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Greece Investigating Ties to Belgian Terror Plot; Soaring Demand for Charlie Hebdo Magazine; Human Rights in Saudi Arabia; European Counterterror Officials Try to Determine Extent of Sleeper Cell Threat; Is Key to Stopping Terror Plots in Europe to Bring Muslims into Mainstream Society; Duke University Says Threats Forced Reverse on Call to Prayer Decision; Mitt Romney Considers Presidential Run in 2016; Obama's SOTU on Tuesday; Was Movie "Selma" Snubbed?
Aired January 17, 2015 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining me here in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. In Europe right now, troops are again being mobilized to guard potentially vulnerable locations the meanwhile, the terror investigation has now extended as far as Greece.
Let's go straight to Pamela Brown, she joins us now live in Paris. Pamela, when you were with us last hour I asked you about the situation there in Paris. I want to know what you're hearing from your sources about what is going on in Greece tied to this string of terror that we've seen.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is still a developing situation, Poppy. And we're hoping to learn more. But at this point, Greek authorities are saying that they have launched an investigation in connection with the Belgium terrorists. So, I can tell you what we know. Sources tell us that other people that were a part of that cell were on the loose and that the ring leader, someone who is a Belgian ISIS operative, was believed to be in Greece.
But at this point authorities are not confirming whether the people that they may have arrested in Greece are those people who we have been reporting on who have been on the run including the ring leader. We are still trying to nail that down. But we know that authorities have been working around the clock since this ring, this cell, was busted in Belgium trying to find those other people on the run. And we know that authorities in Belgium had enlisted the help of Americans, the CIA as well, to try to track down these suspects. So it has been a top priority. Ad of course we'll let you know as soon as we learn more on that front.
HARLOW: I know, Pamela, I mean, French counterterrorism intelligence is broadly seen as very very strong. We know they work very closely with the U.S. also. In terms of those 12 people who remain in custody in Paris after this sweep of potential terror suspects, do we know if they are saying anything to the authorities, if the authorities have brought formal charges against them? What's the latest on that? BROWN: Well, at last check with U.S. authorities, the French had not
handed over information that these were in fact suspects taken at another level here in France you can take people in for questioning. You have a 96-hour window. But normally the French authorities aren't going to share information with their law enforcement counterparts in the U.S. Unless they find probable cause and elevate those people to suspect status. At last check with sources they had not been. So they're still trying to question these people to see if in fact they were complicit in the plot here in Paris. Of course that is the big concern that there were others beyond the Coulibaly and the Kouachi brothers who helped them execute their attack.
HARLOW: Right. Pamela Brown joining us live from Paris. Thank you for your excellent reporting throughout.
I want to discuss this more now with CNN analyst Dr. Qanta Ahmed, she's a leading voice in the fight against Islamic extremism. Also author of the book "In The Land of Invisible Women: A Female Doctor's Journey in Saudi Arabia." I called you. I've been watching you all week here on CNN with your excellent commentary on this. So, thank you for being with me.
DR. QANTA AHMED, AUTHOR, "IN THE LAND OF INVISIBLE WOMEN": Thank you, Poppy.
HARLOW: You just wrote this article today "Islamism Choking Freedom Everywhere." And I want to read part of it. You said, we need a modern comprehensive understanding of the religion of Islam rather than relying on a discourse that has not changed for 800 years. To get to the root of this what needs to be done?
AHMED: So, those words you quoted aren't mine. Those are the words of Egyptian President Al Sisi.
HARLOW: Right. You bring him up as a key example.
AHMED: Yes. And I think what he's pointing to is the fact that not so much the 800 years that I focused on but in recent ages within the last 30 years being able to have this dialogue is becoming increasingly contracted even in our free world where we exchange information and we think about things and we debate things. That's come from a very explicitly Islamist ideology. What we're seeing in Paris now is an expression of violent Islamist ideology. Jihadism evolved as terrorism is an Islamist value. But equally there's a nonviolent ideology, which means shielding an idea, my faith, Islam, and privileging it above the rights of an individual, for instance a Muslim.
That pseudo protection of a belief system which we don't need particularly in the United States where I as an individual am protected is what's stifling this discussion. And this stifling of discussion prevents us from exposing Islamism for what it is. Islamism is a political totalitarian ideology. It is not a religion. But in the United States currently we privilege discussion about it rather like it was a religion. A great example is in 2008, the Homeland Security -- the Department of Homeland Security here in the United States eliminated certain words from its professional discourse.
HARLOW: Right.
