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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Latest on the Paris Terror Attack and Hostage Situations

Aired January 09, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: The brothers going in a massacre, taking lives of 12 people, 11 more hurt, some critically wounded. They would windup taking on the police officers, three different groups of officers on their way out, they would kill a police officers, a Muslim officer. They would take off in a car, they would be chased, they would windup abandoning the car, taking to woods on foot carrying weapons with them, eventually commandeering another car after making through it the night, and eventually get cornered there. A very different scenario that lead to the marketplace, Anderson

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: The marketplace where the gunmen who I believe who've been -- the man who shot a French policewoman Thursday morning. The marketplace taken over by that gunman whether or not he had accomplice in the marketplace unclear at this point as Chris said, reported based on sources, he has close the investigation. A number of a hostages said there was accomplish, a police union official had said that the female woman -- the female who's picture you're seeing on the screen, that she had actually been one of hostage takers as well. That she was actually able to escape with some of the hostages as they run out. We haven't been able to confirm that.

What we do know is that the hostage taker is dead after taking at least six people hostage. There had been fatality, we're told, among the hostages themselves. The exact number of that is unclear, it is just -- it's after 6:00 p.m. now in France. This has been a remarkable. The day began with a massacre on Wednesday. It has ended a simultaneous police assault on twin standoff some 28 miles a part.

CUOMO: Some new information on that industrial area. That assault there, we're hearing from our affiliate, BFM, French affiliate, that the man they had taken hostage had found a way to get away from the terrorists, had hidden in a box. And when that happened, the terrorist decided to come out guns blazing and attack authorities and they got taken out.

COOPER: Which that would -- that's interesting that's the first time we're hearing that. He would actually explain and it Tom Fuentes who first point at this out that were gun shots heard first before flash- bang grenades went off.

CUOMO: It didn't make sense to us because usually you initiate with a flash-bang. Apparently what we we're hearing were the terrorists coming out and taking on the authorities.

COOPER: Right. And Tom Fuentes, if you're still with us, you're the first one who actually pointed that out that the gunshots going off did sort of indicated, and again that's sort of also indicates why this operation took place first and why the operation on the supermarket ideally you would want them to be simultaneous. But it seems like if in fact this local report by French media is true. It seems like the terrorist themselves are the ones who initiated this operation's conclusion.

French law enforcement reacting to what the French hostage takers had done at the industrial park. And then had to then go into the supermarket, based on what had happened in the industrial part, Tom?

TOM FUENTES, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Right. And I was basing that on, you know, the hostage rescue teams from our allies all over Europe, including the French, the FBI's hostage rescue team, other tactical groups, have done a lot of training together. The commanders, the negotiators, the SWAT team leaders. So, a lot of the techniques that have been learned and refine over decades have lead to kind of a common practice here.

And that's why I said the beginning that when I heard that the gunfire preceded the flash-bangs, I thought that's not normal and also I didn't expect...

COOPER: Right, right.

FUENTES: ... authorities would initiate the rescue so soon. I thought they would give this as long as possible, maybe...

COOPER: Yeah.

FUENTES: ... go overnight until tomorrow so. That's why I speculated that.

COOPER: So, hey Tom, we're showing your picture on the screen. These are people being treated at the scene of the supermarket hostage taking. And I want to brink in our Jim Sciutto who is on the scene and has been now really since the beginning of all this, Jim. Where are you? What are you seeing?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they've allow us just in a last few minutes to move closer to the scene. You remember earlier the day they kept moving us back as it became more dangerous. But since the siege has ended, we're getting a closer view now and just a couple of point I might make. Clear differences between how this siege was resolved and the one northeast of Paris, one being in Paris it was gunfire, northeast of Paris it was gunfire, and then those flash-bang grenade, here the explosions certainly came first before those rounds of gunfire, an indication that they would have used those flash-bangs possibly as well because the explosions, I will say, having heard them and they've were very loud and they were on the air. Possible that they used explosives to break through the doors, and in fact, some of the images that we've seen as they assaulted the center showed red glass as they entered the building.

It's possible that they've used explosives as well and this is common with tactical units to break their way into there, to break down the door and gain entry. The other point I would want to make is that they were not actually simultaneous. There were a number of minutes between the operation that took place in northeast Paris and the one that took place here. And -- but that doesn't mean they're not connected. If those attackers there in Northeast Paris initiated contact, it is very possible that the tactical units here made a judgment that they would have to move in quickly here perhaps because the attacker here who had, you'll remember, demanded the freedom of those gunmen in northeastern Paris as one of his demands here, that he might get wind of it and might pose a danger, an additional danger to the hostages. That's one thing I would say.

