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Terror Crackdown Moves Beyond Europe; "Charlie Hebdo" Magazine Enrages Some; AQAP Claims Responsibility For "Charlie Hebdo" Slaughter

Aired January 17, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: We're also getting news of clashes over the latest "Charlie Hebdo" magazine cover depicting the Prophet Muhammad.

In Niger, French flags are torched and burned as police try to gain control of protesters.

And now this terror crackdown has moved beyond Europe. Two suspected terrorists arrested in Yemen both with suspected ties to Al-Qaeda. Of course, we know that one, possibly both of the Kouachi brothers responsible for the "Charlie Hebdo" shooting, are thought to have train inside of Yemen.

We're also now hearing the older brother, Said, has just been buried in an unmarked grave in eastern France.

Let's go straight to Jim Bittermann. He has been covering this from when it all happened on January 7th.

Jim, thank you for being with us. What can you tell us about Said Kouachi, the older of the brothers, being buried in the town that he was from? What do we know about that, who was there?

JIM BITTERMAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it wasn't attended by anybody. It was done overnight and kind of in secret. No one knows where he is. He's in an unmarked grave. And basically because he lived in the city for Rass (ph) a time and the mayor had no choice.

The local city officials didn't want this to happen. They would rather have had him buried somewhere else. But according to the French law, they -- if a person lives in a community he can then be buried in that community.

The same thing is happening with his brother who we think is going to be buried in an unmarked grave, this is Cherif Kouachi, in a town of (INAUDIBLE) which is close suburb of Paris, the west of Paris. And with the third terrorist, Amedy Coulibaly, in fact, they have not decided where he will be buried. He may actually be taken back to Mali as one of the options, taken back to Mali where his parents are from. He never lived there but nonetheless, there's so much controversy over where these people should be buried.

What part of the controversy here -- another little part of the controversy here was today, there was an extreme right wing group that was talking about holding a march tomorrow, anti-Muslim march in the streets of Paris. They've been banned from carrying out that march, poppy.

HARLOW: Also, Jim, I know in the past few hours we've gotten this development that two French men, two French citizens, have been arrested in Yemen for connection with AQAP, so Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, saying they were suspected of offering logistical support to the terror organization.

What do we know on the front? Do we know if there was any connection to these brothers or to Coulibaly?

BITTERMAN: At the moment we don't know if there's a connection. But the fact is that Yemen is where at least one of the brothers and perhaps both brothers were trained in weapons handling which they did with some skill the other day when they committed their bloody attack. So, I think that's something they will be looking at quite closely.

There's no question about it that there's a lot of French young people out there, the interior minister says up to 1,000, who are jihadis who they classify as people capable of going off, believing in the cause of Muslim extremism, and getting themselves trained up. So that there would be a couple of those people would be in Yemen and be part of Al- Qaeda of the Arabian Peninsula. I don't think there's too surprising anybody but they do tend to stick together, the ones that speak the same language stick together in these groups. So the fact is that they may have known the Kouachi brothers.

HARLOW: Jim Bittermann live in Paris this evening. Jim, thank you very much for your reporting throughout.

And as you can tell there are many moving parts to this story. Let's get some expert perspective from Fawaz Gerges. He is chair of the contemporary Middle East studies with the London School of Economics, also author of the book "the new Middle East, protest and revolution in the Arab world."

Thank you for being here.

FAWAZ GERGES, AUTHOR, "THE NEW MIDDLE EAST": Pleasure.

HARLOW: When you look at this, you've got increased security all across Europe. You've got military troops out on the streets with police officers, thousands of them in France right now. But it begs the question, and I ask you this for the historical perspective that you have, do we not need to start looking more and more Atlanta tacking radical -- radicalization, radical extremists much earlier on than forces can do on the streets of France, for example?

GERGES: You know, Poppy, it is easy said than done because there are many unknown variables about this particular phenomenon, what we call the celaby (ph) jihadi ideology or radical Islamism orgy haddism (ph), whatever we call it. And that's why the security establishments in France, in Belgium, in the UK where I am, and I am extremely anxious because we do not know the nature of the danger that threatens Europe. There's a great deal of uncertainty, Poppy, a great deal of anxiety. There are three major networks that seem to be really alarmed the security establishment in European countries and the United States.

