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Dr. Drew
A 12-Month-Old Plays With A Handgun As Her Mom`s Boyfriend Seems To Egg The Baby On; Some College Men Admit They Would Rape Women If They Could Get Away With It; A 5-Year-Old Girl Thrown Off A Bridge By Her Father To Her Death
Aired January 12, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDETAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a 12-month-old plays with a handgun as her mom`s boyfriend seems to egg the baby on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL BARNES, 19-YEAR-OLD LIVE-IN PARTNER OF THE MOTHER OF THE 1- YEAR-OLD TODDLER: Say bang. Shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED INFANT SPEAKER: Bang bang.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): And records video of it on his cell phone.
Plus, some college men admit they would rape women if they could get away with it. Let us get started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Good evening. I am here with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. And coming up, a 5-year-old girl thrown off a bridge by her father to her
death.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HLN CO-HOST: I know. Terrible.
PINSKY: It is terrible. Father did it. Picks her out of the car, tossed her over the railing into the Tampa Bay, but we are not going to
start with that story. We have first a 1-year-old girl taught to shoot a pistol, apparently, by her mother -- young mother. And, the mom`s 19-year-
old live-in boyfriend records it on a cell phone video. Watch, listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
MICHAEL BARNES, 19-YEAR-OLD LIVE-IN PARTNER OF THE MOTHER OF THE 1- YEAR-OLD TODDLER: Pow. Pow, pow, pow.
UNDENTIFIED 1-YEAR-OLD TODDLER: Pow, pow.
BARNES: Say pow.
UNDENTIFIED 1-YEAR-OLD TODDLER: Pow.
BARNES: Say pow, pow.
UNDENTIFIED 1-YEAR-OLD TODDLER: Pa-pa.
TONI WILSON, MOTHER OF THE 1-YEAR-OLD TODDLER: Bang, bang.
BARNES: Bang. Say bang. Shoot.
UNDENTIFIED 1-YEAR-OLD TODDLER: Bang, bang.
BARNES: Shoot. Bang. Bang. Shoot that thing, fat baby. Pow. Pow, pow, pow.
UNDENTIFIED 1-YEAR-OLD TODDLER: Pow, pow.
BARNES: Say pow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Disturbing. I am joined by Vanessa Barnett, Hiphollywood.com, Loni Coombs, author of "You`re Perfect And Other Lies
Parents tell." She is also an attorney and Evy Pompouras, Law Enforcement Analyst, former special agent secret service. Sam, what are the charges
against -- is it against both of them?
SCHACHER: Yes. OK. So, first of all that is a 40 caliber handgun in that video, Dr. Drew. You see the baby also placed the muzzle of the gun
in his mouth. So, the mother, 22 years old, her name is Toni Wilson. And, then her 19-year-old boyfriend, Michael Barnes, they are charged with child
neglect for letting the baby play with the gun as well as criminal recklessness.
But, there is more, Dr. Drew. So, the reason why this all came to light is because the boyfriend, who was wanted for armed robbery, he tried
to sell a gun to an undercover officer. So, he got busted. And, when they were trying to find evidence of the sale, that is when they found this cell
phone video.
PINSKY: Wow. Police also say the baby`s mother had lied twice -- at least twice. First denied knowing her boyfriend had a gun at the time of
the video. Then when they confronted her with video, it is evident she said this is just a pellet gun. Evy, should it matter what kind of gun it
is? Who cares? This is just disgusting.
EVY POMPOURAS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, it does not matter what gun it is, any gun, even if it is a pellet gun. And, the fact that the
baby is waving it, not just putting it in her mouth, she is waving it at the boyfriend. She is waving it at the father. This is how we have
accidental discharges.
People wonder how these things happen. This is why these things happen, because people that should not have weapons have access to weapons.
This is by far one of the most egregious things I have seen, especially it is a 1-year-old. You wonder what are people thinking sometimes? This is
your child.
PINSKY: Loni, I just sit in disbelief at that video. I cannot stop looking at it. I cannot believe -- This guy is an armed robber.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Yes.
PINSKY: Just shocking. He is a guy that thinks drugs are pretty cool.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: The mom is in denial and lying about it. They are both teen parents. And, Loni, before you comment, Sam, there are other kids in the
house, too, are there not?
SCHACHER: There are, Dr. Drew. OK. So, he -- Michael Barnes, he is not the father to this baby, but they do have twins, like one-month-old
newborn twins, the two of them.
PINSKY: But, hang on. I thought the twins are like from some other mom. They are his but not hers. That baby is hers but not his. Loni,
forget the guns. They are menace to society.
COOMBS: Yes. Some people should not have guns. Some people should not have babies.
SCHACHER: Right.
COOMBS: And, these two people are people who should not be having children.
PINSKY: Thank you. Should not have either.
COOMBS: They are children themselves.
PINSKY: Should not have either.
COOMBS: Exactly. Mixing them is just -- it is the most dangerous situation ever. Look, these kids, they are kids. Mentally they are kids.
And, you can look at their Facebook page. You can look at their lives --
PINSKY: Did you get any service to kids.
COOMBS: Yes. Well, you are right because they are 22 and 19. However, if you had to defend them, which would be horrible thing to do;
but if had you had to, you would say, look, their brains are not developed. This father is acting like that gun is like a video game or a play gun.
