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French Terror Suspect Manhunt; Cartoonists Speaking Out

Aired January 08, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And this is our special live coverage here of what's happening in Paris right now. We're following this breaking news. We now know nine people are in police custody in connection to the slaughter of a dozen journalists, cartoonists and police at the offices of the French satirical magazine "Charlie Hebdo."

As for these two gunmen, they are still at large. Heavily armed police have been massing on this country road leading to the village of Longpont about 65 miles northeast of Paris and another rural location, Corsi (ph). The belief now is that they are closing in on these suspects a day after this mass killing in downtown Paris.

And we also now know who they are looking for. Take a look at these photos. These are brothers, Said and Cherif Kouachi, both in their early 30s, police identifying them thanks to this, this I.D. card left behind by one of the suspects in their abandoned getaway car.

And in this frenzied search to find them, a gas station reportedly was held up north of Paris. The gas station attendant there says he's sure it was the brothers who robbed him at gunpoint before speeding away.

Let me take you live to the scene of one of those raids north of Paris.

CNN's Atika Shubert.

And, Atika, you were talking before about now how police are really amassed in this forest, combing through this forest. Tell me what's led them there.

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

Well, what led them there was this gas station early this morning at 10:30, where the attendant says he saw the two suspects apparently armed and they stole fuel, food and then quickly sped away.

Now, apparently, that gas station attendant called the police and that's where the tipoff came earlier today. Now, the police have not confirmed any of these details, but this is what we understand from local media reports. And, of course, what we're also seeing is that incredible police presence. You can see behind me there the flashing light of the police van. And

we're still seeing police move into the area. In fact, just now, we saw emergency medical teams going in as well. So we are seeing not only that, but house-to-house searches earlier today in the village of Longpont.

And just to give you a sense, this is a very rural area, farmhouses, open fields. And next door to that is a massive forest, thousands of acres big, and that's going to make it very difficult for searching for those two suspects there. Earlier in the day, we saw helicopters. We have not seen those helicopters tonight with any spotlights. But the police presence as far as we know is undiminished, Brooke.

BALDWIN: What about, Atika, these nine other suspects who at my latest check police haven't named, but these nine people who are in custody. Do we have any idea their relationship to these two gunmen?

SHUBERT: We don't know yet. We do that two of the arrests were in a town near the city of Reims, where we were earlier this morning.

And that's where they conducted a raid overnight into an apartment that we understand was where Said Kouachi was living. Now, the two that were arrested in a nearby town, we also think was an 18-year-old, Hamyd Mourad, and he actually turned himself in to police when he saw his name up on social media.

And some claiming to be his classmates have said he was actually in school at the time. We don't know the 18-year-old's connection exactly to the other two suspects. What we're trying to see now is perhaps a picture of those who perhaps know the suspects in some way being called in and interrogated by police and trying to figure out what they were doing in the days before the attack, trying to figure out perhaps also if they are trying to talk to any friends in their plans to get away.

BALDWIN: Atika Shubert, thank you very much on the manhunt angle.

But who are these two brothers? What do we know about these siblings and their suspected ties to terrorism? We know they are both French citizens. They were already on police radar, and one at one point in time had spent time behind bars for links to terrorism.

Let me bring in our CNN senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson. He's got more on the brothers' backgrounds. Take a look.

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NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Cherif Kouachi is 32, a French citizen with a criminal past. In 2008, he was sentenced to three years in prison for being part of a jihadist recruitment ring in Paris that sent fighters to join the conflict in Iraq.

He and another men were about to set off for Syria. From there, they planned to reach Iraq, where war was raging, but he was arrested in 2005. At the time, Cherif Kouachi's lawyer said his client was more of a pot smoker from the projects than an Islamist. The month after his arrest, Vincent Ollivier told the French newspaper "Liberation" -- quote -- "He smokes, drinks, doesn't sport a beard and has a girlfriend before marriage."

At trial, however, a different portrait of a young man coming under the influence of a radical Muslim preacher at a mosque in Paris. According to the French newspaper "Le Monde," his basic training for jihad to Iraq involved jogging in the park and learning the ins and outs of a Kalashnikov rifle from a man he met at the mosque.

At trial, he reportedly told the court he was motivated by U.S. troops' abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, where U.S. soldiers posed for photos with detainees in uncompromising positions. Cherif Kouachi was convicted and sentenced in 2008, but Bloomberg TV reported he didn't actually go to prison after the trial.