But also, clearly the operation here was more difficult because of the circumstances. You had many more hostages here. Those hostages were under threat and based on what we saw from the scene, there were casualties earlier in the day as well as the raid unfolded because as we arrive here earlier in the day, a number of hours ago, we already saw those ambulances streaming away. I saw someone strapped to a stretcher and put into an ambulance. It's possible that the gunman hurt or injured or possibly killed people earlier in the day before the raid took place.

A much more complex situation here, and that's why sadly we didn't see as positive a result here because there are indications there were casualties, not only among the tactical units, but also among the hostages.

CUOMO: Jim, see what you can find out about who's being triaged right now. Exactly, how many of those hostages didn't wind up making it out? And we'll check back in with you.

Joining us now here, we have Janine di Giovanni. She's the Middle East editor for Newsweek magazine. And we also have from Austin, Texas, Byron Sage. He's a former FBI hostage negotiator who was the federal government's point man in the Branch Davidian standoff. Do you remember that in Waco, Texas obviously?

But Janine, you're here with us. So, we're looking at this now. We know that right now, assets of the French authorities have been dispatched to the neighborhood where the brothers and maybe this suspect of African descent knew each other or connected because what they're concerned about is a reflective violence after this. They're taking off the cause because of what happened to them at this cell, you know, they usually has more membership of it. What are the steps moving forward to seal this situation and protect against the next?

JANINE DI GIOVANNI, MIDDLE EAST EDITOR, NEWSWEEK: I think it's going to be a long term process but I think the first thing to do really is that with the death of the brothers who wanted to die, we knew they wanted to be murderers, we've lost in a sense, the most basic information, the information that we really do need about their links to the other terrorists or links to the other incidents, also their links to other European countries.

We heard earlier about the Finsbury Mosque which, of course, is and has always been a hotbed for radicalism in Britain. So, I think that we really need to establish where the cells are.

CUOMO: That's a live picture, by the way, just so you see what they've put on the Arc de Triomphe, "Paris Est Charlie." You know, Paris is Charlie. Obviously, this has been terrifying but also unifying for the French people. But please, continue, Janine. You're saying that...

DI GIOVANNI: No, this important because the solidarity that's really bound Paris for the past three days has been extraordinary.

There has been a collective sense of grief, of course, but there's also been a very strong sense that we're not afraid, we're not going to back down. And the incidents today which started of lunch time, which you went into great detail with, really showed the kind of tenacity and the strength of the (inaudible) people. They didn't panic. They didn't back down.

COOPER: No, and there has been this incredible solidarity.

DI GIOVANNI: Yes, extraordinary.

COOPER: People of all strives and all walks of life, yet there are very real concerns and questions about assimilation of immigrant groups moving forward, about the immigrant communities and how you deal with them and what happens now.

DI GIOVANNI: Absolutely. I mean, the first thing you have to remember as well is that we don't -- our borders are so easy to cross. I mean, to get to Belgium it's about as easy to go from New York to Connecticut.

So, there is a big concern about that but at the same time that will fuel the right wing who are ready (inaudible) more immigrants coming in, the Syrian war, the refugees. So we've got to be very careful in France. It's a very fragile time of reaction.

CUOMO: But that's immigration. Anderson had people over his shoulder before I joined him, who were in a very heated debate here and they were all obviously French locals to this neighborhood, and they were having to debate about how these immigrants who are now here, how they have been a disenfranchised and that...

DI GIOVANNI: Disenfranchised, it's true.

CUOMO: ... that these brothers were a function of that. That was the aspect of the argument...

DI GIOVANNI: Absolutely, absolutely.

CUOMO: ... that the state didn't embrace them, didn't give them what they needed.

DI GIOVANNI: It doesn't.

CUOMO: So they were preyed to radicalization.

DI GIOVANNI: Absolutely. What happens is that, in fact, they're not immigrants. They were born -- in fact, they're French.

CUOMO: Right.

DI GIOVANNI: And there are so many young Muslims like them who grow up in the suburbs outside of Paris which are very grim. Their opportunities are very, very bleak. It's -- I'm -- if people don't believe me, but it's very difficult for them to get apartments, jobs, education. To make it out of the world in which the brothers grew up in, you need to be highly motivated, highly driven. And...

