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Don Lemon Tonight

Police Under Fire; Father of Wounded NYPD Officer Speaks Out; Battle Between NYPD and Mayor; Is the KKK Recruiting?; KKK Billboard Protested in Arkansas; Remebering Mario Cuomo

Aired January 06, 2015 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Exclusive. Police under fire. The father of one New York City cop speaks out after his son and another officer are shot responding to an armed robbery in the Bronx. The crime caught on surveillance video just moments before the officers were gunned down in the line of duty.

Tonight the suspect in custody. The officers in a New York hospital. And Mayor Bill de Blasio's visit to the wounded officers stirring up trouble.

What will it take to stop the war between the country's biggest police force and the mayor? And what about the mayor's wife attending a slain officer's funeral in jeans?

We should all be able to agree that black lives matter. Blue lives matter. Every life matters. So this is exactly what America doesn't need right now. A revitalized KKK.

Who are they targeting for recruitment? And is hate on the rise? We're going to talk with the man behind that billboard right there.

Lots to get to tonight, though. And I want to begin with latest on the NYPD under fire. Two officers shot on the job last night. It was breaking news here on CNN.

CNN's Miguel Marquez is here -- Miguel Marquez is here with more.

What's the latest on the investigation now?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, NYPD is wrapping this thing up fairly quickly. This is an investigation that turned into a city- wide manhunt very quickly. NYPD was able to pull into custody three individuals.

One of the suspects was shot by a police officer. A total of six bullets were fired in all of this. Three by the suspect. Three by one NYPD officer. It hit one of the suspects in the leg. He then went to a Manhattan hospital.

Fed them a line, says NYPD. They -- they were able to break that down. He led them to the person who brought them there. He led them to a guy named Jason Polanco, the person in the surveillance video that we see shooting that gun. Police have them now all in custody. Two arrested. One in custody. So it's pretty much wrapped up.

LEMON: How are the officers doing?

MARQUEZ: Amazingly well. One -- both of them shot through the arm. One in the chest. Then one in the back. It went through their arm. And it went in the chest and the back. They are both in stable condition. Through surgery. And one of them may be out of the hospital by tomorrow.

LEMON: How is the department viewing this given everything that's happened over the last couple of weeks?

MARQUEZ: Both the unions and the department making a very big deal of this. Because there's all this talk about a slowdown. Is there a blue flu? Is NYPD not making arrests, not making summons, not making tickets? They're saying, look, these are the guys who were off-duty. They were going off-duty. They raced out there. Five guys. Out of the 46th Precinct. They heard about this robbery.

Some of them may not even had their protective armor on. They're protected vest on. They got there. And stopped this thing from continuing. And then eventually got these guys arrested. So they're making a very big deal of the fact that they are not taking a break. They are going into dangerous situations. And doing the tough work that police do.

LEMON: But it is -- I think they believe that these officers weren't targeted because the suspects did not know that they were police officers.

MARQUEZ: This is the biggest thing that they are saying obviously. This is not a replay of Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu. This was a robbery in progress. These were -- officers were part of the robbery investigation. They were plainclothes police. They showed up there on the scene. They didn't go directly to where the robbery occurred. They went around looking for the suspects in the neighborhood. And they were able to find them and engage in a gun battle and were able to -- eventually make arrests.

LEMON: Miguel, thank you.

MARQUEZ: You got it.

LEMON: Joining me now, exclusively, Joseph Dossi, his son, Officer Andrew Dossi was one of the officers shot last night.

Mr. Dossi, thank you very much. We're really sorry about your son. How is he doing?

JOSEPH DOSSI, FATHER OF OFFICER ANDREW DOSSI WHO WAS SHOT IN THE BRONX: Well, he's doing quite well. He is getting a little better. He is making an attempt to eat which is a good sign.

LEMON: What do -- what did you think when you got the news that he had been shot in the line of duty? DOSSI: The first thing that comes to your head is this really can't

be happening. And then of course when police are telling you that he's in critical and he's been shot twice, I think the worst things possible can go through your mind.

LEMON: Yes. He had surgery on his arm which was shattered by a bullet, right? And then he was also shot in the lower back. Correct?

DOSSI: Yes.

LEMON: Yes.

DOSSI: The -- the back, luckily it missed his spine. And it didn't strike any vital organs.

LEMON: I want to ask you about the suspects. Police have three men in custody now including the gunman. They say shot and wounded your son and his partner. Does your son know anything about these suspects? And that they're off the streets?