You just were -- you've been talking to Jim about the Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula that is in yes, men and you talked about the arrest of two Frenchmen who basically who allegedly provided support for the Kouachi brothers, Cherif and Said.

On average, just to give your viewers a context, you have between 2,500 and 5,000 western men who are fighting in Iraq and Syria and Yemen. Let's say 2,500. A few hundred have returned to Europe. Another few hundred are planning to return to the UK, to France, to Belgium, to Germany. You have about 100 Americans who are fighting in Iraq and Syria. So this is very few people realize what kind of threat these particular would basically present to European security. Obviously some of the arrests we have seen in the last 24 hours are basically proactive. Potential suspects that could basically present a security risk.

The second nature of the threat is what we call the lone wolves. The lone wolves who are basically marginalized, disadvantaged, who fall under the prey of militants of Al-Qaeda variety. Again, the network in Paris, the Kouachi brothers and the kosher supermarket attacker were part of the -- a network, lone wolves, who basically went to Yemen, some of whom, either Said or Cherif, in 2009, 2011. So this tells you a great deal about the complexity and the difficulty putting your finger on the threat.

HARLOW: Absolutely. No question about that.

Let me ask you this. What we have seen is a real shift to Yemen in terms of where some of this ideology is coming from, where the training is happening, the Kouachi brothers both potentially believed to have been trained there, not Afghanistan as it was as much post 9/11.

Obviously, the Yemen -- economy of Yemen is on the brink. Many, many young people unemployed. That is part of this, driving part of this, in terms of it not being a stable state. But what do you think is significant about the focal point of this being Yemen now?

GERGES: There is nothing surprising, poppy, about the Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula which is basically a network, an affiliate of the Al-Qaeda central. That is the Al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, Ayman Zawahiri.

The United States has been waging all out war against Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula since 2002, 24 hours a day, literally. This is one of the most ambitious Al-Qaeda groups that exist in the world today. This would come probably to your viewers as a surprise.

The Al-Qaeda affiliate in Yemen is more ambitious and more dangerous than Al-Qaeda parent organization, of Ayman Zawahiri today in Afghanistan and Pakistan because it has plotted several attacks. It is one of the few groups Al-Qaeda groups that has plotted several attacks against the American homeland and basically they were basically discovered by the U.S. security forces.

And again, the attack in Paris is obviously either directly or indirectly linked to Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. So the focus on Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula is not new. What is really new about Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, it has finally succeeded in other directly or indirectly carrying out a successful attack tack in the heart of Europe that is France and obviously there are other potential attacks in the making and that's why the anxiety in Europe at this particular moment.

HARLOW: Fawaz, thank you for the perspective. I have a lot more questions for you including talking about ISIS and AQAP possibly coming together and strengthening as they merge rather than battle one another. We'll have you on later in the program to talk about that and much more.

Fawaz Gerges joining us from London. Thank you.

Well, the "Charlie Hebdo" magazine cover enraged some, of course, and at the same time it inspired a huge show of support for the magazine and for free speech across the world. Did the magazine cross the line or not? We're going to talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: The attack on the "Charlie Hebdo" magazine and the employees there was an appalling tragedy, one that led people around the world to rise up in defense of free speech. But there's also been a passionate argument that the magazine crossed the line with some of its covers.

We're taking a look at what played out in Pakistan, this one country that saw fierce demonstration against "Charlie Hebdo."

Joining me now to talk about that, Ross Douthat, who is CNN political commentator and an op-ed columnist for the "New York Times."

Thanks for being here, Ross.

ROSS DOUTHAT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure. Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: You wrote a fascinating opinion piece in the times, the blasphemy we need. I want to read part of this that stood out to me. It writes, quote "if a large enough group of someone is willing to kill you for saying something, then it's something that almost certainly needs to be said, because otherwise the violent have veto power over liberal civilization."

