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Two Terror Suspects Killed in Belgium Raid; Examining the Known Details of the Raid

Aired January 15, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm John Berman live in Paris, alongside Brooke Baldwin, who is in New York.

We'd like to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world.

Our breaking news at this hour, Europe on edge. Just a bit more than a week after the terror attacks that hit this city, hit Paris, an anti-terror raid in Belgium over the last few hours. Two suspects are dead. One is now in custody. Belgian officials say this was targeted against an operational cell, an operational terror cell that was planning imminent attacks against targets inside Belgium.

This terror cell was made up of people that had returned from the fight inside Syria. They were heavily armed. Police raided where they were. And these men came out firing. Again, two are now dead. One is in custody.

Belgian officials gave a very brief news conference giving an indication that their investigation, if not their anti-terror operation, is still very much ongoing.

We have some dramatic video of this raid as Belgian law enforcement confronted this terrorist cell. Watch. You can see the fire, you can see the smoke, you can hear the gunshots in this raid in the town of Verviers in Belgium, an anti-terror operation that killed two terror suspects. One suspect is now in custody of what Belgian officials call an operational cell that was planning an imminent attack inside Belgium.

Just moments ago, Belgian officials held a news conference explaining this operation. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This was within the framework of investigation looking into an operational cell made up of people, some of whom were coming back from Syria.

The investigation made it possible to determine that the group was about to carry out major terrorist attacks in Belgium imminently. At Verviers, the suspects immediately and for long minutes fired, using more weapons and hand weapons before being neutralized. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The news conference from Belgian officials just moments ago.

The key phrase is operational terror cell planning an imminent attack against targets in Belgium, this operational cell made up of individuals that had returned recently from Syria. Belgian officials had been wiretapping them and launching apparently several raids around Belgium.

This investigation turned up the cell. The members, the terrorists, the suspects came out firing. Two are dead. One is now in custody.

I'm joined by CNN senior national correspondent security Jim Sciutto, who is also in Paris here with me. And of course this is in the wake of the attacks in Paris one week ago.

But, Jim, let's talk about this raid in Belgium. What are you learning?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, first, to be clear, we're told by Belgian authorities that it's not tied to attacks in Paris, that this was an investigation, operation in planning for a number of weeks, so going back before the Paris attacks.

But it's becoming much bigger. Not just that first raid that we saw on video, but Belgian now police saying some 10 raids and searches conducted tonight in four Belgian cities, including Verviers, but also the Belgian capital, Brussels, and two other cities. This is a major national operation in Belgium, which shows how comprehensive the threat is there, particularly as Belgian police have described with fighters returning from Syria.

As you know John, we have talked about this. A number of European countries have hundreds in fact of young men who have gone to fight in Syria and many of them returning home. The long-term concern has been when they return home, do they bring the war with them, do they bring jihad with them?

Belgium is a country that has a particular problem. In fact, in May of last year, there was a deadly attack at a Jewish museum by an ISIS veteran killed four people there. So, now tonight you have these operations, including that one we see in that dramatic video, but now 10 in total, four cities. Right now, the casualties we know confined to that one in Verviers.

But we do know that several other operations are under way, a long- planned operation, no connection to the Paris attacks. But, John, is it possible that counterterror forces in Europe are taking steps tonight that they might though the have without the Paris attacks? Or do they have a lighter trigger finger, as it were, to go after suspects? It's possible.

But Belgian authorities making clear tonight that they believe that there was an imminent threat from these returning fighters from Syria, and they had to act now.

BERMAN: Jim Sciutto filling in much of the story, key new information here. The headline right there, Jim, no connection, no connection, say Belgian officials, to what has taken place in Paris just one week ago, a separate operation directed against people they had been monitoring for some time, several weeks, 10 separate raids, Jim just reported, over four different cities in Belgium right now.

Two terror suspects dead -- one is in custody. These men inspired by ISIS apparently having fought alongside terror groups inside Syria, returning to Europe directed to carry out acts of terror. Belgium officials, Jim, say that it was an operational cell planning an imminent attack.

