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Amanpour

Muslim Reaction to "Charlie Hebdo" Publication; Interview with Archbishop Tagle of Manila; Imagine a World

Aired January 14, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Long queues at newsstands in France to snap up the survivors' issue of "Charlie Hebdo." And indeed it

has been a sellout. Tonight reaction, a tale of two Muslims.

Also ahead:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL LUIS ANTONIO TAGLE, ARCHBISHOP OF MANILA: -- when people differ from us, we cannot use that diversity or difference as an excuse to be

disrespectful also to the point of desecrating human life.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): My interview with the archbishop of Manila amid security fears as the pope draws huge crowds in Sri Lanka and now heads to

the Philippines.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

Exactly one week after terrorists murdered 17 people in Paris, the magazine, "Charlie Hebdo," has resoundingly stood its ground, actually

printing 5 million copies of its new issue and declaring all is forgiven, a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad shedding a tear declares "Je suis Charlie."

And as I said, it is already sold out in France. As copies hit the newsstand, Al Qaeda in Yemen tried to steal the limelight in this deadly

media war by posting a video claiming responsibility for the attack on the satirical magazine.

But this week, the rector of the Great Mosque in Paris called for an urgent reform of Islam to rip politics out of the religion and to try to

disempower the violent extremists.

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DALIL BOUBAKEUR, RECTOR, GREAT MOSQUE OF PARIS (through translator): Today we want to appeal for a change in religious thinking in Islam, that we

abandon political Islam, so we should not turn it into a policy, but to keep it as a religion.

We want to reform the training of imams. We don't want to allow these imams just to be trained anywhere or in Arabia, spouting fundamentalism.

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AMANPOUR: Even outside extremist circles there is a fierce debate among Muslims about just how much offense they can take. One thing is for sure:

depictions of the Prophet Muhammad are not banned by the Quran.

Joining me now to discuss all of this is Madjid Messaoudene, a city council member for Paris' Saint-Denis suburb, which does have a significant Muslim

population and here in the studio Sara Khan, co-director of Inspire, which is a British organization that fights extremism and gender discrimination.

Welcome to both of you.

Let me first start with you, Madjid, there in France.

What else could "Charlie Hebdo" have done today other than put this cartoon on the cover? Four million people turned out across France, millions more

supporting the right to free speech around the world.

MADJID MESSAOUDENE, CITY COUNCIL, SAINT-DENIS: Well, good evening. I think "Charlie Hebdo" could have put something else on their first cover.

For example, to condemn terrorism and to say that Islam has nothing to do with what happened one week ago.

I think they knew that drawing the Prophet would offend or insult millions, thousands of Muslims all over the world. And in France, many people are

shocked because they think that there's a line. And drawing the Prophet "Charlie Hebdo" crossed once again this line. I'm not sure it was a good

moment for that.

AMANPOUR: OK. I asked you wasn't it the only moment to do this now.

And I asked you, you say they should have said this is not Islam. Surely the "Je suis Charlie" and "Tout est pardonne," all is forgiven, means

precisely that.

MESSAOUDENE: No. It means that Islam has something to be forgiven for and the Prophet can't wear a "Je suis Charlie" banner because the Muslims can't

be -- can't agree with all that "Charlie Hebdo" says or draws.

So I think that the main mistake is to draw the Prophet and to make him wear this banner of "Je suis Charlie." I think this is a miss and putting

the Prophet is making a link between terrorism and Islam.

AMANPOUR: Let me turn to Sara Khan here in the studio.

Do you agree? Did he -- did you think that this was provocative of "Charlie Hebdo"? And did you get that message that Madjid seems to have

gotten from this cover?

SARA KHAN, DIRECTOR OF BRITISH NGO, INSPIRE: No, I don't actually. I didn't find the image to be provocative or there was an attempt by "Charlie

Hebdo" to be provocative, either.

And I think we have to be very careful because when we say Muslims are offended, we're talking about 1.6 billion Muslims across the globe.

They're going to hold very diverse views. And you will have views like Madjid, who will argue that it is offensive. But you'll have other views,

who will (INAUDIBLE) Muslims will say it isn't.

For myself personally, when I saw the image -- there were three messages I felt "Charlie Hebdo" were conveying.