CUOMO: Not to suggest that the reasonable alternative is terrorism.

DI GIOVANNI: Absolutely not. I'm not saying. But -- what I do think is that there must be a way for France to begin to assimilate the Muslim population which is by the way as, you know, the largest in Europe.

COOPER: Which is something obviously in the United State. There is much more assimilation and this American identity that immigrant groups traditionally have wanted to embrace.

I also want to bring in Byron Sage in Austin Texas, former FBI hostage negotiator. As Chris mentioned, he was a federal government point man in the Branch Davidian standoff and Waco. Also our global affairs analyst, Bobby Ghosh, one time Jihadist, Mubin Shaikh as well.

But for let's go to Austin Texas first, I'm curious what you saw as this operation unfolded, as the stand off came to a conclusion, as a former hostage negotiator, what do you make out and what are the questions you want answered about how all this went down?

BYRON SAGE, FORMER FBI HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: It appeared quite clearly frankly that they had two coordinated standoff locations, two crisis sites if you will. And there was a well-orchestrated plan that was circumvented by the two brothers when they initiated their action, then there have to be a contingency plan in the place where the second crisis site have to be addressed immediately because as you had mentioned earlier, there had been a primary demand of the safe release of those two brothers.

They took that off the table, therefore the negotiators were in a very difficult position. Their primary role then shifted to support the tactical teams which is a very viable purpose of the negotiation process as well.

COOPER: So essentially you're saying because, and for what we're hearing now, because these two terrorist suspects themselves basically started firing, because the hostage have been able to hide himself. And therefore police have to be involved, tactical units had to get involved in the industrial park, they then have to go in at the supermarket, they couldn't wait around because the supermarket -- the gunmen in the supermarket, the terror -- the suspects in the supermarket could've very well had a reaction to their operation going on elsewhere.

SAGE: Particularly, if the terrorist in the market was linked or had access to the media coverage, it could've prompt at a very negative response on his part. And the only way that you can protect the hostages is through that tactical intervention. Hopefully the negotiators were able to keep him on the phone. Obviously we don't know that yet. But the negotiators can play a very critical role by keeping the most threatening of the individuals on the phone at the time of the tactical insertion.

Hopefully that went to the ability of the French authorities to rescue safely as many hostages as they did.

COOPER: Bobby Ghosh, standing by managing editor of Quartz and he's also global affairs analyst for CNN. Bob, an extraordinary last several hours here that the world has been witnessing. I'm wondering what's stand out to you. And what questions do you want an answered in the next several hours from law enforcement.

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well the connection between the gunman in that Kosher supermarket and the two Kouachi brothers is the one that everybody will want to know about. There have been some reporting that one of the Kouachi brothers and the suspect in the supermarket, Amedy Coulibaly, were -- had previous association with each other. They were both on trial together in one particular case. Was this part of a coordinated plan or did Coulibaly simply respond to an unfolding situation without any previous planning.

There's also going to be questions about "Are there anymore?" We know now four suspects in two separate instances, is there a larger network at work. That is suddenly what many French people will be worried about and are concerned about, and surely the focus of the French authorities' investigations. And, of course, the fourth suspect, Hayat Boumeddiene, the woman who is still at large possibly armed...

COOPER: Right.

GHOSH: ... the dragnet now has to find her.

CUOMO: Bobby, let's pause there for one second. Let's put back up that photo we just saw. This is from the assault, the aftermath at the Kosher grocery store. I want to -- you just take a look at it. Look at the man in the middle. He seems to be carrying a baby. We had heard speculation that some of the hostages may have been children. We can't tell -- they don't seem to be injured but this is part of the people who were able to escape.

Again, we're going to hear information about the hostages who didn't make it out, who were injured making it out, or before the authorities were able to free them. But, there it is. I mean, that's one of the images that show the urgency of the situation.

And now, our other guest, Mubin Shaikh. We've been talking about the concern of French authorities right now about what is to come. They believe that what just happened to this grocery store, and in the killing of these two police officers in a separate event from the magazine, may have been done as a reaction to what was going on with these two brothers, and that maybe that will happen more. What can you tell us, Shaikh, as about how radicalization works and how this connection of friends from a neighborhood could work in terms of taking up one another's cause?