Half of his three-year sentence was suspended, the rest spent in pretrial detention. Two years later, 2010, he was charged in connection with a foiled plot to break an Algerian Islamist out of prison, a man who bombed a Paris commuter rail station in 1995, but prosecutors later dropped the charges, reported "Le Monde."

Cherif's older brother is Said, 34, also a French citizen. According to CNN affiliate BFMTV, he left an I.D. document at the scene. Like Cherif, he was known to police. In 2005, the "Liberation" newspaper reported the brothers were both staying in Paris with a French man who converted to Islam and, in 2010, Said's name came up during the investigation into the prison break plot, but according to "Le Monde," there wasn't enough evidence to keep investigating him.

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BALDWIN: All right. Nic, let me bring you in, because you outline in your piece how they were definitely -- police were familiar with them and specifically the younger brother Cherif. He was known to security services but he was not considered they call them tier one suspects. Do you think everything you know about these brothers that authorities underestimate their threats?

ROBERTSON: On the evidence today, you have to say yes and they would have to say yes, too, if they gave a frank analysis, unless somehow they were scrutinizing them and somehow the pair of them managed to slip through.

But that's not the message coming out. Look, they now have nine people in detention. These are people who potentially police believe have had contact with these men. But if you're the police and you're wanting to contain these two men on the run, one of the things you're certainly going to do is shut down places that they might run to, people that might be able to help them and people that would be close to them.

So, we should be thinking in this direction too.

BALDWIN: Presumably, they are doing that now with these nine suspects in custody and perhaps more in the coming hours. Nic Robertson, thank you so much.

We're talking so much, of course, about what happened in Paris, but here in the United States, counterterrorism officials are aggressively looking for possible connections to this Paris massacre. Federal agents are especially interested in about a dozen people who fought in Syria, but are now back in the states.

CNN's justice correspondent Pamela Brown has been working her sources and she joins me from Washington.

And so, Pam, do U.S. officials have any reason to think the terror suspects in France had any kind of contacts here in the U.S.?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: I'm being told not yet, Brooke, but that evaluation process is ongoing and you really hit the nail on the head. That's what they want to try to figure out. Is there any connection there?

Could what happened in Paris impact any of these high-level targets in the U.S., these tier one suspects? We know right now, Brooke, the FBI, DHS and intelligence agencies in the U.S. are scrubbing their databases and they're evaluating these high-priority targets, searching for any connection between the attackers and Americans, any sort of secondary or tertiary connections between them.

So the tier one targets, they include Americans who are believed to have returned to the U.S. after fighting in Syria. Sources are telling us that out of the dozens of Americans who have returned from Syria, there's a percentage of those who are believed to have actually fought alongside terrorists over there.

So, intelligence, law enforcement officials are evaluating what kind of impact these individuals may be under after what happened in Paris, whether they should take any action against these targets by contacting them directly. Of course, that's a move that would disrupt intelligence gathering, but potentially thwart an imminent attack on U.S. soil -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: You talk about these tier one suspects here in the States. I'm wondering if federal authorities are able to surveil each and every one of them.

BROWN: Well, that's the big question. So, it's really on a case-by- case basis.

I have been talking to law enforcement sources today and they say, look, if there's someone on our radar that we have reason to believe, you know, that they want to cause harm here in the U.S., they're going to be under constant 24/7 surveillance.

But the bottom line is, we just simply don't have the resources to surveil every single person that we suspect could pose a threat and also there's legal perimeters. You have to have a probable cause to have that level of surveillance.

BALDWIN: Right.

BROWN: So, in a lot of times, Brooke, law enforcement relies on source cover, sources that they developed who has an in with that high-level target that can kind of report back to them and let them know what's going on.

BALDWIN: Pamela Brown, appreciate it.

BROWN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, this attack in Paris definitely wasn't the work of a lone wolf. It was what my next guest is calling a wolf pack. What does he mean by that? We will have him explain.

And the French admit these brothers were under surveillance, as you heard from Nic Robertson's piece. How did they keep these plans to murder these cartoonists, these police officers, how did they keep this secret? Plus, a famous cartoonist pens a response cartoon to this attack just for us here at CNN and he will show it to me live on this show.

You're watching CNN's special breaking coverage of the manhunt for terrorists.

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BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

I can tell you right now French police are searching for these two brothers in connection with this massacre at a satirical magazine in Paris. According to reports, they robbed a gas station just a short time ago.