The first was that we're expressing solidarity with our murdered colleagues. The second actually was that they were trying to express a

respectful representation of the Prophet, not in a physical sense, but respectful to his teachings.

Many Muslims will tell you that the Prophet was a man who was regularly denigrated, mocked, humiliated, abused during his lifetime. And he

responded with mercy, with compassion and, above all, forgiveness.

So the "all is forgiven" struck on the top of the images is, for me, very powerful.

And I think the third message of the cartoon showed that it's in defiance of the terrorists. It's saying that rather than denigrating ordinary

Muslims across the world, we're actually undermining the message of the terrorists by saying it is you who insult the message and the teachings of

the Prophets themselves.

AMANPOUR: Let us get to the heart of the matter of the depiction. Yes, there have been much more offensive, vulgar depictions. But in terms of an

edict against depicting the Prophet, it does not say that in the Quran.

Where does this all come from?

And let's not forget that for years, for centuries, we've had brilliant art, works of art, with the Prophet and nobody's objected to it.

KHAN: You're absolutely right, Christiane. I mean, the dominant view is actually very much a modern one. And it seems to clash with firstly the

Quran, and there is nothing explicitly that prohibits the image, the drawings, any kind of image of the Prophet.

But also it flies in the face of Muslim history itself. So as you rightly pointed out, Muslim history is replete with and -- not with cartoons,

sorry; with images, with drawings of beautiful medieval paintings of the Prophet Muhammad, standing alongside Jesus, for example. Those images were

there, drawn by Muslims, featured in Persian and Turkish artworks and so forth.

So it's there as a form of reverence and respect to the Prophet.

I think what we're seeing actually today -- it's the fact that in the last century particular there has been a rise in extreme and hardline

interpretations for some, Salafism, for example, which is dominated the landscape of Islam today in the modern context.

It's best that we have -- it's a serious challenge that are facing Muslims today.

AMANPOUR: Madjid Messaoudene, let me ask you to answer that.

You were actually friends with Stephane Charbonnier, Charb, the main cartoonist who was slaughtered on last Wednesday. You were friends with

another of the "Charlie Hebdo" columnists there.

Do you agree with what Sara has just said and what many Muslims are saying, that actually there is no real ban in the Quran?

And those who say that depicting the Prophet is offensive are actually those who are using a hardline Salafist interpretation of that?

MESSAOUDENE: Well, I knew two of them, yes, Stephane Charbonnier and Donald Maris (ph). What I can tell you is that, for example, my sister is

wearing the veil. She has not Salafist interpretation of Islam. But she has been shocked by this drawing of the Prophet.

We can't understand why many Muslim people in France were shocked by this cover without the (INAUDIBLE) context we are living in in France. We have

the wide spreading Islamophobia in this country. We had like almost 100 Islam racist acts against Muslims this latest days.

So we can't make as if there was not a context that explains why Muslims feel once again insulted. This time it's by "Charlie Hebdo"; 364 other

days by your - it's by the government, it's by the political parties. So I think we have to be careful with these symbolics (sic).

And even if there's no strict prohibition to do it, you have to take into account the feelings of the Muslims because they are part of the population

(ph) and we have to respect them.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you to just confirm -- I mean, you said, yes, "Charlie Hebdo" has the right to exist and we have the right to criticize it.

But what is your reaction to the rector, to Dr. Dalil Boubakeur, who said in no uncertain terms to me, we must have a reform of Islam. We must rip

politics out of the religion. And we must not allow the extremists, the Arabian Wahhabi Salafists to have the agenda and our imams need to

understand that Islam is not all that.

Do you agree with that?

MESSAOUDENE: Well, what Boubakeur says is not a scoop. He does not represent all the Muslims in France. The Muslim community is not

organized, as you know. The problem is that you have a small minority which is getting more and more extremist.

But they are not representative of the majority of the Muslims in France.

We have to let the Muslims getting organized. We have to let them choose the way they want to live their life. The problem is not from an

organization. The problem is not from getting politics in place in Islam.

The problem is that in France, the elites, the French government does not consider Islam as a normal religion. They still consider it as a threat.

They still see Muslims not as citizens but as interior enemies.

This is the main issue in France. So Dalil Boubakeur is talking just for himself, his friends. But he's not talking about other Muslims in France.