AHMED: Caliphate, Salafism, Islamist, jihadist. These words that we're using. Nearby in the United Nations for over 12 years, each year resolutions were passed, pushed by the O.I.C., to criminalize what was perceived as criticism of Islam. And that has been so broadly adopted not to be stopped until two Pakistani politicians lost their lives to saying that the blasphemy laws are inhumane and un- Islamic.
HARLOW: Well, it's interesting. You do point out in this article, as you quote him the Egyptian President Al Sisi calling a spade a spade and saying that we need to do that more. I'd also like your perspective on what Zainab Salbi, the founder of Women for Women International who joined us earlier on the program had to say earlier. And that is you have to create other opportunities. You have to give especially these young disenfranchised, unemployed young men in particular also women something else to live for, to strive for so that they will not take this route. And she said the opportunities are broader than the limitations are. Do you agree with that?
AHMED: I saw that segment. And I think that's an interesting observation that certainly there needs to be room for alternatives. However, for someone like me, I've never been lacking for alternatives. That may be because of my privileged opportunities in western democracies.
HARLOW: I think that's her point is that when people don't have that background, don't have that privilege.
AHMED: But also there is the seduction of Islamist ideology is based on a fictional narrative to participate in a restoration of what is a fictional Islam. There is not even historic validity to what Islamists are seeking. So partly I agree. Broadening social opportunity and relieving economic distress could alleviate this. But that's not the only reason. Economically privileged and powerful people are also seduced into this narrative.
HARLOW: Right. Sure. But what can be done by western nations? Right. She brought up the fact that so many millions, billions are spent on bombing for example, right, in fighting this war. At the same time her point was that western nations do have the ability to help create more opportunity there. I think a lot of people would say but how? How would you do that for example right now in Syria?
AHMED: Syria is almost insurmountable problem that we are confronting. But perhaps something that I could offer that's more practical is opportunity and engagement, engagement with several Islam, which is for instance so-called progressive Islam conferences are held in Indonesia and Morocco facilitating this where Muslims observing Muslims recognize they can be true Islam and there can be separation of mosque and state. Those kinds of dialogues through academic exchange. I came to the United States on an exchange program to further my career. And one of the first things that happened after September 11th was a curtailment of academic visas to come to the United States. There has to be more engagement of ideas.
HARLOW: Great to have you on the program.
AHMED: Thank you.
HARLOW: Thank you for joining us, Dr. Ahmed. We appreciate it.
We're going to talk about this next. Je suis Charlie, a very powerful statement against the terrorists. It was also an opportunity for some people as we've seen play out to cash in. Ahead we're going to talk about how some are trying to turn tragedy and that slogan into profit.
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HARLOW: You will be hard press to get your hands on a copy of Charlie Hebdo, the latest issue published a week after the brace in terror tacks in that French satirical magazine and the staff. The issues have been flying off the shelves in Europe. Also in smaller numbers here in the United States.
And Brian Stelter takes a look at the extraordinary demand and support for this once little known magazine.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Poppy, yes, there's really been extraordinary public demand for this survivor's issue of Charlie Hebdo. It was produced in the immediate aftermath of the attacks in Paris. Initially the publisher was going to print about one million copies. And then it was up to three million, then five million. And now the new total is seven million copies. They're basically printing as fast as they can. And that's because there have been long lines in newsstand, not just in Paris but all over France. And now in Germany as well.
The magazine came out in Germany today and it sold out very quickly. I asked a spokesman for the distributor how much money has been made over all these copies. He said that it is too early to say. Here in the United States a few copies have reached the states. A few on them were on display at book stores here in New York. And now they're waiting lists for customers who would like want to be able to buy copies of their own.
And the distributors here in the U.S. say, they'll be donating any of the proceeds to the families of the victims. But there has not been universal support for this new issue. As you know, the cover depicts a tearful image of the Prophet Muhammad with a sign that reads "I am Charlie" and it has caused protests in a number of Middle Eastern and African countries. At a protest in Karachi, Pakistan yesterday, a photographer was actually wounded by gunfire. An investigation into what happened there is ongoing. And in the African country of Niger there have been several churches burned and several people killed according to local report. The French embassy is actually warning French citizens in that country to stay indoors and to stay vigilant. Poppy, back to you.
HARLOW: Brian Stelter, thank you for that reporting. We appreciate it. And it is one thing for "Charlie Hebdo" to profit from its own magazine. It is quite another for merchants and marketing firms to try to cash in on the tragedies that transpired in Paris. We've seen it before after Eric Garner's chokehold death in New York City. Also, after the 9/11 attacks some people trying to trademark "I can't breathe" and saw a lot of the merchandise after the 9/11 attacks.