I mean, it is like he is, "Hey, I just got a cool little toy for you. Go ahead and pretend like you are shooting a gun." Instead of recognizing
it is a deadly weapon, when he is teaching his little child there is something that is so dangerous. Like Evy said, somebody could end up being
killed so easily with that gun in the house. So, they should not be having children much less having guns in the house.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes, Vanessa. You heard Loni not Anahita giving a defense that the brain was not developed that I saw you recoil.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: No. These brains are very much developed. These are people that can go off and fight in war. They are
allowed to consume alcohol. They can do -- the girl is. They can do numerous things in society. And, now, they are charged with raising kids
and they are doing it horribly.
No, I am not giving them a pass. They are not mentally stunted. They are not, "Oh, I wonder how her parents raised her." No, these are two
idiots that unfortunately have kids, and it baffles me how everyone in the world can see how stupid this is, but these two people cannot.
PINSKY: Well, is not that interesting.
BARNETT: And, it is upsetting because someone is going to get hurt.
PINSKY: Very deep insight there, Vanessa. It is part of the issue.
COOMBS: Yes. But, Vanessa -- right. That shows you while their brain is not fully developed --
PINSKY: That is right. That is right.
COOMBS: -- And the brain does not fully develop until they are 25. The fact that they think it is like a game, and they videotaped it shows
you that they --
PINSKY: Hold on. The brain`s frontal lobes --
SCHACHER: Here we go.
PINSKY: That frontal lobe gives you that insight. But, there is more than that going on, Evy. This part -- the sociopathic part seems to
be going and the aggression center is going on --
POMPOURAS: Dr. Drew -- Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: -- and the lack of empathy is profound.
BARNETT: They are old enough to know right and wrong.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Evy.
POMPOURAS: I am with Vanessa on this one. Dr. Drew, there are police departments that hire individuals at 18 years of age. You can go
into the military at that age. People know better to not to do these things.
BARNETT: Thank you.
POMPOURAS: These individuals, they should charge them with everything they have. And, any time you have a gun -- and this is just for everybody
out there who does own a gun. When you have a gun, I do not care if you think it is empty, if you know it is empty, you treat that gun as if it is
always loaded, always loaded, always loaded.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Now, I am going to give you two photos from the mom`s Facebook page that kind of flush out a little more who she is. They
represent many of her posts. Sexy selfies -- there she is. Baby pictures. She has 3,500 friends, Sam.
SCHACHER: Wow.
BARNETT: She does know.
PINSKY: But, hang on. Does anybody else -- when they see 3,500 friends, and somebody posting stuff like that, does anybody speculate that
something else might be going on with who those friends are?
COOMBS: I am sure they are very close friends. You know?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: But, I think they are mostly male.
COOMBS: Yes, right.
PINSKY: In fact, they are mostly male. And, maybe she is posting or encouraging, who knows what she is -- you know, where she is directing all
that traffic. And, what she is doing with all those pictures. I am just saying.
BARNETT: She is seeking attention.
SCHACHER: Exactly.
BARNETT: She is seeking attention. She is probably lacking something inside. Look, I do not know. I am not a doctor. I cannot
diagnosed. What I am appalled at is that, does she not have HLN? Does she not watch "Dr. Drew On Call"? How many times do we have to discuss --
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Evidently not.
BARNETT: Stories like -- I mean this young boy was just waving a gun. And, look at him ended so tragically like how do we inform the idiotic
masses?
PINSKY: Well, it is a great point. I am sure she is going to not be listening to us in the future based on our condemnation. But, let me just
quickly look at who was living in the household. We had the mom, who is 22. She is the elder in the household.
SCHACHER: Great.
PINSKY: Boyfriend there, Michael is 19. A 1-year-old baby belongs to Toni, the mom. Then the twins as Sam said belongs to Michael, the father,
but to some other woman. The twins -- I guess all three children were reportedly placed in emergency care after that incident.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: So, Loni, there is -- I will let Vanessa go off on this one. There is another sort of -- should we call them victimizer. There is a
third adult that has abandoned the set of twins.
COOMBS: Yes. Yes. Yes. And, left them in this house with these two parents who cannot take care of the one child, much less the babies. I
mean I am so concerned. One-month-old twins?
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: I mean they have no chance of taking care of themselves.
PINSKY: No.
COOMBS: Who in the world is making sure they have food much less anything else?
PINSKY: Oh, my God. Let me tell you, I had triplets. Taking care of twins, Vanessa is no easy matter. But, you have at it.
BARNETT: I just -- how can we help them? I am just --
PINSKY: Good question.
BARNETT: And, I feel like a lot of times we know these people do not have the tools that they need to raise these kids.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: We are sick of babies having babies.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: And, these idiots -- like can their children be taken away now that he is -- like he is charged with possibly armed robbery. He is
selling guns.
SCHACHER: Right.
BARNETT: He is letting a 1-year-old hold his gun. How can we get these kids into a safe place and away from these people?
PINSKY: How can we help them? Or is it too late? Well, next, the mother was active on social media. You will see more of her posts and what
they reveal. And, later, this little girl, I will show you in a second, was alive when cops say her father threw her off a bridge. It is a tragic
story. We are on that and more after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONI WILSON: Bang, bang.
MICHAEL BARNES: Bang. Say bang. Shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED 1-YEAR-OLD TODDLER: Bang, bang.