DOSSI: I am not aware of it. I just found out myself. I haven't been able to talk to my son today. Possibly later, I'm going to try to drive down to the hospital where I will spend a few hours with him.

LEMON: He is a police officer. He is a staff sergeant with the -- with the Army. Served two different tours in Iraq. He was airborne jumping and rappelling out of helicopters. He served as a military policeman at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Clearly serving his country is important to him?

DOSSI: Yes, he's the type of -- that's the type of guy he is. He is patriotic. He loves the country. He loves the country. And he loves being a police officer. He thinks it's like a very noble thing to do, to try to help people.

LEMON: Did he speak to you about any of the -- the current events happening with the NYPD?

DOSSI: Well, we talked about the gentleman in Staten Island who was selling the cigarettes.

LEMON: Eric Garner.

DOSSI: It's some unfortunate situation that happened. You know, these guys were doing their job. Something went wrong. Maybe things got to be changed.

LEMON: What do you mean?

DOSSI: Maybe, you know, selling cigarettes isn't exactly -- doesn't mean the guy is dangerous. These are like -- that's like nuisance crimes.

LEMON: Did he ever have anything to say about, you know, the current rift with the police department and the mayor?

DOSSI: You know, since they're the guys that are in the street dealing with things, they should get the support.

LEMON: Yes. Did he -- he didn't attend the funerals, did he?

DOSSI: Yes, he did.

LEMON: He did. Did he turn his back?

DOSSI: Both officers. I don't think so. If he did, I don't know about it.

LEMON: So the entire country, really the entire world is watching now, paying close attention to New York City and the mayor. Especially since obviously the two officers were executed.

What do you want people around the country to know about this city, your son, police officers, in New York City?

DOSSI: The crime rate in New York I know has gone down greatly. And it's mostly due to the police officers. When people are in Times Square, and they walk around, and they see these police officers standing there, you know, or on patrol, it makes them feel good. They know those guys are highly trained and they're there to protect them.

LEMON: Do you want to see them return to duty?

DOSSI: If that's what he wants. I know that's what he loves doing.

LEMON: Your son is a single dad. I think his daughter is 8 years old. And you decided not to tell her that she was shot. Why is that?

DOSSI: My wife and I thought it might like really upset her. So we just -- we made up a story that he fell and he got hurt and he is OK. And we were going to have her talk to him tonight on the phone. Just to reassure her that he is OK. They're very, very close.

LEMON: He sounds like a great dad.

DOSSI: He has his moments. Like we all do.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: It's very honest of you. I appreciate your candor here. Thank you. Our thoughts are with him.

DOSSI: OK, thank you very much. I appreciate it. And God bless the NYPD.

LEMON: We've got a lot more ahead on this.

When we come right back, in a city where some police officers literally turned their backs on the mayor, where some have even said that they don't want him at their funerals and if they are killed in the line of duty they don't want him there.

What will it take to end the war between police and city hall? What will it take? Also the rise of the Ku Klux Klan, and shocking reason, the shocking

reason they're targeting returning veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan for recruitment. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Many New York City police officers just don't trust Mayor Bill de Blasio. They feel he sides with protesters and not police. One political commentator calls the relationship toxic.

Joining me is Tara Setmayer, CNN political commentator and Republican strategist, and Lizz Brown, a criminal defense attorney and columnist for the "St. Louis American Newspaper."

Hello to both of you. Thank you for coming on.

You know, when I spoke to the father of NYPD officer Andrew Dossi, who was shot last night, I asked if there was tension between his son and the mayor when the mayor visited him in the hospital last night. He didn't really want to get into that during the conversation but clearly there is some tension there between the NYPD and the mayor, Tara.

What is -- what can be done to solve this problem?

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, I don't blame these officers. I mean the rank-and-file, they're the ones who are out there every day, putting their lives on the line to protect the people of New York City. And the overwhelming majority of them do that with distinction and honor. And here you have a mayor who has clearly created a perception whether he feels that way or not that he is not on the side of his police officers.

And that's a problem for any major city mayor. So the first thing that the mayor needs to do is he needs to humble himself and apologize. He needs to apologize to all the men and women in uniform who he's offended with his comments, saying that, you know, they -- alleged assaults, when it was clear that police officers were assaulted by protesters during one of the protests. And some of the other things that he said concerning his son.

I mean, these things are not helpful in a situation like this where you need to have the support of your local police officers if you're going to be successful running the city. And it's been a -- it's been a contentious relationship from day one with this mayor. I mean, he ran against certain policies and ran against the tougher policing of the last administration. So going into it there was already tension.

