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Quest Means Business

France Ramps Up Security; Centcom Twitter Account Hacked; EU Leaders Target Terror Online; French Police Say Six Terror Cell Members at Large; Boko Haram Massacre 2,000 in Baga, Nigeria

Aired January 12, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE CLOSING BELL)

RICHARD QUEST, HOST: Closing bell is ringing, start of a new week. The Dow is off -- ah, about 90-odd points. It's a quiet sort of trading

session. It's Ritchie Brothers Auctioneering that is closing the bell. Ooh, he only gave one, but he seems to be the sort of man who knows how to

hit the hammer. And it's the hammer for Monday the 12th of January.

Tonight, thousands of troops are being deployed in Paris as the French government remains on high terror alert.

The battle moves online. ISIS supporters have taken down US military's Twitter page.

And in the wake of the attacks, Hungary's prime minister says immigration must be stopped. We'll speak to his head of communications

about what the prime minister really meant.

I'm Richard Quest. I mean business.

Good evening. A country that's on high alert tonight. France is expanding the hunt for the co-conspirators of the terrorists behind the

attacks that killed 17 people. Extra security across France as thousands of soldiers and police are being deployed.

There's new video of the female suspect, who's still at large. Surveillance cameras showing her at passport control at Istanbul's airport.

And the White House is now admitting the US has made a mistake when it didn't send a more senior representative than the US ambassador to Paris to

the unity rally in the French capital on Sunday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Some have asked whether or not the United States should have sent someone with a higher profile than

the ambassador to France, and I think it's fair to say that we should have sent someone with a higher profile to be there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: We'll talk more about all of these issues during the course of our program tonight. First, though, the most pressing is the security

issue, and Isa Soares is in Paris. So, more troops, more police, and they still believe there are some co-conspirators at large.

ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Indeed. Good evening, Richard, from the 7th Arrondissement in Paris. It's really defense area,

here. Many defense officers here.

Yesterday, like you said, was a day of unity, a day of really getting together and standing up, solidarity. Today, it seems, is a day of action,

Richard. In the last couple of hours, we have heard from both the Defense Ministry and the prime minister of France, Manuel Valls, really showing

just how serious this terror threat is, they're saying, and just how serious they need to ratchet up security.

Let me break down the numbers for you so you get a sense how serious they are -- how seriously they are taking this: 10,000 soldiers -- these

are not police officers, these are soldiers -- will be deployed throughout the country, not just here in Paris, but throughout the country. They'll

be in place by tomorrow, Richard. By Wednesday, there'll be an additional 500. Do the math -- 10,500.

(EMERGENCY VEHICLE SIREN)

SOARES: On top of that, there will also be police officers throughout the country. You can hear the sirens already, people clearly on edge still

in the city. So, going back, police officers spread out in sensitive areas. These will be synagogues, there'll be train stations. Most of

these police officers will be protecting some 717 Jewish schools there in France.

Already we have heard from our senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen, who's been to the -- to one of the areas where the police will be

placed, and he's saying that people are on edge, Richard. People are on edge.

QUEST: Yes.

SOARES: And many want to go back to Israel. So, just some of the measures that we're seeing today, Richard.

QUEST: Isa Soares in the French capital. And as Isa was referring to, the French prime minister, Manuel Valls, has told us the authorities

are doing everything in their power to dismantle what appears to be a terror network in France. The prime minister was speaking to Christiane

Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANUEL VALLS, PRIME MINISTER OF FRANCE (through translator): No doubt, there was complicity and networks and maybe finance also. I don't

really believe in the idea of the lone wolf. That was the case in Oslo some years ago, but that's different.

But I think that we will see some links, but the inquiry is only the beginning, and we need to go fast, I want to say, as the press and the

public have said to France, the threat is still there, and we have to be very careful that there is no reaction to what has happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUEST: You can see the full interview with the French prime minister, viewers in Europe, at the top of the hour, "Amanpour," it's at 10:00 PM

London, 23:00 in France.

And the country remains on high alert as it comes to terms. Christian Malard is an international diplomatic consultant. When we need to know

what is happening, Christian Malard is the man we turn to. Christian, let us take this -- we've got a lot --

CHRISTIAN MALARD, INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC CONSULTANT: Thank you, Richard, good evening.

QUEST: Good evening. Let's take this slowly, we've got a lot to get through. Firstly, the issue of this terror threat. Is there a feeling

tonight in Paris the French government, the authorities are on top of it?

MALARD: Yes. Right now, they're trying to control the whole situation, but they're trying, Richard, they're trying to modify their way

of tackling terrorism in this country.

Because once more, French public opinion, the majority of the French, my country fellows, feel that we have been for so many years closing the

eyes on all these Muslim fundamentalist networks which have been building up slowly but surely all around the country.

