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The World Comes To Paris For Unity Rally; Grand Synagogue Event
Aired January 11, 2015 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Again, that newspaper did show some of the Muhammad (ph) cartoons.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Brian and Jake, that cartoon (INAUDIBLE) name is (INAUDIBLE) and I interviewed him a couple of year ago after the last round of "offense" which led to people fire bombing the Charlie Hebdo headquarters. That was in 2011. And I asked him about what he was doing because actually at that time, you know, they were criticized by the White House, by the (INAUDIBLE), by many for provoking, for pouring fuel on the fire. And (INAUDIBLE) said, you know what, I am not shocking anybody who does not want to be shocked. These are the extremists. We're looking there are the Eiffel Tower as we speak, and it is lit and lighting up for three full minutes.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: What a beautiful sight.
CHRISTIAN AMANPOUR, CNN ANCHOR: And do you know this past week, on Thursday, during the national day of mourning the Eiffel Tower dramatically went up -- went out. It is now four straight minutes of lighting.
TAPPER: That is beautiful image.
Brian. just to share with you, when I was talking -- after having arrived here over the weekend when I was talking to Frenchman about Charlie Hebdo and his thoughts on the publication, he was Muslim, he remembered one the -- one of the men killed -- one of the men killed by the terrorist on Wednesday was a cartoonist known as Cabu. And he remembered Cabu because Cabu in the 70's had been a host of a children's television show here in France. These individuals -- it might be tough for people in some places where cartoonists are not as revered as they are in France and in Europe, but these were not just staffers of a newspaper, and I don't know say that, you know, staffers at a TV station. These were -- these were celebrities, these cartoonists.
AMANPOUR: They really were. They were part of society here which is why people are still so much sorrow, because they really did feel like they were as you say a celebrity. They were known to society here.
And Brian, I am sorry I interrupted you. I just stepped in. I thought (ph) Jake was (ph) talking (ph) to me for some odd reason, but that is what you get when you are standing close to each other. But also, you know, Brian, and you know this, America (ph) does not have the same irreverente (ph) tradition as (INAUDIBLE) Europe does. I mean, very much in the life, Brian Monty Python...
TAPPER: Right.
AMANPOUR: ... all the way to Charlie Hebdo there is a very venerable tradition of just striking (ph) the most enormous response (ph) of Jews, of Christians and Muslims. And this is something this part of the world does not want to give up. I don't know, Brian, whether we would ever see these kinds of cartoons published in the United States or indeed reprinted on American television.
STELTER: I think you're (INAUDIBLE) something important, Christiane, because we don't have a great analogy to show what American viewers about the magazine. We might say "The Daily Show" or "The Onion" but it's not the same. There's not that same tradition in the U.S.
However, now thanks to the internet everybody can see what Charlie Hebdo was and will be publishing. There is that advantage that we didn't have even a few short years ago. And if you'll allow me to (INAUDIBLE) your comment, Christiane, I think you'll agree with me on this, it's worth pointing out that many of the foreign leaders that we see assembled there have their own histories of persecuting journalists, of jailing (ph) journalists, of trying to expunge commentary and opinion that they have not like to see. I think it's worth noting that the Reporters Without Borders group today has come out and criticized this what they call, predators or press freedom, from countries like Turkey and Egypt and Russia and Algeria. All of whom have assembled there today but all of whom have not the greatest track records when it comes to press freedom.
We should keep that in mind today but also tomorrow after these world leaders head home to their respective countries where in some cases journalists are behind bars.
TAPPER: It's an excellent -- that point, Brian, just to take a moment it is just after 6:00 p.m. here in Paris this afternoon on the East Coast of the United States. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world.
I'm Jake Tapper. I'm in Paris at the Place de la Republique where this amazing, amazing unity rally has taken place today. People from all over the world, world leaders as well as citizens from all walks of life in Paris, France standing together, marching together talking about the need for the liberties and the freedoms enjoyed in this country to continue in the face of threats from the terrorists, from ISIS, from al Qaeda that we have seen.
I'm Jake Tapper in Paris with my colleague Christiane Amanpour.
AMANPOUR: And nothing perhaps says France more than that spectacular shot of the fully illuminated Eiffel Tower that you have seen and are looking at. This is going to be illuminated for a period of time to mark also these rallies and perhaps nothing says France more than the home of liberty, equality and fraternity pouring out this tidal wave of humanity today. A really historic day for France and a resounding response to the terror of what has happened here and what has taken place over the last several days starting with the wholesale assault and the slaughter of journalists, cartoonists, who simply were doing their honest job and being able to do and enact the freedom of expression that we all take for granted, and then turning their guns and their weapons on Jews in the Jewish kosher supermarkets on Friday.
