be resuming any minute here.

Let me answer your question first here about the families were outside east Java police headquarters. This is the crisis center where families have been coming everyday for the past week or so, first to the airport, now here outside the police hospital.

Poppy, things seem to be changing in the sense that families are growing a bit more frustrated. Not necessarily with officials but just with the wait. The weather proving to be absolutely frustrating. It's monsoon season here. It is raining in the afternoons and things can change in the blink of an eye. So they are telling me and I spoke to one in particular. His name is (INAUDIBLE). He has four relatives on board including two young granddaughters and he is saying at this point there really is no information. They are just waiting and waiting and waiting.

And Poppy, that's got to be frustrating. At this point, 150 families, roughly 150 families still without answers as you mentioned. Three more victims identified here on Sunday. One of them a 10-year-old girl. Her nickname, Stevie.

HARLOW: Stevie? Wow. Ten years old.

David, let me ask you this. I know that those families are starting to receive these letters from the airline about compensation. But the airline is being careful to say this is not mean that we are confirming your loved one is dead. Can you tell us about those letters and what the airline is doing for them?

MOLKO: Yes, absolutely, Poppy. It is the compensation. This is not an insurance payout. It is, instead, it is to cover the cost of families, you know, being away from work, being away from home, traveling kind of the incidentals, the hardship cost. $24,000 per passenger to put a number on it. Some passengers' families, though Poppy, saying look. It's just too soon. Even with AirAsia saying, you know, this is not conclusively mean that your family members aren't coming home. The gentleman I mentioned earlier, (INAUDIBLE), said you know what? It feels like if I sign this I'm giving up hope.

The mayor here of Surabaya is getting involve. She is looking -- she is working on behalf of the family members to mediate this a little bit and trying sort out the language and get family members a little bit more information on what exactly what they are signing make them a little bit more comfortable at this point -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes, it is an unbelievable task to have to do. And for those families, nothing can comfort them at this time.

David Molko, appreciate the reporting from Surabaya, thank you.

Here with me again to talk more about the search and recovery efforts, Anthony Roman. Also Clive Irving, both pilots. Also joining me is Joshua Schank. He has a non-profit group dedicated to safer flying and better flying policy.

Anthony, thank you all for being here.

Let me begin with you, Anthony. Looking at this as a pilot, when we look at seven days path so far, how critical is everyday in terms of the recovery -- in terms of getting to the bottom of what could have caused this.

ROMAN: It is very critical. In the case of accident investigations such as this, every day that goes by degrades the forensic evidence that is present. The remains become degraded. Oil and chemical residues are wiped away. In this type of monsoon area known as the inter tropical convergence zone by the equator where it is terrible weather, fest currents, the evidence is spread out all over the sea and carried and spread out. So, it really creates a lot of hardship.

HARLOW: And the priority is recovering all 162 bodies, getting them home for their final resting place.

Clive to you, when it comes to those critical black boxes, the flight data recorder, the cockpit voice recorder, that information does not get deteriorated despite the amount of time, right? Because it took two years to find those after Air France flight 447 went down.

IRVING: Yes, Poppy. That's right. I should pretty point out, I'm not a pilot. I have been talking to pilots about this particular situation. It seems to me that they are all looking at the same thing which is the goal that the weather plays and severe storm play. That's why I'm getting that information out of the black box which will give us a description of what the pilots had to deal with. And most pilots I talked to seem to be concern about. It is -- this may be another example of what happened with the Air France (INAUDIBLE) into the South Atlantic. There was some kind of mis-coordination between the automation on the flight (INAUDIBLE) and the pilot's handling of the plane.

And I think that it is too early to jump to that conclusion, but there is a general concern that no pilot should ever meet the situation that is not being trained for. And there is a general concern among pilots now that they are not being trained for exactly this kind of situation where, they have to take over from the confusion and fly the plane out of the particular program. And the big several instance now, that point to a deficiency in pilot training is that one of the most urgent things we really need to know from that flight data recorder is how the pilots themselves perform. We don't even know if it is -- who is actually flying the plane at the time (INAUDIBLE). It would be normally be the co-pilot flying off the captain. And the co-pilot had considerably less experience than this pilot did.

HARLOW: So to that point, Joshua, your group is working a new air traffic technology. But your focus is safety. Safety in the skies. Do you agree with the point that Clive make? Are you concerned about computers running these planes to much?