Because I know some people of our intelligence services who have been telling me, we closed the eyes, we have been neglectful. Too much lax-ism

during the last -- the left-wing and right-wing governments. So all of a sudden, everybody wakes up. It happened.

You were talking about he French prime minister, Mr. Valls. He is the first one who a week ago said France has never been threatened so much by

terrorism. And then came -- what happened is barbaric actions --

QUEST: Right.

MALARD: -- killing our colleagues, killing other people and policemen.

QUEST: How long, Christian, before a unity march in Paris dissolves into factional political fighting in domestic politics?

MALARD: Very good question, Richard. Right now, it's still unity. And let's put it this way: people start arguing about the fact that there

was so many things going wrong with our intelligence services, which could have prevented this barbaric actions committed by these two brothers, the

Kouachi brothers, and by this Coulibaly.

At the same time, there was definitely a failure -- everybody acknowledged that tonight here -- a failure in the cooperation between

intelligence services between France, European, and United States. So now, everybody is very aware of the fact that we have to build up a new

cooperation, trying to really tackle all these Muslim fundamentalist movements in France.

QUEST: Is this row, this disagreement, this whatever you want to call it about President Obama not attending or at least a more high-level

official from the United States, is it man-made?

MALARD: No, I would not say that. I think we know that we have good connection with America, good relationship. We are two strong allies.

It's not because we only had the Secretary of Justice from the United States that we are mad at the United States.

We are going to have in Washington on 18th of February this summit, very important summit against terrorism, and everybody will go and try to

work hand in hand.

Now, politically in France, you are alluding to this unity, Richard. It might break because definitely one way or the other you will have the

extreme right of Madame Marine Le Pen who starts saying, we have been the first to tell about the threat from the Muslim fundamentalists for years,

for months, whatever.

And here we are So, definitely there will be a kind of political break between the extreme right and the rest of the other parties.

QUEST: Finally, you're a Frenchman, Christian. You're living in Paris. Forget your diplomatic credentials. Give it to me from the heart.

Tonight, what's your gut feeling for how Paris feels?

MALARD: Well, people are scared. When you talk to people, they are scared. We had so many actions also against he Muslim community. And what

I have been struck by is the Jewish people I met on the one hand, the Muslim people I met on the other hand, they are scared. Because they say

we feel not protected.

Now that the French government announced that there will be more protection for the Jewish community in Paris and all the country and

they'll start protecting also the Muslim community, because all the Muslims are not terrorists, fortunately. But there is this -- people don't feel at

ease. They don't feel comfortable. And I'm afraid, Richard, it might last for a while, because we are still --

QUEST: Right.

MALARD: -- under big terrorist threat. There is no doubt about that.

QUEST: And we're in no doubt that we're glad that you're with us tonight. Thank you, sir, for joining us. Christian Malard joining us from

Paris.

European lawmakers have been calling for help in curbing terror that's online. ISIS sympathizers have been posting a series of chilling messages,

and of all places, they've managed to do it on a US military Twitter feed. It's QUEST MEANS BUSINESS.

(RINGS BELL)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Under attack in so many different ways. Now it's a cyber war between Islamic extremists in the West which has escalated. This was the

Twitter feed for the US Central Command earlier today, Centcom.

Hackers claiming to be ISIS sympathizers post a series of tweets revealing Pentagon documents as well as contact information for US military

personnel. CNN Money's Laurie Segall is following the story. Hang on. Hang on. So, first of all, they hack it.

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN MONEY TECH CORRESPONDENT: Right.

QUEST: Well, that's Twitter's problem, not so much Centcom's.

SEGALL: That's a very good observation, right? Because a lot of folks are saying, oh, the Pentagon was hacked. Well, the Pentagon wasn't

hacked. A Twitter account was hacked, a YouTube account, their YouTube account was definitely hacked as well. So, this wasn't something

sophisticated.

But this is embarrassing. This is embarrassing that something like their social media accounts, these guys could have easily gotten in it by

guessing a password. The password strength must not have been great, a phishing attack something like that.

But when you kind of take a step back and you look at the messages -- and we were accessing the Twitter profile before it got taken down, we were

able t screen-shot a lot of those tweets.

QUEST: Right.

SEGALL: I believe we have some we can show you. A Twitter picture inside what appears to be an army office saying, soldiers, we're coming,

watch your back, with a lot of information that appears to be very personal. Phone numbers of people, of -- different e-mail addresses --

QUEST: How did they get it?

SEGALL: -- to some people. But, now, that being said, when you look at these documents that were posted, this is -- this stuff could have been

out there publicly already. We should say that. But it isn't very difficult to hack into this. But it's the fear factor that we should

really talk about.