You argue in this that laws against blasphemy are illiberal. But you also say that there is a line. So why don't you lay that out for us.

DOUTHAT: Well, sure. I mean, I think, you know, one of the basic points of having a protected right to free speech of the kind we do in the United States is that you're supposed to be protecting things that people say that might offend other people. There's no point in having a first amendment in that sense if it doesn't protect some kinds of offensive speech, even extremely offensive speech.

Now, like you said, I think there are lines, but there are lines of culture and politeness and decency. They shouldn't be legal lines. So you can say, well, of course, you shouldn't necessary go around (INAUDIBLE) offending people. And I would not want to live in a society where everybody did that. But at the same time, you need protections when people do those kinds of things.

And then to get to the part you quoted from my piece, in situations where people are trying to shut down speech through violence, you really do have to make a particularly strong defense of the people saying things publicly. Because otherwise, you know, otherwise the system essentially breaks down.

HARLOW: And thus we saw play out with "Charlie Hebdo," the magazine, issuing that new issue and the new cover with the Prophet Muhammad on the front in the wake of the attacks.

You also write liberalism doesn't depend on everyone offending everyone else all time.

So to that point, take a listen to what the Pope said this week about insulting religion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS, HEAD OF CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people's faith. One cannot make fun of faith.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: What do you think? What's your reaction to that?

DOUTHAT: Well, there are always translation issues, whenever Pope Francis makes comments on controversial issues. So I don't -- I don't want to disagree too sharply. But I think the idea, the phrase cannot is wrong. It's just not -- it's just not the way liberal societies in the 21st century or the 20th century for that matter are organized and should be organized.

Now, if the pope is saying you should not generally out of politeness make fun of people's religion, people's faith, then I agree with him. And I think that that's generally a good guide for both getting through life on a personal level but also dealing with complex, multi- cultural, multi-religious society.

But again, in a case like this where the reason "Charlie Hebdo" was publishing so many cartoons like this was precisely because of the threat of violence. They were trying to prove a political point. And when that kind of political point making is met by violence, you need to stand up for "Charlie Hebdo" and not for the offended parties.

HARLOW: So to that point, we have seen in the wake of all of this, a number of news organizations making the decision not to show either online or on television or in print the cover of "Charlie Hebdo" magazine. What is your take on that? I know you work partly for us here at CNN. We are not showing it, the "New York Times." But, you know, we even saw the economists printed in some countries and in some countries where this printed leave it out.

DOUTHAT: I mean, I would say that I'm very understanding of the issue of safety. And if I were personally responsible for the safety of a large news organization, I would probably you know, hesitate and agonize a long time over the decision.

With that being said, I think not publishing in this context is a big mistake. And it's something where, again, if you're not publishing something that is newsworthy that you would publish otherwise because of the threat of violence, then liberalism is losing and the people committing the violence win.

And you know, look, in the case of newspapers, if this were a controversy like over, you know, the image of the Madonna made with elephant dung that hung in the Brooklyn museum, for instance, that was very offensive to many Christian, myself included, I guess I would say. When that controversy was in the news, newspapers ran images of the controversial artwork. And obviously nobody or almost nobody hopefully was threatening them with violence.

HARLOW: But again, this came after a massacre.

DOUTHAT: Right. But I'm just saying it's the normal thing to do in this case, is to run the controversial image even if it offends somebody's religious faith. So if you're not doing it the only reason you're not doing it is because of violence. And then, again, in effect, you're saying that the violence works.

HARLOW: Ross, it is a fascinating article. I encourage our viewers to read it. It is blasphemy we need, "New York Times" opinion piece.

Ross, thank you for joining us. We appreciate. We'll get back to you a little bit later in the show.

Coming up next, have European countries failed their Muslim residents? And are they sowing the seeds of future attacks by failing to really integrate Muslims into their society? Could the same problem be emerging here in the United States? We will talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: France still reeling from last week's brazen terrorist attack will likely become a test case for Europe and for the world on integrating Muslims successfully, fully into every society. France has the largest Muslim population of any European country. And historically that has been a country of some extremes.