TAPPER: The rally started this morning, Christiane, and I have been here all day.
The sun has now set on the city of lights here in Paris. We have been here all day and the crowd undeterred no matter how much rain or cold or wind that came its way. It started here beginning with just a few dozen and then hundreds and then thousands and then tens of thousands and then maybe up to a million. Certainly unprecedented crowd marching starting out here at the Place de la Republique and going north on different paths to Place de la Nationale (ph) or Nation -- I am pronouncing that (INAUDIBLE)?
AMANPOUR: De la Nation.
TAPPER: That. Close enough. And that's where we find our colleague and CNN anchor and looking out over the plaza, and we go down there to our colleague Hala Gorani who is with the crowd there. Talking to people about why they're out there.
Hala, what are you seeing? Who are you talking to?
HALA GORANI, ANCHOR, CNN INTERNATIONAL: All right. Well Jake, this is really at capacity (INAUDIBLE). I have not seen it like this. We've covered demonstrations here before but we've ever seen really such a cross section of the French population all in one place, all with the same message essentially. We are Charlie. We are here to defend the freedom of expression. We're also here to send a message to the world. Then people here
realize we're CNN, that we're international media and they say come to us. And they say, tell the world we are not afraid.
I am joined here (INAUDIBLE) who is also one of the people participating in this big unity rally at (ph) the (ph) Place (ph) de (ph) la (ph) Republique (ph).
(INAUDIBLE), why you came here today, why you felt the need to come here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the first reason is because I am French, and it is very significant for us to actually be here and share to also the Muslim people who are victim of it, all the Jewish people who are victim of it. And basically one nation under one flag is very important to be (ph).
GORANI: All right. Now, when the attack on Charlie Hebdo happened, when the attack on the kosher supermarket happened, one after the other these tragedies, in your city, you are a Parisian, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I am . Yes.
GORANI: What went through your mind? What was the emotion the primary emotion (INAUDIBLE)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well people actually mentioned that it was a French 9/11 it's really mu reading of it. We had the feeling of being at war suddenly. And the images is -- we saw on TV were definitely war. A great concern, a great worry, and also a feeling that something had to be done, to be fighting against those people.
GORANI: Beyond this march, which is an inspiring display of unity, of brotherhood, of saying to the world, we are not afraid, how do you think France should respond?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, France is -- definitely needs to be implementing a strong policy, and basically showing those -- who those people are and we need to make sure that they can't do that to us again.
GORANI: There were concerns, there were scares, bomb scares, the Metro (ph) when we were coming here, some stations closed, did you have any concern for you safety?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I have concerns, of course. There can be a bomb anywhere especially here. But if we give in to fear, if we give in to this kind of feelings there would have won and this is no question at all. They are not going to win.
GORANI: You know, and people have been asking, Jake, one of the questions, and Christiane, one of questions out there is, these men who are suspected of having committing these acts and who most probably did are not foreigners. They are born inside of France. And so they are your compatriots. Why do you think this happened in some of these communities? Why is there this extremism in some cases that takes hold in some neighborhoods?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, French people, I mean, the strongest worry is that basically the guy who actually did the kosher supermarket thing shooting was somebody else. That was in prison, in France, released a few weeks ago. Could somebody else explain to me why? Why?
Basically, he has been trained to do war against us what on earth are we doing on releasing this guy? That is the only question I ask.
GORANI: You are seeing a failure of policing, of surveillance, of intelligence, of integration. Where is the failure?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My reading is the threat is no longer something we are used to and we need to adapt ourselves to be able to fight it. And when we identify the people, we need to do something about them.
GORANI: All right. (INAUDIBLE), thank you very much and thanks for talking to us...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you -- (CROSSTALK)
GORANI: ...here on CNN. Our viewers around the world and in the U.S. as well they're (ph) just giving you a picture of what's going on at Place de la Nation. This is the end point of this rally.
Jake and Christiane the Place (ph) is absolutely full. I am being told that we have some activity there with all sorts of displays really of signs saying, we are all Jewish. We are all cops. We are all Muslims. And it's a really impressive and touching display of unity in this country today. Back to you.
AMANPOUR: Hala, thank you. And of course (INAUDIBLE) made a very important point, what was this guy doing out of jail? Why were these guys able to slip out of the dragnet?
And after the euphoria of today and this massive and resounding response to the terror of this week there will have to be a reckoning here in France. We'll be back with more after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: And you are looking at pictures of the Place de la Nation and a giant inflatable puppet that is there as part of this incredible outpouring. It is a beautiful site. As night has totally fallen out all you see are the lights that are illuminating this sea of humanity that has come out.