QUEST: Christian Malard in Paris -- you may not have just heard a second ago -- was talking about how people in Paris are feeling afraid.

SEGALL: Yes.

QUEST: Now, let's put this -- let's pull some strands together, if we may.

SEGALL: OK.

QUEST: You have Sony --

SEGALL: Yes.

QUEST: -- and all that happened there. You then have the threat. You then have this real violence --

SEGALL: Yes.

QUEST: Now you have this. What's the cumulative effect of all of this?

SEGALL: Fear. And at the end of the day, it's fear, right? Because these hackers, they also posted personal information on the same place

called Pay Spin (ph) that's essentially where the Sony hackers posted this information. And we saw all the damage, we were able to understand the

damage.

Now, you add that into this fear that there are these lone wolf attacks. Right now, you're looking on Pay Spin, this is what they said.

They're claiming they're ISIS, that we are coming, we are watching you.

And I think when you take a step back, the NYPD has an internal memo going out saying just be on higher security.

QUEST: But there's not much we can do about it. I mean, the authorities at the very highest levels have to deal with this. You and I -

-

SEGALL: Sure.

QUEST: -- short of changing our passwords. This is -- I'm trying to understand where this goes.

SEGALL: I think it's an interesting question, right? A lot of people in France are trying to scrub their social media for personal information

about themselves that they could somehow be a target for ISIS.

Because the one thing we've learned about ISIS is ISIS is very good at social media. They're very good at digging on people and understanding

different types of people. So you can see with this, this account being taken over, people are nervous.

I got on the phone and I called up some of these people whose personal information was out there, and I was the one telling them that their

personal information is out there --

QUEST: Right.

SEGALL: -- and you've got to bet if you're in the army and you're looking at ISIS as a threat, you don't want to be on a list associated with

ISIS, Richard.

QUEST: Thank you for joining us this evening. Thank you.

SEGALL: Good to see you.

QUEST: European leaders, with all of this in mind, are calling for help to curb the spread of terror online. Ministers from across the

European Union say Internet service providers, ISPs, should do more to report and take down radical material.

In a joint statement, they were determined, in their words, to ensure that the Internet is not abused. To this end, while safeguarding that it

remains in scrupulous observance of fundamental freedoms, a forum for free expression.

Jim Killock is with me, executive director of the Open Rights Group, who says using technology to block extremist content may prove ineffective.

But it may be the only thing we can do, Jim.

JIM KILLOCK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, OPEN RIGHTS GROUP: Well, it's pretty pathetic if that is all we can do, and that's how we think we're going to

sort out terrorism. If you want to get a hold of material, censorship never works. We know that. We know that when you censor something, people

want it more, they don't want it less.

So, they try and get it however they can. That's the problem. You can't assume that censorship is just going to solve your problems in this

kind of way.

QUEST: OK. If, then -- if that is your view, and we take the idea that, quote, "something must be done," what is it?

KILLOCK: Well, if you're looking for a solution to terrorism, then it's going to be a political answer. It's always political in the end.

Trying to suppress, trying to remove and ban, that isn't going to solve the problem.

You have to look at Iran and Iraq and you have to look at what's happening in Syria right now. And you have to say, if Iraq and Syria --

(CROSSTALK)

QUEST: Right, but hang on, hang on, hang on. I don't want us to go - -

KILLOCK: -- and chaos --

QUEST: -- I don't think -- Let me jump in, here.

KILLOCK: -- where some people die --

QUEST: Let me jump in here. I don't want to go down too much down the road of what happens in wider terrorism. In terms of just dealing with

the online threat and the sort of measures that governments should be -- or authorities should be thinking about, if censorship is not the one, what do

you prefer?

KILLOCK: There are limited amounts that you can do with the online space, because it is ultimately just a symptom of the wider problem. You

can't kind of -- separate these two things out.

And I think the problem we're seeing right now is that the politicians are looking at the online world and saying, well, this is something maybe

we can do something about. Maybe this is something where we can ban and increase surveillance.

And that will make it look -- look like we're doing something. Doesn't mean that they are doing something and they are trying to really

deal with terrorism. But it does mean that they can claim to. And I think that's the danger, here.

It's very easy to start banning things. It's very easy to say we'll put the whole population under surveillance and you need this because this

is the only way we can solve terrorism.

QUEST: All right.

KILLOCK: But it doesn't mean any of that's true.

QUEST: I need to -- forgive me, I need to interrupt you, Jim. I do thank you for joining us this evening, but we have some news, which I

really must get to urgently. There are now reports from the Associated Press, and the French police say up to six members of a terror cell are

still at large.