Now, despite the fact, Jim, that there is no connection here to the attacks in Paris, this is now less than 10 days, eight days after an attack was carried out. Belgian officials say this was an imminent attack with plans to carry out a different sort of shooting operation inside Belgium.

This really does show right now how Europe is on edge. European cities in some ways have become the front lines in this battle against terror.

SCIUTTO: No question. We're seeing the front lines from the war in Syria extended into Western Europe, which has been a fear for some time. And in fact there have been attacks before the attacks in Paris last week that showed that already, but certainly highlighted.

And you're right that, listen, no direct connection to the Paris attacks. In fact, a different group Belgian police targeting here, because, of course, remember, the prime suspect in these attacks in Paris is al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, AQAP, whereas authorities in Belgium saying tonight that these fighters connected to ISIS, so an entirely different group.

But I think you can say that the alert is heightened here, so that counterterror police, intelligence agencies are going to be quicker perhaps to take steps to prevent attacks because they don't want to take chances. Of course, we saw sadly in the case of Paris that all the fighters and all the attackers involved in those attacks had been known to authorities before. The Kouachi brothers famously had been under surveillance for a number of years by French authorities before taken off surveillance before then, just months before, as it turned out, before carrying out these attacks.

You have to think that authorities, because they're on higher alert, more likely to take operations like this. But, John, this is a particularly comprehensive one, 10 searches and raids tonight, four different cities. Shows how extensive the problem is in Belgium and sadly for other European nations as well.

BERMAN: And, of course, the news conference held by Belgian officials, Jim, was short, deliberately so, because we were told they don't want to reveal too much information which led many of us to believe that this overnight is still going on. Jim Sciutto alongside me in Paris. Of course, we have been covering

the attacks here one week ago. But borders in this part of Europe really not as important, not as firm or solid, shall we say, as they perhaps are in the United States. As soon as we got word here in Paris of this raid in Belgium, Brooke, people were flocking to televisions to get as much information as they could.

As we have been saying, Europe very much on edge, Brooke.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Absolutely. John Berman, thank you so much.

Let me just sort of begin with what part of Jim Sciutto was discussing with you. As I do so, Colonel James Reese still with me, also seated now, Buck Sexton, former counterterrorism analyst and CNN political commentator.

So good to see you, sir.

Let's begin with the point -- and I had jotted this down when I heard from the spokesman in the news conference from the federal prosecutor's office in Belgium that they had carried out these different raids. He had mentioned three different cities, the capital being Brussels, and two others, Verviers and another. Jim Sciutto mentioned four and 10 searches.

When you hear of that, what does that tell you?

JAMES REESE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: That tells me this is a great operation and it's been going for several months probably. That's the good thing. The bad thing, Jim Sciutto said it. What's happening now is -- he used a great analogy -- light trigger finger on the decision-making process.

However, at the security service level, the intel, the law enforcement and everyone, they're pretty good at making that decision. The problem now becomes at the political level. The politicians, those that have to make these decisions, get a little nervous and start pushing the gas pedal down on the operators to go, I need you to go now because of what happened in Paris.

BALDWIN: We do know that this federal prosecutor's office did -- was very specific in saying, listen, this group, this is an operational cell.

That said, you too were saying, listen, anywhere across Europe right now, they don't want to be Paris.

BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right. Absolutely. The trigger finger, so to speak, of the authorities might be a little bit easier now. They might want to go forward more quickly with the raid.

But also from the terrorist cell perspective, they might shorten their attack planning time. That might be what happened here.

BALDWIN: Because they know scrutiny and security is up. SEXTON: Exactly. Some of these cells already know they're under some

level of surveillance. They may be wary of that to begin with.

They see what happened in France. They see that attack happen. There's a pile-on effect they want to achieve. Now is a good time for them to try to attack because it sort of adds to the chaos and the feelings of terrorism all around Europe. And then on top of that, you also have the sense that they may realize their days are numbered. It's not just that the authorities may be acting more quickly. These cells around Belgium may have decided we have got to go now because they're going to make a move on us.

BALDWIN: We're saying cells. We're talking specifically about this one cell that the federal prosecutor's office was referring to.

But it brings up the point. Listen, if you have multiple hundreds of people in just Belgium alone coming back from Syria, according to our reporting from Paul Cruickshank, it does make you wonder if we're talking 10 different searches in three or four different cities, is this one cell, could this be cells?