I say sea of humanity because the prime minister called for a tidal wave to come out tonight. And today at this hour, the minister of interior says the crowd to (ph) be (ph) unprecedented so much so that they cannot even count yet how many people have come out on this day, Jake.
TAPPER: I'm Jake Tapper here with Christiane Amanpour where the Place de la Republique, which is down a few miles from the Place de la Nation where you are seeing that -- what was that puppet? Was that the liberte (ph) (INAUDIBLE)?
AMANPOUR: You know what? I knew you'd ask me but I don't know.
TAPPER: Was it the woman from the famous painting of the French revolution?
AMANPOUR: It could be. It could just be a puppet.
TAPPER: Let's just (INAUDIBLE) it's just a puppet. But what we have seen in addition to that puppet what symbolizes I think so much in terms of just a -- the joy of this crowd, the defiant joy of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who have come here to march, to -- not to protest the terrorist, not to -- but to defiantly say, you can't shake us.
AMANPOUR: Well, you heard what this gentleman said, they will not win. We will not lose.
TAPPER: Right. Really just quite amazing.
But I want to go to Fredrik Pleitgen right now, who is in the crowd talking to different people. Fred, you already introduced us to one of the most remarkable images of the day that young woman, the Muslim woman, holding up a sign saying Je suis Juif. I am Jewish standing in solidarity with her Jewish brothers and sisters who are afraid frankly after the terrorist attack on the kosher supermarket on Friday which left four dead. Who are you with now?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jake. Yes, I am still with a lot of people here who here who had stayed here on the Place de la Republique. Of course, most of them have moved over to where Hala is where right now. But there are still a lot of people who are protesting, demonstrating.
If you look behind me you can see that many of them are still here. I have Arthur here with me.
Come over here. A little closer to the camera. Don't be shy. This way. There you go. Yes. Tell me why you came out here today.
ARTHUR, PARTICIPANT OF THE UNITY MARCH IN PARIS: Well, I think it's a -- we need altogether for the events of Wednesday. And we must show the world and especially terrorists that we are not afraid and we will keep fighting for --
(CROSSTALK)
PLEITGEN: Yes. What do you think has changed in France since Charlie Hebdo because it seems as though the nation is thinking about itself a lot, about how it wants to be in the future?
ARTHUR: I think we have been -- well, sorry. Can you repeat the question?
PLEITGEN: What do you think has changed in France since Charlie Hebdo?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unity (INAUDIBLE) people of course everybody is just fighting together. Nationalities they don't matter like religion they don't matter either. Everybody is together to fight against terrorism to show the world we are fighting against them. We will never give up. Like never ever. (INAUDIBLE) I (ph) mean (ph) we have to show this. We have to show that we are all united. And (INAUDIBLE) that's great, that's really great feeling today.
PLEITGEN: How do you feel about that so many people have come here today? Because I mean it was I think more than a million people showed up here today. What does that -- what does that -- what do you think that says?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry?
PLEITGEN: What do you think that says about France? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That shows its power actually. The power again of the unity of its people, I think that -- I don't know. We're (INAUDIBLE) -- two million is amazing. It's a lot, really.
Like in Paris you can't even move, you can't -- you can't even walk the (ph) fact (ph) because there is -- there are too many people. And this is really amazing. Don't you agree?
PLEITGEN: Yes. Of course, I agree. But do you think that perhaps in the past that the majority of people in France might have been too silent on the issues? That maybe this is a debate that France should have had a long time ago?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think we have to wonder about the past. You know? Like we just have to focus on the future right now. What is past is in the past. Well, we have to learn from our mistakes of course but now we have to act to change the future actually.
So, I didn't even wonder about the past. Like now I'm young (INAUDIBLE) there are many young people here. We just want to think about the future of our country and well -- the world of course.
PLEITGEN: Kind of a unified country of course. There you go, Jake.
That's the kind of (INAUDIBLE) that you get around here is people who are fighting for unity, people who want understanding instead of division. And I think that that's really one of the main sort of things that we would -- that we can extract from what we see here today is that as a reaction to the terrible events of that had happened here over the past couple of days Frenchmen, people of all faiths here have not allowed themselves to be divided, that the majority came out today and have shown the world what France really is about, Jake.
TAPPER: All right. Fredrik Pleitgen, thank you so much.
And Christiane?
AMANPOUR: The puppet.
TAPPER: The puppet. I do want to ask --
AMANPOUR: It's Marianne.
TAPPER: Marianne, the goddess of liberty. That's who it was.
AMANPOUR: Marianne, the symbol of France.
TAPPER: Right. OK. But we have now established the giant puppet (INAUDIBLE) at the Place de la Nation.