Let's bring back in Ross Douthat, op-ed columnist for the "New York Times," also CNN contributor. He is back with me, wrote a very interesting piece on Muslim assimilation in France. Also, Fawaz Gerges joins me again from London.

Thank you both for being here. Fawaz is the author of the book "the new Middle East, protest in

revolution in the new Arab world."

Ross, let go to you first. Give me a sense of the geopolitical landscape of France in terms of Muslims and non-Muslims and how they associate with one another. We can't make any generalizations, but you have written about this.

DOUTHAT: No generalizations? I mean, France is a country that has basically the largest Muslim population of any major European country. And it has sort of extremes of integration. And you saw that at work in the massacre and the nightmare in Paris where you both had -- you had, you know, violent terrorists committing acts of violent terror and then you also had French Muslim policemen dying in the attack. You had a Muslim saving people in, I believe, the kosher supermarket and so on. And in that sense it's sort of representative of the extremes there.

The fact that there is certain levels of integration that also coexists with a lot of exclusion and then a lot of economic problems that are common to Europe generally but that drive particular -- a particular sense of isolation among Muslim immigrants. HARLOW: Sure. So Fawaz, I want you to respond to that. But first,

let's listen to CIA director Leon Panetta, his exclusive interview with our Fareed Zakaria talking about this issue. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEON PANETTA, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: I think obviously that since 9/11 we have done a very good job of being able to improve our intelligence gathering capabilities, our law enforcement capabilities, our intelligence in terms of being able to track the particular threats that are out there. And clearly, our Muslim population has the opportunity to become citizens in this country, to integrate more fully into our society and that gives us an advantage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Fawaz, do you agree? Have we more successfully done that in the United States? If so, does that give us an advantage?

GERGES: Poppy, the American context is qualitatively different from that of Europe. The numbers of Muslims living in Europe in terms of population size are much higher than the United States. Take France, you and Ross were talking, you have five million Muslims living in France. They represent between 7.9 and eight, nine percent of the population.

Secondly, very important point, historically you're talking about different kinds of population. In Europe mainly this advantage and scale, they live on the fringe of society. Just to give you an idea of social economic context, almost 32 percent of Muslims in France are unemployed, 32 percent. The American economy is much more dynamic. American society, much more open, much more rather inclusive, and, of course, you have the historical colonial problems. So when you talk about North Africa, you're talking about Algeria where historically speaking you will know that you have a large Algerian community, still a very potent identity and imagination of the past. So multiple factors really contribute to making the Muslim community in Europe or elements of the Muslim community. Again, we should not generalize about this.

HARLOW: Absolutely. I think, Ross that Fawaz brings up a critical point. When you look at feeling disenfranchised and turning towards radicalization in whatever form, often that does has to do with a lack of ability to rise up the economic ladder, the lack of opportunity. Do you agree?

DOUTHAT: Yes. And you know, one of the great ironies of the situation is that France, when you think about French politics, there's deep polarization that's embodied both of the presence of radical Islam and also by the power of the far right, the national front led by marine Lepan (ph).

But in fact, the far right is the only party in France that's really willing to criticize the design and overall ambitions of the Eurozone. And it's the Eurozone whose designs and ambitions have plunged the continent into economic chaos which is making the problem of economic assimilation -- is making economic problems worse for everyone. But for reasons of exclusion, Muslims in France are bearing the bankrupt of the burden.

So there's this terrible irony here where the most anti-immigrant party is also the only party that is willing to criticize the economic model that is hurting immigrants most of all.

HARLOW: That's a very important point. Thank you both, gentlemen. I appreciate it.

DOUTHAT: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: All right. Of course, you want to watch the rest of Fareed Zakaria's interview with Leon Panetta. It is fascinating. It is on "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" tomorrow morning 10:00 a.m. eastern, right here on CNN.