JOSHUA SCHANK, PRESIDENT, ENO CENTER FOR TRANSPORTATION: No. I think it's quite the opposite, actually. The more we can upgrade technology ad have a better sense of where about where other planes are and more that we can give pilots better information about where other planes are, safer assistance we are going to have. I mean, the pilot error can often be a factor in crashes and that is always going to be a factor. You can do all the training in the world. But the more we automate it, the more we bring better technology into this system, the better chance we have in improving safety.

HARLOW: Guys, thank you very much. Appreciate the expertise. Stay with us. We're going to continue to talk about this rest of the evening here on CNN. A quick break.

And then coming up next, out top story today, the remarkable events here in New York City. What is next for the NYPD after burying their fallen comrades? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well today, right here in New York City, the funeral of New York City police officer Wenjian Liu. Thousands, thousands of police officers from all across the country turned out to show support for this fallen officer, this hero. He was gunned down last month while sitting in his patrol car with his partner, Rafael Ramos. He was only 32 years old. He had just gotten married a few months before. His widow today giving a beautiful eulogy remembering him as her hero.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHEN: The caring son, a loving husband, and a loyal friend. You are an amazing man. Even though he left us early, but I believe he is still with us. His spirit will come to you to look after us. He will keep an eye (INAUDIBLE). Wenjian is my hero. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: We learned a lot more about him today.

Let's talk about him and also the NYPD moving forward. Joining me now, two retired NYPD detectives Harold Thomas and Tom Verni.

Listening today, we heard all of these stories. He was known as Joe by those that loved him by his fellow officers. We were told the story about how much he love to fish. We were told about who he stop playing basketball earlier when he was young to rush home to make dinner for his family and then he later bought a house for his parents. An incredible young man taken from us far too soon.

Harold, you served 29.5 years on the force. You are a detective first-call, am I saying that right?

HAROLD THOMAS, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: First grade.

HARLOW: First grade. What is it like for families when you head out on the beat? When you head out on the street and do your service?

THOMAS: I think most of my time, I really didn't realize at the time that, you know, your family worries about you. They worry if you are going to, you know, make it home in one piece at the end of the night, you know, because they know that it can be a dangerous job.

HARLOW: We were told that Officer Liu said, when he was telling someone why he became a police officer. He said I know it's a dangerous job but I have to do it. If I don't do it and you don't do it, who is going to do it? As we look at the city grappling with really intense relations between some officers in the mayor's office, where do we go from here? What do you think, either of you weigh in. But Tom, it was you?

VERNI: Alright. Yes. And look, as we were talking earlier, I think the mayor has a lot of footwork to do. He has clearly created a rift between himself and the police department. So, how is he going to go by doing this? There is a lot of damage control that has to be accounted for here. So, you know, there needs to be coming together.

Listen, I'm a (INAUDIBLE) diplomat. I would be, you know, if I could be. But I am also a realist. And I know how cops are and how personally this has become for them as a whole. So the mayor is going have to be creative in the way that he himself can attempt to bring about more positive, you know, outcome going forward with the police departments.

HARLOW: Because earlier today, we did see some officers, not as many as the last week's funeral for officer Ramos. But we saw some officers turned their backs there when Mayor de Blasio was giving his eulogy. Let's take a listen to what Patrick Lynch, the president of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, hat union said today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK LYNCH, PRESIDENT, PATROLMEN'S BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATION: I think it's a very emotional time for every New York City police officer and every citizen. We have buried two hero police officers. Police officers feel like they were turned upon by city hall. And we have the right to express our opinion as well. And they did respectfully, not inside the church, not inside the service, but outside where it should be done, on the street like we have the right to do. This was an organic gesture that started in the streets of New York and it should be respected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Harold, this came after NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton sent an internal memo yesterday to all officers asking them not to do this, not to turn their back saying that it takes away from honoring the fallen.

THOMAS: It did. I disagree with pat Lynch. We actually came on the job together in July of 1984. He was in my academy class. I think that it was very disrespectful to the family. I think it took away from the moment for detective Liu. It was his time, you know. And I think by them turning their backs, they took the focus of honoring him. And they did it -- took the focus of honoring detective Ramos. There is a time and a place for everything. And the funerals honoring these heroes is not the place.