SEXTON: When we were in the NYPD intelligence division, we would look at the cell and then the cluster.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: What does that mean?

SEXTON: The cluster are the individuals around the cell, spiritual sanctioner, somebody who is just promoting the jihad, for example, or somebody who is giving basic logistic support that might not even cross over into the realm of criminality, but they're an ideological sympathizers.

The cell is the operational unit, and those are the individuals who have said I'm either going to get the weapons to you or I'm actually going to engage in the attack. The cluster are those around them who maybe know about the attack and don't bring it to authorities' concern or tell them this would be -- waging jihad in general is a good idea.

BALDWIN: Let me hit pause on this conversation really quickly because I'm getting word Barbara Starr at the Pentagon has some new reporting on all of this.

Barbara Starr, tell me what you know.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Brooke.

What we're learning is that the United States did have some awareness of this threat stream, if you will, these threats emerging in Belgium. Still to be determined, exactly how much did the U.S. government know when, where, and how the Belgians were going to make their move.

But there was some awareness of this evolving situation in Belgium. Officials telling me, yes, everything they understood is these were elements, people returning from Syria. But at this hour, tonight in Europe, in Belgium, what I can also tell you is the supreme allied commander of NATO, General Philip Breedlove, who's actually a U.S. Air Force four-star general, monitoring the situation very closely.

Let's be clear. General Breedlove, of course, heightened awareness since the Paris attacks, now monitoring the situation in Belgium as well because, of course, Belgium is the headquarters for NATO. He is both the head, the military head of NATO and head of the U.S. European Command. U.S. troops in Europe, there's more than 60,000 of then.

So, General Breedlove now tonight in Europe monitoring this entire situation very closely. Awareness in the last several days has been raised for U.S. troops in Europe. They're being warned about being on social media. They're being warned about and have been for some time about wearing their uniforms in public, about being very aware of their presence, because we know that ISIS has threatened to attack U.S. troops.

Tonight, General Breedlove very much, we're told, getting briefed on this, being aware of the situation even as back here in Washington word is beginning to filter across all of the U.S. government, all of the national security and intelligence agencies about what has happened in Belgium -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK, so this U.S. awareness.

Let me ask you, just broadening this out with you, Barbara, as we talk about these fighters who are traveling to Syria to presumably train and then return to join this fight wherever it may be, Europe or beyond, how many Westerners? I have heard different numbers. But do you know how many Westerners have traveled to Syria to train?

STARR: Well, it's a very interesting question.

The director of national intelligence, his office has put out some new statistics on this. What they say is it's somewhere in the realm of several thousand that have traveled to Syria. But here's the problem. Some of them go onto Iraq. Very hard to track how many. Some go to fight with ISIS. Some go to Syria to fight with dozens of other groups that are fighting in Syria, fighting against the Assad regime, fighting against each other.

The number of Americans is relatively small, 100, 150. These are people who have either attempted to go, gone, attempted to come back. And actually a couple have been killed in combat over there. What you are seeing is increased counterterrorism cooperation with the European countries and the United States about trying to track these people, track their passports, track their movement.

But here's the problem Brooke. The big hole in all of this, U.S. officials will tell you, is that Turkish border. People are going through Turkey, crossing the border, going to Syria. And the U.S. is really trying to get the Turks to crack down on it. The Turks apparently have made the claim they don't have the legal authority to arrest people. That's according to some U.S. officials. But that Turkish border is the big, gaping hole in trying to get control of this situation. BALDWIN: That is precisely what Colonel Reese said just a moment ago.

We have dedicated so much time, I know, covering that. The question remains, what will they Erdogan do I guess going forward? It's an excellent, excellent point, Barbara Starr, at the Pentagon with that new reporting.

We have to take a quick break. Again, we're reporting on this anti- terror raid, this group, this operational cell had trained in Syria, came back to Belgium. Massive police raid happening at this presumably apartment building very recently killing two of these terror suspects. One has been detained.

You know that one surviving detainee will be questioned by authorities. What does he know? How many others could be out there wanting to wage this so-called jihad?