BARNES: Shoot. Bang. Bang.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SGT. JASON CULLUM, EVANSVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: When we try to do all the things we do to encourage these kids to be good members of our
community and you see somebody working that hard against it, it just makes you wonder how many other children maybe living in this type situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Indeed. We are back with Sam, and our behavior bureau. Wendy Walsh, Psychologist, author of "30-Day Love Detox." Leeann Tweeden,
host of the Tomboys` Podcast on Blog Talk Radio and Spirit, Psychotherapist.
We are talking about shocking cell phone video of a 1-year-old baby, apparently, being taught how to shoot a handgun, suck on the muzzle of the
handgun, disregard the safety issues around a handgun. And, this at the hands of her own mother and the mom`s delightful boyfriend. Wendy, I see
you sitting down with a head of steam. You have visceral reaction to the story.
(LAUGHING)
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: I certainly did. Why is he only charged with child neglect. This is child endangerment.
PINSKY: Yes.
WALSH: Children are supposed to be raised to be very, very afraid of guns. And, not to go near them if they ever see one. This child is being
acculturated to love and play with guns like they are a toy.
And, do not get me started about baby mamas and their boyfriend. You know, I told you the stat many times. The most dangerous place for a child
to live in America is in a home with a non-biologically related male, mommy`s boyfriend.
PINSKY: But, Wendy, how about the twins, the 1-month-old twins with the biological father without the mother? That seems like equally
disastrous situation. And, the dad -- the biological dad is the guy that thinks gun play for babies is cool.
WALSH: I know. It is just breaking my heart. I want to take all those babies to my home, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Well, there is an opportunity for you somewhere I think. The mom`s Facebook page is revealing. Leeann, you noticed a comment she posted
while she was still pregnant with this particular baby girl. He said, quote, "I do not regret my daughter. I just regret who it is by." That is
not this guy, it is another guy. "Thought it was love but it was not." This is an old story. This is a broken record for people that go for
abusive guys.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Exactly. Obviously, the girl was not making decisions that were good for her or even -- I mean sometimes
when I think about women that even know this and even said this after the fact, what were you thinking about before?
Before you got pregnant, did you think that maybe this guy is a guy that you want to have around for life? Does he have your back? Does he
treat you with respect? Do you think you can have a family going forward? No.
They just get pregnant, have a baby and think, "Oh, maybe it was not a good thing. I do not regret my daughter, but I do regret him." I mean
what does that say for the daughter`s future? Obviously, she is now with a boyfriend like Wendy said, who is very dangerous for that little girl.
Instead of the stuffed animals, instead of developmental toys, rattles, things that can help the child`s mind development --
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: -- she is being taught to handle a deadly weapon with obviously two people that probably should not have weapons at all. They
should not even have children. And, the baby is sticking it in their mouth.
As a gun owner and a gun shooter, you never handle a weapon and you never point it at anybody unless you are going to shoot them. And, you
always act like it is loaded whether there is a magazine or bullet not in the chamber at all, ever, ever, ever.
PINSKY: Spirit, I want you to pull it together a little for me. You are kind of smiling at some of this. Why?
SPIRIT CLANTON, PSYCHOTHERAPIST/T.V. HOST: Well, you know -- well, it is interesting because I am still reeling from all of the comments s that I
heard Wendy say earlier. I mean the whole thing about the baby mama this and the acculturation of children around guns, some of that stuff is really
disturbing to me.
PINSKY: Why? Why?
WALSH: Why?
CLANTON: I agree that it is -- because I agree that what is happening here is dangerous. And, this is not the first time that I have
seen this unfortunately, especially on Facebook. You have all of these videos and all of these pictures with children holding guns, and young
parents holding guns to their heads. That is dangerous.
But, when you lump parents who are teaching their children about gun safety or parents who are raising their children around guns in order to be
comfortable and understand what that means, that is a totally different situation. And, then when you outcast or discredit all women who have
boyfriends or second husbands who are not the biological father --
WALSH: I am just quoting the statistics, my dear.
CLANTON: You look all of those people together, it is scary and dangerous.
PINSKY: Well, but, Spirit, what about those stats that Wendy quotes frequently on this program, which is the most --
CLANTON: I have not heard a single stat tonight. What I heard was a lot of stereotyping and prejudgment.
PINSKY: Well -- no, no. Hold on.
WALSH: Well, I will tell you that the actual statistic is that children living in a home with a non-biologically related male have eight
times the rate of sex abuse, emotional abuse and physical abuse.
PINSKY: So, that is the data.
CLANTON: I love to see where you get the data from. I love to see where you get it from.
WALSH: That is out of the University of Virginia. I will get you that stats.
CLANTON: Yes. Please do.
PINSKY: Wendy, let us post that. Let us post that on our Facebook. Maybe you can even look it up during the next break.
WALSH: I will.
CLANTON: But, let us also remember about data. Simply because you quote a site, that does not make it true. We also know that data either
supported or refuted that is not a fact.
PINSKY: No. No. Let us point it out, not a site. I am with you. Let us put this --
TWEEDEN: How about we just talk about how stupid these two parents are and how they should not be parents and all those kids should be taken
away? And, both of them --
CLANTON: Now, that I agree with. But, let us not lump everybody together before we get dangerous.
TWEEDEN: Let us talk about the story.
PINSKY: Sam, let us talk about her Facebook page. Tell me more about it.
SCHACHER: Oh my Gosh, Dr. Drew. Her Facebook page is repetitive. Like you said, you see either posts of her with her baby, or which is
surprising, because she seems like a horrible mother or at least makes pretty poor choices. Or you see these photos of her dressing very sexy,
lots of selfies. But, I want to talk about the reaction online, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: OK.