HARLOW: Do you think, Tom, when we look at this, that what do you think is at the root of the tension? I guess that's what I'm asking because we have to go somewhere from here, right? We have to move forward as a city. We need our police. We need our mayor. So what do you think is that the root of this?

VERNI: Well, as we discussed a little it earlier, it was some of the points we cover where the fact that when the mayor ran for mayor as a candidate, he ran looking to reform what he was paraphrasing as out of the control racist police department. You know, stop and frisk was out of control and it was. And I think we can probably agree that stop and frisk was kind of off the hook for awhile. And the reason for that was that because they made it part of the constant world where you cannot quantify how many people are you going to stop and fill out reports. It just isn't. Stop and frisk is a part of policing. And you are never going to remove stop and frisk from actual policing itself. When you start quantifying it, that is where it became a problem. So the mayor ran his whole campaign or a lot of his campaign on that. And some other anti-police and anti-NYPD rhetoric as well. And again, at the contract table, the contracts are to expire, he could have brought forth some contracts that weren't unfair and just, but he did. He offered --

HARLOW: He brought more funding to the department.

VERNI: Well, he brought funding for certain things like ipads and things of that nature. But these officers are working four and five years without a contract. We are no racist.

THOMAS: But he has just been a mayor for less than a year. He inherited this. And everybody --

HARLOW: And I think you are supporting the mayor.

THOMAS: Yes. Everybody is putting this for one hand, you know.

VERNI: No, no. But Bloomberg is the one who left contracts die.

THOMAS: Bloomberg, Giuliani, I mean, this attitude has vested in the last 15 to 20 years I have seen it, you know, not all the cops. But some of the cops just got, you know, arrogant and they feel they can just do what they want and get away with it because they have been getting away with it. Right now, Pat Lynch is bullying de Blasio. He's acting like the leader of a gang, you know. And that's what police officers are sworn to protect the people against. And that's what they -- you know, if you ask me, that is what they are doing right now.

HARLOW: So you think de Blasio is being unfairly targeted by some policemen?

THOMAS: Yes. Listen, because he made a statement that maybe he wasn't the right time to say that. But because he made a statement that he had to talk with his son, listen, when my son turned 16, I had 19 years in the police department. I was the first grade detective. His mother was second grade detective. His aunt was a first grade detective. His grandfather was a retired police officer. I had a talk with him also about, you know, how to act , first of all, you respect the law. But if you get pulled over, I told him listen, turn - pull over right away. Turn your lights on. Put your head on the stir wheel. Don't reach for the glove box. Quickly, you know, wait until officer comes and let you know what he is stopping you for and let him know what you are going to do. You got to get your ID. Because I know how easy it is for a situation to turn negative. You know, not saying that it had to be racist or whatever, but you know, as him being a young black man, you know, sometimes people see him as a threat.

HARLOW: mayor de Blasio making those comments in early December. But Tom, you disagree and you believe that they were on called for. And you want to see it sounds like an apology from the mayor?

VERNI: Well, yes. I think again, yes, when you look at the overall way that the mayor has come out against the police department, again, he did it as a candidate. He became mayor. He could have come forth with settling this contract what were expired by then Mayor Bloomberg. But he had the opportunity before the unions had the one who are going to the state to arbitrate this contract. He could have offered them a contract with some fair and equitable races. But he often did basically nothing. So it is not a slap in the face.

And then the reaction with the start, you know, the grand jury verdict in Staten Island to indict the officer. Again, I'm not -- I never said that he shouldn't have these conversations with his son. My father had them with me and I am a white guy. And my father had -- my father was born and raised, you know, Brooklyn kids, so. And we had those conversations when he had them with myself and my sister about how to interact with the police. Don't hold back. The police don't think about when your hand on the police. And that (INAUDIBLE) it is a loss today into some degree. But you know, we had the same conversations. Different subsets of culture.

HARLOW: And look. We have it right here. The two people disagreeing but respectfully disagreeing. And I just hope as the citizen of the city that somehow we can move forward together. As I said, we need our police. They protect us. I am grateful for them and we need our mayor. So let's see where we go from there. We are going to talk more about this in the next hour. We are going

to have you both on. We have to get a quick break in and get to other news. But thank you for being with us. More on this ahead this evening, right here on CNN.