Let's bring in Martha Pease, she's a p.r. specialist in CEO and DemandWerks.com. Thank you for being here. And Brian just brought us some really interesting reporting. We'll get to those numbers in a moment. What is your reaction though when we see someone trying to trademark Je suis Charlie or someone tried to trademark "I can't breathe" after Eric Garner's death in New York City, where's the line?
MARTHA PEASE, CEO, DEMANDWERKS.COM: Well, it's a great question. There's a natural inclination for a market to move to where there's opportunity. So it's not surprising that there's going to be a move to try to trademark something that everyone can identify with. I mean, there is an emotional need for people to kind of come together around a shorthand handle for how people, how they are feeling and to share that feeling. But I think what's really interesting about this situation that we've seen over and over and over again is that there is a difference between exploitation and elevation.
HARLOW: Yes. I think that's an important point. Because as we got to your segment we pulled up this picture of LeBron James wearing the "I can't breathe" shirt. Right? That's not him selling it. He's not trying to trademark it. That's sending a message that he wants to send. But someone, people did try to trademark "I can't breathe" for profit, for selling. And that's the line you're saying.
PEASE: Right. I'm saying that's the line. And you'll see some exchange of dollars against the merchant part of it. But what you'll see sustaining is how you can elevate this opportunity to take a crisis and turn it into a real positive potential way to create a community discussion. And some of that will be through selling merchandise, some of it will be through allowing, you know, people who can't get their hands on the "Charlie Hebdo" issue, you know, having it sent to them by volunteers in Paris, which is a really extraordinary kind of action. I think, you know, we saw something this summer with the ALS effort.
HARLOW: The ice bucket challenge.
PEASE: The ice bucket challenge. Which could have come off as a very kind of thin and superficial challenge. It raised $60 million.
HARLOW: It was incredible.
PEASE: It was awesome.
HARLOW: It was incredible. You know, some of these numbers that our Brian Stelter has just gone for example the graphic designer of "Charlie Hebdo," right? Saying that there have been 120 attempts to trademark this slogan for things like hats and t-shirts, even guns. And of course, saying, you know, the graphic designer, it is horrible. It's a slogan of free speech. It has nothing to do with a brand. At the same time, if people get a legal trademark people get a legal trademark.
PEASE: They get a legal trademark. And they can pursue it and they can do with it what they want. But, you know, if you look at it from a consumer perspective, you have to believe and history would prove that sustaining a real interest in purchasing merchandise, you know, just because you have a trademark for it is going to wane over time, and what will stay with people is the meaning of the event and how they can continue to come together around it.
HARLOW: Yes.
PEASE: I mean, you saw it with 9/11. We've seen it over and over and over again.
HARLOW: Yes. That's a very good point. Someone who did make some of those t-shirts Je suis Charlie telling us here at CNN, you know, they did not mean to profit off it and therefore donating all of the money to a cause which is also something you can do. Thank you, Martha.
PEASE: Pleasure.
HARLOW: Good to have you on the program.
PEASE: Thank you. Welcome.
HARLOW: A quick break and we appreciate it as always.
Coming up next, we're going to talk about Saudi Arabia. One of America's closest allies in the Middle East. But many people appalled by seeing things happen in the kingdom like an outspoken blogger sentenced to punishment with lashes. Our odd relationship and whether it should change. That's coming up.
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HARLOW: As you know, America depend on Saudi Arabia as a very close ally in the Middle East. And as our Miguel Marquez reports, the U.S. often gives a pass to the Saudis on policies and in tolerance especially towards free speech and women issues.
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MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The man in the white shirt, Raif Badawi, a Saudi Arabian citizen sentenced to ten years in prison and a thousand lashes with a cane. His crime, starting this blog called "Free Saudi liberals."
ENSAF HAIDAR, WIFE OF RAIF BADAWI (through a translator): Every lash killed me.
MARQUEZ: His wife and three kids fearing for their own safety have now fled to Canada.
HAIDAR: Raif did not do anything. Raif did not carry a weapon. Raif's only weapon was his pen. MARQUEZ: Convicted of insulting Islam, this his fate every Friday.
Handcuffed, put on public display, and hit 50 times with a cane. His first round last Friday, 19 Fridays to go, 950 lashes ahead.
The shock here, the lashes carried out the same week the Saudi ambassador to France marched along with millions of others in the name of free speech. Saudi Arabia home to Islam's holiest site, Mecca in Medina says in its system of Sharia law the punishment fits the crime.
MOHAMMED AL-MUADI, SAUDI HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION (through a translator): The kingdom will not back down on the issue of justice.