LEMON: OK.

SETMAYER: And this hasn't made the situation any better. He needs to apologize.

LEMON: Do you agree, Lizz, that he has to apologize?

LIZZ BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the question that I would have to ask is apologize for what? Apologize for acknowledging that his African-American son experienced things differently than the white community? Apologize for saying that everybody has the right to speak in the city? It's remarkable to me that there is a request being made of this mayor to apologize for talking lovingly, compassionately about the life experience of his African-American son.

LEMON: OK, Lizz.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Lizz, point taken.

BROWN: Yes.

LEMON: Here's the thing that struck me last night. That Charles Ogletree said. Regardless of how you feel about it, do you think the mayor should apologize or not. He says, according to Ogletree, no mayor has been successful in New York City without the support of the police department.

BROWN: That's correct.

LEMON: So the reality is maybe he feels one way but as Tara is saying, should he in some way humble himself to the police department to try to mitigate what's happened?

BROWN: Again you're asking someone to humble themselves for what? To what end? And for what? We have police officers who are asking the community, asking the world that's watching this, we are lawful people, right? We should be supported because we do lawful things. And yet they are not following the rules. They are engaging in work slowdowns. They are not -- they're simply not following the rules. And so a mayor who wants to effectively run and govern an entire city has to be mindful of that. Has to acknowledge that. And has to respond to that.

And I don't think that anybody has really had -- very few mayors in New York have had pleasant, positive, consistently, positive relationships with the police.

LEMON: OK. Let's --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Which is one of the things.

SETMAYER: But that's not true. I mean --

LEMON: Quickly, Tara.

SETMAYER: Only Rudy Giuliani and Bloomberg, over 20 years with their support of the police, I mean, you're going to have your union disputes. That's fine. But at this level, you know, this is a different story. I mean, you had 2,000 murders in 1990. And it's down to 328 now. They were -- they were allowed to have successful policing and aggressive policing to protect the people of New York City.

This is a different place. And that's so you can't sit here and say that no mayor has been successful. That's absolutely not true.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I said few mayors. And --

SETMAYER: Well --

BROWN: I said few mayors --

LEMON: But even -- hang on. Hang on. Even according to -- Tara, Liz.

BROWN: At what cost? At what cost?

LEMON: Even according to Police Commissioner Bill Bratton, all mayors have issues with the police department.

BROWN: Absolutely.

LEMON: That's just --

BROWN: Absolutely.

LEMON: That's -- that's what happens with the job.

BROWN: It's part of it. Part of the job.

LEMON: It's part of the job. So listen. These officers, though, literally turned their backs on the mayor. If you look at the military. Almost 15 percent or so of active duty service members approve of President Obama. You don't see them turning their back on him. Isn't there a chain of command that exists? Don't officers need to at least respect the office?

BROWN: Absolutely.

LEMON: Tara first? Then Lizz.

SETMAYER: I mean, yes, they need to respect the office. But again, I understand their frustration here with this. And I don't blame them for doing that. You know, two of their fellow comrades were gunned down in cold blood, assassinated. And partially, you know, the protests and the anti-police rhetoric contributed to that assassination. And you have a mayor who didn't come out and stand with his police department.

He decided -- and he has someone like Al Sharpton sitting there, putting him -- giving him a seat at the table, a race provocateur, like a shakedown artist like Al Sharpton, sitting there -- giving him equal footing with the police chief?

LEMON: OK.

BROWN: Again we have --

SETMAYER: That kind of stuff is not helpful at all.

LEMON: Again, Lizz -- let Lizz get in there. Go ahead, Lizz.

BROWN: Again we have police officers that are saying, follow the law. Follow the rules. And they're not following the rules. The police department is a paramilitary organization. They are required to respond to requests and directions without question, without doing anything. So even in our jobs. If I were to walk into my office and turn my back on my boss, there would be repercussions. Your shift --

(CROSSTALK)

SETMAYER: Yes, but your life isn't on the line every day when you walk into your office.

BROWN: That doesn't matter.

SETMAYER: And sit behind your desk.

BROWN: That doesn't matter. There are rules that are supposed to be followed.

SETMAYER: You have people trying to shoot you and kill you every day. There's a difference.

BROWN: There are rules that is supposed to be followed. And even if -- even if you don't like the job then you need to leave the job. If you can't follow the rules, then you shouldn't be in the job. That's the question.

LEMON: OK.