Now, I alluded to this in my conversation with Isa Soares a little while ago and, indeed, with Christian Malard. Officials are searching for

a car registered to a terror suspect, the one that they've been looking for, Hayat Boumeddiene.

Now, she is the associate of one of the terrorists, the one who took over the Kosher supermarket. She originally had believed to had been --

had got away, but now appears she may be in Syria having fled France much earlier.

Whatever it is, Hayat Boumeddiene, they are looking for her, and they now say that there may be up to five or six others. That's from the French

police. As the hour wears on, we'll bring you more details.

We've got to take this in the totality of what's happening in the world at the moment. Because while we were looking at Paris last week,

there was the most heinous, deadly massacre which took place in Nigeria. Boko Haram militants massacred as many as 2,000 people in a Nigerian town.

We'll be in the capital, in Abuja, after the break. This is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Nigeria is reeling from one of the deadliest massacres that Boko Haram has inflicted on the country. Now, this number is quite

extraordinary. As many as 2,000 people have been murdered by gunmen who sprayed bullets through the town of Baga on January the 3rd. Thousands

more fled. It's almost difficult to read this.

Some where drowned in Lake Chad whilst trying to escape. Others burned alive in their homes. And nine days later, militants are still

occupying the area, and bodies remain scattered in the bushes. Over the weekend, explosives, which have been strapped to children, detonated in two

marketplaces, killing dozens. Boko Haram is believed to be involved.

Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson joins me live from Abuja. Nic, we obviously were very much distracted by events in

Paris, but this -- this, sir, is -- this is massacring on an industrial scale.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is. And that is almost how the eyewitnesses who've managed to survive and get away

tell it. They say hundreds of Boko Haram turning up at the town of Baga in trucks and vans, heavy machine guns mounted on the back of some of the

trucks.

And driving in front of them, the Nigerian army soldiers from the outpost that was sort of the last bastion of government control in that

area. Driving the soldiers ahead of them. One witness talked about hiding out by his house in the hedgerow for three days, and when he finally

escaped, he thinks he saw about 3,000 bodies, 30,000 people driven from the town.

The army this afternoon, however, said look, we've got covert operations going on there with aerial surveillance, and we think only 150

people died, including soldiers. Now, they haven't released those aerial pictures to sort of back up their claims. But eyewitnesses are putting the

account much higher than what the army is saying.

We had talked to a soldier who was involved in the army cleanup operation, and he talked quite literally of prying his charred colleagues,

soldiers, out of their burnt-out vehicles, and it was such an experience for him, so horrible that he wasn't able to eat for several days

afterwards.

So, we haven't really got to the bottom of this yet, Richard, but by all accounts, the most --

(AUDIO GAP)

ROBERTSON: -- Boko Haram attack, overrunning a significant military outpost.

QUEST: All right, let's put this bluntly, Nic. Nigeria claims now it's the largest economy -- and it probably is -- in Africa. It says it's

made great changes in democracy, it's got oil revenue that's been hit, but it says it's dealing with the Boko Haram issue. So, I ask you, Nic, this

blows an entire hole through the Nigerian claim that they are handling the terrorist threat.

ROBERTSON: And it does, but this area, you can argue, is perhaps -- although it's economically important to the sort of agricultural fishing

level in the more remote northeastern parts, and it's regionally significant because it touches and affects Chad and Cameroon and Niger,

also, to the north, while it's significant there, you're not seeing it affect, yet, in a significant way the major revenue-generating cities and

infrastructure in the country, Richard.

QUEST: Finally, this child suicide bomber, 10 years old, what on Earth has happened there?

ROBERTSON: Just beyond horrific. And what's staggering is, we heard about this, that it happened on Saturday at a market. She was believed to

be perhaps as young as 10, according to eyewitness, maybe a little older. Unwittingly becomes a vehicle for Boko Haram's bomb. And they remotely

detonate her when she gets near to a security post in the middle of this busy market.

But then on Sunday, they do it again with two young girls this time in another town not far away, killing three people and the girls as well, of

course, and injuring 43 others. Beyond dastardly.

But what people are telling us is they think when Boko Haram attacked some of the smaller villages, they kill off some of the elder men and women

but round up some of the younger boys and girls, and they're using them in this way with these types of tactics. So, it's a whole new dimension.

They're trying, if you will, to out-ISIS ISIS, Richard.

QUEST: I just need to clarify one thing because of the way I phrased the question, Nic. I talked about child suicide bombers, which would imply

that they were doing it. From your last answer, you would be -- you're suggesting that basically they're corralled and sent in with bombs strapped

to them.

