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Belgium Raid Detailed; Belgian Official Speaks about the Raid

Aired January 15, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm John Berman live in Paris, along with Brooke Baldwin in New York.

Of course, we've been here in France covering the aftermath of the pair of terror attacks in this country last week. Now we have information of breaking news one country over in Belgium. An anti- terror raid in the town of Verviers left two people dead. This was a raid directed at a group believed to be directed by ISIS. Officials tell us this group was meeting to attack situations and places in Europe in retaliation for the coalition bombing of ISIS in Iraq and Syria.

Again, a raid in the city of Verviers in Belgium. We are awaiting a news conference any minute now from officials there to explain what happened, how it happened, and what tipped them off.

Of course a key question many people in this country are asking right now is, were these raids in any way connected to the pair of attacks that took place here. We'll bring you that news conference the minute it happens. We have information about why this raid began. We'll bring that to you in just one moment.

But first, we have some dramatic footage of this raid. Two people killed as it was taking place. Let's watch.

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BERMAN: All right, again, this video from the town of Verviers in Belgium. Two dead, one wounded in an anti-terror raid there believed to be directed against an ISIS inspired, perhaps even ISIS orchestrated group that had been planning to attack European targets.

I want to bring in our terror analyst Paul Cruickshank. Paul has been developing this information.

Paul, what can you tell me about this ISIS directed group that was the target in Belgium over the last few hours?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Hey, John.

Yes, I've been speaking to a senior Belgium counter terrorism official. These guys have been under surveillance for a while. And their concern has been that after they came back from Syria, that they were planning to launch some sort of terrorist attack.

The Belgium authorities weren't sure exactly what, when, and how. But the Belgians received indications that this group, when they were in Syria, had connected with ISIS and had been directed to some extent by ISIS to come back and return to Europe to launch attacks. That would be a kind game changer.

We've not seen that yet from ISIS. They have not prioritized attacks in the west yet. So it's a very, very concerning indeed if they're now putting their very considerable resources into launching attacks back in Europe in retaliation for these air strikes from the United States and other countries.

Belgium is involved in those air strikes in Iraq. And so the Belgians were worried that this group was plotting perhaps something against Belgium to retaliate for Belgium's involvement in the anti-ISIS coalition. They were putting a lot of pieces of intelligence together but they were growing more and more worried in recent weeks.

And with, of course, this attack in France, just one week ago, they were concerned that they would be inspired to go and launch their attack. And so the Belgians felt that they had to go in, they had to round these people up. It appears that some of these suspects were armed. I mean Belgium police wouldn't normally go in all guns blazing. So I think that's highly suggestive of the fact some of these people were heavily armed and we now understand that several of the suspected terrorists were killed in this operation, John.

BERMAN: We know so far two dead, one wounded in this anti-terror raid. A group that Paul Cruickshank tells us was an ISIS directed group in Belgium. ISIS wanted them to start attacks against European targets in retaliation for the coalition bombing of ISIS in Syria and Iraq.

Of course, here in Paris, the question everyone wants to know is, are there any connections at all to the attacks here last week?

I'm standing here with Fred Pleitgen, who's been covering the attacks here with me over the last week.

And, Fred, we did learn of an arrest in Belgium just over the last few hours. A man who had bought a car from the girlfriend of Amedy Coulibaly, the man who attacked the kosher market, and is now being held on weapons charges for perhaps supplying some kind of weapons here.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, a man who was a known arms dealers. He was in Chalaqua (ph), which is a different part of Belgium, but nothing in Belgium is very far apart because it's not really a very big country. It is very much unclear whether these two events are linked, whether it's linked to this anti- terror operation that's happening right now.

This man, of course, we know, turned himself into police on Tuesday. That suggests that perhaps it might not be related. At this point it simply is too early to tell. But two things that I think are absolutely key in all of this. One of them is that Belgium -- and many people don't know this - Belgium, in Europe, is the country per capita with the highest amount of people that go to fight for organizations like ISIS in Iraq and Syria. And, of course, the Belgians, for a very long time, had been very worried about some of these people coming back and perpetrating attacks.

The other thing that we have to know about the sort of European jihadist scene is that borders don't really matter. The people who perpetrate something like this in Belgium might very well be connected to people here in France. The borders are transcendent. Many of them are people who come from migrant families from northern Africa. So there is a common bond there between those people. And a lot of them, of course, don't feel like they belong in the society in Belgium or in France. So it is - it really is not like you're seeing this transcend counties, even though it is, it really is a common European problem that we're talking about.

BERMAN: One thing to keep in mind, Amedy Coulibaly, the man who attacked the kosher market here, says he was inspired by ISIS. Our Paul Cruickshank tells us right now the raid in Belgium, in the town of Verviers, that left two people dead and one wounded, that was directed at an ISIS-directed group he says.