SETMAYER: If you're --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So it sounds to me, Lizz. It sound to me, Lizz, like you're saying that this is all about respect. And this is how bad it's gotten. That some people are criticizing -- are questioning the mayor's wife's choice of fashion, of pants, she wore jeans to the officers' funeral this weekend. Was that disrespectful?

BROWN: I don't see how we are even -- why would we even be talking about this? I don't understand.

LEMON: It is a big deal here in New York City. Trust me.

BROWN: But again -- well, I guess fashion would be a big issue in New York City.

LEMON: It's not about the fashion.

SETMAYER: No, it's just a matter of showing respect.

LEMON: It's about respect, Lizz.

SETMAYER: It's a matter of showing respect. I mean, you know -- I mean, she couldn't even, you know, put on -- put on a decent suit or a dress to go to a cop's funeral? To go down in jeans? I can understand why people would feel some kind of way about that because it just so --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: But again, these are the same people --

LEMON: And Lizz, I'll give you the last word.

BROWN: These are the same people that are saying because we don't like the words that the mayor spoke, we are going to not do our jobs.

SETMAYER: It's his action.

BROWN: We are not going to follow the law. We are not going to adhere to the rules that apply to people and paramilitary organizations.

LEMON: OK.

BROWN: That's ridiculous and indefensible.

LEMON: I've got to go.

Lizz Brown, Tara Setmayer, thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you.

SETMAYER: Thank you.

BROWN: Is the Ku Klux Klan on the rise in America? Take a look at this billboard in Arkansas.

Is it part of a recruitment effort? And do Americans really need to be concerned about the KKK in 2015? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. The KKK has resurfaced in the town of Harrison, Arkansas, with this billboard.

The group that put it up says, it's just an ad for a Web-based radio station. But some say the billboard and other messages turning up around the county -- around the country, I should say, are part of a KKK recruitment campaign.

CNN's Ed Lavandera takes a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A few weeks ago in some small towns near Indianapolis, residents woke up to find these fliers delivered like newspapers on their front lawns. The Ku Klux Klan pushing its comeback.

In the quiet neighborhood of Rutherford, New Jersey, the Klan passed out fliers telling white America to wake up and urging people to join the white supremist movement. And in Harrison, Arkansas, the Klan put up this billboard celebrating white pride radio.

THOMAS ROBB, KU KLUX KLAN: The message is that white people have a right to be proud of who they are. Everybody else has a right to be proud. And I don't deny that.

LAVANDERA: The KKK is firing up recruiting efforts across the country. Hate group watch dogs say it's a coordinated effort among various Klan organizations driven by anger over racial and political issues.

(On camera): We are in northeast Texas, a recruiter with the Ku Klux Klan in these parts has agreed to meet with us. He said to meet him here. And that he would take us to a wooded secluded area where he'd feel more comfortable talking as long as we didn't show his face.

HENRY, RECRUITER, TEXAS KNIGHTS: People are fed up.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): This is Henry, and he asked us to also alter his voice. He is a recruiter with the Texas Knights.

(On camera): Is there a concerted effort to recruit members into the Klan right now.

HENRY: Yes, sir.

LAVANDERA: In the last few months how many new members have you recruited?

HENRY: My personal recruitment, since I recruited over 40.

LAVANDERA: Over 40. In the last --

HENRY: Month.

LAVANDERA: In the last month?

HENRY: Yes, sir.

LAVANDERA: But if you feel that pride and you feel strongly about this why does the Klan still use the robes and the headdress?

HENRY: Because our government consider us domestic terrorists. They consider us right-wing extremists.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Henry says he joined the Texas Knights four years ago after meeting people at right-wing political rallies.

(On camera): You think your culture is better than the others?

HENRY: Absolutely. Absolutely.

LAVANDERA: No question?

HENRY: No question.

LAVANDERA: Do you think blacks and Hispanics, or Asians are lesser people?

HENRY: Yes, I do.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Brian Levin is the director of the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism. He says despite the Klan's efforts to recruit new members the group is a disappearing relic.

BRIAN LEVIN, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF HATE AND EXTREMISM: The Klan is not a player anymore. They are masters of smoke and mirrors, of trying to appear important, of trying to appear active, and appear bigger when in fact they're not.

LAVANDERA: Levin says in its heyday of the 1920s, the Ku Klux Klan was deeply ingrained in American society with nearly five million members including elected officials. Today, Levin says the Klan has about 5,000 members.

LEVIN: All they can do now is be an irritant to America rather than a true threat. What they can do is they can exploit existing racial and ethnic tensions. They can exploit the distrust that Americans have in institutions like government and the media. But they as a solitary entity cannot gain traction with getting members.