Coming up next on this program, the terror investigation as we've been talking about has led straight to the heart of Yemen. Is that nation a sanctuary for terrorists? What makes it different from Afghanistan when it comes to radicalization? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Right now fear is gripping much of Europe after a week of deadly anti-terror raids. Troops are being deployed to vulnerable sites. We are talking about thousands of troops on the streets in France. But the trial of evidence from -- the trail, rather, of evidence from the deadly terrorist attacks in Paris goes a lot further leading to one country specifically that have been a haven for terrorists, Yemen. And we now know that two Frenchmen were arrested there a few months ago, both with suspected links of Al-Qaeda, the (INAUDIBLE) operating in the Arabian Peninsula, also known as AQAP claiming responsibility for the slaughter at the offices of "Charlie Hebdo."

One or perhaps even both of the gunmen that attacked France's "Charlie Hebdo" magazine are thought to have traveled to Yemen.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is in Yemen chasing down that lead.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yemen's so key to the investigation into what Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula are based in this failing state behind me. It's economy on the edge of collapse. It's institutions always really struggling to hold on amid the conflict whirling around them. Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula based here are calling that of violence in Paris and their (INAUDIBLE) the blessed battle of Paris.

The question is, though, we know from one interior official that Said Kouachi first came here according to their databases in August 2009. He made a number of trips in and out until potentially 2011, even 2012, suggests this official. The question is, did his brother also come here, perhaps using his older brother's passport. That would have been Cherif traveling under the assumed identity of his brother. And most importantly, Al-Qaeda here claimed that Anwar al-Awlaki, an American citizen killed in 2011 by U.S. drone strike was the organizer behind the attacks.

Did the relationship between those two Kouachi brothers and Al-Qaeda here in Yemen end in 2011? Did they have a target and resources to make those attacks against you "Charlie Hebdo" then or was there a continuing network of communications and resources, logistics that continued up until the start of those attacks in Paris just over a week ago now.

Vital things investigators need to establish because if there is a continual relationship, they will want to try and circumvent that and stop it as quickly as possible. But what is happening day by day in Yemen, according to one western diplomat I spoke to, is facilitating Al-Qaeda's life there. There's been a civil conflict raging for years, but it's sort of changed somewhat in the last few months, gathering a more sectarian nature. There's a key tribe here which pretty much Shia in orientation. The Houthis (ph), they wish to be swept into the capitol center behind me taking over the street, putting up checkpoints, confronting across the country Al-Qaeda and those Sunni tribes, allies to Al-Qaeda, turning what's happening in Yemen slowly into a sectarian war. Mirroring the conflicts we're seeing in Iraq and Syria, to Sunni versus Shia.

That is important, said one western diplomat to me, because it means that frightened Sunnis here worrying about the advance of the Shia Houthis (ph) tribe here in the capital are, in fact, putting their guns to help Al-Qaeda and other Sunni tribes. And that means in the local battlefield, Al-Qaeda is better resourced and, says this diplomat, therefore, has more resources and breathing space to, quote, "to think about external operations." And by that they mean attacks against the west. That's the fear that they have great secret recipes of this diplomat

for trying to make nonmetallic bombs that can be used in places like Paris or elsewhere across Europe. The question is, how can that be stopped?

Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula somewhat out of the spotlight given the recent rise of ISIS. The question is do they still have active networks inside Europe? That's what investigators are racing to find out now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Nick Paton Walsh reporting for us from Yemen, CNN, the only major news network there inside Yemen.

Let me go straight to our intelligence and security analyst Bob Baer.

Bob, I want to ask you about this. The president, President Obama, back in September laid out his strategy for the U.S. taking on ISIS and named Yemen along with Somalia, as successful example of how the U.S. plans to pursue and kill terrorists.

Given what we know about the Kouachi brothers, believed to have been trained in Yemen, what we've seen come out of Yemen, what is your take on that? Has the U.S. been successful there?

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Absolutely not. I think what we have to face the fact, Poppy, is that Yemen has been a failed state for as long as I can remember. I dealt with the Yemeni army in the '80s and they would point at large parts of the map saying they couldn't enter those areas. It's gotten a lot worse since. There is no government in Sana'a. The national security adviser I believed was kidnapped yesterday.

