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Terror In Paris

Aired January 10, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, you're watching breaking news here on CNN. I'm Brianna Keilar in New York.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto in Paris.

By all appearances the "Charlie Hedbo" attack, the threat certainly still not over here. We have new information today about police warning about potential new threats, particularly against police officers. A security meeting taking place in Paris today among police, a warning going out to police that the possibility of terror cells, sleeper cells, activated in the last 24 hours.

Police advised as a precaution to keep their weapons close at all times as a result of that warning and also erase their social media presence. Take down their profiles on Facebook, Twitter, et cetera. Why? Because it is believed that is how some of these groups are identifying potential targets. That is one piece of news today.

Another piece of news today, French authorities establishing that the missing partner of the man who carried out the attack on a kosher market yesterday in Paris, Hayat Boumediene, is no longer in Paris. They believe that, in fact, she left for Turkey, possibly en route to Syria, some one week ago.

Turkey now doing its best to track their movements there. I'm joined now by Samuel Laurent. He's a CNN terror analyst. He has covered the terror issue for some time, has written books about the terror threat here. And Samuel, let's talk about this new warning going out to police today. This resulted from a security briefing today, is that right?

SAMUEL LAURENT, CNN TERROR ANALYST: Yes. Exactly. There has been a security briefing this afternoon from a directory that is basically working on terror issues. And it has been advised to the police to stay very careful as some cells has been uncovered and activated by Coulibaly which was the hostage taker in the kosher shop.

SCIUTTO: Amedi Coulibaly?

LAURENT: Exactly. The hostage taker in the kosher shop and, actually, he has been sending some calls that have been traced over the last days and even hours of his life in order to start activating some of his network. And the instructions seem to be clear, seems to be attacking the police. SCIUTTO: So, when we say activating these terror cells, they are tracing that to phone calls that Amedi Coulibaly made while he had taken over, already taken over this kosher shop, and perhaps before that, after -- I just want to remind our viewers because the attacker who took over the kosher market is the same attacker who killed a female police officer on a shooting in the Paris street Thursday, the day before the attack.

So when they talked about this activation of cells they are talking about him making phone calls to people in this broader terror networks in which he, Coulibaly, and the Kouachi brothers, who carried out the "Charlie Hedbo" attack were involved.

LAURENT: Exactly. We are talking about three peoples from now on. Even the initial cell from which they originated in 2008 was much better and much bigger and better than that. It was 10, 15, or 20 people. This cell has probably increased in terms of number, regarding Syria and the flows of jihadis flowing and coming back to France. So therefore we can expect unfortunately that in those cells those members, the members, are much more numerous than the three we already neutralized.

SCIUTTO: This was the thing, this was an early question, were these original two attacks connected, of course, the very deadly bloody attack on "Charlie Hedbo" on Wednesday followed on Thursday by that police shooting followed, again, by taking over that kosher market. It became very clear to police that, in fact, they were connected. There were deep ties between Coulibaly and between those Kouachi brothers.

LAURENT: Very deep ties. Both of them has basically the same mentor who had met long time ago in jail. They have radicalized there. And basically they spoke the same ideas. And later on, alongside with the war and the fracture in Syria between Al Qaeda and ISIS, we have saw some of them drifting towards the new movement, towards ISIS, because Coulibaly basically was claiming to be acting on the name of ISIS when the others were still loyal to Al Qaeda.

SCIUTTO: This is very interesting. Because there were moments, there were phone calls, the Kouachi brothers, reached by a journalist, a French journalist yesterday, in the midst of this standoff before they were later killed by French security police, a journalist called that office and managed to reach one of the Kouachi brothers who said we are doing this for Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and I believe he also said that Anwar al Awlaki had financed it.

So you had that with the Kouachi brothers. With Coulibaly, at the kosher market, he was saying ISIS. How do you explain that difference? And I wonder, actually, for our viewers as well, do we draw distinctions where there aren't necessarily distinctions that perhaps they could have allegiances to both?

LAURENT: You know, the goal is the same. The goal for ISIS and for Al Qaeda is exactly the same towards the west. It's aggression. It's fighting. It's terrorism. But actually what we saw is a replication of the drift that is now existing among the jihadi community worldwide. You saw it in the Middle East and you saw it in northern Africa. All the jihadi movements that were entirely loyal to Al Qaeda have been drifting with part of them making allegiance to --

SCIUTTO: To ISIS.