And in this area northeast of Paris, the gas station attendant told police that these armed men , they threatened him, stole gas and stole food before they drove away. And just talking to one of our correspondents a moment ago, she said police now are honing in what she is calling the epicenter of this search looking through this forest which is near some of these rural areas where they are searching.

Let me bring in global affairs analyst Bobby Ghosh, managing editor of Quartz, who has just been sort of phenomenal on all of this.

We wanted to have you back. But, first, one of your points and just listening to all these different pieces of this puzzle and then trying to find these two terrorists, your point about the bond of brothers is a strong one. That may help them or hurt them, Bobby Ghosh.

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: If you are talking about a -- for a long time now, we have been talking about the lone wolf. Right? We have been talking about the one guy who snaps or who plots something from the comfort of his bedroom and then with no consultation with anybody physically, maybe some online, goes and executes a terror plot.

This is an instance where there were certainly two, possibly more than two. We're talking about a wolf pack, rather than a lone wolf.

BALDWIN: OK.

GHOSH: Wolf packs are more dangerous if they succeed, if they bring their plot to conclusion, if there are two guns, instead of one, potentially two suicide bombers instead of one, three or four. Then you have the impact, the damage they can do is much greater.

That said, the more human beings there are involved in a plot, the more the room for human error. If you have multiple people, somebody can -- a group can be infiltrated. An individual can't. A group -- one person in a group can change their mind and develop cold feet, betray the cause, give up the plot and go and tell the police.

If you have multiple people involved, somebody can be indiscrete with the phone or by e-mail or say something and the plot can be exposed in that way. Groups are more of a little more vulnerable. That said, if you have brothers, as we did with the Tsarnaevs in Boston and here, brothers are very different.

(CROSSTALK)

GHOSH: If they live in the same house, they can communicate directly. They're not using electronics. And, therefore, they're less vulnerable.

The tendency to betray is much lower with brothers if they are close.

BALDWIN: What about -- so we talked about these three people. We know they are looking for these two, the brothers, according to police. This 18-year-old, this third individual, perhaps not believed to be the gunman, but this third party to this whole thing in police custody. What do you think he's doing right now?

GHOSH: Well, if he's indeed guilty, there are some reports that say he has an alibi, that he was in school and there are other people in the class who can vouch for him.

If that turns out to be true, then this is all a red herring. If it turns out that he was indeed part of the original plot that the French authorities claim, then presumably as we speak now they're speaking to him and pumping him for as much information as possible. If -- it's a big if -- he was part of a plot, then this kind of makes the case that he's the one non-brother and he turns himself in.

It would have been a lot better if he had turned himself in before this happened, but at least at this point he can deliver information that, if it's the right kind of information, the police can find the two brothers and hopefully bring this thing to a conclusion without more violence. We will have to see.

BALDWIN: Speaking of violence, I'm listening to you and I can't help again be reminded of what happened in Boston. They were brothers, they carjacked, there was gas station involved there, ultimately ended very different, but similarities on the surface. Ended up in that horrible violent shoot-out involving that boat in Watertown. And you were telling me -- we were still talking when we finished TV yesterday about this is one of your biggest fear, that this could end -- here they are -- who knows where they are right now, police honing in on this forest. But it could end in bloodshed again.

GHOSH: Alas, yes, it could be. If there are still -- there are a number of ifs. If we find where they are, if they are together, if they have the weapons that they used to carry out this plot, if they have the ammunition and if they have more under their sleeves, literally, then, yes, this could be horrible. This could end in a blaze of gunfire.

We are all hoping, as I'm sure are the French authorities, that that doesn't happen and that they come quietly.

BALDWIN: Who are investigators talking to right now? We know nine people are in custody?

GHOSH: And I'm sure they're talking -- if they know the identities of these people, they are talking to their all friends and they are talking to people in their circle, they are talking to where they worked and where they hung out, the cafes they went to, if they went to a mosque regularly, people who went to that mosque, the imam.

They are talking to everybody they possibly can, as you would in a situation like this.

BALDWIN: What's your read on -- we talked so much. We looked at the video from the shooting yesterday and the marksmanship, the almost sense of control they had.

One of the gunmen who paused to grab the sneaker before getting in the getaway car. Flash forward to us now knowing police have the getaway car and, according to police, if that I.D. in fact belongs to these two masked men, they left a piece of identification in the car.

GHOSH: It's my point. Humans will -- if there are humans, there will be human error. And if there are a large number of humans in a group, the opportunities and chances for human error are that much greater.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: OK. Bobby Ghosh, thank you very much.