MARQUEZ: Badawi's case sharply criticized by human rights groups, the U.N. and governments worldwide.
JEN PSAKI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESWOMAN: The United States government calls on Saudi authorities to cancel this brutal punishment.
MARQUEZ: But we've been here before. Saudi Arabia long criticized for its dismal record on free speech, women's issues, death penalty by beheading and cutting off of body parts for crimes such as theft.
ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: The Saudis, you know, they play to their own tune. They don't care.
MARQUEZ: Former CIA operative Robert Baer has written extensively about Saudi Arabia. He says the country in large part gets a pass not only because it alone can control the price of oil but it is America's best friend in a tough neighborhood.
BAER: I think the way we look at it is the Saudi royal family keeps a lid on a country that could come apart if it weren't for them. And it could be something much worse.
MARQUEZ: American presidents, whether Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr. or Obama, have forged close relations with the Saudis. That relationship tested like never before after the September 11th, 2001 terror attack. Fifteen of the 9/11 terrorists from Saudi Arabia.
BAER: We still haven't seen the 9/11 report related to Saudi Arabia and the financing.
MARQUEZ: The kingdom has made reforms aimed at curbing terror financing. But classification of 28 of the 9/11 reports pages still hotly debated. It was highlighted in the 2004 Michael Moore film "Fahrenheit 911".
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: When Congress did complete its own investigation, the Bush White House censored 28 pages of the report.
MARQUEZ: A sharp reminder of the dual nature of the U.S.-Saudi relationship. A relationship being questioned again because of this man, Raif Badawi and his 1,000 lashes. Miguel Marquez, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE) HARLOW: Well, Miguel, thank you for that report. Let's talk about this complex relationship between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia. Dr. Qanta Ahmed joins me again, also the author of the book, "In The Land of Invisible Women: A Female Doctor's Journey in Saudi Arabia." Perfect person to talk to us about this. Let's take the case of the blogger that Miguel just reported. Should the United States have come out more strongly condemning this?
AHMED: Absolutely. And there's still opportunity for our leaderships in every sector to seek the release and I would say protection into the United States just as his wife has been protected in Canada to retrieve him. Because fundamental to Islamic belief, first thing it's the words of the Koran. Let there be no compulsion in belief. In Saudi Arabia under their legislation, they deny the right to freedom of thought. Because they say if you're free to think you could be free to question Islam or leave Islam.
God gives us the right to do that, but the human leadership of Saudi Arabia denies the right. And it also shows you, his wife said he doesn't carry any weapon. All he did was wield a pen. So this gives us exactly the battle that is going on, the war within Islam, which is on the one hand we have the Jihad of the sword, so to speak, which is what ISIS would like to portray, what's happening in Paris.
HARLOW: Right.
AHMED: And on the other hand, Muslims like me, anti-Islamist Muslims, Muslims who believe in Islam, recognize its values but are absolutely opposed to Islamism can use our pen. The reason this person is being punished so severely and so definitively is because writing and thinking and exposing these ideas is a dire threat. The United States would fail its founding fathers -- its founding fathers, the third president of the United States, President Jefferson, enshrined human rights for all of us to have religious identity based on the theoretical Muslims who might live here.
HARLOW: Right. And look at the fight that has been going on. That march, that unity march that we saw in Paris, all for freedom. Freedom of speech with leaders from around the world joining together. You lived in Saudi Arabia as a female. And I just wonder your perspective on that.
AHMED: So it's important to say that Saudi Arabia provided me a living, a wonderful career, and I had magnificent friends who were Saudi Muslims, who were also opposed to these practices. And so we must be careful not to vilify an entire nation. But the conditions under which they live and the way they interpret what they say is sharia is fundamentally un-Islamic. Number one, the denial of an expression of an alternative religious identity. The Koran teaches us to recognize Christians, Jews, even other believers that we might not know what their beliefs are. But in Saudi Arabia, the right to even demonstrate a Christian symbol, a bible or a crucifix, let alone a place of worship, is banned.
HARLOW: So, some have been saying, look, if you look at Saudi Arabia ruled by Sharia law, this is also the same philosophy that ISIS and al Qaeda say they are guided by. Do you see a difference there, though?
AHMED: There is a difference. I understand that simplification. But again we are in times which require great nuance.
HARLOW: Sure.
AHMED: Saudi Arabia is a theocracy. It is a religious theocracy in partnership with the monarchy and the Wahabi clerics that help shore up its power. ISIS is seeking the downfall of secular democracy as one of its goals.