HARLOW: Right. And number two.

BAER: Large parts -- number two. And it's a perfect place for Al- Qaeda to set up at mountains. The army can't go up there. The intelligence is awful. We've had a failed SEAL raid there. And we can't get up in those areas.

Drones are helpful to disrupt the leadership but we don't really, in fact, know who is in charge of Al-Qaeda in Yemen. It's still a secretive organization who hey, she is the phenomenal chief of it. But he is called him the general manager which is a bizarre word in Arabic. And then, you know, that's what they call him.

And you know, if you're going to go up there and train on airplane bomb or launch attack on -- attacks on Europe, it's the place to do it. It's much safer than, for instance, Pakistan which now the Pakistani army is going into the tribal areas, is starting to crack down. It has an efficient intelligent service. So a lot of these operations have moved to Yemen.

Additionally, let's not forget that bin Laden was a Yemeni, as is the chief there. And so, you know, it does none of these surprises me. HARLOW: Bob, let me ask you this. Up until a few weeks ago we were

talking a lot about the fact that it really seemed like Al-Qaeda and ISIS were battling one another, trying to one up one another. Now there are more and more indications that they're working together, that those -- especially young people radicalized, don't particularly care whether they're being directed by Al-Qaeda or ISIS, for example. Do you agree that we're seeing more of a collaboration from these terror organizations?

BAER: I think on the ground level we are. You know, the head of Al- Qaeda probably doesn't like the, you know, doesn't like the Islamic state, (INAUDIBLE). There is an arguments over Islamic credentials and they're fighting over general strategy. But on the ground, these small groups, they don't really care. They get their doctrine off the Internet and there are a couple senior sheikhs in Qatar and some in jail the Jordan who really give orders to launch violence against the west. And that's all they care about.

The Kouachi brothers, Coulibaly, they were not sophisticated. You just look into their backgrounds and they don't really care about Islam. They just care that there's a war. And they believe they are foot soldiers. They only go a list of slaughter as many people as they can.

HARLOW: Bob Baer, thank you for that. We appreciate it, your expertise on this. It's a scary reality.

And you know, as Bob just said, they get their doctrine off the Internet. We are going to talk about that because does this mean ISIS has been relentless on the battlefield and on You Tube as well. On the internet, using propaganda highly produced videos to recruit new fighters. So how is our military, how is the west fighting back in terms of its message? Is it doing enough to win the war on the web? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: ISIS has had success recruiting western fighters with very slickly highly produced videos, putting them online, putting these images out, like the one you're looking at, showing their fighters in action on the battlefield. In fact, we usually see almost always ISIS victories.

But where are the videos of ISIS defeats? In a war of images are western nations losing the battle with is at least online?

Let's talk about it with Martha Pease. She is CEO of demandwerks.com and brwonbounce.com (ph), also Bob Baer, former CIA operative joins us again. He is also a CNN intelligence and security analyst.

So Martha, I mean, your expertise is branding and sending a message. Usually when it has to do with corporations, but when it comes to the videos we've seen are just extraordinary from ISIS. Highly produced, they even sometimes put their captives out as reporters on the street. You have a sense that the U.S. should be putting more out there visually. MARTHA PEASE, CEO, DEMANDWERKS.COM: Well, I think ISIS has created a

successful brand. And a brand is an emotional connection with people. And when you make a connection you can scale that connection. And ISIS has been really effective at using propaganda to move their brand along and to continue expand their footprint.

In the face of a successful brand where people are looking at ISIS as a winner, I mean, there really needs to be an alternative narrative put out there. Where are the images of ISIS losing? Where are the images of setbacks actually being placed in their path as they move forward? I think there's a real void in the narrative out there, the public perception.

HARLOW: But do you think that when it comes to most people, right, those not attracted to what ISIS does, which is the majority of people, when they put videos out of these horrific beheadings, for example, aren't they in a sense only digging their own grave? Aren't they in a sense only turning us away -- we have such an aversion to seeing that.