But I want to go right now to Simone Rodan-Benzaquen. He's the director of the American Jewish Committee office here in France joining us now.
Thank you so much for being with us. I guess, the question I have is what does today's demonstration mean for the Jewish community in France? Did you see the many moderate Muslim voices standing here say -- holding signs saying Je suis Juif and feel reassured and not, I guess -- I don't know if fearful is the right word but certainly the Jewish community in France has been under attack.
SIMONE RODAN-BENZAQUEN, DIRECTOR, AJC PARIS: Well, to some extent it's exactly what the Jewish community has been waiting for for a very long time. It's very unfortunate that it took these terrible events to happen, that the country seems to be waking up.
We have been in fear for a very long time. I'm a mother of two children. We think about the future of our children in this country and the future of this country, of the values that it is trying to -- that it should be upholding. And yes, it is indeed very heartwarming. The very question that we ask ourselves now is the day after. Now we are in sort of -- some sort of youth -- some sort of excitement and a sense of unity and a sense of solidarity. But the question really now will -- that will be -- need to be asked is what is going to happen tomorrow? Are the necessary decisions will be taken? Will the government confront this very, very difficult radical Islamism that we -- that we are facing?
AMANPOUR: Simone, it is Christiane Amanpour. The prime minister had said there is no France without French Jews and obviously there is no place in this nation for anti-semitism he said. We know it exists but is the answer for Jews to leave and go elsewhere like they have been doing for instance back to Israel? Or is this a place where Jews can still live and be a part of the important society here?
TAPPER: Simone, I'm not sure if you heard the question, but Christiane was asking about whether or not --
BENZAQUEN: No, I didn't. Sorry.
TAPPER: OK. I'm sorry. Do you want to try it again some?
AMANPOUR: Simply to say that the prime minister has addressed the fears (ph) and said, France is not France without its Jews.
BENZAQUEN: I can hear you very badly.
AMANPOUR: It was known for months but (ph) -- OK.
TAPPER: Let me ask you. Something might be wrong with the microphone, Christiane. I don't know if I can -- so, Simone, what Christiane is asking is basically is the answer for French Jews to move to Israel as it has been happening in the last year, Jewish emigration out of France, Jewish immigration into Israel has increased significantly, because so many Jews at France are afraid. Or do you feel confident that French Jews can continue to be part of the society and live in safety and security?
BENZAQUEN: Well, from -- first of all, it is difficult for me to be able to tell Jews what to say -- what to do.
From my perspective, I can definitely understand the Jews who ask themselves the questions whether they should be leaving. I can understand those Jews who are leaving to Israel or anywhere else. But would I from my personal perspective would say, let's stand and fight.
Jews have lived in this country for thousands of years. They have been very, very black spots in France's history and in the relationships Jews have had with this country, but let's stand up and fight and let's not only for our -- for the future of Jews here in this country but for the very value (ph) we love this country. So, I really hope this is a wake-up call for the entire nation that this incredible event of today is historic and will serve really as a wake- up call for entire nation.
Only then the Jewish community will be able to feel protected. We will be able to feel that it is valued within the nation -- within the nation and maybe then next year instead of having 10,000 people who are leaving to Israel out of fear, there might be people who are leaving to Israel because out of ideology, because they want to go to live in Israel, but maybe next year or the year after, there will be far less who are leaving to Israel because of fear.
TAPPER: All right. Simone, thank you so much. Good luck to you. Good luck to your children as you stay and fight the forces of anti- semitism and indeed all bigotry here in France, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Jake, let's turn now to Irshad Manji who is herself a performer, a writer and an advocate for reform in Islam. Joining us from the U.S.
We've have talked a lot about the twin attacks Irshad, that have taken place here on the press and on the Jewish community. When it comes to the press and freedom of expression, how do you see this long, long tradition of freedom of expression continuing in its bold way as it has been given what has happened here and given the threats and attacks that even now are underway in Hamburg and in Brussels?
MANJI: You know, Christiane, I will say that among the new generation of Muslims, there is a great commitment to freedom of expression, because these kids know that their ability to express their individuality, their diversity depends on letting other people have that freedom as we well.
What I am more skeptical about is institutions, schools, governments, even companies self-censoring out of fear that their students, their employees, their staff will be in jeopardy. So, I think a full-on commitment to free expression is going to need an understanding on the part of all sectors of society that bullying and intimidation are no longer acceptable.
AMANPOUR: You are absolutely right. She is absolutely right, right? That the new generation is much more amenable to all of this but we exists, Jake, in a real crisis point whereby these extremes of faith simply do not want to have any expression other than the expression that they want out the there.
