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Terror in France

Aired January 09, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin here in New York, my colleague Chris Cuomo there in Paris. You're watching our breaking news coverage of this -- terrorist attacks in France.

Want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world.

Here's what we know at this point in time. Two separate hostage standoffs in and around the capital city are now over. At least three of these terrorists, along with four hostages, are dead. One suspect, the woman here, is believed to be on the run.

Let me begin with this first siege ended in this back-and-forth gunfire. You see smoke as a result of all of this. This happened in a pretty placid place in Paris in a small village near the airport, Charles de Gaulle Airport. It was inside of this printing factory that these two brothers, the Kouachi brothers, who killed those 12 journalists, members of law enforcement Wednesday morning in the "Charlie Hebdo" magazine offices, they were holed up in this location, in addition to this one other individual.

Now, crews were there. They heard gunfire, the apparent bang of flash grenades and siege ended when gunmen came out firing at police. This is according to our French affiliate there, BFM. They were then killed by law enforcement on the scene. That one individual who was in the printing factory, not specifically clear if that was a hostage, they were aware of that individual, or that person was hiding.

But that person is OK. He or she walked away unharmed. At the same point in time, a larger hostage standoff in Paris undertaken by two other people who were part apparently of the same jihadist group as these brothers. This man and the woman, they live together, and today they held up this grocery store, taking several hostages.

And we have images now showing the end of that siege and all these people, of course, rushing out of this small, one-way-in, one-way-out sort of grocery store here, and we're now hearing from the president of France, Francois Hollande, that four of them were killed.

Also killed in that hostage siege, the hostage taker, the man we have been showing you on the far right of your screen, again, his accomplice, the woman, on the run, both suspected of killing a Parisian policewoman yesterday morning. A lot of different moving parts here. Chris Cuomo is there on the

scene, because we can't get forget, too far away from what started all this, of course, at the memorial, people milling about just after 9:00 at night your time there in Paris.

Chris, just a somber scene where you are and just an unbelievable course of events today.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: It has been unimaginable, what has happened in just the course of 24 hours.

We have the memorial here by the offices of "Charlie Hebdo," the satirical magazine where this all started with the horrible massacre of 12 people, 11 others injured, many seriously. And there's a memorial here, people now starting to gather again. It grows by the hour, people trying to keep in their hearts and their minds just how this all started and what was taken and how senseless it is.

It's very complex. There are many setbacks in this situation, for French society and for their fight against terrorism and just for the sense of community. And yet as we see in the Arc de Triomphe right now, the words on top translated to "Paris is Charlie," that they are all "Charlie Hebdo," that there's a sense of unity coming out of this, but it was very hard-fought because of what happened today in two separate locations.

Let's go to Isa Soares.

The French president, Isa, you are outside of the kosher market where the hostages were held and many were released. Some did not make it out. Others were injured. So were some of the SWAT team members that perpetrated the assault there to try to free them.

The French president, Isa, said that this was an anti-Semitic attack. Now, of course it's a kosher market. But we're also told that many Muslims shop there as well to fill their own specific religious dietary needs. But what have you heard there about how this is perceived and whether or not it was a specific targeting attack of Jews?

ISA SOARES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Chris.

Yes, people I have been speaking to, they're not really saying it was specifically attacking Jews. This is an area, not particularly a Jewish area in the east of Paris. This is a middle-class area. It's lots of different stores, not just Jewish stores, like you were saying, but Muslim stores as well.

We have got a variety of shops here. And people would not expect to see much police, much activity in this area. It's a very ordinary, if I could put it that way, a very ordinary part of the east of Paris -- or Paris really.

And so it came as a surprise to many here today what we saw unfolding throughout the day. You and I were standing next to each other really and we saw there was a city on edge and really a city on alert. (CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Isa, I have to jump in. I'm sorry. The French prime minister is on. He's being interviewed right now.

Let's listen into that, again, the French prime minister on television now.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

MANUEL VALLS, FRENCH PRIME MINISTER (through translator): ... and to be aware that we are at war against terrorism in France and abroad. We need unity. We need to unite. We need to have the spirit, responsibility.

QUESTION (through translator): Was that a failure, the fact that three terrorists were killed?

VALLS (through translator): The two first ones got out with the will to attack the police, to kill them. What else could we have done but to do than the special police forces did?

And at Porte de Vincennes, I am convinced because there are people being detained, people close to them, and the inquiry with the anti- terrorist authority must demonstrate the depth of these links between these individuals, these terrorists, these acts that they committed to see if there are other people, other accomplices.

We must not just only not drop our guards, but together with the intelligence services, we must be particularly mobilized, ninety police officers (INAUDIBLE) soldiers are mobilized. We have more means available in the days -- in the coming days, more soldiers this weekend, and 700 at the beginning of the week, because we need to protect places of worship, schools.