LAURENT: -- to the caliphate.

SCIUTTO: Because of ISIS' success really, success as they've taken over as they claim, established an Islamic state in Iraq and Syria, that success is an enormous driver for recruiting.

LAURENT: Exactly. ISIS is concrete. Al Qaeda is an idea. They are basically throwing ideas. ISIS is concrete. ISIS has territory. It has an army. It has a place. A government and so on. So, therefore, yes, it has a power of seduction that is much bigger. But actually what we've seen now is a competition between the two organizations which are far from France. They are rival nowadays. And basically this terror plots are part of, I would say, a competition to gain the heart of radical Muslims worldwide.

SCIUTTO: It really is a sick competition.

LAURENT: It is a very sick.

SCIUTTO: Isn't it? Because the way they attract attention is who can be bloodier? Who can be more brutal?

One final question before we stop, the other development today is the French authorities realizing in effect that the girlfriend or partner, there was some marriage ceremony of Amedi Coulibaly, that she actually was not in France, that she left for Turkey possibly on her way to Syria. How important is she to this, to investigating this, to stopping further attacks, catching her? How important is that?

LAURENT: She was very important and that's why she left. Actually we noticed that for one year she has spent 500 calls to the wife of the other brother. So, therefore, she was the link. They were both very -- under a lot of surveillance. So, the wives I would say or the girlfriends were used at that time to be the logisticians of these operations.

Basically she has a lot of information. She's extremely precious in terms of intelligence. So that's probably why the reason why she's been exited out of France. The same way that in the cold war era people were exited from the Soviet Union.

SCIUTTO: Interesting.

LAURENT: So they left the hostile territory to go back in this black hole that is Syria.

SCIUTTO: Impossible to track there.

LAURENT: Exactly.

SCIUTTO: Samuel Laurent, very helpful on really the alarming, concerning developments today about a further threat here in France. Please stay with us. We're going to have some new information about one of the brother's trips to Yemen and what happened when he came back to France. Another startling development. Please stay with us.

We'll have that right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: And welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Paris. I'm joined now by senior reporter for "L'Express" magazine, Eric Pellitier. He covers terrorism and security issues. And he has some news, really some startling news regarding one of the Kouachi brothers in his travels overseas before this week's attacks. What have you learned?

ERIC PELLITIER, SENIOR REPORT "L'EXPRESS": Yes. We know that, let's say, July 2011, one of the brother went to Haman and has been staying in the region, in the area, has been staying there, around let's say three weeks. We don't know exactly what he did. But the American intelligence services transmitted to the French side a very important information. He may have joined a training camp.

SCIUTTO: OK. So he went to Amman.

PELLITIER: That's for sure.

SCIUTTO: And then on to Yemen, was their belief?

PELLITIER: Probably he went to Yemen to join a training camp.

SCIUTTO: You're saying U.S. intelligence tracked him there and then communicated that to the French.

PELLITIER: That's for sure, because this is the starting point of the French surveillance because in November 2011 because the American transmitted this information to the French, they decided to put these brother under surveillance.

SCIUTTO: See, this was a question. So, after that Yemen trip the French put him under what we call in the U.S. a control order? Is that right?

PELLETIER: Yes. Under surveillance, yes.

SCIUTTO: Under surveillance as well. A control order so he couldn't travel and a surveillance so that they could watch him.

PELLETIER: It's quite different, yes.

SCIUTTO: But you have found and this is particularly startling, that they later made a decision to take him off that surveillance.

PELLETIER: Yes. That's very important. He had been under surveillance during at least three years.

SCIUTTO: OK. So 2011 to 2014.

PELLETIER: Yes.

SCIUTTO: OK.

PELLETIER: Yes. And last summer the surveillance has been ended.

SCIUTTO: They ended the surveillance just last summer? So.

PELLETIER: Yes.

SCIUTTO: So six months roughly before --

PELLETIER: You're right.

SCIUTTO: -- the attacks took place.

PELLETIER: You're right. Because they did not detect any danger, immediate danger, for national security.

SCIUTTO: Did not detect an immediate danger even with the knowledge that he had traveled to Yemen. And I believe they have the knowledge at that point that he had met with Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula with AQAP or just that he had traveled to Yemen?