LAVANDERA (on camera): A lot of people say that the Klan is basically a shadow of its former self.

HENRY: That's what we want them to think.

LAVANDERA: That's what you want them to think?

HENRY: Absolutely.

LAVANDERA: You think they're wrong though?

HENRY: Yes, I would think so. That's how we want the public to see us, as a shadow. (INAUDIBLE).

LAVANDERA (voice-over): But in the dark corners of Texas and many other parts of the country, the Ku Klux Klan legacy of hate lives on.

Ed Lavandera, CNN, near Texarkana, Texas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Well, joining me, Jeff Crockett. He is the former mayor of Harrison, Arkansas, where the billboard we showed you earlier is.

Mayor, you're not pleased with this billboard. You were the mayor when it was put up. Did you try to stop it?

JEFF CROCKETT, FORMER HARRISON, ARKANSAS MAYOR: No, I did not. It's a freedom of speech issue. You know, they're totally entitled to represent their views any way they want. We might not like it. We don't have to agree with it. We're entitled to represent our views in the way we want. And that's what we're trying to do.

LEMON: The community is predominantly white. Are people outraged?

CROCKETT: Yes.

LEMON: Are they supportive?

CROCKETT: Of the billboard? No, I don't believe they're supportive at all. I think they would look to see it gone. It causes us loss of tourism, it causes us some loss of employment here in town. We have had some corporate prospects come through town that have wondered about the past billboard and I'm sure they will about this one. And have reserved locating here because of it.

We've had people trying to transfer into town with different companies here that have decided not to move to Harrison, Arkansas, to move to Branson, Missouri, instead just because they didn't want to raise their kids around what they're afraid might be here.

LEMON: The one we just showed was one that said anti-racist is code for anti-white. That was one that early but before I get to that, I want to ask you this. You said they're not supportive of the billboard. Are they supportive of the billboard's message, though?

CROCKETT: I don't believe so. Not at all. Our majority of our community is totally acceptive. They want to grow. They want to be welcoming to all people. And I don't think they're acceptive of the billboard message at all.

LEMON: Yes, so again the billboard again, that's the second one that popped up. The sort of yellow-looking one, the fluorescent looking one is the one that popped up earlier.

CROCKETT: Yes.

LEMON: Was posted in the area last year.

CROCKETT: Yes.

LEMON: You protested this billboard.

CROCKETT: Yes.

LEMON: And why are these messages popping up now, do you think?

CROCKETT: I don't know why they're popping up. You know, I am sure, Tom Robb will tell you what their position is. I imagine they're trying to recruit members. They're trying to promote their business. You know, they have a radio station. They have web (ph) presence. They sell a lot of Klan memorabilia. You know, it's a business model for them. They got us -- they've got families to support and a business to grow. LEMON: OK. All right. Thank you very much, Jeff Crockett, the former mayor of Harrison, Arkansas. We appreciate it. Now, I want to bring in Thomas Robb, national director of the knights of the KKK. His group is responsible for the billboard. He says there is nothing offensive about it that it's simply an advertisement about for web based radio station. So, I appreciate you joining me as well. Your organization sponsored the billboard.

THOMAS ROBB, NATIONAL DIRECTOR KNIGHTS OF THE KU KLUX KLAN: That's correct.

LEMON: Right now, there is so much national attention on race given the protest all across the country. I want to get right to the point here. How is this billboard not racist?

ROBB: If anybody sees racism in that billboard then they themselves are racist. The billboard just asks white people to do the same thing that every other racial ethnic people in this country is allowed and encouraged to do. Nobody would be offended if a black put on the billboard or if they love their heritage or love their culture, love their people, and they're encouraged to do so. But when a white person simply says to love your people, that is considered racism? Come on. Those people that find racism there are really exposing their own racism.

LEMON: So why do you feel the need to put up...

(CROSSTALK)

ROBB: (Inaudible) what they really are, is anti-white?

LEMON: Why do you feel the need to put the billboard up? I haven't seen any, you know, it's I heart black people. I heart Hispanic people. Why do you feel the need?

ROBB: Because white people have the right to love their heritage, love their culture and to love their people. And white people are tired of hearing of other races who are encouraged to do that. And yet again when a white person says I love my people then people -- some people call that racism.

LEMON: I assume that you're aware of history?

ROBB: And they're really -- they're really exposing their own racism.

LEMON: So people remember the by gone days of lynching, of men hiding behind white robes. Do you understand why so many people associate the KKK with being a bigoted organization?