Stay with me. You're watching CNN.

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BERMAN: Welcome back, John Berman live in Paris.

Our breaking news comes out of Belgium, the town of Verviers, a four- hour drive from where I'm standing. Belgian officials say that within the last few hours, they staged at least 10 separate raids in four separate cities, one of these raids directed at what they call an operational terror cell that was planning an imminent attack inside Belgium, this raid again just within the last few hours.

The suspects came out firing. Two terror suspects are now dead. One is in custody. They have been wiretapping these individuals for some time, apparently. They had just returned from Syria from the battle alongside is in Syria and were planning an imminent attack in Belgium.

I'm joined now by CNN terror analyst Paul Cruickshank, along by CNN law enforcement analyst and former Assistant Director of the FBI Tom Fuentes.

And, Paul, I want to start with you, because you have been doing a great deal of reporting, information-gathering on this latest operation and its significance. And you call the existence of this cell in Belgium that had apparently just returned from Syria a game- changer.

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Yes, a game-changer because Belgian security officials believe that this group was not only connected to ISIS in Syria, but they also suspect that this group was directed by ISIS to come back to Belgium, come back to Europe to launch a terrorist attack, to launch a terrorist attack in retaliation for the airstrikes against ISIS in Syria and Iraq.

Belgium is part of that coalition. Belgium fighter jets are launching airstrikes against ISIS in Iraq, so very, very significant indeed, because this would be ISIS ratcheting up their campaign of terrorism, bringing it to the West, bringing it to Europe, very, very concerning indeed. The Belgians believe up to 150 of their nationals right now are in

Syria and Iraq, most of them connected with ISIS there. A further 70 are believed to be back in Belgium. And every month, another 15 are going. And that gives some idea of the scale of the threat facing the Belgians right now, John.

BERMAN: All right, Paul Cruickshank, stand by.

Tom Fuentes, I want to bring you in right now, because this raid, this one raid that killed two suspects and took one more into custody, this one we believe this was successful. Belgian officials didn't want to give too much information, leading many of us to believe that there's still an operation going on.

You have been in this type of situation, the front lines of law enforcement. What's happening right now? There's a suspect in custody. There were raids in at least four cities, four cities across Belgium. What is the situation there, would you suspect?

TOM FUENTES, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, right now, John, they would try to connect information that they're getting from each of the locations. I think it's 10 raids being conducted in four different cities.

If this individual can talk, fine. But he might not. We don't know what's going on with that interrogation now. But as far as the others, they're trying to coordinate from the other places, and also they're trying to determine, do they have it all? How many cells do they have in Belgium? It's just -- this could be the tip of the iceberg.

And there are more cells out there that they do or don't know about. And it's not just Belgium's problem. These individuals and foreign fighters have come back all over. They have come back to every country in Europe, and the United States, and Canada, and Australia. This is not isolated. It's just that, at the moment, the tip of the spear seems to be France and Belgium. So, this could be -- if it's the game-changer that it appears to be, as Paul has said, it's a very bad sign.

BERMAN: All right, Tom Fuentes, Paul Cruickshank, stand by, many more questions about the raids inside Belgium. We will be right back.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: Just about the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN.

We're all over this breaking story out of Verviers in Brussels. I'm Brooke Baldwin here in New York, my colleague John Berman in Paris.

And let me just set this all up for you, in case you're just joining us. We're really focusing in on this anti-terrorism raid that was carried out, again, in this town of Verviers. We have heard from that office of the federal prosecutor out of Brussels and we have learned that a number of Belgian counterterrorism officials and police honed in on this one location, perhaps an apartment complex, where they had gotten word that there was an operational cell, a group of individuals who they say had traveled to Syria to train and had been directed by ISIS to go back and carry out a terror attack in Belgium.

We know in the wake of this anti-terror raid that two of these terror suspects were killed. One has been detained. And bigger picture, again, according to some of our reporting from Jim Sciutto and also from officials in Brussels, we know that 10 different searches have been carried out, not just in Verviers, but also in Brussels and at least one or two other cities, just to give you the fuller perspective, as, of course, Europe is on the edge in the wake of what happened eight days ago in Paris.