PELLETIER: We know that he traveled to Amman and he stayed in the region, in the area, and the Americans said probably he went to Yemen.

SCIUTTO: I see.

PELLETIER: But that's the only information we had at that point.

SCIUTTO: I see. So, they believed he had gone on to Yemen. They didn't know for sure, so they weren't, thereby, certain that he had linked up with AQAP to while he was in Yemen?

PELLETIER: Yes.

SCIUTTO: OK. But still, interesting. So, they decided he was an important enough figure to keep him under surveillance for three years --

PELLETIER: That's quite long, yes.

SCIUTTO: A very long time. At a great dedication of resources. I spoke with the former head of French counter terror unit a couple of days ago who explained to me that you need three to 10 officers to keep one person under surveillance. You imagine in a country, I'll just remind our viewers in the U.S. and around the world, that France is estimated has some 5,000 suspected terrorists.

PELLETIER: Yes.

SCIUTTO: This is an enormous task.

PELLETIER: That's probably why the surveillance ended last summer because they did not detect anything. They decided to go to other targets. SCIUTTO: I see. And this is a difficult judgment call to be sure.

Because intelligence services, whether in France or the U.S., they have a number of potential suspects and deciding before they act, is a difficult thing to do. That said, just six months ago to take him off and then this happens. In France how much of a failure is that -- is that considered?

PELLETIER: Well, of course, this is a failure, because when you see that people have been killed, shot dead in Paris, this is a failure, of course. There is no other option. But we must know how -- it has been possible and probably we did not consider the American information transmitted in November 2011.

SCIUTTO: Right. Interesting. So it's an example where you have the French and U.S. intelligence services sharing information, but then, of course, the next step is what do you do with that information?

PELLETIER: Of course. Of course.

SCIUTTO: Eric Pelletier, thanks very much for joining us.

PELLETIER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Interesting reporting and somewhat alarming, Brianna, just to recap, that French intelligence had one of the Kouachi brothers, these are the brothers, of course, responsible for the deadly attack on the "Charlie Hedbo" magazine, under surveillance for three years. Enormous dedication of resources. He had to be important, but just six months ago as Eric Pelletier has reported they took him off the surveillance.

Briana, really a startling development. Back to you in New York.

KEILAR: Thanks, Jim Sciutto, with us in Paris. Certainly that illustrates the difficulties the French authorities have with this problem. I want to talk about it more with security consultant Sal Lifrieri and interrogation and transnational terrorism expect Robert McFadden also with us and we have now national security analyst Bob Baer. He's a former CIA operative and we also have law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes, formerly with the FBI.

Sal, I want to start with you and I want to talk about this warning to police that they really need to in a way kind of erase themselves from social media. Don't put yourself out there. Don't give -- don't make yourself a target really and also keep your gun close. What do you make of this? To French police.

SAL LIFRIERI, SECURITY CONSULTANT: Yes, to the French police. Obviously it's, you know, it's something that law enforcement doesn't hear all the time. It's not something we're very familiar with here within the United States.

But the fact that the warning came out must have been something that was very specific. There must be intelligence that said that some of the cells or some of the groups might be trying to identify law enforcement and go after them. Because they would make an attractive target.

KEILAR: And, Tom, what do you think of this, the fact that there could be some threat against police officers in France? Certainly there is a lot of vigilance here in New York City because of two police officers who were assassinated recently. But what do you make of this new alert in France?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Brianna, you know, the warnings or the threat issued by ISIS in particular has been out for a couple of months now. That's why we saw the attack particularly in Ottawa, Canada, and the hatchet attack of NYPD officers in New York, so this is just a repeat of the standing order, if you will, from ISIS to go after people in uniform, military and/or police officers because they symbolize the government and the uniform is basically like having a target on their back.

Secondly, on social media, you know, a lot of people don't realize if they take pictures at home and they use their smartphone and it's little Pierre's birthday party and they shoot the pictures and put it on Facebook, put it on other social media, sometimes the grid coordinates, the GPS coordinates, are embedded in that photo and others can open it up and say, "aha, that's where that person lives, that's where the police officer's family is." You know, that's part of the reason for being able to track people on social media.

KEILAR: All right, Robert, I want to talk a little bit about what we're hearing from Hezbollah. A terrorist group saying, do you know what, we condemn this. What do we make of this? Is this just Sunni versus Shia? Is this a schism when we're talking about Islamic extremism? What do we decipher this to be?