SCHACHER: Because, it is really interesting that our viewers -- I love them --
PINSKY: I am seeing a pretty powerful one there --
SCHACHER: Yes. They are unanimously.
PINSKY: -- from Goaty.
SCHACHER: Yes, "What is wrong with people? Do you have sawdust for brains?" Unanimously, everybody agrees that these parents are a bunch of
dumbasses. So, again, Anna G., "Nothing surprises me anymore." Sarah B., "As a responsible gun owner this makes me sick. I will bet the gun was
illegal."
Carriewise, "Some people should not be parent." So, here is the thing. If everybody unanimously sees these parents as poor parents, why
the hell that these two lack the common sense?
CLANTON: Well, think about it. They are 22 and 19. So, they are fresh out of some parent`s house as well. So, you can only imagine what
their upbringing was, what they are modeling behavior.
PINSKY: Exactly. Yes. That is right. If you have a teen parent, you are more likely to be a teen parent.
TWEEDEN: And, obviously, this is only going to perpetuate that cycle, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Of course.
TWEEDEN: Because look at what they are teaching the 1-year-old.
PINSKY: And, Danine Manette is writing in here.
SCHACHER: Oh great!
PINSKY: "Did these two losers just fall out of the sky? Where are the grandparents, aunts, anybody who has common sense?" That is another
great point, extended family.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: But, if you twist it that way, Danine, you sort of start to feel sorry for these kids because as Spirit is saying, they are abandoned
by their own family of origin. They may have been abused in their own family system.
TWEEDEN: And, where is the mom of the twins? Is he like in jail?
PINSKY: I am with you. Wendy, where is that mom? That is the one I want to hear about.
WALSH: I do not know where that mom is. But, I do not understand how baby twins, just one-month-old do not have breasts near them.
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
WALSH: I am sorry.
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
PINSKY: All right. We will leave it at that.
CLANTON: Formula.
PINSKY: Next up, this father is accused of killing his little girl by tossing her off a bridge into the water below. We, apparently, may have
someone who knew him to give us a call in a few minutes.
And, later, some college men say they would rape women if they knew they can get away with it. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): How could you throw a child over a bridge?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: John Jonchuck knew his little girl could not swim when he threw her into the Tampa Bay.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: He was going 100 miles an hour when an officer saw him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): He deliberately pulled that child from the back seat, held her up and the officer had a clear view of
everything and threw her over the railing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE KERR, PHOEBE JONCHUCK`S MOTHER: I never would have guessed he would have done such a thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She is separated from Jonchuck shortly after phoebe`s birth and acknowledges knowing he suffered from bipolar
disorder. She believes the 25-year-old recently went off his medication.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): He is very sure that she was alive before she was thrown over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: We are back with Sam, Vanessa, Loni and Evy. That father is accused of throwing the 5-year-old daughter off a bridge and leaving her to
drown in Tampa bay. Sam, were there some warning signs?
SCHACHER: Oh, my God, Dr. Drew. Yes, there were warning signs. This story rips my heart out. So, the day before he met with his attorney. She
described him as delusional, rumbling.
She even said to the 911 operator when she called to report it that he was a nut. The attorney also called DCFS child abuse hotline. They
said his behavior did not legally meet the criteria to investigate it as child abuse.
PINSKY: Loni -- wait, wait, wait. We are going to keep that up there. But, Loni, how could he not -- an attorney saying that she is
concerned -- how can I hear back that DCFS that is not meeting legal criteria, when the attorney is the one calling.
COOMBS: Yes, I know. The attorney did the right thing in this case. I want to point that out --
PINSKY: Yes.
COOMBS: Because so many times we are pointing a finger at the attorney.
PINSKY: No. No. Listen, she did exactly the right thing.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: When somebody is in trouble, she call for help.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: That is exactly what you do.
COOMBS: That is right. In this case, it was a 5-year-old child, she called the police, she called DCFS and look, "This child is in danger. I
should have taken the child. You guys need to take the child. Go find him. This is where he is. He is having a psychotic break. You need to
get the child." I mean she could not have been clearer than that.
PINSKY: All right, Sam, keep reading -- what else do we have there?
SCHACHER: OK, so, then he went to the church as Loni just stated. And, he met with his priest or the priest at the church. The priest said
he claimed to be having a spiritual experience and felt tormented. He wanted to be baptized immediately. But, also the priest said that he did
not feel like that Jonchuck was a threat. Officers met with him and determined he was not dangerous.
PINSKY: Wow.
SCHACHER: But I have to say, Dr. Drew, after this happened, this department immediately implemented a new strategy, policy if you will, that
within four hours somebody from the Department of Families and Children would have to go there and evaluate this person.
PINSKY: Good. Good. That is a reasonable change. Hopefully, it is not too little too late for others. The father brought in front of a
judge. Look at here. Here is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Would you like me to hire -- appoint an attorney to represent you?
JOHN JONCHUCK, FATHER OF THE 5-YEAR-OLD CHILD BEING THROWN OFF THE BRIDGE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Are you sure?
JONCHUCK: I want to leave it in the hands of God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Would you like someone standing next to you as you are standing trial?
JONCHUCK: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: As an attorney?
JONCHUCK: That is pure and good, not evil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, Evy, this is so sick. I hope God does what he needs to do with this guy.
POMPOURAS: Yes. You know what concerns me is with child protective services, actually, if you look into the data, this particular child
protective services has last year they had an exorbitant amount of high death for children. The governor of the state of Florida appointed a new
head for child protective services because they were having so many problems.