ROBERTSON: That is what everyone here believes. They don't believe these girls are going in and blowing themselves up. They're being remotely

detonated. They've had explosives strapped to them. They're poor -- the way people here understand it, poor, innocent victims caught up in Boko

Haram's horrendous crimes here, unwitting and unwilling human bombs, if you will, Richard.

QUEST: Nic Robertson -- I -- well, I say thank you in the wider sense for bringing this reporting tonight from Abuja.

Unfortunately, as we continue our conversation this evening, well, of course, we'll be back in Paris. The information about the terrorists who

carried out last week's attacks and the surveillance video showing the female suspect.

And now, in the last hour or so, the confirmation from the French authorities that they are looking for more members of a terror cell. Jim

Sciutto is in Paris. He'll be with us after the break. This is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Hello, I'm Richard Quest. As QUEST MEANS BUSINESS continues, we'll explore if the falling price of oil could have an impact on terrorist

funding in the Middle East.

We're going to speak to the Hungarian government spokesman after his prime minister said, and I quote, "Immigration must be stopped" in the wake

of the attacks.

But this is CNN, and on this network, the news always comes first.

Now some news to bring you that's happened in the last half hour - according to French reports from the Associated Press, the police in France

say up to six para-cell members are still at large. Officials are now searching for a car that's registered to the terror suspect Hayat

Boumeddiene. She is believed to be in Syria -- this according to a report from the Associated Press. France at the same time is deploying 18,000

soldiers and police, guarding against future terror attacks. Nearly 5,000 of them will protect Jewish schools. Seventy people were killed last week

in three days of violence and terror. All four victims of the Jewish grocery store siege will be buried in Israel on Tuesday.

An investigation's underway after the Twitter and YouTube accounts of U.S. Central Command were hacked. The series of unusual postings appeared

earlier on Monday showing ISIS propaganda. The accounts have been deactivated. Boko Haram militants are believed to be behind a sickening

escalation of the violence in Northern Nigeria. People say at least 20 people were killed and 18 injured when explosives strapped to a young girl

were detonated in a marketplace on Saturday.

Searchers have found both flight recorders from AirAsia 8501. The flight data has been recovered. The cockpit voice recorder's been located

in the debris and is still to be retrieved.

Cristiano Ronaldo has won FIFA's Golden Ball awarded to the world's best player. It's the third time the Real Madrid winger has won the prize

-- he took 33 percent of the vote, Lionel Messi came in second, a German goal keeper Manuel Neuer was third.

French investigators are sifting through the evidence obtained from the apartment rented by Amedy Coulibaly, the gunman alleged to have killed

a police woman and then four hostages at a kosher market. The police found ISIS flags, weapons and cash in the apartment. They hope the clues will

lead detectives to Coulibaly's partner and alleged accomplice, Hayat Boumeddiene who remains at large. Now in a video released on Sunday, the

gunman Amedy Coulibaly was seen declaring his allegiance to ISIS.

The terror group is funded at least in part by oil money. Now that's obtained through smuggling the oil money - smuggling the oil - through the

black market. It's thought to be earning them millions of dollars a week from the illicit trade. Now of course the price of oil has fallen

dramatically over the past few months - down some 50-odd percent. Brent crude fell 50 percent and it fell another 5 percent on Monday. Brent is

now just $46 a barrel. Those falling prices - this is almost perverse to be talking about a legitimate market in oil, the funding of terrorism and

the atrocity of ISIS.

But that's why we're talking about it with you tonight - to put this together because as the price falls, so it hurts the terrorist finances and

they have other sources of funding. U.S. airstrikes have also dented but not destroyed Islamic States' oil operations in Iraq and Syria. Let's

bring in Fawaz Gerges, professor of international relations at the London School of Economics. I mean, I had to give that almost health warning, but

it's true, isn't it? The falling price of oil that we talk about every night in a legitimate sense - would this be having an effect on ISIS'

ability to raise cash?

FAWAZ GERGES, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: I hate to disappoint you, Richard, I doubt it very much and I'll tell you why I don't think the

falling oil prices will affect the ability of ISIS to carry its war campaign against enemies near and far. Ironically, most oil-producing

state, Richard, as you will know rely heavily on petroleum. Between 70 and 90 percent of their income rely - I mean come - from oil. That's a fact.

While ISIS has a divers war economy. Oil is only one source of income -

QUEST: Right.

GERGES: -- it has multiple incomes. One, first - they have a taxation system in the areas they control. They control a state as big as

the United Kingdom, they control the lives of 55 million people, and they stringently enforce the taxation system. Secondly, they have a criminal

network that trades in cultural and art objects and brings in millions of dollars. Ransom money - it's not just foreign hostages, but local

hostages. Syrian and Iraqis bring in tens of millions of dollars. And guess what - since the American lap (ph) campaign, Richard, in June - ISIS

-

QUEST: Right.