ROBERT MCFADDEN, INTERROGATION AND TRANSNATIONAL TERRORISM EXPERT: I saw that earlier. And actually no surprise in the current environment a couple of things to take from that. One, politically Hezbollah wants to show the upper hand when it comes to, look, we're not for this kind of savagery and terrorism. OK? The reality of it is though, too, in Syria and in Lebanon, it's going toe to toe with this brand of extreme Sunni Islam that's the ideology that fuels what the brothers did.

So, you have that trying to show we're not for that part of Islam, but at the same time a poke against one of its mortal enemies. That type of ideology in Syria.

KEILAR: So, is that just PR as you read it?

MCFADDEN: That's a part of it, absolutely is a part of it.

KEILAR: It's a part of it, OK. And then I want to talk about some of the news we just heard right before our panel began. Bob, you heard that, that French authorities had had the Kouachi brothers under surveillance for three years and yet just here in the last six months they had pulled that surveillance. What do you think of that? Is this something that French authorities will look back on and will say this was a huge mistake? Or is this French authorities really they're trying to drink out of a fire hose and they can't keep everyone under surveillance who could be a potential problem?

ROBERT BAER, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Brianna, you're exactly right. I mean, the fact that a Frenchman traveled to Yemen does not, you know, mean that he's going there for terrorism training. He may have gone there to study Arabic, to study Islam. You don't know.

Because the only thing the CIA can tell the French is that he's gone there. He's traveled from Amman to Sanaa and he's disappeared. In the mountain areas there's no way to track him. The French put him on a list. They listened to his phone for a while. I doubt they put physical surveillance without a real physical threat.

It would not only take dozens of people, it would take hundreds of people to follow one of these people. If, in fact, there are 5,000 terror suspects in France it's pretty much a gamble who you follow and who you don't. And once we get into this metadata and start looking at this attack we're going to see all sorts of connections that everybody is going to say, they should have gone after this.

But again you've got five million to six million Muslims in France and 5,000 suspects and it's really sort of overwhelmed the French police.

KEILAR: Tom, let's talk about the metadata. The idea that there may be a smarter way to connect the dots here. When you look at how the French police are doing their job here, is it a good job? And how could they get better here?

FUENTES: Well, I think right now, Brianna, we don't know what kind of metadata they have. What that basically means like here in the United States is that instead of only having phone records going back a year or two years you're asking in this case in the U.S., the NSA, hold these records for multiple years so that when the attack happens and we want to go back to 2011 or '10 or 2009, you can go back. And then see the phone calls and the connections and who called who at that time.

Otherwise that's lost forever and you can't go back and retrack who those conversations -- not so much conversation but who was in touch with who and try to retrace that. You know, and as Bob just mentioned, Abdulmutallab, the underwear bomber who tried to blow up the airliner in 2009 attended Arabic studies in Sanaa, Yemen, in 2004 to 2005. So there are, if you will, legitimate purposes to go to Sanaa that don't necessarily involve terrorism or if they do it can be camouflaged by attending a legitimate school.

KEILAR: Yes, very good point. Tom Fuentes, thank you so much. Thank you, Bob Baer as well, as well as Sal and Robert. Appreciate you being with us.

We're going to talk a little bit more about this Hezbollah angle. You have Hezbollah which the U.S. describes as a terrorist organization condemning what has happened in France. Why is this happening? What does this mean? We'll go live to Beirut to talk more about that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SCIUTTO: Welcome back, I'm Jim Sciutto in Paris. The leader of a group considered terrorists by the U.S. and Europe is making his own feelings known about what happened here in Paris. Sayed Hasan (INAUDIBLE) heads the Shiite Muslim group Hezbollah he says extremists in general, Islamic extremists, do more damage to Islam and the prophet Muhammad than any cartoons or books or newspapers.