A security source here in France told me moments ago also that one thing about Belgium is there's a lot of arms trade. A great deal of weapons that come through that country to other points in Europe. So keep that in mind as well.

I want to bring in reporter Chris Burns, formerly of CNN, right now who is in Belgium.

Chris, what can you tell us? What are you hearing about this raid in Verviers?

CHRIS BURNS, FORMER CNN REPORTER (via telephone): Well, John, what we're hearing and what I'm seeing here in the Belgium media is that the Belgium television is now reporting three dead in that operation in Verviers. This was part of a nationwide operation in a number of cities. At least - they are reporting operations in Brussels, in two towns just outside of Brussels. This, of course, following what happened in Paris and the link of arms. The arms that were found. That - the arms traders that were involved in selling the arms to the attackers in France. And so that's why the police are really cracking down right now and trying to round them up to try to prevent any further.

There had been operations going on called (INAUDIBLE), it's the up -- scaled up security operation, patrolling, checking, searching. That had been going on for the last few weeks. But at this point now, of course, what had happened in France has really gotten the anti- terrorist operations stepped up, scaled up here and perhaps just in time.

John.

BERMAN: And, Chris, to be clear, the Belgium media you're listening to right now, they are saying there's a weapons connection between the group that was targeted today and perhaps the attacks here in Paris last week?

BURNS: Uh, no, that has not - that has not yet been established. We're going to have to see what is said at the press conference at this hour -- to be held this hour in Brussels by the federal police. So we'll see what they say. But they are -- the police are -- have stepped up operations because of this link that was found between -- not between what happened actually in Verviers yet, but what -- there had been weapons that had been traced to the attackers in France to a market, a well-known market here in Brussels in the -- near the southern train station, where there are fairly illicit operations going on there sometimes. The sale of illicit drugs and weapons there. And then also there had been a link to an arms deal who lived in Shamlugua (ph), which is south of Brussels. There's an airport over there. So that had been the two links that were made and perhaps -- we have to find out from police - but perhaps there had been a link to what happened in (INAUDIBLE). We need - in, sorry, in Verviers, but we need to confirm that.

BERMAN: OK, excellent. Thank you very much for laying that out for us.

Again, you're looking at video right now of this raid that happened in the town of Verviers in Belgium. A raid that apparently left two, although there is Belgium media reporting three people dead. The raid was targeting an ISIS-directed group, that is according to CNN analyst Paul Cruickshank, an ISIS-directed group that had been told to start attacking European targets in retaliation for the coalition bombing inside Iraq and Syria.

I want to bring in former assistant FBI director Tom Fuentes.

And, Tom, this is exactly what people have feared in the west now for months, the idea that westerners, whether it be in these European countries, in Canada perhaps, even in the United States, could go to Iraq and Syria, then go home, and perhaps engage in terror operations in their countries. Paul Cruickshank suggests that is what was at least being attempted to happen here in Belgium before this raid today.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That's exactly right, John, and we've been saying for months that people from over 50 countries have travelled to Syria and Iraq to learn how to fight war, to learn how to deal with explosives and heavy weapons and RPGs and we said they're going to go home at some point, and many have already now. And when they get home, it's just going to be a matter of time before we start seeing these attacks.

And we've had hundreds and hundreds go from European countries. But they're from every country, every continent, including the U.S., Canada, Australia. So it's not just limited to Europe. But I think what we're seeing is what's been predicted for a long time. This has been like watching a hurricane coming and growing and growing and gradually making landfall and now we have -- we have the results now.

BERMAN: Paul Cruickshank, if you're still with us, I do want to ask you a question because I understand you've got some more reporting suggesting that all of Europe right now has been told to be on the lookout. This is a new sense of alertness here for these ISIS-inspired attacked?

CRUICKSHANK: Yes, I mean, they're very worried about both the ISIS- inspired attacks, which are the kind of lone wolf attacks by people inspired by ISIS' calls to launch attacks in retaliation, but perhaps even more worried about these returning fighters coming back from Syria and Iraq. And my understanding is that they're now more than 500 European nationals back on European soil who fought with jihadi groups in Syria and Iraq. I mean that's an unprecedented number, impossible to monitor them all, all the time. And so there's great concern that some may get through the cracks and be able to launch attacks. Clearly, the Belgians have decided to go in before that could happen in their country, go in and apprehend this group who they suspect were connected with ISIS in Syria and suspect that ISIS encouraged and directed to come back and launch attacks.

After the attack played out in Paris just a week ago, they couldn't take any chances anymore. But this is a real problem for the Belgians. About 150 Belgium nationals right now are in Syria fighting with ISIS and other jihadi groups. Around 70 have returned. The Belgium authorities are telling me that every month another 15 extremists make their way toward Syria to join these groups. And that gives you a sense of the scale of this problem, the scale of this challenge. There's a lot of radicalization right now. And the whole system, the radical system, has been energized by these attacks against the "Charlie Hebdo" magazine a week ago. Concern that these kind of people would be inspired to accelerate plans. And that's why they went in.

