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"Charlie Hebdo" Founder Criticizes Charb; Yemen Emerges as Go- To Place for Terrorists Seeking Support, Training for Attacks; U.S. Knew of Plot in Belgian for Weeks; Duke University Reverses Call to Prayer Decision.

Aired January 16, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The editor of "Charlie Hebdo," Stephane Charbonnier, was laid to rest today. But as his loved ones mourn, a founder of the magazine, right behind me, where there was such slaughter last week, one of the founders is criticizing him. Henri Roussel wrote of Charbonnier, quote, "What use was it to drag the team into a game of one-upmanship? I'm upset at you, Charb. May your soul rest in peace"

While that happened, a photographer with French news agency, AFP, is recovering today after he was shot during a protest in Pakistan denouncing "Charlie Hebdo" cartoons.

Joining me now, mostly to talk about the criticism of Charb, laid to rest today, is Kianoush Ramezani, a cartoonist that fled Iran, came to Paris.

Because you faced political persecution there. You knew Charb and many men and women that worked here in "Charlie Hebdo" behind us. Do you think it's a fair criticism that Henri Roussel was making today?

KIANOUSH RAMEZANI, IRANIAN CARTOONIST IN EXILE IN PARIS: I can understand him. His ex staff became the national heroes. His ex magazine became symbol for freedom of expression. I think he's upset that he's among this team right now. I believe he needs attention.

BERMAN: He made a specific criticism of the editor, Charb, and said he pushed the message too far. After the fire bombing a few years ago, he kept publishing cartoons offensive too some. Speculation is it led to attacks that happened behind us.

RAMEZANI: I cannot believe that. These cartoonists are crazy and independent. No one can have dragged them anywhere.

BERMAN: That was the interpretation that he led them to this. You knew a lot of people that worked under him. Charb said a few years ago he would rather die than live like a rat. He was willing to be killed for these cartoons and this thought he wanted to express. Did the others -- do the others who work in this magazine feel the same way?

RAMEZANI: I think yes. I think they knew what they were doing, and they know what they're doing. They believe what they're doing. I don't think that they're going to change or for example Charb changed their mind in any way. I can't believe that.

BERMAN: In a way what's happened, if he dragged them into anything, he's gone now. The other cartoonists and survivors still put a picture of Muhammad on the cover.

RAMEZANI: We believe in total expression of speech in an absolute total way. There's no exception or buts. It makes problems. We need to pay for it as well.

BERMAN: No exception, no buts. That's a universal statement. You can never go too far in satire?

RAMEZANI: I think this is an eternal fight that there will always be critics and people not happy. People who believe in freedom of expression in a total way, in an absolute way, of course sometimes they provoke, maybe sometimes draw something for example some religious people don't like.

BERMAN: There's a comic here in France who is been put in custody and arrested for making statements that condone terrorism. It's against the law here in France to make statements that condone or support terrorism or speak out in favor as this type of thing. Do you think that's fair? Do you think it's fair to detain him for making comments? He said essentially he was making a joke in a way connecting the French people also with the people that committed these acts.

RAMEZANI: Well, I don't know really. My personal point of view is that if you believe in freedom of expression -- he tried to make the same. At the same time, people were suffering of national kind of crime.

BERMAN: It could be insensitive but not illegal. You support free pure speech with no limitations when it comes to satire. Do you support the same with the ones like he made?

RAMEZANI: I'm for freedom of expression in total way. I wouldn't choose this at. It's the same for example that this guy who made this statement about Charb. I would wait to respect these guys who just went away. It's a very human reaction. Of course, we have freedom. At the same time, we have choice. We choose to have intelligence. Being free doesn't mean we can do whatever we want. We control ourselves.

BERMAN: Kianoush Ramezani, I appreciate you being with us.

An important discussion to have and I know one people in France are having and will have for some time to come. Appreciate it.

Next for us, as investigators race to uncover sleeper cells in France and Europe, some Jewish schools are closing temporarily as the terror threat grows. We're going to talk to members of the community and find out what they're doing to bolster their security. CNN's special live coverage continues right after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: I'm John Berman, live in Paris. Europe is on edge amid a spate of anti-terror raids in Jewish communities across Europe on high alert. Some Jewish schools reportedly shutting down temporarily. In Belgium, schools in Antwerp and in Brussels also shut today. That, as one group called for European gun laws to be loosened so guards at institutions could use and own firearms. This comes after the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin, Netanyahu, came here and offered refuge to European Jews following last week's carnage in France. He said, quote, "Israel is your home."

Joining me now, Nicolas Woloszko, at the French union of Jewish students.

Nicolas, thanks for being with us.

Let me ask you first off. Do you feel safe?

NICOLAS WOLOSZKO, FRENCH UNION OF JEWISH STUDENTS: There's a sizable threat here in France. It's hard to feel safe although the government is doing whatever can be done to protect us. I personally don't think that the Jewish people protecting synagogues should be wearing guns. People in France, people who aren't policemen and soldiers aren't carrying guns. I'm confident the government is doing whatever it needs to protect the Jews and Jewish places. That is why for a long time there have been policemen in front of every synagogue and Jewish school. Since the attacks took place, we have soldiers, heavily armed, in front of the synagogues and schools.

