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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Ohio Man Planned Massacre in D.C.; Suspects Being Investigated for Ties to Paris Terrorists; Web of Terror and Money Expands Beyond France

Aired January 15, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Imagine the "Charlie Hebdo" rampage playing out on the steps of the U.S. Capitol. Allegedly this man did imagine it. Not a copycat attack, but a massacre of a U.S. government official. And then several more officials, one after the other, as they ran from the building, all in the name of jihad. His name is Christopher Lee Cornell, though the feds say his Twitter name was Raheel Ubaydah. And when his alleged beginnings went beyond the tweeting stage, the feds shut him down. And this is what it looked like when they did just that. That's Mr. Cornell on the sidewalk outside of a Cincinnati gun shop right after he had purchased two rifles and 600 rounds of ammunition. And, tomorrow, he's going to ask a federal judge to let him bond out of jail pending trial on terrorism charges.

Today, I want to talk about those charges, about the suspect and about how all of this came to light with my CNN colleague, Susan Candiotti.

Susan, this is just an unbelievable story. How did it all begin and how did they know what he was up to, allegedly?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, according to this criminal complaint that we're looking at, it looks like it all came -- started to come together last summer because this young man set up some Twitter accounts. And the documents state that he was posting videos about ISIS and support of that, making comments. And then a confidential informant gets involved. Now, this is someone who admittedly is trying to cut a deal for himself with authorities. He gets involved with the FBI and then the informant and this young man start communicating with each other. Eventually, that leads to two meetings and the details of this plot, the complaint says, where he wants to buy weapons and then setoff pipe bombs at the Capitol and then attack people, shooting them as they go running for their lives outside of the Capitol building.

How did it all come down? Well, after these series of meetings, the young man goes into a gun shop in the Cincinnati area yesterday and buys, as you said, the two rifles. And as soon as he leaves, they take him down.

What's interesting to note is that the gun shop owner was told about this, he says, about a week in advance, told by the FBI that this young man was going to come in and buy two weapons and that it was OK to make the sale. So the gun shop owner had some knowledge ahead of time, Ashleigh.

But what's very interesting to me in part is that when they took him down, the FBI did not allow him to get all the way to Washington, follow him there, which might be an indication that they might not have thought there was anyone else involved in this. Certainly a law enforcement source tells us, Ashleigh, that there is no indication that this young man had any contact, direct linkage, with ISIS or ISIL.

BANFIELD: All right, Susan Candiotti reporting for us. Thank you for that.

I want to bring in my lawyer, senior legal analyst Mel Robbins, HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson, and then joining us from Santa Barbara, senior advisor to the president of Rand Corporation and retired U.S. Army Green Beret, Brian Jenkins.

Brian, if I could begin with you. You have written extensively on the lone wolf versus the stray dog theory on these kinds of self- radicalized people, if that is what Christopher Lee Cornell actually is, and that's what the allegations are. When you look at the profile, when you look at Susan Candiotti's reporting on this person, how does this fit into the grander scheme of the kinds of threats that we've seen play out before?

BRIAN JENKINS, TERRORISM ANALYST, RAND CORP.: Well, each one of these episodes is different, but this one does conform to the general pattern that we have seen. First of all, most of the alleged plots that have been uncovered by the authorities that have led to arrests have involved a single individual, about 68 percent of them. And so that's typical. We have a young man here. We don't know all of the details of his biography. We'll learn more about that.

A plot is a -- a plot begins to evolve. A confidential informant or an undercover police officer picks up information about this plot. When it goes beyond talk and when it comes to the point where the individual is actually acquiring the material, in this case weapons and ammunition, to carry out the attack, then there's a strong pressure to move in. While the plot may have involved him going all the way to Washington, once a person has the weapons, they could decide to change their plan at the last minute and do something else.

BANFIELD: And important to note that this takedown was in Cincinnati. There was no travel to Washington. And the authorities say that no one in Washington was at any risk all the way along as they kept their eye on this alleged terrorist.

But I want you all to listen to this young man's father. He spoke with my colleague Carol Costello just a short time ago and talked about who his son is, at least to him and to his wife, talking about an aimless and impressionable kid who was effectively just a mamma's boy. Have a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN CORNELL, FATHER OF OHIO TERROR SUSPECT: He's not an informant. What he was is a person that had criminal charges pending and is a snitch. He became a snitch for the FBI. And I'm telling you, my son -- I'm not - I'm not saying he's a saint. He's 20 years old, going on 16. He's a big kid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, Joey and Mel, I want you to dove tail off that. The father effectively said there was an FBI informant and a snitch who effectively was trying to clear himself by setting up his son. He's certainly not calling his own son a snitch and an FBI informant. He's saying there was someone else doing this and that it was entrapment. How hard is that to prove, Mel?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's nearly impossible to prove. Let me set this up for you. So if this kid is going to argue the defense of entrapment, he now has the burden. And here's what he's got to prove. He's got to basically say the entire plot was the government agent's idea. That this snitch is the one who came up with the idea. He's also got to prove that he was not predisposed to do this.