BERMAN: All right, Paul Cruickshank, thank you very much. Stand by please.

We are awaiting a live news conference from inside Belgium. Key questions, what exactly spurred this raid? How close could this ISIS- inspired group in Belgium have been to staging some kind of attack? Was there any connection to the attacks here in Paris? A live news conference coming up. We'll be right back.

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BERMAN: All right, welcome back. John Berman, live in Paris.

More than a week after the terror attacks here. We just learned over the last several hours, there has been an anti-terror raid in Belgium, the town of Verviers. In that raid, at least two people were killed, at least, could be more. One person wounded. We are told the group that was targeted was an ISIS-directed group inside Belgium, tasked with carrying out attacks against western targets in retaliation for the coalition air strikes against ISIS in Iraq and Syria.

Again, at least two people dead in these raids, could be more. We're awaiting a live news conference which could begin any minute from the federal prosecutor in Brussels to explain - will explain to us exactly what made them stage this raid exactly when they did, exactly what kind of intelligence they had.

I'm joined by Chris Burns, former CNN reporter, who is in Belgium. He can tell us - Chris, Chris, what are you hearing? What new information do you have?

BURNS: Well, John, what we're seeing on Belgium media is that the police were quite attentive to these individuals and others that had been coming back from Syria. And according to Belgium media, they're saying that the police had been watching and wiretapping many of them in recent weeks. And that is what prompted them to make the move now. That there were indications that at least some of them were planning some kind of action in Brussels itself and that it was time to move in on them. So what we're seeing is actions within Brussels, and as -- in towns just outside called Molinbic (ph) and in Vilvorde (ph). And, of course, we saw what happened in Verviers.

So they are acting now quickly, decisively. It is a part of this, what's called (INAUDIBLE). It's a stepped up security operation that's been going on for weeks. But, of course, after what happened in Paris a week ago, this is what really has stepped up their actions now. It is not clear what sort of attacks that these individuals were planning, but the police, according to Belgium media, they said that they had been planning something and that's why they had to stop them now.

BERMAN: Wiretaps on individuals that had been returning from the ISIS fight in the Middle East, presumably in Iraq and Syria, causing Belgium officials to stage this raid in the town of Verviers that left at least two people dead.

Chris, stand by for a moment.

I'm here in Paris with Fred Pleitgen.

And, Fred, you've got some information now about this town where they are, Verviers.

PLEITGEN: Yes, Verviers is apparently a town that does have some people who have made their way to fight for ISIS in Syria. In fact, we have confirmation that over the past year at least three individuals from Verviers made their way to fight for ISIS either in Iraq or Syria. It's not clear exactly where. But apparently one of them, on his social media account, even bragged about the fact that he had shot somebody somewhere in the vicinity of Aleppo. So certainly this is not something that is anything new to that town. It seems there is some sort of Islamist scene there in that town.

And we also know that over the past year, in the fall of last year, there was a trial that began in Belgium against a group that was accused of funneling fighters to Syria and Iraq to fight for groups like ISIS. And one of the things that was interesting about that trial is that there were over 40 people who were supposed to stand trial, but only eight of them actually showed up to the trial because the rest of them apparently were still fighting somewhere in Syria, or at least were in Syria.

So this is something these sort of investigations have been going on in Belgium for a while, but it was interesting also, what Chris just said and what Paul was saying as well, it seemed as though, possibly because of the events that we've seen here in Paris, that maybe the Belgium anti-terror officials believe that now is the time for them to conduct these anti-terror operations where maybe otherwise they might have just kept observing these people.

BERMAN: And we will hear from Belgium officials any minute. We're awaiting a news conference from Brussels from the federal prosecutor there to explain exactly why they launched this raid on the ISIS directed group. And, of course, a key question, everyone in France, everyone in Paris where we are has, right now, is, is there any connection to the attacks in Paris? We haven't heard that there is yet, but it is a question that many, many people have.

Paul Cruickshank, I want to bring you in here because the idea of ISIS fighters, western ISIS fighters, going to Iraq, going to Syria and returning home to their nations, that has been a fear for months and months and months but it has just been a fear. You say if it is now in practice, this is a major development.

CRUICKSHANK: Yes, I mean, it's been a fear for quite some time. And it's believed they're up to 3,000 European nationals who've made that trip to Syria or Iraq and are now - have been fighting there or returned back. So very, very big numbers. More than 500 back in the European Union right now. Those are very big numbers as well.