Our Nick Paton Walsh is in Beirut tonight. Hezbollah has been responsible for terrorist attacks of its own. How significant is it to have the statement like this, granted, he did not mention the "Charlie Hedbo" attackers specifically, but certainly the timing is telling. How significant a statement do you think that is?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the timing was late on Friday. Just as the world was getting to grips with the aftermath of those standoffs in France. Certainly, yes, Hezbollah, as you say, viewed as a terrorist organization by the U.S. and many western countries, too, has had a lengthy, complex task of trying to reposition itself effectively here inside the Middle East. They are on the Shia side. They're representing a Shia majority, minority depending on your demographic viewpoint here inside Lebanon

Politically and militarily too, they are backing the Syrian regime inside Syria, too. Some say they're also fighting inside Iraq as well. When it comes to these acts of extremism in the west, elsewhere, they're often going to be blamed on Sunni radical groups and many say that Hezbollah are carefully and slowly, not mentioning Paris by name in this speech, trying to position themselves in a more, not western friendly, but certainly less anti-western capacity than they used to be. Simply because perhaps they wish to see any assistance or effectively their enemy's enemy being their friend. Coming in their advantage in the months ahead.

But it is very significant to hear Hassan Nasrallah, a man who frankly founded this movement, is involved in this movement from the beginning to oppose the (INAUDIBLE) of Israel, key supporter of, coming out with a statement like that, late on Friday. Jim?

SCIUTTO: I'm glad you made that point, that you, of course, Hezbollah, Shiite group. The terror groups we see active, ISIS, (INAUDIBLE) and in Syria and Iraq, AQAP principally Sunni groups. Is it purely sectarian or is there any other elements there? Because we have seen splits before, and this frankly within the Sunni groups, remember, Al Qaeda in effect kicking out ISIS for being too radical.

So, how much of this in your view is sectarian, and how much of it is a concern you referenced just then, that -- that some of these acts, some of these attacks, may be going too far and might damage their own interests? So, what do percentage do you think or what portion do you think is sectarian or what portion do you think is that concern?

WALSH: I think it's really pragmatism at the end of the day. This is a country Lebanon which is Hezbollah's home, today they are wrestling this evening in the northern city of Tripoli with a double suicide bombing. They hit a restaurant killing seven, injuring 20 according to a state news agency that is most likely going to be claimed by a Sunni extremist group like an ally to Al Qaeda, so there's the midst here in Lebanon, a feeling potential crisis. Most Lebanese strongly oppose ISIS or even the idea of them having an increased presence inside Lebanon but it's locally pragmatic.

I think many are concerned who support Hezbollah that they are significantly drained by their involvement in Syria and even Iraq over the past year or so. They are perhaps looking to consolidate their position here inside Lebanon when it comes to a moment like this when the world frankly is not united but most of it united in a vision of disgust about what happened in Paris they perhaps seized this moment to position themselves perhaps in the global majority rather than their prescription as a terrorist organization finding themselves on the fringes.

So the key moment for them certainly but fascinating I think to hear that voice considered extremist itself by the U.S. coming out effectively against what the U.S. considers extremism today at that particular time, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, fascinating developments for sure. Competition for attention, for relevance among these groups and we see that playing out. Brianna Keilar, throwing back to you now in New York.

You know, it's interesting, we talk a lot about the division between east and west, between Islam and Christianity, but you have, you know, severe divisions playing out within the faith of Islam. Not just sectarian but over these attacks as well.

KEILAR: Yes. Certainly that is the case. And we're going to talk with a guest right now, Jim Sciutto, who is going to cover that with us.

Joining me now, Dr. Qanta Ahmed, a Muslim scholar.

And let's first talk about what Hezbollah is saying that Islamic extremists have hurt Islam more than cartoonists. Some people would say that's rich considering that Hezbollah's considered to be a terrorist organization, but break this down for us.

DR. QANTA AHMED, AUTHOR, "IN THE LAND OF INVISIBLE WOMEN": Brianna, I think they said the opposite. They said the cartoonists have injured Islam more. I think that's what their statement was.

But I think what Hezbollah is trying to do is distance themselves from the actions of these people in France, and that is masterful deception. Hezbollah is an Islamist organization, an Islamist in ideology. Islamism can be institution, nonviolent, or violent, as the French actors in this crisis recently. And what Hezbollah is attempting to do is seeking legitimacy by denouncing these acts when they sponsor exactly the same ideology.

What is the difference between Islam and Islamism? Islam, I'm a Muslim and I follow Islam, it's a spiritual monotheism with a simple coda that we follow, about praying, charity, fasting, maybe visiting to Mecca if we have enough means. Islamism is a manmade 20th century construct. It's politically

totalitarian in ideology and at its center is vehement terrorist jihadism. It's not any kind of jihad that might be written about in the Koran and it also has centrally deep anti-Semitic intent. They regard Islamists, Jews or anything of Jewish identity, Israel, Judaism as a cosmic enemy.