HARLOW: Right. They have their own caliphate, their entire Islamic State.
AHMED: Yes. They're not the same but Saudi Arabia could be fairly described as subscribing to Islamist ideologies in some respects.
HARLOW: Thank you for the perspective. It's wonderful to have you on the program. Fascinating reports as well. Thank you.
All right. We have heard a lot this week about threats from sleeper cells, especially those emerging across Europe, terrorists waiting to lash out when we least expect it. Let's talk more next about those cells, how do they work, how are they begun, next.
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HARLOW: I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. This hour's top story, Europe's terror investigation. It is now extended as far south as Greece. Police officials there say they are in the midst of an investigation. They are not saying how much or if they have taken anyone into custody, but they are confirming they are working leads connected to the sweep of terror suspects in Belgium two days ago. Already security officials are checking reports of so-called sleeper cells that may be poised to strike at anytime, anywhere, across Europe, specifically France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands.
As for the attack that triggered the growing terror alert, one of the brothers who shot up and murdered people at the offices of the magazine "Charlie Hebdo" was buried overnight. Said Kouachi is now in an unmarked grave in his hometown of rural France. The town said they had no choice. They were required by law to bury him there since he was indeed a resident.
Also security officials all over Europe are still trying to get a handle on how many extremists may be preparing violent attacks. Intelligence sources tell CNN that terrorist sleeper cells may now be activated in Belgium and in Holland.
Right now, counterterrorism officials are scrambling to determine the extent of the sleeper cell threat, but how exactly does a sleeper cell work?
Our Brian Todd has more on that.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A Western official with knowledge of the Paris investigation tells CNN there is huge concern over the danger from sleeper cells in Europe and elsewhere. The worry is over the unknown -- when, where and how they'll strike.
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TODD (voice-over): A terror cell disrupted, but Europe is still bracing for more attacks. A Western intelligence source tells CNN there could be several sleeper cells ready to strike in France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands. Now, new concerns about their planning and timing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The worry is how and when will they be activated.
TODD: Former jihadist and intelligence officers tell CNN a sleeper cell is usually made up of a few operatives, either acting on behalf of a foreign country or a terror group, taking instructions from it, or are simply inspired by a group and acting on their own, as Paris gunman, Amedy Coulibaly, appeared to do. They're living in the city where they want to strike, selecting targets.
MIKE BAKER, FORMER CIA COVERT OPERATIONS OFFICER: They are there and they have that ability to cross borders, to live without being on the radar screen.
TODD: They're highly skilled at blending in, appearing like the guy next door.
MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER JIHADIST & FORMER INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: They'll have regular jobs. You might see them at the strip joint, drinking alcohol. Anything to take off the claim or suspicion that they might be extremist Muslim terrorists.
TODD: The 9/11 hijackers did that, reportedly drinking heavily in bars, some even going to strip clubs.
Mobim Shaikh is a former jihadist who almost went to Iraq to fight. He went undercover for Canadian intelligence and helped bust a terror cell in Toronto. He says many sleeper operatives don't communicate with their handlers by phone or over the Internet. Some are told, don't go to mosques, don't give a hint of your religion.
SHAIKH: Could be shave your beard, remove your religious garb, anything to blend in. That will be determined by the handler or sometimes even the operatives in the cell itself.
TODD: Sleeper operatives stay isolated, experts say, sometimes lie dormant for years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They wait for an opportune moment, when the world attention is turned away, when their planning phase is over, to strike.
TODD (on camera): And the sleeper cell dynamic is always changing. A U.S. counterterrorism official told me, these days, terror cells do a lot less sleeping. They actively plot, hope to avoid suspicion, and they very often direct the terror strike themselves rather than wait for a signal.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: Brian Todd, thank you for that.
Coming up, we're going to talk about this. Is the key to stopping terror plots across Europe dependent on bringing Muslims into mainstream society? Also, has America done a better job or do we share Europe's problems? We'll talk about that next.
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HARLOW: The Paris attacks and alerts across Europe were among the topics President Obama discussed on Friday with Prime Minister David Cameron.
Let's talk about Europe's response to its growing immigrant population with CNN political commentators, Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson.
Thank you, guys, for being here. Appreciate it.
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good to be here.
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Pleasure.
HARLOW: Marc, let me start with you.
The president and also Prime Minister Cameron talked about the need to better assimilate the immigrant population, Muslims, into European society. And it is key. We've been talking about it throughout the program that when you have these young, unemployed, disenfranchised people, they are more likely to turn towards radicalization. Obviously, not in the majority of cases. But do you think we will see progress on this front in Europe?