AMANPOUR: All right. But he is the rector of the Grand Mosque in Paris and he is the head of the Council of the French Muslim faith.

So let me ask you, Sara, where do we go from here? Because what Madjid is describing is sort of grievance offense. This is a big global grievance

that Muslims have and these cartoons exacerbate the feeling of being under siege.

Where do we go from here in terms of freedom of expression, balanced with faith?

KHAN: I think there's two things. I think Madjid raises a valid point about how French Muslims, many -- especially the young feel

disenfranchised. They're experiencing discrimination. We know for example there's very high unemployment rates amongst French Muslims. That needs to

be addressed, this feeling of social frustration amongst Muslim youth in France needs to be addressed because that's why extremists deliberately

target these young people, because they know they feel aggrieved.

So that has to be addressed and it has to be tackled.

But yes, of course, I agree very much that we do need to rip out politics from Islam because I think that's been one of the most poisonous things to

have happened to Islam, where it has become so politicized and it's very damaging in that sense.

So there has to be that debate. There has to be taking that debate forward.

I think we also have to recognize that, yes, there is freedom of expression and there are many, many Muslims. And we've seen this from the Arab

Spring. They've died. They yearned for freedom of expression because they knew it's freedom of expression that protects all their other rights. If

they can't stand up to authorities, what other rights is there for them to protect?

It's very, very important. Naturally many activists like myself, we feel very passionate about embodying freedom of expression because in the work

that I do here in London, challenging gender discrimination in Muslim communities, challenging extremist ideologies, we do that through freedom

of expression and many people try to silence our voices in this debate.

So challenging and protecting freedom of expression is fundamental as well.

AMANPOUR: On that note, Sara Khan, thank you very much indeed for joining me from London.

And Majid Messaoudene, thank you so much for joining me from Paris. It is a debate that will continue.

And after a break, Pope Francis has strongly condemned what he called the religious deviants that led to the slaughter of innocents in Paris as the

pontiff tours Asia. I talked to the Philippines hugely popular cardinal ahead of the pontiff's touchdown in Manila.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. As we mark one week since the brutal terror attacks on the offices of "Charlie Hebdo," the deadliest

attack on journalists anywhere in the world took place back in 2009 in the Philippines, when 30 local reporters were shot and killed by gunmen.

On Thursday, Pope Francis heads to the Philippines as part of a six-day papal tour of Asia after his stay in Sri Lanka where he canonized the

country's first saint.

As Manila awaits the pontiff, I asked Cardinal Luis Antonio Tagle what his visit means at this of deep religious divide.

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AMANPOUR: Cardinal Tagle, welcome to the program. Thank you for joining me from Manila.

TAGLE: Thank you very much, Ms. Amanpour. Thank you for having me.

AMANPOUR: Cardinal, the pope's visit comes amidst a terrible wave of terror attacks in France. The pope has condemned what he called this

deviant extremism.

Can I ask you your views on what happened and whether you would have tolerated that kind of mockery and perhaps even offense in a satirical

magazine?

TAGLE: Wherever and whenever human life is desecrated, the whole of humanity should mourn. And this type of mourning goes beyond religious,

economic, educational, social, cultural barriers. So I and the Filipino people are in a communion with those who are suffering.

And we want to tell the world that, even if we have differences, we should not allow differences of all sorts to lead us to a disregard of human

dignity. Yes, once in a while, we feel slighted by some people's comments, et cetera. I think there are two angles here, that us all try to be as

respectful as we can to people who differ from us.

But when people differ from us, we cannot use that diversity or difference as an excuse to be disrespectful also to the point of desecrating human

life.

So we are very, very sorry for this state of -- or this condition.

AMANPOUR: Cardinal, Al Qaeda in Yemen has just taken responsibility. There is a lot of security in place for Pope Francis's visit to the

Philippines. There have been plots against previous popes by Al Qaeda. You have a population which is 10 percent Muslim and some terrorist groups

have allied themselves with the Islamic State.

The pope has spoken out very strongly about this, what he called deviant Islam, urging the Islamic faith to condemn this, and saying they are

eliminating God with this kind of brutal and violent message.

Are you concerned for the safety of the pope today during his visit?