BERMAN: Do you think it's the right decision in Amsterdam for instance to shut down a school?

WOLOSZKO: I think it's good decision to definitely shut down schools. They will close for a while because of security problems. Now is not time to shut down schools. There's a strong Jewish presence especially in France. Now is not the time it's going to get to an end.

BERMAN: You can say strong Jewish presence in Europe and France and has been that presence centuries and centuries which is why I have heard so much concern and criticism of what Benjamin Netanyahu said when he came here to mourn those who were killed. I think everyone appreciated his presence and presence of all leaders here that day. He said to Jews of France, Israel is your home. I think there are Jews who I spoke to that said no, France is my home. My family has been here generations and generations. We need to fix the generation here not leave.

WOLOSZKO: Jewish people may want to go to Israel. That happens. I tell you what I think. I'm a French citizen. I'm very at large to my country. I'm not going to leave because I'm afraid, not going to leave in fear. If someone needs to leave, that's not Jews of France. If someone needs to leave, it's not us.

BERMAN: Does it make you sad when you see number of those immigrating to Israel, 7,000 over the last year, double the year before. Does that make you sad so see Jews leaving France?

WOLOSZKO: I'm not sad Jews are going to Israel. It must be digits are not overstated. That's less than 1 percent of the whole of the Jewish community. France is not Jews. Some Jews go to Israel or elsewhere. That's OK. I'm OK with that.

BERMAN: Where's the threat? What is direct threat to you? Is it comes from Muslims in this country, coming from radical jihad outside this country?

WOLOSZKO: I think the most important threat to Jews today in France lies in jihadi in general and radicalization of French men believing in values and start thinking killing Jews might be a good thing.

BERMAN: Nicolas Woloszko, great to have you with us. Great discussion. Appreciate it. Stay safe.

WOLOSZKO: Thank you very much.

BERMAN: Brianna, let's go back to you.

KEILAR: Thanks, John.

New details about a trip one of the brothers responsible for the massacre at "Charlie Hebdo" magazine took to Yemen. We'll take you there live.

Plus, news just in. We're hearing the U.S. intelligence community has been aware of this plot in Belgium for weeks. We have details ahead.

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KEILAR: Now that al Qaeda and Arabian Peninsula has claimed responsibility for the massacre at "Charlie Hebdo," a lot of attention is focused on Middle Eastern country of Yemen. It's emerged as a go- to place for terrorists seek support and training for carried out attacks.

CNN's senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, is in the capital.

Nick, why is this country the one of choice?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Because really I'm standing in a failed or failing state. It's wrecked by internal civil conflict for years. They've seen a peak in last few months where one tribe swept into the capital and pushed a side what some say what was left of a government here. That turmoil has simply meant are there isn't an Army or police or much of a presidential kind of administration to suppress al Qaeda here. It's been part of the infrastructure, set up training camps, had key leading leadership figures in further areas here. That is the reason Yemen is such a focus. There's been drone strikes here. The Paris attacks, called, twistedly, the Blessed Attack of Paris. We saw a few days ago in the video that was 11 minutes long. They say they planned it. And a number of officials now -- one in particular speaking to us today said the brothers had been, certainly the older brother, had been here on and off since August 2009. Two or three trips, the older brother. Officials suggest the younger may have come here in 2011 using his older brother's passport. A remarkable piece of a jigsaw they have to put together, investigators. It may be there was no further comment between Yemen and brothers after 2011 when one of the people set to organize the plot, Anwar al-Awlaki was killed.

KEILAR: You describe Yemen as this free-for-all place for terrorists. How difficult does that make it to investigate the AQAP's role in the attacks?

PATON WALSH: Very hard, indeed. I've heard today from one western diplomat, security services are losing hundreds of individuals in the fighting here. That is fighting within al Qaeda between the earlier tribe ascending into power here. Different struggles for power in Yemen society for decades coming to a head in the past years. It's that turmoil that makes it hard for what there is left of Yemen intelligence to piece together through things. There's not much of national insurance data a base or documentation system here. They occasionally look at immigration database at the airport. That's why the 2009 dates came. The real question is it seems to be a reverse situation. Western intelligence finds out things that lead them back here and at times offers information to those that try to add extra details to it. Sometimes Yemen tries to alert the West to people they think are the problem. Sometimes it's listened to, sometimes, like in the case of the Kouachi brothers, they become one of far too many suspects French didn't have the man power to keep under constant surveillance.

KEILAR: Nick Paton Walsh, there for us. Thank you so much.

We're hearing the U.S. intelligence community has been aware of that plot in Belgium for weeks.

We have Barbara Starr live at the Pentagon.