GERGES: -- has been forced to tighten its belt. And most of the reports that we have, ISIS could fight basically for two more years based

on the resources they have and two years are indeed a long time as you know.

QUEST: This question of ISIS and its relationship - which previously it thought to be in bed with any al-Qaeda, the question of France. I need

you to just pull these strands together. Are we looking at a - sort of a - connection between these two organizations now?

GERGES: You know, Richard, there is a civil war taking place within the Jihadist tribe. On the one hand, you have ISIS which is one of the

most powerful Jihadist organization. It numbers between 17,032 fighters. On the other hand, you have a Nusra front and Nusra front is basically the

arm - the official arm of the al-Qaeda central - Osama bin Laden, Ayman al- Zawahiri - and you also have al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in Yemen which is basically appears to be either directly or indirectly responsible

for the attacks in Paris.

QUEST: But I need -

GERGES: So -

QUEST: -- I'm going to jump - I'm just going to jump in here because when we talk about these organizations, we tend to think - you know we're

talking of them as if they have full structure -- e-mails, the whole sort of panoply of a corporation. But is it - is it much more loose-limbed than

that? Is it much more shadowy meetings? How do they communicate? How do they put all these things together?

GERGES: I mean that's a very - you're asking really very critical questions. ISIS is a very high radical organization top down. Everything

comes from the top even though since the basically while the United States has declared war on ISIS, basically now you have a decentralized system

that the chief of ISIS, Abu Bakral-Baghdadi, who keeps a very tight control has basically empowered his lieutenants - the middle rank basically

officers and militants - to be in charge in various areas. He appointed every emir for every local regions or province.

QUEST: Right.

GERGES: But you're absolutely correct - it is when we talk about al- Qaeda and the Arabian Peninsula and Yemen, it's a very loose organization because the United States is waging all-out war against al-Qaeda and Yemen.

Again, the al-Qaeda - that parent organization - and that's why the question, your question, - to come back to your question - do we know for

sure if al-Qaeda and Yemen -- al-Qaeda and the Arabian Peninsula - directly ordered the two brothers to basically carry out the attacks in France - we

do not know. But all we know is that there's a connection between al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and the two brothers Cherif and Said. We also

know that the basically supermarket - kosher supermarket - killer also swore -

QUEST: Right.

GERGES: -- loyalty (ph) or Bay'ah to ISIS. That's all we know because we don't really have the information - credible information - to

establish whether the link was direct or indirect. What you have is that militants taking action on their own - listening to the -

QUEST: All right.

GERGES: -- messages and the You Tubes basically made by ISIS and the various al-Qaeda groups.

QUEST: Fascinating. A program like ourselves how we look at structures and (inaudible). Thank you, sir, for joining us and making

sense of it and guiding us through this tonight.

After all that we've talked about, it is perhaps somewhat of a relief to go back to our normal agenda and bring you some - the stuff that we'll

be more familiar with tonight. European - the markets - and just have a look at that, we don't need to spend too much time, except Athens. The

Greek shares led the way up by nearly 4 percent -- sharp fall last week. In Germany, Lufthansa was up 1.7 percent as a result of the falling oil

price. Lufty says the fuel bill will fall 13 percent this year. London - it's not on that chart but you can see today markets were all up.

As for the U.S. market, well they started off down. There was a half- hearted attempt at a bit of a rally. Chevron an Exxon were down sharply on the back of this crude oil - Brent now at $46. Investors are gearing up

for the earnings season Alcoa has reported in the last 40 minutes.

The attacks in France are reigniting the fundamental debate about the freedom to travel. Lawmakers say programs to make it easier to travel in

Europe and the U.S. are putting the public at risk. We'll talk about that. It's "Quest Means Business."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: In the wake of the terror attacks in France, European lawmakers are calling for tighter border controls. Authorities have been

unable to halt to the flow of Westerners traveling to Syria and Iraq to join ISIS. More than 3,000 Europeans are thought to have made the journey

and then return to their home country. One of them is believed to be Hayat Boumeddiene who the French authorities say is the accomplice to the gunman

Coulibaly who attacked the kosher supermarket in Paris. Now the authorities believe she wasn't even in France at the time of the attack.

The Turkish media says that she was in Madrid.

Come and have a look and see of course. Most of you will be familiar with the Schengen Treaty. The Schengen Treaty allows there to be passport-

free - passport-free travel - within the countries between the countries and it all works on the basis - getting me pen out me pocket - that there

is a very sharp border around the outside, but one shore inside the Schengen area you can travel free - you can travel freely.