Now, this is interesting. There was a report put out by the Columbia Law School's Human Rights Institute, Ashleigh. In -- since 9/11, the federal government has convicted over 500 people in these kind of terrorism cases. Fifty percent of these resulted from informant-based convictions, just like in this case. Thirty percent of those involved a sting operation, just like in this case. In none, none was there ever a successful defense for entrapment.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Entrapment, yes.

ROBBINS: It's very difficult to prove.

BANFIELD: Joey, I'm going to get you to jump on this in a moment.

JACKSON: Sure. Sure.

BANFIELD: But, Brian Jenkins, I just want to read you the two charges and I want to get you to weigh in on whether these sound very familiar to you in your line of work and what you study. Attempted killing of a U.S. government officer. And let's remember, Brian, he was in Cincinnati in the takedown. He was nowhere near Washington at the time. And possession of firearm in furtherance of attempted crime of violence. Is that pretty much standard operating procedure, these charges, or should we expect other ones to follow?

JENKINS: Well, there may be further charges, and then as this thing moves toward trial. And ultimately, by the way, these charges will be disputed in a court of law. There will be a judge, perhaps a jury as well, depending on whether he elects to have a trial with a jury. And there will be discussions about which one - which of these charges they actually will go forward with and which they will not. But, ultimately, a judge and jury will act as the auditor in the case. But the charges are fairly typical.

BANFIELD: Fairly typical. So with that, Joey Jackson, I get the possession of firearm and

furtherance of an attempted crime of violence. I'm not sure I can see all the evidence so far. Again, the burden of the evidence that a jury would have to actually deal with, attempted killing of a U.S. government officer. Could it not be argued he was fantasizing?

JACKSON: Well, they're going to make a lot of arguments. They being, of course, his defense attorneys. But just backing up a big, what the defense attorneys will say is that the law provides that mere preparation is never enough. And there was substantial preparation that was engaged here like, what, like the purchasing of ammunition, the purchasing of firearms, the drafting out of maps, the plot, the working with the informants. So certainly that was that.

But at the same time the government is going to say, Ashleigh, we're in a position to keep Americans safe. We're in a position to act and act now. We have no burden or obligation to wait until he endangers Congress by letting him go to Washington D.C., and the burden on us is to demonstrate that he took a substantial step. And, arguably, he did take that step, meeting with the --

BANFIELD: By buying the weapons.

ROBBINS: Yes.

JACKSON: Absolutely. Buying the weapons, meeting with the informant, to otherwise articulate what his plan was and otherwise make a substantial step towards the carrying out of that plan. So the fact that he's in his hometown, as opposed to standing in front of the Capitol, I think will be meaningless in terms of the analysis of whether he took a substantial step or not.

BANFIELD: And I have a feeling that we are only at the beginning of hearing what the evidence in this case is.

ROBBINS: Yes.

BANFIELD: My guess is there will be tapes and there will be incredible material on those tapes.

JACKSON: Oh, plenty.

ROBBINS: Well, they knew where he was going to go to buy the guns.

BANFIELD: Yes.

ROBBINS: They actually tipped off -

BANFIELD: They were listening in.

ROBBINS: Yes.

BANFIELD: More than likely recording that as well. Which, if it becomes evidence, we would hopefully be privy to.

I want to thank Brian Jenkins. I'd like to ask you to stick around, if you can, Brian. And also my attorneys, Mel and Joey, thank you.

JACKSON: Of course.

BANFIELD: Stick around as well. Lots more to come.

Now to the terror attacks in Paris. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry has just landed there. Yes, someone from the American administration has gone to France. So, we'll give you more on his mission coming up in a moment.

And then also more possible suspects being investigated for possible connections to the terrorists behind the Paris attacks. This as the web of terror continues to unravel. Details that are so surprising. Live from Paris, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Secretary of State John Kerry is now in Paris. He is the highest administration official in the United States to travel there specifically to show American solidarity with France after last week's terror attacks and manhunt. Secretary Kerry arrived in Paris just a few minutes ago from Bulgaria. He plans to meet with the French president tomorrow. His office says he will, quote, "reiterate the support of the United States for the French people."