TAPPER: Yes. Irshad, I just wonder what your response would be obviously the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving and want to have just the same things that everybody else does safe -- safety and security for their family, et cetera, but there is also a new generation of Muslims who are becoming radicalized, in Europe especially, but throughout the world. It is a minority. It does not speak for the vast majority of Muslims, but it is a serious problem. How can the common person watching the program right now, what can they do?
MANJI: Well, they can be get more comfortable with asking questions, uncomfortable questions and asking them out loud. Asking them of Muslims, and inviting conversations that are taboo.
So, whether it is at school for example instead of merely celebrating multiculturalism day, having dances and food and costume parties, why not have days where we actually explore what it means to become gutsy global citizens, to be ethical global citizens, and stand for something even if it means risking being told that you are offending me.
AMANPOUR: Irshad, you know, I introduced you in part as an advocate for reform in Islam, where is this reform going to come from? Who is going to lead this reform?
MANJI: I don't know that the reformist movement which is emerging will have only one leader. What I can tell you, Christiane, is that more and more young Muslims are embracing the r-word, reform.
You and I have known each other for years. You knew me at a time when the -- a word reform was dirty and was not acceptable. But you know, 9/11 happened more than a decade ago. The kids who were only toddlers at that age are now in their late teens and some in their 20s. And they don't have the defensive baggage that their older brothers and sisters, their parents, their aunts and uncles did as Muslims who wanted to shield themselves from the Islamophobia.
So this new generation is operating with a much more open mind, more hungrier heart, and I think that's where the leadership is going to come for reform among Muslims.
TAPPER: Irshad, if I could ask you, I'm wondering what your interpretation, your reaction was to -- on January 1st, when the president of Egypt, General Sisi, called the imams, the clerics together and said that extremist Islam, radical Islam, terrorist Islam, needed to be rooted out of Islam, what you reaction was to that. Is General Sisi the right person to be leading the charge?
MANJI: No, he's absolutely not the right person to be leading the charge. However, every voice helps. What I would say, though, is that -- and it goes back to my point to Christiane, is that the clerics no longer matter. They actually haven't mattered for many, many years. Especially in countries like France, very few Muslims go to mosques, very few consider imams and muftis to be their authorities. The real ground swell is from the next generation, Jake, especially the kind of girl whom you've been talking about all afternoon, the young Muslim woman who held up a sign saying "je suis juif," "I am a Jew." I can honestly tell you that it didn't need this kind of a crime that we are gathering for today, it didn't need that for me to know, given all the messages I'm receiving around the world now for years now, we didn't need this event to show that a new generation is capable and ready for pluralism.
TAPPER: Well, I hope you're right, Irshad. Thank you so much for joining us.
AMANPOUR: And we're going to get a sense of where the intelligence community is headed in its attempts to try to resolve some of these issues. We'll have much more when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: Welcome back to CNN's coverage of the unity rally, standing with France. I'm Jake Tapper, here with Christiane Amanpour. We are live from Place de la Republique here in Paris, France. Up to 1 million people. Heads of state from all over the globe coming here to stand with France.
One of the things that's been very interesting today is the news that the president of France, Francois Hollande, will be going to the Grand Synagogue of Paris, along with the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu. The Grand Synagogue of Paris did not hold Shabbat services on Friday, the day that there was that terrorist attack on the kosher supermarket. It was the first time that the synagogue had not held Shabbat services since World War II. Symbolically, very depressing and in fact fearful moment or the Jewish community in France.
We are moving beyond the event of today, the unity rally, though, and thinking about tomorrow, thinking about what is France going to be talking about tomorrow, what are French officials going to be talking about tomorrow. And, in fact, there is a rising chorus of criticism and questions of French authorities, especially because, Christiane, the Kouachi brothers, Said and Cherif, were know by French authorities. They were on a do not fly list. They wouldn't have been able to fly into the United States. I believe that they were blocked from entering Great Britain. And yet they were able to carry out their plot, even though one of them had done time for recruiting jihadis to fight against the Americans in Iraq. And we have a guest to talk about this.
AMANPOUR: Indeed. Alain Bauer joins us. He's a professor of criminology both here in France and he has been (INAUDIBLE) to the John Jay College in New York. And you've also been an advisor to the New York Police Department.
To Jake's point, will there be an after-action report? Does France do that kind of thing well? Does there have to be some answers to how this actually happened?
ALAIN BAUER, PROFESSOR, NATIONAL PRIVATE SECURITY CONTROL COUNCIL: First, the prime minister said first (ph) was great on (INAUDIBLE), that there were failure in the system. Usually when a politician of this level says that, you have consequences. Second, France doesn't like what we call region of experience, because usually it begins by who is responsible? Who is -- who was the guilty part of the failure. This is not the way it will work. The way it will work will be our (ph) need to say it was a failure, how do you fix it? And this part of the job is the most difficult to achieve because the French intelligence system is under a big turmoil since the -- ten years since the (INAUDIBLE) was the grand opening of what we are looking today --
AMANPOUR: That was a shooting in Toulouse a few years ago.