Now some are calling for the scheme to be changed or dropped because it's believed that on January the 2nd, Boumeddiene traveled to Istanbul in

Turkey. Getting from France into Spain - no problem, straight across the border - no passport required. Turkey doesn't require visas for travelers

from some countries like France. So in other words, she can get to through/to (ph) Turkey relatively easier. Now, Turkish media then say she

crossed the border from Turkey into Syria on January the 8th. The route is all too familiar to the authorities. Turkey is facing its own enormous

flow of refugees upwards from Syria and other Jihadist countries. The prime minister in Turkey says his country hasn't done - to say that Turkey

hasn't done enough, bearing in mind the situation, -- is unfair.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

AHMET DAVUTODLU, TURKEY PRIME MINISTER, VIA INTERPRETER: We will never accept it if Turkey is blamed unfairly in this context. Whoever has

intelligence should share it. Turkey has 911 kilometer-long border with Syria and we're trying to secure this border with extraordinary efforts.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

QUEST: Now, if the European visa situation or Schengen area is one aspect, across the Atlantic are top lawmakers now warning that the U.S.

visa waiver program is putting America at risk. In 2012, more than 19 million visitors enter the country under the so-called visa waiver program.

You're familiar with the countries - it's most of the European Union or at least a large part of the European Union. It's Australia and it's the

major countries in Southeast Asia along with - along with - Chile on the western Latin America and of course New Zealand. Thirty-eight countries

including France can stay in the U.S. for up to 90 days without applying for a visa. It's now done through the ESTA system. Diane Feinstein is the

former chairwoman of the U.S. Intelligence Committee told CNN the program makes it easier for terrorists to get in and out. Joining me now is Jan

Philipp Albrecht, a member of the European Parliament who says big brother measures play right into the terrorists' hands. You may be right - big

brother measures - but frankly, do you have a better solution when you bear in mind tonight we're talking about Boumeddiene traveling, taking advantage

of Schengen?

JAN PHILIPP ALBRECHT, GERMAN MEP, GROUP OF THE GREENS: I think the most appropriate solution is to connect the dots. We need to have the

information right at the right place so that French authorities know about somebody entering the borders through the borders of the Schengen room (ph)

and that France has access to all this information because in these cases, we are talking about known suspects. We're not talking about citizens -

French citizens - which are in the systems also in the Schengen systems and we need to exchange them better instead of collecting just more data about

completely irrelevant persons.

QUEST: Hang on, hang on. I mean, I suppose my answer to you that, sir, would be if it was that easy, they'd be doing it. We're talking about

thousands of people in many different jurisdictions when there's often linguistic differences -- so surely it's not that easy.

ALBRECHT: That's true. But of course we also need to set priorities, and what we see is that we invested throughout the last decade quite a lot

of money into mass surveillance and to data collection, but perhaps this money would be better invested in better equipment of police authorities in

language translation for example being put to these officers and some coordination which is needed to bring data from A to B in a very quick

reaction.

QUEST: Now in just a moment - and I want to just to change streams if I may - in just a moment we're going to be talking about Hungary's prime

ministers. You may have seen his comments. He basically is saying in Europe immigration needs to be stopped. He was also going to be saying

that Hungary one needs to be for the Hungarians. As a European lawmaker, do you have any sympathy with Viktor Orban's views?

ALBRECHT: No, I have to say I don't share his views and I'm also a bit surprised how in Europe of the 21st century we still talk in the way

how we talked in the last century and it ended up in a very time in Europe. I hope that this is not coming back, but that the progress we had for

example by the European integration in the Schengen area to get the societies working together to get common measures -

QUEST: All right.

ALBRECHT: -- for border controls and security - that's needed.

QUEST: Sir, thank you for joining us tonight. When we return, the prime minister's spokesman will be on this program to defend the prime

minister's views that he wants to stop immigration into Europe.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Protesters have gathered in record numbers at anti-Islam protests in Dresden where AFP's reporting as many as 25,000 people joined a

rally according to the police. The organizers say that demonstration honors those killed in Paris. The critics argue the gathering incites

hatred towards foreigners. Phil Black joins me live. It's extraordinary, isn't it, this protest? I mean what are they protesting about? It is -

you know - it's easy to say it's anti-Islam - what's the core of the protest?

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Richard, they are against Islam generally. They believe that it has an out-of-proportion influence within

German society, one that is growing and they're also more broadly pretty dissatisfied about this country's immigration policy, one they believe is

too broad, too often abused. Worth noting that this protest movement dates back, well a few months now, so it predates the events in Paris. Started

off very small here in Dresden, grew steadily from there - a few hundred to a few thousand, spread to other cities but it is only here in Dresden where

they're now attracting tens of thousands of people onto the streets. This was the biggest meeting - the biggest demonstration - so far following the

events in Paris.