And Hezbollah subscribes to that. Let's not forget that they launched a war in the northern border of Israel in 2006 and they are anticipating a future war with the exactly the same nihilistic ideology. So, it's laughable that they would make a comment.

KEILAR: That Hezbollah is trying to distance itself from what we've seen go on in France.

AHMED: Yes. Ideologues like Hezbollah, which remember is an Iranian sponsored Islamist movement. And Iran itself is an Islamist pseudo- democracy, I would call it a theocracy, but it is an Islamist government, has actually been the proponent of a lot of this violence. Remember, Islamism came out of 20th century Egypt. In 1928, from Hassan Banna, it has all of these qualities that I've talked about.

And it's not constructed from Islamic doctrine, revealed doctrine. It is manmade.

KEILAR: And yet many people struggle to make the distinction that you are making.

AHMED: Yes.

KEILAR: So, how do they do that in a way to better understand what's going on?

AHMED: So, they are, first of all, I think you're doing the very initial steps, which is that we're having a conversation about Islamism versus Islam. Just as at the beginning of the post-9/11 era there was difficulty understanding sectarian divides between Shia and Sunni. Similarly, we're now in an era where people cannot understand that Islamism is not true Islam.

We are enabling that confusion. We, by I'm talking about the United States or Western democracies, by not exposing Islamism. And the way we can distinguish it is learn it. Political scientists have written about it and explained the differences, and much of the scholarships coming out of the Muslim world by Muslim scholars.

KEILAR: Trying to understand and searching for understanding is the key here. And then, just to wrap around what we talked to at the beginning, the head of Hezbollah saying that terrorists have damaged Islam more than cartoons. That's what he said.

AHMED: I see. But he's obviously considering himself not a subscriber to a terrorist ideology.

KEILAR: Which is what I said someone would look at it and say that's rich --

AHMED: Yes. I would consider the ideology -- their ideology inspires and practices terrorist actions.

KEILAR: And you don't differentiate?

AHMED: I absolutely don't. I think one of the -- there have been terrible barbaric outcomes because of ISIS which we recognize to be jihadist and Islamist. But one of the worst outcomes it makes groups like Hamas and Hezbollah appear legitimate because they fall short of a degree of barbarity.

KEILAR: Yes.

AHMED: Hezbollah is practicing a grand deception.

KEILAR: Yes, many shades of it.

All right. Thank you so much, Dr. Qanta Ahmed.

AHMED: Thank you.

KEILAR: And we'll be back with more live coverage from Paris in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back to our viewers in the U.S. and around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Paris tonight.

Police officers all over this country are being told to carry their weapons with them around the clock because officials believe that terrorist sleeper cells have now been activated. They believe that because one of yesterday's suspected hostage takers who is now dead made several phone calls about targeting French policemen and that was two days after the deadly attack on a Paris magazine office in which two police officers were also killed.

A woman who police thought was involved in Friday's hostage standoff is now thought to have been outside the country, possibly in Turkey, with her eventually destination being Syria. Officials haven't revealed why they thought she was involved but they do say she is wanted here in France.

And the two brothers who police believe opened fire on that Paris magazine office Wednesday both are now dead as well, of course. One of them Said Kouachi was reportedly once a roommate in Yemen of the so-called underwear bomber who tried to bring down an airliner over Detroit in 2009. His explosives concealed in his underwear.

I want to go now to the kosher grocery store in eastern Paris where four hostages were killed yesterday. Senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen is there.

Fred, French police initially believe that female suspect Hayat Boumeddiene was possibly inside the store during yesterday's siege but now a major change. What is the latest on the hunt for this female suspect?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly is one that's going to be a lot more difficult now if the authorities really believe that she's not here in France anymore. Of course, it appears as though it was Turkish authorities that then did give the confirmation that she had actually left the country here on January 2nd.

And she was really one of those people who seemed absolutely pivotal to the investigation going forward, Jim, because, remember, that not only was it believed that she might have been inside the kosher store while the siege was going on with Coulibaly, her boyfriend or husband, whichever way one wants to see it, and that she might have escaped in the commotion that happened after the raid by the police.