TAGLE: What concerns us here in the Philippines as we prepare for the visit is the participation of the administration, the Aquino

administration, our security people, the police force, the military and even the ordinary citizens and, may I add, even our brothers and sisters of

the Islamic faith here in the Philippines. Everyone wants this visit to be meaningful and safe.

And we also, while we regret really the loss of life, especially as done by terrorist groups, we also do not want to jump to the conclusion that these

acts are always associated with the religion called Islam.

Our experience here in the Philippines -- I can speak for myself -- we have many friends of the Islamic religion. And they are the first ones to say

acts of terror are not, are not part of our religion. And I believe them. We have a lot of peace-loving people and they cry also when their religion

is in a way misused.

AMANPOUR: For a long, long time, Asian Catholics have said and they've complained that the Vatican doesn't pay enough attention to them. They've

complained about that.

The pope has just raised a Sri Lankan saint. Do you think, under Pope Francis, this sort of European-centric "Keep Asia sort of on the outskirts"

is changing?

TAGLE: Well, I think he is just continuing what his predecessors had already started. Here in Asia -- and we claim that Jesus was born on Asian

soil -- well, this is the most populous continent of the world, but the Christian population remains like only 3 percent of the total Asian

population. And half of that Christian population is found in the Philippines.

The past popes, the past 50 years, have been trying their best to link Christianity with Asian cultures and sensibilities. We have the same hope

with Pope Francis.

AMANPOUR: What will his visit mean to you, to your nation and to Asia?

TAGLE: The Philippines at this time, we've just been coming out many natural calamities and also human-made disasters. The people are just

scarred, just even tired and weary. But we are a people that continues on hoping. Now the coming of the pope will intensify that.

But, Ms. Amanpour, Christiane, I also hope that the Holy Father, seeing the joy, seeing the resilience, seeing the hopefulness of our simple and poor

and suffering people, I hope he would also be inspired. After all, he says the church should go to the peripheries, not just in order to bring

something to the periphery, but also to get something from the periphery, to learn valuable lessons from the periphery.

AMANPOUR: Cardinal Tagle, thank you very much indeed for joining me from Manila.

TAGLE: Oh, thank you very much.

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AMANPOUR: And in the coming hours, we're going to post much more of that interview online, including the cardinal's views on a very sensitive issue

that Pope Francis is trying to push, and that is reform in the Catholic Church.

Now whether mocking the Catholic Church, the Jewish faith, celebrities, governments or dictators, satirists have paid a high price for years. And

we'll examine the case of a cartoonist in Syria next.

But first, as that nation remains in the grip of a deadly civil war, more death is being inflicted right now by the worst snowstorm in decades.

Eleven people have been killed so far in that storm in their war-damaged homes and in refugee camps on the border in Lebanon.

In a bitter twist of fate, the guns have actually briefly fallen silent as even the warring sides get out of the cold.

After a break, imagine a world where a Syrian cartoonist's hands are considered his most dangerous weapon.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine a world where your hands become a dictator's enemy number 1. Legendary Syrian cartoonist Ali Ferzat was

almost killed by Syrian security forces in August 2011 when the civil war broke out there because he dared put pen to paper, drawing cartoons

critical of President Bashar al-Assad.

Since then, he's been living in exile in Kuwait and in view of what happened in Paris, we asked him to tell us about the high price he's paid

for his work in Damascus.

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ALI FERZAT, CARTOONIST (through translator): On the day of August 25, 2011, a security police car with tinted windows was following me with four

men inside carrying batons. And then they cornered me in one of the most important squares in Damascus and four men jumped out of the car and

started attacking me.

After about half an hour of driving through which I was still being beaten on my eyes, on my head with their batons, then they grabbed my fingers and

they started breaking them one by one so to teach me a lesson for insulting the president. And they told me that this is how you learn not to insult

the president and that the president's shoes is over your head and over the head of anyone who is talking about freedom.

It is true they broke me up. But what I did was break out of the fear that was dominating Syria for the past 50 years.

I was not surprised about what happened. And I was pained for those cartoonists. Those artists did not carry a gun or a weapon. They only

carried a pen, just like I did. It appears that the pen is mightier than any weapon as we have seen when the terrorists attacked and killed those

cartoonists.

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AMANPOUR: And on this night of all nights, it's important for all of us to keep up the fight to keep the pen mightier than the sword.

And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.

Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

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