The other thing, this was the sixth time within a 30-month period that they have called child protective services for this individual, for
this child. This is where the system sometimes, Dr. Drew, fails us. This is one of the organizations that we have to make sure works.
PINSKY: Yes.
POMPOURAS: Children are the most vulnerable victims out there.
PINSKY: And, not only work but it is not overburdened. Vanessa, what are your thoughts on this one. You are the one that sort of straddled --
we have been making you sophisticated about mental illness -- what do you say about this case?
BARNETT: You know, I do want to say that it was documented I believe that he did have issues with bipolar and other issues that the mother of
the child brought up. But, at the end of the day, when you are not a mental health professional, I do not understand as a mother how you say,
"Oh well I deemed him to be OK to take care of my child." You do not understand the disease. You do not understand what happens.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: And, if something does not feel right, you have to play it better safe than sorry. There is no way that this young child should have
died. The mother I feel like she saw red flags. The authorities are called and everyone is so sick of being -- or so scared of being sued or
going too far, "Oh, I do not want to get in trouble." Why do not we protect these children`s lives first and deal with all the BS later? This
never should have happened.
PINSKY: Do you want to respond to that?
POMPOURAS: You know what is interesting, Vanessa? The mother actually had been abused by the father. There was domestic violence
issues. He had abused her. So, that is interesting that she thought, I never thought he would hurt my child and yet he is slapping her around.
SCHACHER: And his own mother. And, his own mother he abused.
POMPOURAS: Yes.
PINSKY: But, listen, Loni, I will let you comment in just a second, but we are going to speak to a woman in a few minutes who had seen this
couple, maybe can give us insight. I think I am hearing that the mom had like severe medical problems.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: And may have been incapacitated by this.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: But, Loni, so, we have a guy with a criminal history, domestic violence. He allegedly threw the daughter off a bridge right in
front of a police officer and he does not want an attorney. Is there going to be much trouble for the prosecution in this case?
COOMBS: Well, you know, it is interesting the prosecutors are just seeking first-degree murder, which means they are going to say that it is
premeditated. But, look, it is interesting mix of witnesses. You have the attorney who is saying, he is in the middle of a psychotic break. He is
crazy. He is talking about God. He does not know what he is doing.
Then you have the police officers and the priest who go and specifically do an evaluation and say, "You know what? He seems fine. He
seems rational. He is taking care of the child. The child looks fine. She is in good health. She is clean. She is happy."
So, it is like, was he a good parent? Was he a bad parent? And, I have to say something. There is something going on with the mother. The
father, actually, had custody of the child. The mother had not seen the child since Christmas Day. So he had been actually fighting for custody.
We do not know if he was having custody taken away, but he was working with an attorney. He was working with his priest. So, he had
people he was getting support from trying to maintain this parental right and maintaining this relationship with the child.
PINSKY: But, Loni, let me -- before we go to Evy, let me just ask this. Why cannot we force people if they have delicate medical and mental
illness to be properly followed up medically. This guy refused to take his medications. He was not being properly followed up.
BARNETT: Exactly.
PINSKY: Why cannot you demand that if you want custody, we need to see somebody who has assessment skills that you are -- You are nodding yes,
Evy. Do you agree, yes?
POMPOURAS: Yes, I do agree. And, you know what is interesting, though? Although, we are saying he has mental illness, what I find
interesting is that when police went to interview him, he was able to remain lucid and conceal the fact that he was having any issues.
PINSKY: Vanessa?
BARNETT: But is not that one of the characteristics of being bipolar? They described it often as a Jekyll and Hyde situation. So, what like I
said before, when you do not know the disease, how are you an authority to determine --
PINSKY: That is my point.
BARNETT: -- that this man can have her child?
PINSKY: Vanessa, you are making my point, which people who are skilled in assessing these things should be on top of these people
constantly. I say DCFS is where I put the blame. And, I say our system is where I put the blame because it is not properly structured to be able to
prevent this kind of tragedy. That is why we are talking about this case.
Now, next up, police were warned about the father. You will hear from a woman who saw him unraveling. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): He deliberately pulled that child from the back seat, held her up and the officer had a clear view of
everything and threw her over the railing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE KERR: He was definitely a Jekyll and Hyde. He was a demon. I felt that like a devil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FATHER BILL SWENGOS, CHURCH PRIEST: His mind was racing in a lot of different directions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): I think he is a jealous person that could not live without her, the mother, and this was the end result.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and our behavior bureau, Wendy, Leeann, and Spirit. We were talking about the 25-year-old father accused of murdering
his 5-year-old daughter, having thrown her off a bridge into the Tampa Bay.
Wendy, it is clear to me this was a psychotic episode. There is no doubt about it. But, it is too little too late, too much has gone under
the bridge, as it were, to even in any way stand up for this guy`s rights. He should have been held long before this.
WALSH: He should have been. And, Dr. Drew, I wish the Department of Children Services had more money to really crack down on this. I mean the
truth is, we do not spend our money in American protecting kids. Kids do not have voter`s right. So, they are spread so thin that it is just really
hard to save every child. And, it is heartbreaking.
PINSKY: The attorney who warned the police and DCFS that we were talking about in the last block, she had said that the guy was unstable,
had this to say. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENEVIEVE TORRES, REPORTED FATHER`S STRANGE BEHAVIOR: Yes, I mean she was right here yesterday drawing pictures downstairs. Somehow -- and I am
not pointing fingers, but Somehow the system failed Phoebe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That Genevieve Torres, Leeann, is my hero.