We need this police presence and soldiers. This is a long-term job because this threat that we have already known for at least three years following the attacks in Toulouse, which was an attack of conscience -- where people are trained with terror in Syria and Iraq. It is French. They are French. And they live amongst us and they can attack ourselves, attack what is dearest to us. This requires great mobilization in order to face up these terrorists acts.

QUESTION (through translator): Are these means going to be reinforced? Can you analyze the failures, because this is a failure? Even if we can say we can't foresee everything, we're faced with a failure. There is a failure clearly when there are 17 deaths.

VALLS (through translator): There were failures, but there are hundreds of people that go to Syria and Iraq who are trained, others who come back. There are people who are detained. There are the judicial authorities, individuals who are imprisoned today.

We have laws that have been passed, one a few weeks ago with a large majority, virtually unanimously, to increase our arsenal against terrorism. But that's not sufficient, apparently. All countries, even legal systems that are different, where we can work together in cooperation, and countries such as Spain, Great Britain, Belgium with the terrible attacks, including the Jewish museum in Brussels, United States, Canada and others, all are concerned.

And, of course, there are failures in our democratic systems. We have to react, because it would be absurd not to react. At the same time, we must not rush. Interior Ministry has asked for (INAUDIBLE) to bring together the different leaders, political formations together, respecting the rule of law, but to be absolutely firm, as well as implacable.

But as the Ministry of Interior or as the prime minister, we are facing a major challenge in an external and internal enemy. This is not a fight between civilizations. Together with (INAUDIBLE) we welcome, we know these types of attacks. We have managed to stop and foil a number of attacks over the years.

CUOMO: The French prime minister there giving voice to what's become painfully obvious to the French population, that the war against terror is not just being fought externally, but internally.

This is the worst kind of wakeup call, to have the series of events that have come about in the last few days, starting here at the offices of the French satirical magazine "Charlie Hebdo" and culminating in these joint standoffs today that ended without -- with injuries not just to the police who went into free hostages, but to the hostages themselves, as well as three terrorists.

These situations are over, but really the dialogue is just beginning. That's why the French foreign minister and the president have taken to the airwaves and the conversations are going on in the streets themselves.

Let's go to Isa Soares. She's outside the kosher market where there were one of the standoffs.

I'm sorry, Isa, I had to cut you off like that. Our coms aren't clear enough for us to hear each other, but I had to get to the French prime minister.

I wanted to pick up with a point that you were making there. You know, as you're aware, the terrorists inside that kosher market, where a lot of Muslims also shop, but they do believe he picked it because it was a kosher market, he called into a journalists who then reported on our affiliate that he was connected to the brothers. He was not involved with "Charlie Hebdo." His part of the mission was to attack police separately, which he did, killing one, a female police officer who was unarmed.

He also said that he was doing it for ISIS. It's hard to make sense of that because the brothers identify themselves with AQAP, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, and the idea of an ISIS-AQAP joint venture is unfathomable to any expert that we have asked about it. What do you make of that?

(CROSSTALK) SOARES: Yes, absolutely. I think that's why it raises so many questions.

We have been discussing in the last few -- in the last 24 hours whether there's any sort of relation between the brothers and indeed Amedy Coulibaly. And the fact he said to our affiliate, affiliate BFMTV, that he was with ISIS raised so many eyebrows.

But I want to go that point that you were saying that -- at the kosher store here, not only did you have a lot of the Jewish community, but a lot of the Muslim community and people here saying it's not an attack necessarily on Jews, but really on Parisians as a whole.

But I want to point something out to you, Chris, and to our viewers. I was here late last year during a time when Paris, we saw a rise of anti-Semitic protests and activity. I was here reporting on that. And you -- we saw synagogues really being targeted, shops being looted.

And I had the opportunity to speak to the head of the community here, the Jewish community. He told me -- and I remember writing this down, because I have got my notepad -- he said there was a 40 percent increase in violence against the community in the first part of last year. He said the levels of migration from France to Israel are at the lowest since the founding of Israel.

That's not to say that we know necessarily why he targeted this. But, of course, I'm sure French experts and police will be investigating that closely. But, of course, it does raise many eyebrows. The fact that he came in and he basically said to them, you know who I am, and inside were so many people, a lot of women. We have heard reports up to six people. We cannot independently confirm that.

Among those six, Chris, is one toddler. Now, he came and he wasn't alone. He came in with his accomplice who was his girlfriend. She is also being blamed, accused of killing the Parisian policewoman. Now, they came in and as that was -- as the police started targeting the area -- and this is a very different hostage situation from the one we saw about 35 miles or so away, because if I just get the cameraman to look over my -- it's about a couple hundred meters around that way.