LAMONT HILL: I hope that we see progress on this front. If you look at Tunisians in France, for example, they never fully integrated into society. Most people who are considered ethnic minorities and religious minorities in Europe don't become radicalized or terrorists at least. But we do know the recipe for making terrorists is to marginalize people, to engage in acts of state violence, to deprive people of jobs. It is to really fail to have a multicultural view of society. So, yes, we need to do that in Europe to help prevent terrorism but there are a lot of other things we can do as well.
HARLOW: Marc, thank you for that.
Ben, I want your response to that. President Obama has said that the U.S. has an advantage over Europe and that Muslims here feel like Americans. Liston this and then I want your response on the other side.
FERGUSON: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our Muslim populations, they feel themselves to be Americans. And there is this incredible process of immigration and assimilation that is part of our tradition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: I think, Ben, it's one thing to be an American, right, to be a citizen, to be a green card holder, et cetera. It's another to really feel like it, to feel like this is your country and you are welcome.
FERGUSON: Well, I think certainly America is an incredible melting pot of ideas and freedom of speech and religion and so many other things that many parts of the world do not have. And so it's easy to feel proud of this country, I think, very quickly, whether you were born here or you assimilate here, you come here through student visa then become an American citizen or even if you live here and you're not an American citizen.
But I also think we have to be not so naive to think the reason why we don't have as much terrorism here compared to these other countries is because people feel more connected with this nation. The reality is, geographically, there are some issues in Europe. It's a lot closer to these terrorists. Terrorists have become much more active in Europe to recruit people in Europe or even to transplant terrorists to Europe. So I think part of our biggest perk is really it's a lot harder to get in and out of America. We've done an incredible job since 9/11 of keeping us safe and keeping a lot of radicals out.
And unfortunately for -- look at how many countries we're talking about in the last 24 hours that have been going after these terrorist cells. I mean, it just shows you how much easier it is to get in and out of countries. Even this one woman they're looking for in the Paris attack, she was able to get out of that country and move around very quickly.
HARLOW: Yeah, yeah.
FERGUSON: A lot of it, I think, is an issue of demographics. I'm not near as hard on the U.K. as even it seemed like President Obama was kind of saying, hey, you guys need to kind of do a better job of assimilating. Europe is a pretty cool place and there's a lot of people that love it. I think it's just demographics.
HARLOW: I do want to get your take if I can, Marc, on this other story, before we get to a break, that is fascinating what we've seen play out at Duke University.
LAMONT HILL: Yeah.
HARLOW: So this week the school cited security threats, a number of threats, they said, unspecified threat, and concerns as part of the reason for reversing their decision to allow a Muslim Call to Prayer on campus, right, from the chapel bell tower.
Marc, first what is your take on that? LAMONT HILL: Duke University -- which I love. I'm a huge Duke fan.
Duke should be ashamed of itself right now. To not allow the event to be called is extremely disappointing. It gives into the very thing we're supposed to be standing up to. It's amazing. When people want to -- when terrorists get outraged about a movie, where they're going to allegedly kill Kim Jong-Un, they say we have to stand up for terrorism. Free speech must prevail. When it comes to defending Islam and not making a movie about killing another standing leader, suddenly, we back down and say we can't do it because of potential terrorists.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: Islam is a religious -- go ahead.
HARLOW: I just want to clarify here a reporting on this, the university, although they haven't specified the threats -- and, Ben, you can weigh in on this as well -- they said the number and tone of the calls were pretty loud and nasty. So don't you have to weigh any potential danger here?
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: No. I think that's the easy thing to say from Duke University to say, oh, well, these phone calls were nasty and ugly. You're always going to get phone calls when you have any sort of major issue in society that people don't always all agree on.
I think, though, what this really boils down to is that you had a lot of people that donated a lot of money at Duke that said, we don't want this to happen in our chapel. And we don't think that this is appropriate. We think this is political correctness maybe going too far. And I think, more than likely, what you really had was you had the president of that university taking a lot of heat from their alumni that said this is a bad move and we want you to reverse it. So if you reverse that decision under the name of security, you don't take near as much heat than if you do it because you said a bunch of alumni said they didn't like this.
HARLOW: I wish we had much more time to discuss this. It's fascinating. We have to take a break.
Franklin Graham, son of evangelist, Billy Graham, calling for that not to be allowed to happen.
We're going to be back on the other side with the two of these fine gentlemen to talk about the race to 2016. He's won twice. Could it be three times? The presidential candidate, Mitt Romney, he's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARLOW: Are you kind of feeling like it's 2012 all over again? At least when it comes to politics? Mitt Romney telling a GOP meeting this week he's thinking hard about another run for president. He tried in 2008. No luck. Got the nomination but lost to President Obama in 2012. Is 2016 his time to shine? Let's bring back in Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.