TWEEDEN: Yes.
PINSKY: She is the one in this whole story that you -- gives me hope that maybe we will start to solve these problems.
TWEEDEN: You know, it makes me emotional. You know, I have a child, too. And, everybody that is a parent -- that is the first time I have seen
her video. I only read her transcript. And, this woman is going to live with this forever, because when she called 911, the last thing she kept
saying, Dr. Drew, I should have kept her here. I should have kept her here.
But, she told them exactly where they went. He went to the church to pick her up from daycare and to talk to a pries. And, even when the cops
went there, the priest said, "No, I think he is just fine. He is not going to hurt himself or anybody else." It fell through the cracks so many
times, Dr. Drew. Who do we blame? You almost have to blame everybody.
PINSKY: Spirit, what do you think? Do you agree this woman did everything she possibly could and that is that?
CLANTON: Without a doubt. Without a doubt. But, the problem here is as we have heard, the system is not set up to deal with mental illness.
There is just not enough information. There is not enough education.
And, I cannot tell you, Dr. Drew, how many I have sat in courtrooms where there has been a documented diagnosis and still that parent is
allowed to interact with that child or their children, whether they have custody or unsupervised visitation --
PINSKY: Sam.
CLANTON: -- Because until something happens then they are allowed to do that.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: I wanted to comment on the mother situation, because I know that there was some talk on the previous block, Dr. Drew. The mother,
according to John, the father, he convinced the judge to allow him to have parental rights because of the fact that he said that the mother was
abusing alcohol, drugs. She was violent with him according to him. And as well as cut him with a box cutter.
PINSKY: OK.
SCHACHER: And, that is why he had the parental rights.
PINSKY: All right, so, we cannot confirm anything about the mom. We do not know anything about the actuality of her story. But, on the phone I
have Christine Franz-Faba. She knew both Phoebe, who is the young girl who died, both of the parents. Christine, did you ever have any concern about
John?
CHRISTINE FRANZ-FABA, KNOWS PHOEBE PARENTS: I first met John in 2008. And, when I met him, he was thinner and he was very happy and outgoing and
just a pretty round about normal guy. I was really happy for Michelle.
Over the course of the years, I have seen him decline in his mental health state. I saw him in 2010, Phoebe was about 10 months old and my
oldest son was just born. And, they had come over to visit. He was just very manic and just over the top.
But over the next several years after that, he would go from very happy and manic and over the top to very depressed and kind of angry, just
very vindictive. And, I saw him last about a year ago and that is how he was then.
PINSKY: And, you keep using the world manic. Was he known to be bipolar?
FRANZ-FABA: I knew he was bipolar sometime around 2010 when Phoebe was just a couple months old. He had come over, like I said, to see my son
who just got home from the hospital and Michelle and Phoebe. He had gained a significant amount of weight. He said it was because of his meds. And,
then it was Michelle confirmed it was -- he was bipolar.
PINSKY: Sam.
FRANZ-FABA: And, he was on some kind of medication.
SCHACHER: Christine, you mentioned that he was really vindictive and angry. Can you give us anything that you witnessed that made you come to
that conclusion?
PINSKY: And, let me just say also, and sort of give us in addition, we know he has mental illness, OK, but was there a psychological component
here as well that made him mistreat Michelle?
FRANZ-FABA: I never saw him mistreat Michelle. But, I knew that was unfolding. The last one -- the last time I talked to Michelle, he had been
sent to jail. He was in jail for a number of days on domestic issues. He had hit her. And, I told her I was very glad that she was getting away
from him. In terms of -- I am sorry. I forget the second question.
PINSKY: It is OK. I think you flushed that a little bit.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: She is asking how you knew there was vindictiveness and aggression and what not. So, Christine, listen, I thank you for joining
us. And, it is just a sad, sad story. I mean, hopefully, locally the services can be beefed up, maybe that attorney that was so emotional in
that little piece can perhaps exert some influence or create motivation to change things. And, I have also have to say that HLN cannot confirm any of
the allegations that have been made by Christine. Leeann do you want to make a comment there?
TWEEDEN: No. I just I wanted to ask Christine if she ever thought that seeing him with Phoebe if she was ever concerned for Phoebe`s well-
being. I mean if he would hit the mom and go to jail --
PINSKY: Well, that is enough. Is in it?
TWEEDEN: Well, of course.
PINSKY: Is in that enough you to be concerned about phoebe? Wendy, you are kind of giving annoying nod on that one.
WALSH: Yes. When it comes on --
CLANTON: This is the same argument though. We have to make sure that we remember though, that there are plenty of parents out here who are
living with mental health disorders who do not harm their children.
PINSKY: Yes. Listen, not only that --
CLANTON: We have to say that.
PINSKY: Yes. Spirit, I am so glad you said that, because there is two sides to this. One is, we understand what went down as related to
mental illness and then people say we are excusing the behavior. No, we are not excusing the behavior.
Once the behavior occurs, now the legal system is going to take over. What we are saying is long before this, there is no reason this had to
open. This guy was properly diagnosed. He was not properly supervised and the system failed. He had chronic illness.
And, the illness was not properly treated. He was allowed to not take his medication. Somebody died as a result. It could have been him.