Barbara, we're finding out officials had prior knowledge about this planned attack.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, good afternoon. What we are learning from several officials across several different parts of the intelligence community, they knew some of the things Belgians were coping with. They were sharing intelligence and information with them. This had been going on several weeks and, of course, reached a pitch last night when the Belgians launched the raid because there was very specific intelligence that something might be imminent. U.S. officials have been telling me they've been working with Belgians on this plot some time now, even before the Paris attacks.

But here's what's really interesting. U.S. officials won't say exactly how much they knew, what they knew, and when they knew it. That is because there's a good deal of concern, as CNN reported, that there may be other plots, other attackers out there. They don't want to show their hand too much about what they know, they tell me. It may not -- on the surface, maybe it's not a surprise the U.S. intelligence community was sharing what it could, what it knew with the European intelligence service counterparts. I think it really goes to the critical concern there was something here in real time that posed a direct threat. It underscores officials saying the constant worry now that you have ISIS fighters coming out of Syria returning to their home countries in Europe and plotting and planning across many fronts to launch attacks there. A very worrisome situation they say -- Brianna?

KEILAR: That's what we heard from the federal prosecutor there, was that it was maybe hours, maybe a day or two away. They jumped on when things looked to be operational.

Barbara Starr, at the Pentagon, thank you.

STARR: Sure.

KEILAR: Let's talk about this. Duke University is reversing the decision to let Muslim students use the iconic chapel bell tower for the Friday weekly Call to Prayer. It was supposed to start today. And it's an unfamiliar sound on campus -- or a familiar, I should say. This campus is in the Bible Belt. For some, it was unwelcome.

That is Franklin Graham, son of evangelical icon, Billy Graham. He encouraged donors to withhold funding in protest.

Duke officials said this to explain the reversal.

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MICHAEL SCHOENFIELD, VICE PRESIDENT FOR PUBLIC AFFAIRS, DUKE UNIVERSITY: The number and the tone of the -- sort of random calls coming in were pretty loud and pretty nasty.

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KEILAR: I'm joined now by Young America foundation spokeswoman, Ashley Pratte. We have Harris Zafar, of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, USA.

Thanks to both of you for coming on for what I hope is a good discussion here.

I want to ask you first, Ashley, you wrote a column basically opposing Duke's initial move to have the chapel bell used for the Call to Prayer. You said that the move seemed tilted against Christian values. Explain why you think that.

ASHLEY PRATTE, SPOKESWOMAN, YOUNG AMERICA FOUNDATION: Sure. Well first of all Young America's Foundation would have been in full support of this had we thought it would expand religious free freedom for all religions on campus, which was not the case. It was very tilted against Judeo-Christian values, which Duke University has a long history of doing. They removed Chick-Fil-A from campus when they received e-mails from students regarding same-sex marriage, people who supported it on campus and wanted Chick-Fil-A removed. Pro-life students had to cancel an event on campus because the women's center there wouldn't let them host it. And then the Palestinian Solidarity Movement national conference was held at Duke in 2004. That is very anti-Israel. So why are they only supporting religious freedom for some and not all students?

KEILAR: I want you respond to that Harris.

HARRIS ZAFAR, AHMADIYYA MUSLIM COMMUNITY, USA: Well, for us within the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, we were actually surprised Duke even allowed, agreed to this Call to Prayer off and on campus. Within our youth campuses around the country, we are never really pushing for this. That wasn't a story for me. The story became the rhetoric that we started to hear from the likes of Franklin Graham, who sounded more like American Taliban more than anything because of anti-Islamic, anti-Muslim sentiment we started to hear.

If Duke University, at the first request, said, sorry we can't do this, for me, I would have brushed it off, no big deal. The story here is under the pressure of those saying, no longer give funding to Duke, even though they continually have Christian services, use the bell on a daily basis, to somehow vilify us as being butchers, that we're rapist, that we behead Christians, that's not the truth of Muslim and that's what we want to confront.

KEILAR: I want to throw out statistics. There's 700 Muslim students at the university of about 14,000. This chapel bell is used I believe daily. I think at the beginning and end of Christian services there. It's used for special occasions. What we're talking about was using the bell once a week, right, for Friday prayers?

PRATTE: Every Friday.

KEILAR: Every Friday, a Call to Prayer on the very important day in the Muslim religion.

I want to talk about some of what Franklin Graham said. He did more, Ashley, than encourage donors to withhold funds. He made controversial statements on social immediate I can't go, including this post. He said, "As Christianity is being excluded from the public square and followers of Islam are raping, butchering, and beheading Christians, Jews and anyone that doesn't submit to their Sharia Islamic law, Duke is promoting this in the name of religious pluralism."

When I listen to that, I don't think that's very unifying language. That seems to be painting with one brush, Muslims and then extremists who are depending -- depending on who you ask, fundamentals Muslims, or Islamists posing as Muslims.

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KEILAR: What do you think about his language?

PRATTE: That's entirely true there that the extremist is Islam there. And the issue is those things are happening.