GHOSH: Any time.

BALDWIN: Next, this attack is definitely an emotional blow to cartoonists all around the world. The man who draws "Mallard Fillmore" joins me next with special cartoon he drew for CNN in response.

Plus, when the shots rang out in Paris, one man rushed to a rooftop and started filming these terrifying images. What he saw when he walked back into the "Charlie Hebdo" offices -- that is coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: The pen is mightier than the sword.

Cartoonists now arming themselves against the grave attacks that claimed the lives of the fallen satirists in Paris. Illustrations flooding newspapers and blogs and social media worldwide, taking direct aim at the terrorists whose goal was to silence them, cartoonists like Ruben Oppenheimer evoking the horror of 9/11, as you see here the two pencils and the plane.

And Charlie Brown in mourning, the character who inspired the name of the French magazine "Charlie Hebdo" cast in a new light with the words "Je suis Charlie," "I am Charlie" added on that familiar scene by blogger Magnus Shaw.

And one popular American cartoonist feels especially shaken, saying he has much in common with the marked cartoonist. That is because Bruce Tinsley, the man behind the comic "Mallard Fillmore," has illustrated many, many scenes like this one. The captions above Mallard read, "All of those folks on the lookout for violence against Muslims should check out how Muslims are treating each other these days," just one of his religiously themed cartoons that has brought blowback from readers.

So, Bruce joins me now.

Welcome.

BRUCE TINSLEY, CARTOONIST: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let me just begin with your cartoon, Bruce, that you drew especially for us, your reaction to these events. We will put it on the screen. And tell me about it.

TINSLEY: Well, before I do, I would like to say that my heart goes out and my prayers go out to the families of the policemen, cartoonists and other journalists at "Charlie Hebdo." I can't imagine what they're going through right now.

But when I sat down at my drawing board last night, I was looking at my computer, all of the "I am Charlie" protests, the vigils all around the world, and that's kind of where the cartoon came from, that and when I read that the editor had said I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

And I thought to myself, you know, I'm seeing all of these people come together in a way that they haven't before because of what happened all around the world. I was seeing them in London, cities everywhere, and thinking, man, if there's anything to take away from this, it's that the people who are resisting the kind of terror, the kind of horrible things that we have seen around the globe lately are winning.

BALDWIN: And so your cartoon.

TINSLEY: And the cartoon has Mallard holding up the newspaper, a generic paper, with the "Je suis Charlie" on it, "I am Charlie," to represent not him saying that he's Charlie, as much as to say, look at this. This is happening everywhere.

And then the pen that he's holding up harks back to the expression the pen is mightier than the sword. My son reminded me today that he's seen a whole lot of cartoons like that today, and I'm thinking, yes, you get that a lot, but in this case, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: That's the thing. It's this momentum, right, Bruce? It's this momentum from cartoonists such as yourself to the people we have seen, the tens of thousands gathering in France holding up their pens, symbols, of course, of the freedom, here you go, of speech and of expression.

Part of the big conversation has been, did "Charlie Hebdo" though -- should these cartoonists have drawn the Prophet Mohammed, which is absolutely blasphemous in this religion? You say they shouldn't have. Tell me why.

TINSLEY: Well, it's a little more complicated than that.

BALDWIN: Sure.

TINSLEY: I say I wouldn't have. The reason I wouldn't have goes to my own Christian faith.

I feel that I have attacked terrorists, attacked terror in general and ISIS and other groups specifically and al Qaeda and all of their acts for years. But I personally wouldn't make the decision to just do something that only is offensive to another person's religion, because it would reflect on my religion. Oh, he's of a religion that thinks it's OK just to do a gratuitously offensive attack.

That having been said, though, I don't like some of the reporting that I see that essentially is almost saying they brought this on themselves. I think every individual has the freedom and should have to express himself, even if it's a way I wouldn't, and certainly nothing justifies what happened and there's no way in which they deserved this.

BALDWIN: No. No.

Bruce Tinsley, I appreciate the time and the cartoon as well. Thank you so much.

TINSLEY: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Somber moment just a short time ago in Paris. We saw the top of the last hour something you don't often see, piece by piece, the Eiffel Tower going dark in honor of the victims of this massacre in Paris.

We're live in Paris with more on how the city is reacting.

Plus, one expert says attacks like these could mean a battle is brewing between terror groups, like ISIS, like al Qaeda. Hear those reasons ahead.

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