And now to the investigation itself. Police in Belgium say a man they have in custody may be connected to the Paris terror attacks. Here's what we know about him, and sad to say it is not very much. Police say he had papers linking him to the type of gun used to kill a police officer in Paris and that he is quote, "known to police." We'll have much more on this part of the investigation when we know more about it as well.

And this man in that picture is being buried today in a small town outside of Paris. He's Police Officer Frank Brinsolaro. He's one of the policemen shot dead outside the office of "Charlie Hebdo" last week. The French president spoke at an Arab institute today in Paris and he urged people in his country to not loop terrorists together with, quote, "all Muslims."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, FRANCE (through translator): We have to remind ourselves that Islam is compatible with democracy, that we must refuse mixing up and confusions and in France, the French people who are Muslim have the same rights, the same duties as all citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Live to Paris now and CNN's John Berman, how is standing by.

So, John, as we look into this investigation, the tentacles seem to be spreading far out from Paris. Exactly where are they going?

JOHN BERMAN, ANCHOR, CNN'S "AT THIS HOUR": Indeed, the web keeps growing, Ashleigh. You mentioned this arrest in Belgium. Well, there is also a connection now to Madrid in Spain, Amedy Coulibaly, the man who attacked the kosher supermarket. Spanish officials now say Coulibaly and his girlfriend, Hayat Boumeddiene, drove to Madrid a week before the attack. Actually, December 31st. They drove to Madrid. There was another man with them. They spent three days there. Coulibaly came back to Paris. Boumeddiene went on to Istanbul.

What did they do for those three days in Madrid? Was it a last vacation before he was headed back to his near certain death in this suicide-like attack that he was planning? Was it because they were meeting with people there, perhaps an extended terrorist cell, or was it just a way to get her out of the country to an airport where she could fly on and Istanbul and then ultimately head to Syria?

But what you see here, Ashleigh, as you say, is this expanding web. Countries like Spain now involved. Belgium, where perhaps Coulibaly got his weapons. Bulgaria. There was a man who knew the Kouachi brothers who attacked the "Charlie Hebdo" offices behind me. A man who was arrested in Bulgaria. Security sources tell me he was trying to get to Syria. Very, very difficult to follow all the angles here. And the French now relying on countries all over Europe as this investigation grows by the day.

BANFIELD: So, John, you know, we've been hearing these headlines of, you know, more than 50 people arrested and effectively the description is sort of in support of terrorism or speaking in support or displaying some kind of support of terrorism. But how many of those arrests -- or do we even know the answer to this -- how many of those arrests pertain to this particular attack and perhaps a connection to the operations of it and how many of those are just people exercising inappropriate, what should be free speech, but inappropriate speech?

BERMAN: Well, the issue here in France is they have very different laws, obviously, than we have in the United States. All over Europe they have different laws than we have in the United States. It's against the law here, Ashleigh, to speak out in support of terror or to even condone terror. You can do graffiti on a wall, in some cases perhaps, could be actionable. There was a French comic, a famous French comic, (INAUDIBLE), who was detained and arrested. What he said is, "je suis Charlie Coulibaly." What he was saying is he's connected to France and also connected to his Algerian roots, the man who carried out the attack on the kosher market.

We believe that most of the arrests, or detentions, as you say, have happened since the attacks here. It's a crackdown since then. Unclear whether each one of those instances were somehow condoning or speaking out in support of what happened specifically. But, again, what they're trying to do here is create an atmosphere officials say where hate speech, as they call it, is not welcome, hence they say they will keep this stringent interpretation of the laws up going forward.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Our John Berman reporting live for us from Paris, where it is just after 6:00 in the evening.

And we're also following the money. More on how a loan from a bank and a possible arms deal are certainly helping investigators to link the suspects in the Paris attacks to perhaps other terror groups. We'll go down that flowchart for you after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: As French investigators piece together the terror network behind the Paris attacks, there is a tangled web of money and suspects that seems to be emerging. Have a look at your screen. This lays out what we know about the paths of the terrorists behind last week's barbaric killings.

U.S. officials say when "Charlie Hebdo" gunman Cherif Kouachi traveled to Yemen in 2011, he returned to France carrying as much as $20,000. It was given to him by an al Qaeda affiliate to use for the attacks. In the meantime, Amedy Coulibaly reportedly took out a loan for about $7,000 just this last December from a bank in northern France.

This morning, we are also learning about more possible suspects. Somebody may have driven Coulibaly to the kosher grocery store where he killed four hostages during a standoff with the police. And Coulibaly and his partner, Hayat Boumeddiene, may have received assistance from someone else when they traveled to Spain just a few weeks ago.