It is not OK. If he wanted to have care of a child, he has got to follow through completely and comprehensively, so his illness does not
incapacitate him so he cannot take care of a child. It is pretty simple. Most people do not -- this never happens to them. These are treatable
brain disorders. And, this does not have to happen.
All right, guys. Next up, some college men say this. They say they would rape women if they could get away with it. That is right. More
after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Is the definition of rape getting lost in translation? Researchers asked a small group of men would you rape a
woman if there were no consequences? A few said yes. Then the question was changed. Would you force a woman into sex if you could get away with
it? A lot more men answered yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Leeann, Vanessa and welcome Jason Ellis, SiriusXM Radio host, author of "The Life." This is the story you are
tweeting about most tonight. The headlines say, quote, this is the headline, "One In Three College Men Would Rape A Woman If They Could Get
Away With It." That is the headline. But, let us talk about what this study, I have got here really sad. Sam, what did the researchers -- who
did the researchers interview first of all?
SCHACHER: OK, so the researchers in North Dakota, Dr. Drew, they talked to a very small sample of guys. OK? Just 73 males, 18 years or
older. All University students, more than 90 percent of them were white and they were all heterosexual with prior sexual experience.
PINSKY: And, what is it they were asked, exactly?
SCHACHER: Well, they had a similar questions, Dr. Drew. But, the language was different. So, for example, here is one question. Would you
act on intentions to force a woman into sexual intercourse if you were confident there would be no consequences? 31 percent said yes.
Similar question, different language. Would you act on intentions to rape a woman if you were confident that there would be no consequences?
Then the number decreased 13 percent said yes.
PINSKY: So, Jason, there are two issues. One is this issue of not understanding that forced sex and rape are the same thing. So, I want you
to address that first.
JASON ELLIS, SIRIUSXM RADIO HOST: The only way I can say it is maybe the question was misunderstood because the first question maybe you think
if a girl is not exactly -- she says no and then he goes play around a little and then she changed her mind, does that mean you kind of persuaded
her was that the question?
PINSKY: Is that where guys get confused?
ELLIS: I do not know. Why is the rape -- why is anyone saying that they would be OK if they did not get caught? Does anyone have a mother or
sister in this thing?
SCHACHER: Thank you. Thank you.
PINSKY: Actually, I was going to save you from that question and send it over to Vanessa. What about those 13 percent that say they would
flat out rape women if they could get away with it.
BARNETT: Absolutely disgusting. And, it just shows that there is just no compassion, there is a lack of respect for women. And, then it
goes even further than that. Because, I believe that for so long -- I can speak to the fact, when I went to college, for so long you think of rape as
this act from a stranger taking you down this dark alley and doing something very horrible to you, but you do not know this person.
And, that is what rape is. But the language needs to change, the definition needs to change. Rape is when a girl says no and then you
proceed to make it a yes. That is what rape is.
PINSKY: Well, no. Listen, there is more than that, Leeann, right? Even if you try to do that to somebody -- if you approach somebody who is
intoxicated in California, now you have --
TWEEDEN: She is not in the right mind to say yes or no.
PINSKY: To give consent. That is right.
TWEEDEN: Right. Exactly.
PINSKY: So, the problem -- are you hearing -- what I am hearing which is that the young people, even Vanessa still is unclear about this
issue.
BARNETT: About what?
PINSKY: Although, you are clear than you were in college. Now, I get it. But, then people -- a lot of people are unclear about this issue.
TWEEDEN: Well, I do not think it is that they are unclear about the issue. I think sometimes a guy thinks they can get away with sex, they are
going to be like, "Well ,yeah, if I can get away with it." They are just being honest.
PINSKY: Well, hold on. Hold on. Wait. Wait. Jason, is that the issue. The guys are just saying, "If I had the ring of Gyges then I can
turn the ring and become invisible, I would do anything?"
ELLIS: I really hope that is not what they are trying to say. I was more thinking of getting away with it -- like if a girl -- you guys meet --
girl has been drinking and then we hook up. What about if I have been drinking? Did she rape me?
PINSKY: No.
ELLIS: I do not understand.
PINSKY: It is not the law.
ELLIS: Like girl sometimes you change your behind halfway through something. I mean I could see how a kid might answer that in a way he did
not think he was actually forcing himself on a woman. But, if he understood the question correctly, then -- I think he is lying to show off
to -- I do not get why you would say it.
PINSKY: Hang on. I want to go to Sam. She is thinking hard about this. What are you thinking?
SCHACHER: I just cannot imagine, Dr. Drew, that one in three men out there -- there is a lot of great men out there. But, I do know the
statistics on college campuses too and that it is very pervasive. But, I cannot imagine that one in three men would think it is OK to rape a woman
if they knew that they could get away with it. I think that this study --
ELLIS: Right.
BARNETT:
PINSKY: Listen, Plateau said it a long time ago, if the guy -- if there was a ring that would make you invisible, if humans would do some
horrible stuff. That is what they are asking about.
BARNETT: I also think they rape or forced sex is a victimless crime. I think that in their brain, these crazy men that think it is OK, they are
like, "Oh, sex is supposed to feel good. Sex is nice." Once they get into it, they will not mind it. I think they think of sex as something
pleasurable as we all do.
PINSKY: All right.