What do you think, Ben? Third time's the charm?
FERGUSON: I think it's third time a charm. Back in the good old days, only a couple channels covering the debates and we weren't a 24- hour news cycle, there's a guy named Ronald Reagan who was a "third time the charm" guy. I think you get fatigue of voters when you run three times with a 24-hour news cycle with the constant number of debates you have. I think people get just tired of hearing your name. I think, you lost a couple of times, and people say move on.
But there's also the politics of it. And if you're Mitt Romney, this actually may be his best chance. You have a lot of really conservative candidates that are going to be splitting up votes in primaries. He obviously was able to grab a lot of states last time, even when he had a weak start. He's got the money and the financial backing. So for him, he may say, hey, I got more people dividing the pie, I might be able to pull this sucker off and get the nomination yet again.
HARLOW: Marc, what do you think? If he does go for a run, which a lot of indications are pointing that he may very well, do you think he'll get the nomination?
LAMONT HILL: I think he can get the nomination. I agree with Ben that voters get fatigued of hearing the same name over again. But the frontrunner right now aside from Romney is Jeb Bush. The Bush name has been prominent in American politics for the last three decades. If it comes down to another Bush or Romney, people may say another Romney.
If anyone should be doing back flips right now, a certain governor in Wisconsin who is saying, look, if those are my competition, I have a real good shot here.
And I guarantee the Democratic Party is doing somersaults if Romney runs again. They look at Romney as imminently beatable. He's the guy who always sounds good. He's the person you dream of marrying. When you get in the House go on the date, they're like, yeah, it's just not it.
HARLOW: It's interesting, he said a lot of people ask what his wife thinks of it. It's not just one person that runs, it's the entire family. He said she thinks things get better with experience. We'll see.
(LAUGHTER)
Guys, coming up Tuesday night, big night here for the nation, big night on CNN. We'll be covering the Obama State of the Union address.
Let me start with you, Ben, first.
What is the one thing that you would like to hear from the president? FERGUSON: I would love for him to come out and say that we're going
to change the work week in Obama care from 30 hours to 40 hours for full-time employees. Because the idea was one that's been a failure. And it's hurt a lot of hourly workers and low paid workers who need those extra nine hours back. And this was an idea that was passed. It did not work. And to help people that are trying to grab extra nine hours at another job, this would be a great way to help the average American worker. There's a lot of them that want it bad. I hope he does it.
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: Is the idea to say, look, even if you're not a 40-hour employee your employer has to provide health care for you. What you're saying, Ben, a lot of employers arguably cut hours down.
FERGUSON: Yeah, they cut hours. They did.
HARLOW: And people may fall into that.
Marc, to you, what is the one thing you'd like to hear from the president?
LAMONT HILL: I love Ben. Can I just say I love Ben? Because Ben's been deliberately asking for things he knows the president won't say so, afterwards, he'll say, see, he won't say it.
(LAUGHTER)
I'm going to do the opposite. I'm going to ask for something I know the president will talk about, cyber security and the global threat of terror. The president needs to speak to this, he needs to talk about this, particularly after this past week and past weekend, how the United States is going to guard itself against global terror and engage in cyber security that will allay some of the anxiety that's emerged against Hackgate.
FERGUSON: And, Poppy, I hope he walks out and the first thing he says is, hey, Paris, France, my bad, we should have showed up. That would be a good way to start the whole sucker off.
(LAUGHTER)
HARLOW: I don't know if that's going to happen.
LAMONT HILL: Oh, Ben.
HARLOW: We will be watching.
LAMONT HILL: It won't.
(LAUGHTER)
HARLOW: Ben and Marc, thank you very much. Stick with me. You're going to join me after a quick break. Of course, CNN's State of the Union coverage starts Tuesday night, 7:00 p.m. eastern, right here on CNN. Join us for complete coverage of the president's speech to the nation, the Republican response. We will have it coming up.
Next on the program, "Selma" got a nod for best picture at the Academy Award nominations, best song as well, but other than that, it was pretty much snubbed. Is it the movie or is the Academy to blame? That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I got 101.
(SHOUTING)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Unacceptable that they use their power to keep us voiceless.
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Those who have gone before have said no more!
(SHOUTING)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Did you actually say they're going to kill her?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: They're trying to get inside of your head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: "Selma," it's the movie that was supposed to, by many accounts, win all of the awards, and instead, it sparked a debate over diversity in Hollywood. It tells the story of Martin Luther King's leadership and the civil rights movement and was nominated for an Oscar for best picture. But some are saying its stars and its director were snubbed.