But it's in the corner. It's so tight. So, it's much more difficult in terms of the police to go in and really take control of the situation. But that's what they did. But, at the moment, the woman in the midst of the confusion, the girlfriend, she is on the run at this hour -- Chris.

CUOMO: Well, Isa, to the extent that the female accomplice is still on the loose, she's so important to investigators, because she's the only surviving link to the plans that hatched all of this madness to begin with, making her that much more valuable to try and see how extensive this connection, what's being called a cell here, could be.

Thank you for the reporting from there. Check back in if you have anything. Let's get to Fred Pleitgen.

And, Fred, you are at the other area of the urgent standoff that's finally come to its conclusion. You are well aware of this reporting I referred to with Isa about this journalist that was able to make contact with all three terrorists and get explanations in their own words about why they were doing this and what their affiliations and their intentions were. What do you make of that now?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It certainly is remarkable and quite bizarre.

But it does seem as though these people also not only wanted to kill people, but they obviously also had a message that they wanted to get across. And one of those messages was that, yes, they were affiliated with terror organizations around the world.

One of the interesting things though I want to mention first is that with the siege when it ended here earlier today, it was really very much the opposite of what happened there in Paris. In Central Paris, it was a dense area. There were a lot more hostages. It was a lot smaller space that the police had to raid. Here, the police really had almost perfect conditions for conducting their siege here and then taking these terrorists out at the end of it.

They cordoned off the area. There really isn't very much around here. It was fairly easy for them to move any sort of civilians around the way. It was easy for them to isolate these two terrorists. Apparently, they had a hostage or they had someone in that building as well they didn't even know was a hostage.

That person wasn't with them the entire time. To get back to your question, though, absolutely. There was journalists from our affiliate BFM that apparently were able to contact the hostage takers as they were inside this building just only about 400 yards down the road. They simply called this printing office that these people had gone into and had hunkered down in.

And they picked up the phone. I just want to listen into what Cherif Kouachi had to say to this reporter. Now, we have to say we can't independently verify that this is actually him; we can't independently verify the authenticity of what you are about to hear, but we were able to obtain the sound bite from our affiliate BFM, whose journalists managed to contact the hostage takers. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CHERIF KOUACHI, TERRORIST KILLED IN FRANCE (through translator): We are just telling you that we are the defenders of Prophet Mohammed. I was sent, me, Cherif Kouachi, by al Qaeda in Yemen. I went there. And Sheik Anwar al-Awlaki financed my trip.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Now, there you have it. Apparently, afterwards, the journalist asked him, so when was this? And he says: This was quite a while ago, before Anwar al-Awlaki got killed, Allah rest him in peace.

And so there was a little bit more to that conversation. Again, that's the sound bite that we got from our affiliate BFM. But certainly of course that's something that is going to most probably be very valuable to anyone who is analyzing all this, not the least of which would be the investigators to see why these people did this, what their motivations were, what their message is, what they are trying to achieve with all this.

Of course, one of the things that terrorists usually try to achieve is as much publicity as possible. That's certainly something that they have got. The other thing of course that they would have tried to do is they would have tried to do is silence the publications that they take issue with like "Charlie Hebdo."

That's something that they certainly by no stretch of the imagination did they manage to do. But it's certainly -- that recording is going to be very, very important, I believe, as we move forward and as investigators sniff into and try to find out what is behind all this and what other networks might be behind this and what sort of international contacts these people might have had.

CUOMO: Right. Of course, Fred, it's valuable, if only because they are no longer alive to give any other statements.

But that's just the obvious. There are a lot of questions that are raised as well. They forced the hand of authorities today. They rushed them guns blazing. And that's what ended their lives. They did tell authorities they were willing to die as martyrs.

I don't know if they qualify as that. But they certainly died by their own instigation. And also if this was some years ago, why did they wait so long to hatch this plot? And if it was so well-thought- out at such a high levels of AQAP, why did they have no exit? Why was there such haphazard just running around mindless, out of necessity, and not planning?

And, of course, then the biggest question will be, what's the propaganda effect of this, this taking these innocent lives and running around foolishly, being tracked down and then dying because of their own efforts to take on the police?

It's very confusing. Experts will have to dissect it, to be sure. They are here no more, Fred Pleitgen, to tell their own story. We will check back in with you. You let us know what you hear from there. We will checking in with Isa Soares as well -- but, Brooke, back to you in New York.

BALDWIN: Yes. You bring up all these different big-picture questions and I think to your point a moment ago, it's so, so crucial that police can find this fourth individual, this woman, because she at the moment would be the only survivor who would be able to chip away at some of the answers to those bigger questions that we all have. This entire hunt for these French terrorists, these two sets of

hostage takers, took just about 48 hours. But before they zeroed in on the brothers, the Kouachi brothers, and this third attacker accused of killing this police officer in Paris, police swarmed multiple villages in and around the capital city to try to find them.