BAUER: In Toulouse. Again -- and the French militaries and the Jewish school. And, in fact, we learned a lot of this situation, but we did not achieve a lot.
AMANPOUR: So the obvious question is --
BAUER: We achieved structural operation, but not the cultural revolution that is necessary.
AMANPOUR: All right. Well, you've sort of laid out what is necessary. Describe what is absolutely necessary. You can never prevent 100 percent. But to at least keep those people who are under surveillance still under surveillance.
BAUER: Yes, in fact, the most important issue is not the Kouachi brothers. Kouachi brothers were under surveillance for a long time. What they did --
AMANPOUR: Until they weren't.
BAUER: They smoked the investigator. They showed no activity, no nothing.
TAPPER: They fooled them.
BAUER: And after a while, the Coulibaly case (ph), it's much more important because --
TAPPER: Well, that's -- that's interesting --
BAUER: Because he is not known. He's famous. He has not only a criminal record, but he had the terrorist records. And he was just getting out from jail. Maybe everything happened because they were waiting for him to get out from jail. Maybe everything happened because he was the leader of the group and not the Kouachi brother. Maybe we were wrong on who was the leading part of the team. And what we know now is the ISIS video is, in fact, he was. That was an option I put on yesterday. I think it that be proven right by himself. So the big issue is, how did we fail between judiciary, penitentiary and intelligence on not looking on these guys that must have been on the top of the list, and not lost somewhere in the bureaucracy.
AMANPOUR: As we talk, we're just looking at a big sign, again, "Charlie, je pense donc je suis," the famous (INAUDIBLE) symbol of France, really, and a free thought, "I think therefore I am."
TAPPER: I want to ask you, professor, because you said they smoked them, meaning the Kouachi brother, they fooled the people who were watching. BAUER: Uh-huh.
TAPPER: They convinced them, according to intelligence sources telling CNN that the Kouachi brothers seemed in recent months and years to be instead interested in counterfeiting and more petty crimes and less the kind of terrorist activity that they carried out on Wednesday. Do French authorities now know that terrorists are capable of fooling them? Was that something -- again, I don't want to -- there will be a commission set up to determine blame. It's not for me to say so. But it does seem like if you are convicted and serve time in jail for recruiting jihadis to fight Americans in Iraq, as one of the Kouachi brothers was, you're not fooling around. And whether or not in a couple of years later if you're talking about, oh, I'm going to turn to counterfeiting, that seems like very questionable that you would just like take that at face value.
BAUER: That's true. That's my point. But it was 10 years ago. And the issue is, you lost the track.
AMANPOUR: The trail.
BAUER: You are put on so many other things. You look on, for example, jihadi coming back from Syria, on the last few months, zero jihadi coming back from Syria tried to commit attacks. The only one who commit attacks in France, in Canada, in Great Britain, in Australia, in France, are the one we did not allow to go do the jihad in Syria. Maybe by asking ourselves the wrong question, we got the wrong answers.
AMANPOUR: That is so interesting, particularly in light of what the head of the British MI5, the domestic intelligence there, said just this week, that they have detected something like 14 -- 20-plus in the last 14 months and that they believe that Syria-related terrorism of a mass casualty type is coming.
BAUER: It's true, we have a lot of threat and risk, but what we don't look is what Raymond Kelly in NYPD, in 2003, when he reformed totally the intelligence, created the most interesting (ph) intelligence service for local police in the U.S. showed, homegrown terrorism, radicalization in the west, the homegrown threat, what he said is we don't have any more imported (ph) terrorists. They are home first. And, second, they are average, half criminal, half terrorist. They don't belong to any old (ph) cases (ph) where we put them before. Intelligence like to put things in small cases because it's comfortable, it's easy. What we have is something that is a nebula. It's moving. It's spiral (ph). It's different. And we have a lot of difficulties adapting to this terrorism with an "s" and not the good old the terrorism that was a singular plot.
TAPPER: Professor, is it legal for French citizens to go to Iraq and Syria to fight on behalf of the al Qaeda affiliate al Nusra Front or ISIS?
BAUER: Until January, there was no law forbidding anybody to get other crimes to any other destination, including going through Istanbul or Madrid, which was the case of the girlfriend, of Hayat Boumeddiene. BAUER: Boumeddiene.
TAPPER: Yes.