But it's also it was believed that she might have been an accomplice in the murder that happened only a day earlier on Thursday when a police woman was shot by Coulibaly and he managed to get away there.

Remember that the wanted posters, the wanted signs, of her and him, came out as the siege began here in the kosher store. And so, therefore, she was really one of those pivotal people. Now, of course, she's someone who authorities here want to speak to quite badly as well. Because of the four people known to have been involved, in all of the events that happened here over the past couple of days, she is the only one who is still alive. Whether or not it's feasible for French authorities to be able to get their hands on her or whether or not she's already disappeared in Syria possibly, that's something that the authorities here are going to have to find out.

But certainly she was one of the pivotal people and now it appears she might very well be out of the reach of the law, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And, of course, they may think that she would know more about this broader terror group, the Kouachi brothers, Amedy Coulibaly was involved in and they believe the people, the Kouachi brothers were urging to carry out further attacks on police certainly central to preventing attacks going forward.

Fred, a major event planned here in Paris here tomorrow, hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people joining, but also world leaders joining, some very impressive names. What do we know about the turnout tomorrow and who is going to join from overseas as well?

PLEITGEN: Yes, absolutely. And the turnout appears to be or at heat those participating seems to become more impressive as the hours go on. We know that Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, wants to come. We know that Ahmet Davutoglu, the prime minister of Turkey, wants to come. Angela Merkel will be here. David Cameron of Great Britain will be here.

So, certainly, a very prominent list of people who will come. It's unclear how big the turnout is going to be, but certainly it will be in the tens of thousands if not well over 100,000 who want to take part in that march from Place de la Republique, that's where it's set to begin, around 3:00 p.m. local time here in France. It certainly is a march that's going to be very big. It's going to be

one also that's going to focus not only on freedom of expression, freedom of the press, but generally the way that European societies want to conduct themselves, the way that European societies want to try and foster a little more cohesion between the various groups inside them going forward.

Of course, we keep talking about the fact that France is, of course, the country in Europe that has the largest Muslim population. Also, of course, has by most accounts most Islamic extremists going to places like Iraq and Syria. It is a problem here. Nevertheless, it can't be stated more or often enough that it really is only a tiny fraction who live here who become susceptible to such ideologies.

And there was a vigil that happened here tonight. And that certainly was the message from that vigil as well, is that certainly it is a concern, but also a civil society in a country like this one has to make clear that there is a very, very large silent majority that certainly doesn't condone what happened here over the past couple of days, Jim.

SCIUTTO: No question. We've learned as well that Jordan's king Abdullah to join tomorrow as well. A tremendous showing not just from Europe but leaders of the Middle East, the Muslim world, a show of defiance to this sort of violence.

We're going to take a closer look shortly at the ties between to al Qaeda on the Arabian Peninsula, believed ties to the violence here in Paris, and the group ISIS. That will be right after this break.

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SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Paris. We continue to cover the investigation of the violence here in Paris over the last several days as well as a new warning tonight about the possibility of new attacks.

I'm joined by my colleague Brianna Keilar. She's in New York.

KEILAR: All right. Thanks, Jim.

And I want to bring in our panel and have you jump in here in just a second as well. I want to talk about a rally that we are expecting to see tomorrow. Already today, we've seen hundreds of thousands of people pouring onto the streets in France, trying to show their solidarity with the victims of the attacks in Paris. We were expecting many more to be on the ground tomorrow.

So, let's talk about this now with Robert McFadden. We have Sal Lifrieri, Bob Baer, and we also have Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

Gentlemen, Sal and Robert, you're looking at a march tomorrow that could have hundreds of thousands of people, I don't know, maybe even more. We don't know exactly.

And you've also got two dozen world leaders coming in. That includes -- and I don't know exactly if he's participating in the march at this point, but he's coming in to France, that includes Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

This is a big security concern, is it not?

SAL LIFRIERI, SECURITY CONSULTANT: It's an incredible security concern. You know, having worked on papal visits, inaugurations, and you know the amount of time that you need to -- planning to be able to put an effective security plan in place. When you look at tomorrow, what's going to happen and in light of everything that's gone on and is going on today, it's just an incredible security undertaking.