ROBB: Yes. Well, I don't care -- I really don't care of what happened 20 years ago, 30 years or 40 years. I'm concerned about white people today and I'm concerned about the genocide against white people.

LEMON: Are you willing to distance yourself from the KKK's previous activities? ROBB: I will distance myself from any type of hate. Absolutely. I

don't believe in hate. I believe black people should love their heritage. I think people that are Asians should love their people. I think people that are Mexicans should love their culture and their people. I have no problem with that. My problem is the hypocrisy that encourages other races to love their people but wants to demonize and throw a mud at a white person who simply says love your people.

LEMON: Yes. But -- I understand what you are saying. But you also condone (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

ROBB: Good. I'm glad you do. Many, many people do.

LEMON: I don't understand what you're saying in that statement right there if that was that alone. But you are also saying that people should be segregated, that should be all white communities, that the country needs to be taken back by its founders. There are other things that go along with that message that you're saying that you're leaving out there.

ROBB: Well, if you are reading something else to that message, that's your -- that's your problem. Our message is to white people to love your people, love your heritage, love your culture, do the same thing that every other race is encouraged to do.

LEMON: OK. So let me -- let me -- this is the reason I'm saying this. When you go to your website, it's listed in the billboard. It redirects you to the kkkradio.com, OK? The Internet radio station you and your family are affiliated with.

ROBB: Correct.

LEMON: Here is what it says about the page. It says, "A lot of people recognize that there is an ongoing program of genocide against white people. There are web sites, newsletters, videos, and radio shows, but too many talk about family without including the family. It has always been our mission to not just promote the white family but to make them a part of this cause of a white Christian revival." So do you believe there its a war on white race?

ROBB: Absolutely.

LEMON: That's what it sounds like?

ROBB: Yes. Yes. I think it is self-evident what happened to this country in the past 50 years. Yes, I believe it is self-evident.

LEMON: OK.

ROBB: I think it is self-evident that -- I think it's self-evident that when people pick a sign like this billboard and call it racism. It shows their racism against white people who want to do nothing more but love their people.

LEMON: Do you believe that diversity inclusions are good things having a community of -- people of all colors and religions and background?

ROBB: I am a strong believer in diversity. I believe that black people should have -- love their people, love their -- encourage to love their culture. I have no problem with black people, Asians. I have no problem with any of those people loving who they are. My issue is with the hypocrisy that wants to demonize a white person who wants to have joy and pride in his own racial identity.

LEMON: Thomas Robb, thanks for coming on.

ROBB: You're welcome.

LEMON: So just how large is the KKK in America in 2015 and who is the Klan targeting for recruitment? Up next, some surprising answers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So how strong is the Ku Klux Klan today and how dangerous are they? Joining me now is Mark Potok, senior fellow at the Southern Poverty Law Center, and Daryl Davis, author of "Klan-Destine Relationships - A Black Man's Odyssey in the Ku Klux Klan." All right. So, Mark, with Michael Brown and Eric Garner cases dominating the headlines, it seems as if that the racial divide in the country is worse than ever. You would think that -- do you think this is true or do you see an increase in the Ku Klux Klan activities?

MARK POTOK, SENIOR FELLOW SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: Well, I think it is true that race relations are not doing well right now. I absolutely do not think it is true that the Klan is growing. The Klan is weak. It is poorly led. It's led by men like Tom Robb who really can't even explain what it is they're looking for and it's smaller all the time. We've had an awful lot of press about the Klan in the last year, but that has been something the Klan has been essentially promoting. They do a little flyering and they get a story in the newspapers.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But they're using current events that are happening in the news as recruitment efforts?

POTOK: Well, yes, they are. That is certainly true, but it's mostly bogus. For instance, you know, a particular Klan group said it was going to go to Ferguson and guard white businesses. It claimed to be there with shotguns and so on defending people in Ferguson and that's simply not true. The group never showed up. It was simply then trying to make hay while the sun shines. So the same is true of the unaccompanied migrant children at the border crisis that happened late last year. You know, a Klansman said that what we should do is go to the border and leave a few corpses that would solve the immigration problem.

LEMON: So who are they targeting now?

POTOK: Of course, nothing at all came of that other than a lot of headlines. LEMON: Who are they targeting with their recruitment efforts?

POTOK: Well, they're making an effort simply to bring in anyone they can. For many of these Klan leaders, new members mean dues. And there are a number of Klan leaders, like Tom Robb who live off of the dues that members pay them and the various things, the trinkets they sell and so on as Mayor Crockett referenced a little earlier.

LEMON: Are veterans part of this?