I want to bring back Brian Jenkins, a senior advisor to the president of Rand Corporation and an authority on terrorism, and also CNN national security analyst Juliette Kayyem.

All right. So, Brian, if I can start with you. When you look at the trail of the money, the first thing that stands out is the fact that these guys were able, apparently, to carry that kind of money back from Yemen and then have it for several years. Does that sound like a big lapse in the kind of financial structures and agencies that we've set up to stop that very thing from happening?

JENKINS: Well, the -- the measures that have been put into place are primarily to prevent the transfer of money and they know that. And if in fact money was transferred to them recently, let's say from al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in Yemen, then that would be a huge gap in the intelligence efforts. If, on the other hand, they carried actual cash with them coming back into the country, then that smuggling cash in, that takes place all the time.

What we see in many of these terrorist operations though is also a lot of cell financing through ordinary criminality, through theft, drug trafficking, credit card fraud, things of that sort. So the question is, did large sums of money come in from the outside, in which case there was a gap in not finding it, or was this primarily financed through their own efforts.

BANFIELD: All right. So that we'll wait to find out just exactly what happened with that 20,000, whether it actually just contraband in a suitcase, because that kind of thing can slip through.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Right.

BANFIELD: But, Juliette, the notion that Amedy Coulibaly actually got a $7,000 loan just a few months ago -

KAYYEM: Right.

BANFIELD: I'm not exactly clear whether he was as key on any kind of watch list as the Kouachi brothers, but if he had the association of people of their nature and of their ilk, and they had been watched, and there seemed to be a lapse, shouldn't a bank know at least that at one time this is a bad guy.

KAYYEM: Right. Right. And this just shows the gaps that are always occurring in intelligence sharing. So the foreign intelligence -- French foreign intelligence agencies know something. The domestic intelligence agencies know something. And the bank doesn't know it. So, you know, their standards are -

BALDWIN: But the bank knows if I'm late for my utility bill and it just doesn't seem right that they don't know that this guy might have been watched by --

KAYYEM: But their - but part of it is -

BANFIELD: A government.

KAYYEM: I know. But part of it is you just simply, as an intelligence agencies, you simply don't want to be sharing information with everyone because some guy is a suspect or some other - or let's just, you know, be fair here, and a lot of people are innocent. So the sharing of intelligence information is always going to be controlled.

The challenge with money is, innocent and guilty people always have cash, right? I mean it's not like an AK-47 where you can think, OK, why is this guy buying AK-47s. It's (INAUDIBLE). You and I use it and terrorists use it and that is why it's so hard to trace, especially in sums that are only about $7,000, right. It may see - it's a big number but it's not big by -

BANFIELD: It's not an eye-popping number.

KAYYEM: It's not $100,000 where some guy's trying to get out.

BANFIELD: And nor is 20,000, I think, for people who study terrorist links (ph).

KAYYEM: No. No, it would not raise money eyebrows.

BANFIELD: So let me ask you this, Brian, just the trailing the weaponing purchases. Purchasing weapons in the United States is not nearly as difficult as it is in some places like Canada and in like some European countries. Does it make it far more difficult to do the kind of work that the French are doing to stop that kind of an attack here in the United States? I mean buying an assault weapon isn't so tricky and it doesn't raise as many eyebrows here.

JENKINS: No, it doesn't. Of course, we do have to keep in mind that although it's more difficult to obtain these weapons legally in most European countries, the fact is that there are existing black markets where these weapons are available and we have seen thing like AK-47s, for example, regularly used in high-value heists in France, in other terrorist attacks. So they are available, especially to someone who has criminal connections. In this country, of course, to obtain an assault rifle or other kinds of fire power, is much easier.

BANFIELD: All right. Brian Jenkins, thank you for that. Juliette Kayyem, thank you as well.

KAYYEM: Thank you.

BANFIELD: And before we move on, if there is any silver lining anywhere, it is maybe the fitting reward that the hero at the kosher market is going to receive. The government of France says that it's going to award French citizenship to Lassana Bathily, a Muslim immigrant from Mali, who saved 15 people by hiding them in a walk-in freezer. He then made his way outside and told police what he had done. The citizenship is great, but Bathily's many admirers think he deserve a whole lot more than that. About 300,000 people have signed a petition on change.org to have Bathily awarded the Legion of Honor. And let's remember, Bathily was also Muslim saving Jews.

While focusing on this historic act, or at least this historic and horrific act in Paris, another terrorist group, Boko Haram, has slaughtered as many as 2,000 people, laying waste to an entire village in Nigeria. The image on your screen should say so much, but just how this attack was part of a group's bigger plan? Well, that's a whole other story and that's next.

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