Also the story we continue to follow very closely, that continuing search for the remains of AirAsia flight 8501. Our next guest poses this question. Are pilots relying too much on automation or upgrades in technology making us safer? We will talk about it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Investigators don't yet know what was happening in the cockpit of AirAsia flight 8501 and they won't really know until they retrieve the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder. They do know that the pilot wanted to divert. The captain asked to divert from the pre-programmed flight plan to get around bad weather, asked elevated up to 38,000 feet.

Let's talk about this and the technology specifically in this type of an air bus A-320 plane.

Let me bring back in my panel we have with us. Clive Irving, "Daily Beast" contributor and author of "Jumbo, the making of the 7474." Also with us Anthony Roman with me here in New York, former commercial pilot and flight instructor. And also Joshua Schank who runs a non- profit and focuses on flying safety.

So Joshua, let me get to you first. You and I were speaking a little earlier in the program. And you said, the better this, the more technology, the more computerized these planes are the better, the safer for us.

SCHANK: Yes, that's right. I mean if you look at the safety record of aviation, commercial aviation in particular, over the last several decades, it's improved to the point where we have -- there is almost no safer place to be than on a commercial airline in the United States. And a big reason for that is improvements in technology.

Computers make errors. But people make errors much more frequently. People do things that are not necessarily in our best interest and can often make mistakes in terms of how they are prepared for a flight or they are well prepared for what they should be -- what specific situation they're in. Computers make errors much less frequently and improve safety pretty dramatically.

HARLOW: So Anthony, as a pilot, do you -- former commercial pilot, so you agree with that? And I also wonder I did see some of the notes that you sent. And they said that the computer can override the pilots. Is that the case on an air bus?

ROMAN: That's right. The digital fly by wire system on an air bus has a feature called light and below protection. Simply what that means is that, it can override a pilots control inputs during the course of the flight. This becomes significant and extreme emergencies such as this air bus perhaps encounter due to severe weather.

What happens is the air bus will re-birth to what it a software requires to keep the aircraft within its flight envelop. Now that sounds like it is great idea. But in extreme emergencies, very skilled pilots can exceed the flight envelope of an aircraft safely and bring it to a better conclusion. Now, the air bus for example, does not have a flight envelop override feature that Boeing 777 does have an override feature for emergencies so the pilots can have full control of the aircraft.

HARLOW: So Clive, your take on that?

IRVING: Well, as a paradox here and that it is perfectly true that, as I said in my "Daily Beast" story today that the whole progressive improvement and the safety in flying which is remarkable has been board about entirely by technical advisors which eliminate to one course of the crash after another.

However, we reached a point here where an automation is here to stay. Make no mistake about it. It makes the plane fly far more efficiently. It is a much more efficient machine and it is a much safer machine.

Most of the time that we reached a point where we have to focus on this moment when if the -- it is computer's encounter program as they did with the Air France 447, it basically management system shuts down. And although it is true that the envelop protection system is there on an air bus, it is not there when the flight management system shuts down. It has led to pilots to flight it manually.

I have actually been to going out, been to air bus and beam in simulator to see the difference between these two systems. And neither air bus nor Boeing claims that their system is safe than the other. What they do say is that one is center difference between these two assistance. But Boeing system leaves the pilot in command. The pilot has the last word.

The air bus system, when the fly management computes the working doesn't leave the pilot in command. And because they argue that they stop the pilots in doing what many pilot used to in the past which is to over correct (ph) on an emergence or take off before landing.

So the reality is that automation is never going leave us. If for example in big jets, we used to have three people take flight. They are not two. There was a flight engineer, and the pilot and co-pilot. We came down to two. We are going to come down to one pilot. Why? Because we need those two men on that flight to handle situation which is where the only the human reaction -- and what is attribute here in the pilot's (INAUDIBLE), this is the rewind thing. That many pilots are flying around with these jets that they have never experienced the kind of emergency that overtook flight 447 because they are being trained for. There are (INAUDIBLE) rewritten now to do that. But we have to come to successful reconciliation of the skills of the pilot and the automation.

HARLOW: Clive, Anthony, Joshua, fascinating conversation. Thank you, guys, very much.

Quick break. We'll be back on the other side.