BAUER: So, in fact, yes, it's --
TAPPER: So now it's illegal, but in told --
BAUER: No, it's not illegal to fly. It's possible for the (INAUDIBLE) to take off your I.D.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
BAUER: And passport.
TAPPER: But is the -- but is the fighting, is going to another country to fight on behalf of ISIS, that's against the law?
BAUER: Yes, it was. It's against the law, but traveling is not.
TAPPER: So if there are hundreds of French citizens who have gone and returned and the intelligence knows who they are and where they are, why are they walking around freely?
BAUER: Because there is -- first, a lot, and, second, the history of French fighters in the Algerian civil war 20 years ago show that we are thousand who came in and out of Chechnya, Bosnia, Algeria, Afghanistan, everywhere. Most of them did not try -- even try to commit an attack.
AMANPOUR: And think --
BAUER: So one who are committing attack are those we don't look because they are home, not the ones that are traveling.
AMANPOUR: So how do you monitor the homegrown ones, because, you know, one of the great sort of statements of this past week was that there are too many of them and not enough of us.
BAUER: Look at the files. If you look at the files, you perfectly know that it's easy to monitor. It's so obvious. So it's easy to say that after. But, honestly, when you have such a catastrophe, a terrorist catastrophe, you have inquiry commission. An inquiry commission only said three things. For the last fifty (ph) year, in ever (INAUDIBLE) country. First, we almost know everything, 9/11 report. Second, for (INAUDIBLE), we didn't connect the dots. Certainly to not happen again until next commission.
The big problem now is not to find them. We know them. It's to understand them.
AMANPOUR: All right.
TAPPER: It's very interesting, very interesting.
We're going to take a very quick break. There is a very historic meeting coming up with the French president, Francois Hollande, and the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, visiting the Grand Synagogue here in Paris. A synagogue that shut down its Shabbat services Friday for the first time since World War II. But they are going there in another act of community and in another act of defiance, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. We are here at the Place de la Republique. Night, as well, and truly fallen. And it's more like a party now with these millions of people who have come out all day to march, to rally, to stand in solidarity.
We're going to go now, I'm here with Jake Tapper, to our colleague, Atika Shubert, who is at the HyperCacher market, which was the scene of the hostage taking and the killing of Jews there on Friday.
Atika, what more do you know?
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Christiane, I mean you can barely see the market, actually, because there's so many people here. This -- we're about a kilometer away from the Place de la Nation and people have just been flowing over here to pay their respects, to light candles, put down flowers. And we've seen the Jewish community come out here to pray. We've also seen Israeli politicians, Naftali Bennett come and survey the scene, talk to members of the Jewish community here. So there's really been an outpouring of people here.
But I have to say, not just the Jewish community. We've also seen people from all walks of life here in Paris come here to show their support with that rallying cry, "je suis juif," "I am a Jew" or "I am Jewish." That is the way many Parisians have been showing their solidarity with the Jewish community here.
So that is the scene as we have it here. The crowds have just been building every moment. It's actually gotten so much busier now and it doesn't show any signs of slowing down, Christiane.
TAPPER: Very interesting. We're waiting right now for President Hollande, Francois Hollande of France, to go to the Grand Synagogue of Paris with the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. This is a very symbolically important event because on Friday, the day that those four Jewish men were killed at the kosher supermarket right near you, Atika, the Grand Synagogue in Paris shutdown and did not have Shabbat services for the first time since World War II, since the Holocaust. And so the fact that Netanyahu and Hollande are going there right now is meant to show solidarity, and it's meant to symbolize that it is safe to go to that synagogue once again. Is that right?
SHUBERT: Well, yes, its hugely symbolic --
AMANPOUR: We may have --
SHUBERT: Of course, and to see President Hollande going there with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu certainly does show that solidarity. And the fact that -- the fact that this attack was carried out in a kosher supermarket, in the heart of the Jewish community, that's what's really hit so many Parisians very hard today. It's the fact that this attack happened so brazenly, you know, in a place where people were just doing their ordinary shopping just before Shabbat, just before that holy day of the week. So it has hit everyone here very hard, not just to the Jewish community, and this is why we've seen so many people come out in solidarity, including President Hollande, together with the Israeli prime minister.
TAPPER: You're looking right now at live pictures from inside the Grand Synagogue in Paris, the synagogue that was forced to close its doors on Friday, not hold Shabbat services for the first time since World War II because of the terrorist attack at the kosher supermarket on Friday. Many stores in that neighborhood and schools were shut down out of fear of other terrorist acts against the Jews of France. And here we see people preparing for the arrival of French President Francois Hollande and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at the Grand Synagogue.
Christiane, Hollande and Netanyahu are -- they are allies, I suppose, in a traditional sense, but they are not buddies. France, in fact, recently took an action when it came to the Palestinians that Israel was very much opposed to.