And what Belgium counter terrorism officials are telling me is they suspect this group they launched the raid against were in Syria, were connected to ISIS, and they suspect that the ISIS leadership encouraged or directed them to come back to launch an attack in retaliation for the air strikes in Syria and Iraq which have been launched by the anti-ISIS coalition. Belgium itself has been involved in those air strikes in Iraq. So there may be some motivation from ISIS to launch attacks in Belgium.

We know that the spokesman of ISIS, back in September, said that the group was going to launch attacks in the west in retaliation for the western offensive against it from the air in Syria and Iraq. And it appears they may well have been true to their word.

BERMAN: Paul Cruickshank, stand by for a moment here. I believe this press conference is beginning in Brussels right now. I believe there is an English translation. Let's listen in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Terrorism has had. Ten searches carried out in (INAUDIBLE) districts. This was in the framework, an investigation, looking into an operational cell made up of people, some of whom were coming back from Syria. The investigation made it possible to determine that the group was about to carry out major terrorist attacks in Belgium imminently.

At Verviers, the suspects immediately and for long minutes fired using war weapons and hand weapons before being neutralized. Two of the suspects died and a third was detained on the site. No witness, no police officer was injured. The investigation is currently continuing. And as you will understand, it's not possible to give any more information in order not to undermine the investigation. Another press conference will be given tomorrow morning at 11:00 in the morning. Given the significance of this, the police means and special

operations were brought in to add their weight to the work of the municipal police of Brussels. We have to say what extraordinary work the federal police force has done, the security forces of the state, and also the special forces, the federal (INAUDIBLE). Given the situation, the body coordinating an analysis of threat decided to raise the alert threshold in Belgium to three out of four levels with respective police forces throughout Belgium. And it will remain at the level two with particular vigilance in certain places.

BERMAN: All right, a lot of information right there from a Belgium official. I believe that was the federal prosecutor there. Let me just read you the information that I wrote down.

There was a raid, an anti-terror raid in the town of Verviers. It was against a cell of people that had returned from Syria, presumably fighting for ISIS or militant groups there. This group, this cell inside Verviers was planning a major imminent attack in Belgium. That is why Belgium officials decided to launch the raid.

The terrorists there, they had what this man called war weapons and hand weapons. They fought with police. Two suspects died, one suspect was detained. And this federal prosecutor inside Belgium just concluded the news conference by saying the threat level, the terror threat alert level in Belgium has now been raised to three out of four possible levels.

I'm joined here by Tom Fuentes, former assistant director for the FBI.

Tom, when you hear major imminent attack in Brussels or in Belgium planned by a cell of people that have returned from Syria, what's your reaction?

FUENTES: Well, it's exactly what we hoped wasn't going to happen but knew it eventually would, John, that the -- in this case they had live wiretaps on these individuals, 24/7 surveillance. So they were able to know exactly when they started to notify their other partners of the potential attacks. So the fact that they had that information and were able to monitor them, you know, enabled the police to go ahead and take them out before they did it.

But as Paul Cruickshank's been saying, how many fighters have already come back from Syria, from fighting, and have this training and presumably have the same kind of weaponry? So they've neutralized one, but, you know, this is almost like swatting mosquitos at a picnic. How are you sure you're going to get them all?

BERMAN: All right, Tom Fuentes, thank you so much. Stand by, please.

Let's go back to Brooke Baldwin in New York for some more analysis.

Brooke.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, let's talk about this a little bit more. John Berman, thank you very much. I've got Colonel James Reese sitting on my right. As we've been

watching all of this as well. And you called it. I mean we watched the federal prosecutor there in Brussels specifically saying this was an operational cell because if you are an anti-terrorism official, you essentially have to wait, right, until you know that they are operational, which they were.

JAMES REESE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Right. And, Brooke, you're absolutely right. If you go too early then the network is starting to develop and plan, then it breaks up too early. So all the surveillance that the law enforcement and security services are doing, it's art. And what they're waiting to see is when they get that intelligence tip that says they're ready to go operational, because then they can literally break down this network better.

BALDWIN: So one of the fears - and, again, we don't know -- one of the key questions, if at all, what's happening in Brussels is connected to what we saw in Paris. But one of the fears with Paris is, you have this, at a time, operational cell out of the 19th district in the city. And so you know these French officials are trying to find those other cell members who may still be very operational.

REESE: Right.

BALDWIN: My question then, as it pertains to Brussels would be, what about others? Because if you raid, as we saw Belgian police, guns blazing into this location, that gives others the heads up.

REESE: It does. And that's what's - well, there's two things here.

BALDWIN: OK.

REESE: A good thing and a bad thing for us.

BALDWIN: OK.

REESE: The good thing on this raid is, we captured somebody. Very critical. This will - very critical. This will give a chance for the security services to interview this person and really try to find out what is made up of this network.