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HARLOW: For decades, film critics Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert argued explosively over movies. We all watched them. Fans loved to see the two trade barbs and insults on their weekly TV show. My next guest knew Roger Ebert very well. He knew him before he was famous.

Let me bring in journalist and author, Bill Mack, Ebert's longtime, lifelong friend really.

Thank you for being here.

BILL MACK, AUTHOR: Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: You are in this fascinating documentary airing tonight on CNN called "life, itself" about Roger Ebert. You talk a lot about your friend. You were both on the University of Illinois student newspaper together. So take me back a few decades and tell me what he was like and if he thought then that he would become such an icon.

MACK: Well, Roger was, you know, he was sophisticated beyond his years, as a journalist, and sophisticated beyond his years in the realm of writing the English language and understanding English and American literature. He had a deep understanding of literature and writing. He always could write fast. He wrote intimidatingly fast. He would drive the rest of the staff crazy because he could sit down and write a column, a very literate column, with literary illusions at typing speed. He could finish a column in 40 minutes or an hour.

HARLOW: Wow.

MACK: And I just say to him, how do you do that? And he said, you know, Bill, he said, I have always been able to do that. I've always been able to write fast and express myself clearly.

You know, Poppy, by the time he left the University of Illinois, he was really ready to be a journalist in the big-time. He went to Chicago. He was going to be Mike Roiko. He was going to follow in the footsteps of Ben Hect and Charles McArthur front page. And that's what he did. And -- but he got diverted. He went into film criticism. You know, he did not go into journalism to be a film critic. I'm sorry?

HARLOW: I just wanted to play this bite for you and get your reaction. So let me play this part of the movie from you and get you to react on the other side.

MACK: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The heart knows what the heart knows. And so I fell in love with Roger. He fell in love with me. And I wanted him to be, you know, open and transparent about racial issues because there were some members of his family who didn't -- he was afraid they wouldn't accept me at first, and he would say, well, it's because you're not catholic.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You were like, I might be more than that, Roger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, right. And eventually he owned up to it, but we all became one big happy family, and I loved his family and adored his family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So that was not a clip from the film. We'll get to that in one second. But that was an interview from his wife, Chaz, who he loved so much, with our Brooke Baldwin. He said of her, Roger Ebert before he died, her love was like a wind, pushing me back from my own grave. And when I heard that, it -- I broke down. Tell me about them together.

MACK: Well, they -- Roger, all of his life, when he left Illinois, and we'd hang out together and we'd get together occasionally, he really was looking for the love of his life. He had been looking for it all of his youth, and he was caught in a difficult situation. His mother wanted him to marry a catholic virgin, and it was -- that's a tough find anywhere nowadays, and it was in those days. And especially not only a virgin, but somebody that, you know, who was catholic.

And Roger, you know, was very constrained. He was very much under the thrall of his mother. And when she finally passed, it gave him -- it freed him to find someone like Chaz. Someone that would -- someone that he could love and -- whether she would have been accepted by Roger's mother or not, I doubt it. I mean, she had family. She was divorced. And, but this didn't matter suddenly, and Roger just absolutely fell in love with her. He called me one day and said, I'm in love with somebody, I want to get married and he said I want you to meet her next time you're in Chicago. So the next time I was in Chicago, I went to his house and we met. And he was absolutely devoted to her, as she was devoted to him.

HARLOW: Yes. She just seems like an extraordinary, extraordinary woman. We have to get to a break, but very quickly before we do, I want to ask you this. How do you think Roger Ebert would react if he knew this story about his life, "Life Itself" is on the short list for an academy award nomination?

MACK: Well, I think he would be delighted. And I think he'd give the film two thumbs up. I thought Steve James, the director, did a terrific job collecting the information and putting it into an artistic real -- it was a -- it was an artistic bit of film making. And I think Roger would have been delighted with it, particularly because it's true, and he didn't gloss over anything. He was very honest. He went with the good and the bad and the happy times and the difficult times.

HARLOW: Yes.

MACK: And the alcoholism and then finding Chaz and blooming as a person. And falling in love. It's all in there. And I think roger would have loved that.

HARLOW: It's all in there. It's a wonderful movie. Thank you for your time. Lucky that you got to be friends with him. Thank you, Bill. Appreciate it.

And for all of you, please check out "Life Itself" airing tonight 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. We'll be right back.

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