BARNETT: And, they think it is a victimless crime, because they are not thinking of the emotion.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. There is something -- well, hold on. Stop, everybody. I have to take a break. And, I want to remind our viewers that
if you would like more HLN, you can take us live wherever you go. You can get our HLN to go app. Please go download it now. It is available for
Apple products, Android devices. Go get it. Take us wherever you go. We are back with this panel after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Would you rape a woman if you would not get caught? In a small survey of college men, 13 percent said yes. When
asked if they could force a woman into sex if no one would find out, a lot more men said yes. Is the definition of rape getting lost in translation?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Leeann, Vanessa and Jason Ellis. A study, as we just heard, a small percentage of college men would rape a
woman if they knew they could get away with it. More said if they could force sex on a woman if there were no consequences, then even a larger
percentage said yes.
I am going to show you a comment from one of our Facebook participant. It is Tara. She says, "Let us not assume if worded the same
way women would not give the same result." Sam, you are saying yes?
SCHACHER: Well, yes, Dr. Drew. It is sexist to say that, you know, I am reading some of the comments as well. And, one of our viewers in
particular said that listen women can rape men, too. And, that does happen on college campuses as well. But, Dr. Drew, 75 dudes in an isolated area
is hardly a reputable number for a survey.
ELLIS: There should not be one that says that.
SCHACHER: I agree. I agree. But, it does not represent all of these guys out there.
BARNETT: Exactly.
PINSKY: The study was actually pretty well done. I got it right here. It was peer reviewed. It was published in a peer reviewed journal.
It was a small sample size. But, again, I am not a statistician. Sometimes small samples can tell you a lot.
And, it was a relatively homogenous population, meaning a localized population. I am sure it was not a national sample. But, Leeann, I think
Jason got the right attitude about this. I mean the fact that we are still having these conversations to anywhere in the country tells us a lot.
TWEEDEN: Agree. And, you know what, I go back to this a lot on this show, Dr. Drew. Parenting. Just sort of how you are brought up, how you
are raised, how you respect each other, how you respect yourself. That permeates your life for the rest of your life. I do not think -- I do not
know about you, guys, or anybody else --
PINSKY: Well, Leeann, I am going to interrupt you. I am going to say, Jason did not have a great experience with some of his parenting.
And, yet he has got a moral compass that tells him no one should feel like that.
ELLIS: That is because I was raised by a bunch of people. That is why I had to learn the hard way. That is why I cannot believe in this
society, this day and age -- racist is very obvious. Racist it is very wrong, for some reason -- I do not understand how football teams, you can
allow anybody to be raped and not think how catastrophic it is.
I am a guy, I am big guy. And, things have happened to me that I still have to deal with therapy and meditation. I am doing everything I
can to not explode because of what happened to me when I was a kid.
And, you are going to do this to these girls or girls are going to do it to guys and act like it ain`t that big of a deal, just to say in -- ask
the question, would I do it if I could get away with it, that person does not know what they are doing if they were to do that. They do not know.
TWEEDEN: Dr. Drew, Can I finish my statement? I just have one more thing to say.
(CROSSTALKS)
PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Leeann. Leeann.
TWEEDEN: I just want to say one more thing. I do not know, where it is cool at all. Because, if I was into a guy and he was into it for me,
Drew I would not get anything out of it. If I had to rape a guy to have sex with me, OK?
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: I do not know how guys get off getting on a girl that does not want anything to do with them. I do not get it.
SCHACHER: But, unfortunately, there is a rape culture that exists on college campuses. And, that is where I do agree that this study does bring
that to the forefront and underscores it. Because it becomes normative to party and get wasted and, guess what, there is a lot of coercion there.
And, a lot of people do not know what constitute consent or they should --
BARNETT: I think there should be education about what rape is.
PINSKY: Believe me.
BARNETT: Not a study. Not a study that -- of 70 boys that are all kind of similar. Like they are all white.
SCHACHER: I agree.
BARNETT: They are all 18 years old. It is kind of misleading and a little bit irresponsible setting you, guys, made.
PINSKY: You, guys, are being very pragmatic, but it makes me sad. I want to jump off what Jason said. The fact that people -- this business of
being invisible, being honest that you would do whatever you want. People need to do the right thing no matter what. It is not that the universal
imperative, you do the right thing even if somebody does not see you doing it.
TWEEDEN: Right. Exactly. That is what is good for.
PINSKY: And, I am telling you, we have lost track of that. Get whatever you can, man, for whatever makes you feel good or gets you what
you need. And, Jason, that is a really damning incitement.
ELLIS: It is no way to live in. These kids are going to have kids. What are they teaching their kids? Is anybody teaching our children the
severity of when you molest a child or a teenager? You think some girl that gets molested when she is 17 or 18 just walks out of there and it is
just another day and no big deal? Her life is altered for the rest of her life.
PINSKY: Of course she is. Now, listen, you can continue to ring in on our hlntv.com or our Facebook page. We have a poll of both places. We
are asking if you are shocked at the results of a study that find some college men would force sex and/or rape on a woman if they could get away
with it. Right now, this is actually shocking to me. Vanessa, 61 percent are not shocked.
BARNETT: It just speaks to -- it is that thought of, it does not matter if you do not get caught. Unfortunately.
PINSKY: OK, which is sad. All right, thank you, panel.
ELLIS: Wait until it happens to you.
PINSKY: That is right. All right, I have a special show tomorrow. We have invited Lisa Vanderpump to join us as a celebrity co-host. She is
bringing -- there is some special guests joining us in addition. Our panelists, of course, will be here. Sam will be here. Please DVR us, if
you cannot see the show live, you will be able to watch it. "Forensic Files" is up next.
END