QUEST: Right.

BLACK: This movement has been heavily criticized by the German government in particular - very strong language talking about the

prejudice. The German chancellor even talked about perhaps the hatred at the heart of this movement leadership. But they said today that the events

in Paris prove that they have been right to raise these concerns, Richard.

QUEST: Phil Black in Dresden with that part of the story. Now, as we were talking, European leaders are ramping up anti-immigration rhetoric in

the wake of Paris' terror attacks. Those responsible were all born in France to migrant families. Hungary's prime minister Viktor Orban warned

that immigrants are a threat to the European public and he wants to crack down.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

VIKTOR ORBAN, HUNGARY PRIME MINISTER, VIA INTERPRETER: We should not look at economic immigration as if it had use because it only brings

trouble and threats to the European people. Therefore, immigration must be stopped. That's the Hungarian stance. Hungary will not become a target

destination for immigrants. We will not allow it, at least as long as I am prime minister and as long as this government is in power. We do not want

to see a significant minority among ourselves that has different cultural characteristics and background. We would like to keep Hungary as Hungary.

(END VIDEOCLIP) QUEST: Hungarian government spokesman Zoltan Kovacs joins me now on the line from Budapest. In the great scheme - in the great world of

statements on days when people are talking about unity, your prime minister whipped up anti-immigration rhetoric.

ZOLTAN KOVACS, HUNGARIAN GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: Well, he also participated at the March in Paris, constituting and standing for unity and

those European values we have - we all have to stand for. I think the prime minister has been persistent and continuously talking about this

issue for the past couple of months or maybe years -

QUEST: Why?

KOVACS: -- and he's been addressing this as an issue that should be stripped of all cabbud (ph) and addressed accordingly.

QUEST: How do you prevent a legitimate debate which even the U.K.'s having on immigration? But the way the prime minister - you prime minister

- put it, Hungary for Hungary. Immigration must be stopped. No economic benefit to - for economic immigration. So how do you stop this turning

into a witch hunt against immigrants which eventually ends up in violence and bloodshed?

KOVACS: Well the prime minister is not calling for any kind of witch hunt and -

QUEST: No, I didn't say he was - I said -

KOVACS: -- not calling against migrants.

QUEST: No, no, Mr. (Inaudible) - let me jump in.

KOVACS: He's calling against migration as a serious issue -

QUEST: Let me jump in here.

KOVACS: -- and a serious threat on Europe.

QUEST: Let me - he said - let me jump in here. He said - I'm asking you - I agree the prime minister didn't say that but how do you - but once

this rabbit is out of the hatch, once you've started, how do you prevent it from turning into 1939 all over again?

KOVACS: Well, I think he we really should abstain from exaggerations and this issue - the whole issue of migration should be addressed in an

honest and outspoken, straightforward manner to be able to talk about this issue in a context that is going to bring up clear cut results. I mean, it

is clear cut for the past couple of years, that the sheer number of those refugees that are posing daily threat and daily pressure actually on the

common boundaries of the continent we have to do something with.

QUEST: Hang on.

KOVACS: Now, we have to -

QUEST: Hang on - what pressure?

KOVACS: -- we have to deal with the refugees -

QUEST: Just a minute Mr. Kovacs, just a minute Mr. Kovacs. You are taking an immigration situation and you're turning it - and your prime

minister is turning it into an attack against all immigration within the E.U.

KOVACS: No, the time has come that we have to talk about these issues again in an honest and outspoken, straightforward manner because otherwise

we will not be able to address these issues and bring - and settle these issues according to European values.

QUEST: We'll leave it there, sir. We'll talk more about this in the future. Thank you for joining us.

KOVACS: Thank you.

QUEST: Whatever your - the - rights and wrongs of the debate, one thing's guaranteed - we'll be having it here. There'll be a "Profitable

Moment" after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

QUEST: Finally tonight, the discussion on immigration in Europe and the Hungarian minister's view it should be stopped - there is a debate

about to take place in Europe over the future of immigration. The U.K.'s going to have it with UKIP, France will have it, Hungary will have it, and

there is nothing wrong per se with politicians and countries having that debate. What's worrying is when politicians start whipping up the

rhetoric. `Hungary for Hungarians,' - when it starts to become immigration must be stopped. Then you go into you've crossed the line. It's no longer

a debate about whether immigration is good or bad, it becomes one to whip up a ferment. History is replete with examples where this has happened,

and anybody who tries to deny an innocent-sounding comment for what it could turn into in the future is simply misguided. And that's "Quest Means

Business" tonight. I'm Richard Quest in New York. Whatever you're up to in the hours ahead, (RINGS BELL) I'll see you tomorrow.

END