AMANPOUR: Well, it did indeed. Like many European countries, there are symbolic recognitions of the Palestinian state. Whether it's in the British Parliament, whether France, Spain, (INAUDIBLE) countries, the E.U. have decided to do that. That goes against the Israeli grain (ph), obviously. But, today, it's a different situation. Today there's been a direct, frontal attack on Jews here in France and the French president, the Israeli prime minister, who's been invited here to stand united in solidarity with what happened here, they have decided to make this visit to the Grand Synagogue.
Now, at the same time as this attack has sent such shutters through the Jewish community, it has also knocked the government for a loop as well because there have been so many of these attacks on Jewish targets and Jewish people that over the last several months there's been many reports of Jews moving to Israel. And to that end, the Israeli prime minister said even today that Israel is your home and your refuge. And to that end, the prime minister of France, Manuel Valls, has said, Jews must be able to stay here. France is not France without French Jews. And, again, the "I am Charlie" refrain that has been shouted loud and clear for many days has been expanded by the prime minister to include "I am Jew" as well. We are all French together. So (INAUDIBLE).
TAPPER: "Je suis juif." Yes.
AMANPOUR: Very, very important.
TAPPER: Let's go right now to outside the Grand Synagogue of Paris, where this event is taking place, where Arwa Damon is keeping tabs on the event.
Arwa, what can you tell us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE). OK. And you can start talking when I hand it to you.
ARWA DAMON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, when do I stop?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).
DAMON: Security has been fairly tight. We saw that especially as we were trying to get here. There were also large crowds of the faithful really packing into the Grand Synagogue behind us, waiting for a number of those dignitaries to show up. We did see the vehicles belonging to the Israeli ambassador to France arriving. We also saw former President Nicolas Sarkozy coming in to cheers. One woman screaming out "we love you." This also very much continuing in that theme of ongoing defiance despite the potential for a security threat. People have not been hesitating to come down to this area.
These attacks, horrific of course, but also really underscoring not just the unity that we saw today, but potentially the deep divisions that France and the entire world need to begin to deal with. A lot of people saying that at this stage, this is very much a wakeup call, and that as a global community, we should look at what is happening here in France, the unity that we have been seeing throughout the entire day, and really try to find the momentum from that to move forward, to bring about an end to religious hatreds, to bring about an end to the type of violence that we saw taking place here over the last three days, the type of violence that extremist organizations like ISIS have been bringing, not just to Syria and Iraq, but to other regions around the world.
This is most certainly a very difficult time for France, for the Jewish community here, experiencing a significant rise in anti- Semitism, around double the number of Jews leaving France for Israel in 2014, compared to 2013. But alongside that a message from a lot of French saying to their Jewish brethren, no, don't go. A lot of what gives France its uniqueness is the diversity of its population.
Of course, the tensions, the concerns, not just confined to the Jewish community, but Muslims that we have been speaking to expressing those concerns about the potential for growing divisions between them and non-Muslim members of the French community. Most certainly the message throughout the entire day, as you have been reporting, one of unity. But at the same time, a lot of people saying we really need to look at what has taken place here in France over these last few days, learn from it and try to come together in a cohesive way to ensure that no one suffers this type of violence again.
TAPPER: Arwa Damon, thank you so much.
And, Christiane, Arwa raises an important point, which is, before Friday, Jews in this country felt besiege, felt attacked and, in fact, Jews leaving France to move to Israel have increased so much. I think France shot up on the emigration list in Israel to the top of the list where new Israelis were coming from because they had felt so attacked, so at risk for their lives.
We heard from Simone (ph) earlier who talked very openly about her fears for her children. It is one of the reasons why this visit of Francois Hollande and Benjamin Netanyahu to the Grand Synagogue is so important.
We're told right now that Hollande is on his way and should at attending any minute. But, you know, simultaneously, Christiane, as you noted and others have noted, it's not just the Jewish community here that feels under siege. The immigrant community, including Muslims, feel attacked as well. There is a far right group of extremists that have attacked innocent, peace loving Muslims as well.
AMANPOUR: Well, that's -- that's very true. And as we continue to look at these pictures outside the Grand Synagogue, as you said, we've got word that the president has left the Elysee Palace. Presumably he's with the Israeli prime minister, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Here he is. He is getting out of his car.
TAPPER: Francois Hollande, yes.
AMANPOUR: The president arrived slightly earlier than we had expected. And there he is. We thought -- we think that he has invited the Israeli prime minister as well, or that the Israeli prime minister is making his own visit to the synagogue.
And, indeed, to perhaps some of the families who lost their loved ones in the attack.