You know, you have an alert coming out today telling police officers to carry -- to make sure to have their weapons and to have their weapons, you're saying that cells have been activated and you are holding this event and you have world leaders coming. I can't picture the person who is responsible, what that person is going through tonight, who is responsible for the security.

KEILAR: Do you think that France is ready for this, Robert?

ROBERT MCFADDEN, FORMER SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, NCIS: What Sal said, it's hard to imagine a security event, endeavor, of that scale with all that's going on with the threat reporting. Obviously, with the ambush of the French police woman a few days ago, intelligence and the ongoing threat to the police, incredible.

On the other hand, though, I think at a national level, looking at it from the French perspective, resiliency, civil society, you know, is right there with security right now --

KEILAR: Yes.

MCFADDEN: -- as an important item for them.

KEILAR: Yes, some defiance to say that we aren't going to be -- we are not going indoors because of what has happened.

I want to bring in Jim Sciutto now.

I know you have some questions for our panel, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Thanks, Brianna.

You know, the numbers are just daunting here. Not only in France but for Europe and frankly for the U.S. because you have really this pipeline of fighters coming out of Iraq and Syria, as well as really hard to determine the extent, the pool for lone wolf attacks, radicalized on their own.

I wonder if as Americans, as Europeans, if the new reality is that attacks like this become a fact of life? As good a job as intelligence services can do to prevent some attacks, that invariably some will get through.

Bob Baer, your experience in the CIA for years, is that a new reality do you think, not just for Europeans, but for Americans as well?

BOB BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Jim, I think this is -- we're going to be hearing a lot more about this. There's going to be more attacks. They're going to probably be sophisticated like the ones in France.

And let's don't forget, these were assassinations against the magazine. They were directed against the kosher market and shooting the police, hitting people in uniform, is a new level of an assault on the West.

And I think that the French are -- I've worked with the French in the past. They're very, very good. They're good at data analytics. They got a great counterterrorism team there.

But they simply can't deal with 5,000 suspects and 5 million to 6 million Muslims. We don't even know how many Muslims there are in France and easy travel to getting into Syria, into Yemen, crossing the border in Turkey. They simply can't keep track of everybody.

And if these people, the jihadists, are determined to hit France, they will get through.

SCIUTTO: It's a daunting reality.

Brianna Keilar and I will be back with our panel with more on this topic right after this break.

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KEILAR: I want to bring back our panel now to talk about our breaking news coming out of Paris. We have Robert McFadden. We have Sal Lifrieri, Bob Baer with us, as well as Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

I want to talk to you, General Hertling, about what we're seeing as this split. Not really a split, but kind of a battle that you're seeing in Islamic extremism between ISIS and al Qaeda. You have ISIS essentially being kicked out of al Qaeda, or al Qaeda saying really trying to distance itself from ISIS.

Let's talk about how that fits in to what we have seen in Paris and also just talk about what we're seeing in the big picture here in this struggle between these two groups.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes. I was fascinated by your conversation with Jim a little while ago, Brianna.

The AQAP is more of a political and a tribal organization not so much sectarian. You have al Qaeda in Pakistan. None of them are competing well. And there's conflict with ISIS.

All of these things have transitioned over the years and I think you've seen an ebb and flow between different people joining different organizations. When you talk about the two brothers in France, who immediately were enamored with AQAP, that organization has changed significantly over the last several years.

KEILAR: And we're seeing those changes. And these sort of you heard Dr. Ahmed talking about, I guess, these splinter groups or what many people would identify as Islamist extremist groups. And she said that they're really -- you know, this isn't to be confused with Islam.

Talk about what you see these groups doing to counter modern, nonviolent Muslim efforts.

HERTLING: Well, what I've seen over the last few days is there's been such an intense reaction by a lot of people of Islam to this attack, but you also have a popular uprising in many countries across Europe to fanaticism. It reminds me a lot of what we saw in the awakening movement in Iraq, when moderate Islam rose up against al Qaeda in Iraq in 2007 to begin the awakening. I think we may be on the cusp of that, and that's something that could be a positive in all of this activity.

KEILAR: And you saw that with all of the time that you spent in Iraq, a very fascinating development there in the rejection of extremism. We will obviously hope that that is the case that we see that here and we'll be watching to see.

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, thank you so much. Thank you as well to Robert, Sal and Bob. We're going to be back in just a quick moment with more on our breaking news out of Paris.

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