PEASE: Right. I think you're absolutely right. For the majority of the people in the world, it's an awful image and it's an awful brand. But that's not who they're talking to.

HARLOW: Right.

PEASE: They're targeting the mostly young men. I mean, if you think in France, 40 percent of Muslim men in France are unemployed. That's a perfect target audience for --

HARLOW: They may feel disenfranchised.

PEASE: Disenfranchised. They see winning, they see domination, they see success. And, you know, that's a logical magnet for some of those people to turn to. And from a marketing and branding perspective, what can start to put some boundaries on that is an alternative set of images and an alternative to that brand story.

HARLOW: So, it's an interesting point.

Bob, when it comes to a national security perspective, right, so much of what is done in the CIA, you're a former CIA, we never know about. So does it bring up the issue of major national security question, our tactic, et cetera, if the U.S. starts putting out images of how -- I mean, they put out some satellite images but really more graphic images of defeats of ISIS?

BAER: Well, Poppy, you know, I agree, but you know, we seeded that field of battle in a long time ago, trying to change public opinion in the Middle East. The CIA should be in charge of that, placing articles, placing videos, getting inside the Arab, Persian press. It failed at that, frankly, and is no better today. No journalist in the Middle East wants to deal with the CIA. It was different in the '70s and before. So we failed there.

We also as an open society provide most of the propaganda for the Islamic state. You look at the images from Abu Ghraib (ph). You know, even the Wikileaks, when they're firing rockets, targets in Iraq. And those are replayed and replayed and replayed. And for an uneducated group of people like the -- that live in the slums around Paris, all they can do is identify with Islam and that we are oppressing Muslims. And that's the message that the Islamic state is riding on. And I agree. They are winning.

HARLOW: So to Bob's point, Martha, what should be put out?

PEASE: Yes, Bob makes a very good point.

Well, I think some of the issue is what's in the public domain in terms of what the press reports as a story and images that are just generally disseminated through social media as well. And again, I mean, there are places where ISIS has been pushed back. There are incidents and examples and there are plenty of images of ISIS being challenged.

I think just beginning to form a dialogue that creates a narrative around that is important. I would agree that it's probably not going to be the most effective tool coming from the U.S. government, to try to propaganda this in the interest of the western perspective on this. I think that's not going to be effective.

But I do really question from a brand building perspective whether or not there's something that can be done effectively to at least turn -- broaden the attitude toward the position of ISIS.

HARLOW: And it's such an important point, given how many people now are radicalized and even trained online through these videos. They don't need to travel to Yemen.

PEASE: Yes.

HARLOW: To get this training and to carry out these horrific attacks.

Martha, thank you. Appreciate it. Bob Baer, thank you as well.

In the war against ISIS, rebels in Syria could be an essential ally, training these moderate rebels. You have heard a lot about it. But what do we know exactly about who we will be training? Is this a very dangerous strategy driving us further into the chaotic civil war there? We will discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: As we consider and discuss this fight against this really new brand of terror seen in Syria, Yemen, now even playing out in Paris, there's a question that is drawing a lot of debate. What is the best method for fighting and defeating terrorism like this?

Let's bring back in CNN national security analyst and former CIA operative Bob Baer.

And, Bob, we know you lived in Syria. You have a lot of perspective on this. There's been debate on whether troops on the ground, air strike, drones, are the best method of attack. Before we discuss that I want to watch this report on exactly that from our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the fight against ISIS in Syria and Iraq, air strikes by drones or fighter jets can only do so much to suppress the threat of terrorism.

GE, MARK WELSH, AIR FORCE CHIEF OF STAFF: The DOD approach is not to defeat ISIS from the air. The intent is to inhibit ISIS, to astride ISIS, to slow ISIS down, to give a ground force time to be trained because a ground force will be required.

STARR: In Syria where ISIS still controls vast swaths of territory it could take years to get Syrian opposition forces on the ground fully trained and committed to the fight. But the Obama administration has said any ground forces won't come from the U.S. So the answer for now is air strikes that punish the enemy but fail to land a knockout punch.