POTOK: It's also true -- I'm sorry?

LEMON: Are veterans -- returning veterans part of their -- the people they're targeting?

POTOK: Yeah. Veterans are a target of interest not only for the Klan but for groups on the extreme right in general. You know, what these groups say is, these are the men and women who will have the skills to fight the race war that is coming any day. So, they always -- for many, many years have been looking at people returning from theaters like Afghanistan and Iraq, but I don't think there is really much evidence that they're having any particular success in recent years.

LEMON: So you think they will have the skills but are they -- do they find them particularly vulnerable in any way?

POTOK: Well, to the extent that -- many veterans coming back from those war theaters have been damaged or suffering from PTSD, feel alienated from the society and so on. Yes, they're a little more vulnerable or some of them are a little more vulnerable than perhaps the larger society. But I do not think it is true they're recruiting large numbers of military veterans. I don't think that's happening.

LEMON: OK. I want to get Daryl in now. You know, what Mark said and analyzes a radical right, you are seeking friendships with KKK members. Why are you doing that?

DARYL DAVIS, AUTHOR OF KLAN-DESTINE RELATIONSHIPS - A BLACK MAN'S ODYSSEY IN THE KU KLUX KLAN: Well, not necessarily seeking friendships with them, but that has evolved through out communications. What I do is I get together with a lot of these people and I question them, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? Sometimes we'll sit down and have lunch. I sat down and had lunch with Tom Robb in Harrison, Arkansas a few months back. I sat down with Frank Ancona of the Traditionalist American Knights. I don't hate those people. Some of them I don't believe hate me, but I don't support their ideology. Sometimes over time some of these people end up changing their beliefs. It is not my effort to get out there and try to convert them. What I'm doing is I am putting a human face on people who do not look like them.

LEMON: How do they react to you when they see you?

DAVIS: Well, initially, a lot of them did not know I was black before they met me. So you know, they were a bit surprised. But now, they all know that I'm black. When I call or whatever, they choose to meet me or not meet me. Some of them were very curious about me as I am about them. But over time, you know, you find that you have more in common with some one than you do in contrast. And what I seek to do is just put a human face on humanity and let them make up their own minds. And I've been pretty successful in some instances.

LEMON: Yes. You know, when I walked into the studio, the guys in the studio have the same question. Did Tom Robb know I was black? That's what I had for my producers as well. Did he know I was black? So maybe he did his home work, maybe he didn't. What do your friends and family say when you -- when they see pictures of you with these guys? And as I understand you developed relationships with them. They even give you souvenirs and you have some.

DAVIS: Well, yes. I have some robes and hoods, you know, that have been given to me by Klan leaders and Klan members who have left the organization. And -- but let me point out something, you know, that, you know, that Mark is saying that I'm saying. You know, we keep using the term the Klan. And today, there is no such thing any longer as the Ku Klux Klan. There are many Ku Klux Klan groups that all wear the same colors on their robes, use the same titles and ranks and passwords and secret handshakes, et cetera, but these are all autonomous groups, you know, using the name Ku Klux Klan. And in fact, they're often rivals with each other.

LEMON: They're splinter hate groups.

DAVIS: Exactly.

LEMON: So -- but listen, why did they give you these souvenirs? And you have them, let's see.

DAVIS: Because they no longer have use for them. This is the robe of one -- of a former Grand Dragon for the State of Maryland. You know, green is the color Grand Dragon level. And this guy, he went to prison for conspiring to bomb a synagogue...

LEMON: Quickly, Daryl. I don't have a lot of time.

DAVIS: ... in Baltimore. And then later went to prison for conspiring to kill two black men with a shotgun. His day job was Baltimore City police officer as Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan.

LEMON: Do you fear for your safety? I mean you meet with these people.

DAVIS: No. Not really.

LEMON: Why not?

DAVIS: Because, you know, I go in there with a certain degree of knowledge. When you know as much about the Klan, if not more than they know about themselves, there is some degree of respect that they have to give you.

LEMON: All right, that is going to have to be the last word. Thank you very much. Mark Potok and Daryl Davis. When we come back, remembering Mario Cuomo, a tribute to three-time governor of New York from his very own son, our Chris Cuomo.

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LEMON: Today, hundreds of people paid tribute to the former governor of New York, Mario Cuomo. His funeral was held at the Church of Saint Ignatius Loyola on Manhattan's Upper East Side. The three-term governor of New York died Thursday at age 82, just a few hours after his son, Andrew Cuomo, was sworn in for his second term as New York's governor. In the crowd of mourners, Bill and Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and Nancy Pelosi. And of course, those who knew Mario Cuomo at best knew him as a family man. My CNN colleague and friend, New Day anchor, Chris Cuomo, paid tribute to his dad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIO CUOMO, FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: When it's over, I want people to say, "Now, there was an honest person."