Let's show you a map. OK? Let's bring in Tom Foreman. He's in Washington with just a closer look at how they managed to track down these different individuals -- Tom.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Brooke.

The truth is if you look at this map, what you see are three key tactical questions that have to be answered. First is, how did the Kouachi brothers wind up where they were today? Remember, the attack initially took place in Paris. They were believed to be surrounded in the woods way up here some 45 miles away from Paris. Authorities were sure they had them there.

And somehow they slipped out again, got into a car and started heading not just away, but, importantly, back toward Paris, where nobody wanted them to get. Then there was some sort of precipitating event. We're not entirely sure what that was, but they wound up at this print shop in this sort of industrial complex here, with a neighborhood off to one side, the businesses over here.

But they wind up in this one small print shop where it was ultimately going to all come to an end. That's one storyline happening today as you look at the map. The second one was about this other couple that we have been talking about here, the ones who were believed to be responsible for killing that police officer.

This man and this woman are now believed to have emerged from somewhere, we don't know where, and to have charged into this place not terribly far, the supermarket, not terribly far from the offices of "Charlie Hebdo." The shooting of the police officer took place in southern Paris, but, nonetheless, suddenly they are back in the equation. There they have hostages.

Two situations developing at once, and then the big explosive moment, where both places seemed to come apart at almost the same time with these attacks. The first question, how did the Kouachi brothers get to where they were? Second question, where was this man and his accomplice, this woman, where were they before they showed up in the supermarket?

And the third question, as we look at where we stand now, with three of them dead, is, where is she? And is anybody else out there still trying to help her, Brooke?

BALDWIN: Tom Foreman, thank you so much. All excellent questions. We will speak with someone very familiar with hostage negotiations, how these investigators are trying to seek out this fourth person, this woman, and try to capture her alive to start to answer some of those questions. And also the radicalization process of the Kouachi brothers and perhaps this greater cell in France and beyond, two guests coming up. Lots more questions. Stay with me, special live coverage here after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: Breaking news here on CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Local lawmakers say that the Kouachi brothers wanted to die as martyrs and they reportedly came out of this printing factory where they holed themselves up earlier today near the airport in Paris firing against police, triggering this hail of bullets that ultimately ended their lives.

But if they were eager to die, then why did they go on the run?

Let me bring in Byron Sage, who once led hostage negotiations for the FBI, and also with me, CNN national security analyst Peter Bergen.

So, gentlemen, welcome.

And, Byron, just first to you. If you're -- put yourselves in the shoes of these SWAT teams and hostage negotiators at these two sort of separate locations in Paris today, especially with these Kouachi brothers. Reportedly, they said they were willing to die as martyrs. How does that change your negotiation tactics knowing that?

BYRON SAGE, FORMER FBI HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: When you face an individual that's absolutely committed to a terminal act like that and states it clearly, then the negotiators' primary role is just to buy as much time as possible to allow the tactical units to amass the necessary resources and develop a good plan.

You don't give up on the concept of trying to convince them to give up and fight another day. But they are pretty much dictating their own demise.

BALDWIN: You have this hostage siege happening in one part of Paris, Byron, just staying with you, and then the other part of Paris, you have these other two, and this female, according to reports, managed to escape as a lot of hostages were running for their lives, quite literally. A, how does that happen when you have this area surrounded? And, B, what are investigators, what are law enforcement doing right now to try to find her alive?

SAGE: These situations are not like you see on TV. They are dynamic. There's a lot of chaos involved.

And, oftentimes, the tactical units that are responsible for securing the perimeter may not be able to account for everybody when they come running out en masse. Obviously, with terror in their minds, this young lady just kind of wove into that fabric and disappeared in the midst. The key thing to remember here is, we had two dynamic, different

situations. The first situation with the Kouachi brothers was actually not a hostage situation. They were not there trying to leverage anything. They were there kind of setting a stage for suicide by cop and capturing the world's attention, which they succeeded in doing.

The second one was more of a traditional hostage situation, because the terrorist was actually using the hostages as leverage, saying that these people are at risk until you give me what I want. What I want is the safe passage of his comrades.

So, it was more of a traditional-type situation, even though, in the long run, it appears that they did not -- they were disingenuous as far as type of negotiation effort. So, again, the negotiators' primary role was to work in the interest of the tactical teams to be able to get as much intel, to buy as much time, and to allow for an appropriate plan to be put in place.

BALDWIN: That's exactly right. And you see the pictures of them running out. Many of them survived. But, according to the president of France, four -- four were killed.