WELSH: You can't control territory. You can't influence people. You can't maintain lines of control after you've established -- that will take a ground force.

STARR: Even before Al-Qaeda in Yemen claimed responsibility for the Paris attacks, the Pentagon was quietly trying to figure out new ways to thwart Al-Qaeda's most dangerous affiliate. But a frustrating answer came back. No new military options are really out there. The major military tool against Al-Qaeda in Yemen remain unchanged. Drone attacks using hell fire missiles.

Drones have killed nearly 1,000 militants in Yemen during the Obama administration according to the New America Foundation. The biggest success, September 2011 when American board cleric Anwar al-Awalaki was killed.

If you look at all these places, there is a common thread and that's governments. If you have good governments, you have a government that can control its territory, then, extremist groups have a difficult time operating. And you can't get with drone strikes. Drone strike is equivalent to mowing the grass. You can kill some extremists that. You can keep a lid on their capabilities but you cannot eliminate the groups.

STARR: There may actually be one bright spot in all of this and that is Iraq. U.S. officials say they believe they are stalling ISIS' progress in Iraq and that is because they are able to work with Iraqi and Peshmerga forces there and gain an advantage from the intelligence that those groups have.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Bob Baer joining me now again to talk about this. Bob, if drones are, as just described in Barbara's piece like mowing

the grass, right, and fighting against ISIS, what other options are there? What are the best options?

BAER: Well, in Iraq right now against the Islamic state we're counting on reforming the Iraqi army. More of a national army that's going to supposedly go back into Anbar province and take it back from the Islamic state.

But the truth is there's nothing we can do about it. The current prime minister (INAUDIBLE) is simply taking Shia militias and integrating them into the army and trying to send them into a Sunni area. It's not working and it won't work.

The air attacks, no doubt about it have blunted the attacks against the Kurds and against Baghdad. The Islamic state is no longer a threat to Baghdad. That's good. That's a victory. But as far as getting the Sunni in Syria and Iraq to come back over, it's not happening. And we can train all the Sunni people we want, we can give them all the weapons we want, they're going to go back to Syria. And I can almost predict with 100 percent certainty those weapons and a lot of those trained people are going to end up with the Salafists, the fundamentalists whether it's the Islamic state or Jabhat al-Nusra. It just can't work. It's a band-aid on a gaping wound.

HARLOW: But then what do you do, Bob?

BAER: I think, you know, right now, my personal bias is to let the Middle East divide up and give the Sunnis a stake. You simply cannot have a Shia government in Baghdad going into the Sunni areas and trying. They are secular leaders. They are pro Shia. I don't think we should support these (INAUDIBLE) of borders. They were written in secret in 1916 by the Europeans.

They don't exist anymore. We certainly can't send enough troops into the Middle East to hold them together. We, the Americans, don't have the patience. We don't want to go there. We couldn't do it. It would take 100 years. Truly be a 100-years war. I think we need to make some fundamental political changes in the Middle East. They need very unattractive, but I don't see any choice.

HARLOW: We've seen how difficult those are to come by and accomplish. So Bob Baer, thank you for joining me. Appreciate it.

And we are going to talk about this next theories, grouping Europe's Jewish community following the horrific attack in Paris.

Also, new potential terror threats. Next French Jews speck out about the attacks and their unimaginable loss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: One week ago, the "Charlie Hebdo" attacks took another deadly turn with the hostage taking and killing at a Jewish kosher grocery store in Paris. This week in Paris, they mourn those that they lost. Sarah, who is a French Jew, about the fears that her community is

going through right now and her personal struggle to cope with this loss.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARAH, FRENCH JEW: My name is Sarah. I am 30 years old. I'm a teacher in the Jewish school in Paris.

Very difficult. Because first, as a Jewish community, is afraid in Paris because of this terrible attacks.

It's very important for the community to be solid, to be just in one unity.

When I watch TV on Friday, and I saw the place here, and I read on the TV that terrorists went into the supermarket, who is (INAUDIBLE), I knew that he came not to do shopping. So I knew that he will kill people.