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN NEW DAY ANCHOR: Pop's body is gone. I know because I counted out his pulse until his heart fell silent, 5.15 p.m., his two favorite numbers, 5 and 15. So now his baggy brown eyes, solid grip of soft thick fingers, oaken body, they're all gone. But what was most important about my father and to him has passed on.

CROWD: (Inaudible)

C. CUOMO: Passed on as in still exists. Just in a different way. His spirit passed on to his creator. The spirit of his message endures in us. Timeless and timely, a call to remember that if all do not share in America's success, there is no real success.

M. CUOMO: We can make it all the way with the whole family intact and we have more than once, wagon train after wagon train to new frontiers of education, housing, peace with the whole family aboard constantly reaching out to extend and enlarge that family, all those struggling to find some small share of America.

C. CUOMO: Our interconnectedness, our diversity as America's true strength. The value found in immigrants like our family, desperate to work, to be part of the dream.

M. CUOMO: Thank you very much.

C. CUOMO: Two speeches in eight weeks would define his political life for many of you. The keynote in 1984.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ronald Reagan rose into the 80s on a political white horse (ph).

C. CUOMO: When he took on Ronald Reagan's shining city.

M. CUOMO: There are people who sleep in the city's streets, in the gutter, where the glitter doesn't show.

C. CUOMO: And his talk at Notre Dame where he took on the his church's notion of a catholic politician. M. CUOMO: We know that the price of seeking to force our belief on others is that they might someday force their belief on us. I protect my right to be a catholic by preserving your right to be anything else you choose.

C. CUOMO: A man liked a challenge. Both relied on his core belief, we are here to help as many as we can in the best way we can and that means protecting freedom, especially freedom from oppression. You will hear him called, Hamlet on the Hudson, question it. It is a media phrase more than a matter of fact. Pop did not think he should run for president.

M. CUOMO: It has the nothing to do with my chances. It has everything to do with my job as governor and I don't see that I can do both. Therefore, I will not pursue the presidency.

C. CUOMO: Many could not or would not accept that and tried publicly and privately to push him to do otherwise. For better or worse, that's what separated my father from other politicians. He, in fact, did not vacillate. And until the day he died, I never heard him regret the decision. Period. But that is merely politics which can't be forgotten quickly enough. What really matters has certainly been passed on to me and my siblings and our kids. And that was pop's love, like a big bear hug on your heart kind of love, is unique sense of humor that could be a weapon and a salve.

M. CUOMO: Christopher, you have, let me tell you this, what you have found so many unusual ways to keep (ph) new expenses on this family. You really have. I mean -- and you have done it not after, you know, sweating effort, you have done it naturally.

C. CUOMO: who to be, How to be. From the simple, a handshake is firm. A tie is tied in a Windsor knot. A man shines his own shoes and does so often. He carries a hanky one for others and one for himself. He wears a hat, and not a cap, unless it's a cheese cut. He always has cash and does not go Dutch. Pass first. Shoot second. Play hard. And then, play harder. From that to the sublime, all that matters in life is devotion to something bigger than yourself, family, the less fortunate. Take up for them, always. His passion for purpose, love recklessly, fight the good fight fiercely, outwork everyone.

M. CUOMO: One of the simple things I wanted to achieve. I want to be governor. I want to be the hardest working there ever was.

C. CUOMO: Compete hard or not at all.

M. CUOMO: So far we have not lost all year.

C. CUOMO: And never as a function of the chance of success.

M. CUOMO: Of course, it's our first game.

C. CUOMO: And for all the requirements on an individual the most important was a command for the collective, collaborate in making this world a better place. M. CUOMO: What is our mission in this place? Your job is to make it as good as you can make it. That's all there its. There is no other significance.

C. CUOMO: None of that could ever be buried. Living on in the hearts and minds and actions of those who bear his name, who heeded his call to action then and now, that all will pass on. The man himself is gone. The father I went to in times of distress is not there. The truth hurts, pop would say, and this truth hurts worse than I imagined. But I also know what pop would tell me to do, wipe my face, let my kids see that I love them, be there for my family, and do the right thing. And I will, pop. Just like you.

M. CUOMO: Just keep going forward and believing ever more deeply that it's right to give to people and to the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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