Joining me again to talk about this, Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson. They are back.
Ben, what do you make of this? What do you think is going on here in terms of what the critics are saying? Some are saying racism is behind this voting. I'd like your thoughts on that.
FERGUSON: I don't think it's racism. I mean, look at the past nominations recently. You had "The Help," which had an incredible amount of awards, including best supporting actress.
(LAUGHTER)
You have other movies that have a lot of awards, including "Django in Chains," including "12 Years a Slave."
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: To act as if African-American movies are not getting --
LAMONT HILL: I think you're kidding.
FERGUSON: -- what they deserve, look at past nominations. I think biggest thing that hurt this movie was when there was the debate over the historical inaccuracies between Martin Luther King and the president of the United States of America. When people saw there were historical inaccuracies, there was so much debate around it, I think that hurt this movie more than anything else, do you really award it when you didn't have to change that relationship. You could tell the story perfectly historically and it would have been amazing. So why make those changes? There was a lot of criticism for that and it hurt the movie.
HARLOW: Marc?
LAMONT HILL: Ben just -- Ben said that Hollywood is not racist because they rewarded movies where black people played slaves and maids.
(LAUGHTER)
FERGUSON: The stories --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: -- evidence to the contrary.
FERGUSON: No, those are credible stories.
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: Wait. I want Marc to finish.
Ben, you can weigh in next.
LAMONT HILL: I'll let you finish, Ben. Let me finish.
My point is that Hollywood allows for certain types of representations of black people. Black people as maids is not shocking to white people, not shocking to white America, and those types of movies often prevail. Black people are slaves. That's something America is quite familiar with. They allow those movies to do well. Denzel Washington is an extraordinary actor. He played Malcolm X, for god's sake, a masterful performance. He got no award. But when he plays a drug dealer, he gets the award. There are certain representations Hollywood allows for.
As far as the historical representation issue, many historians push back against the argument that LBJ was as connected to King and the Voting Rights Act as his opponents suggest. I'm not a historian of that time period, so I won't debate that issue.
But "The Godfather II" won an award, and some Cuban experts who say what happened when Fradoe (ph) gets lost from Michael during the Cuba Revolution is not exactly what happened according to Bautista and Castro.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Marc, you and I know that this was a movie that was about true genuine history that should be told historically in context, I would say, perfectly. When you're talking about "The Godfather," you're not talking about a historical film about actual events. Let's be honest about that. And here's the other thing. You and I both know --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: Did you see the movie?
FERGUSON: Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: Did you see the movie? Did you see the movie?
FERGUSON: I've seen about 30 minutes of it.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: Then, there you go.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: But my point is this, Marc, and I think you know this -- in 10 years, 20 years, are people going to be running "The Godfather" every holiday season because it's an incredible series or will they be getting "Selma"? Oprah Winfrey is a decent actress.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: She's not incredible. She's a decent actress. Just because you're Oprah doesn't mean you should get nominated.
HARLOW: So, Marc, I want you guys to weigh in on this. An interesting article about this in the "Wall Street Journal" today. It notes the fact that according to a "Los Angeles Times" investigation, 94 percent of the Academy, 6,000-plus voting members were whites as in 2012. After the investigation came out, the academy made an effort to be more diverse in terms of those that vote on the videos. It also notes that an African-American has been president of the academy since 2013.
Marc, to you, are these things that should be considered in the debate?
LAMONT HILL: They should be considered, but again, certain forms of representation don't make the problem resolve. There's a president of the United States, doesn't mean that race isn't still an issue. Hollywood has a diversity problem. Hollywood has a diversity problem at the production level in terms of who gets green lighted for films and who gets remitted on screen. That's something we have to work through. Just because a black person doesn't get an award, doesn't mean Hollywood is racist, but let's be clear, Hollywood is racist.
FERGUSON: Wait, wait. You just contradicted yourself. You're saying unless we give out --
LAMONT HILL: There's no contradiction.
FERGUSON: -- affirmative action types of awards --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- at the Oscars, then automatically Hollywood is racist? Are we going to --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: I said the opposite of that. Ben, you misheard me. Ben --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Here's a black nominee --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: Ben, Ben, Ben.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: No, no, no, hold on. You completely misrepresented what I just said. I said just because a black person does not win an award does not mean Hollywood is racist. I'm not saying white people can win all the awards on year doesn't mean Hollywood is racist. It should be based on the content of the film. I'm saying that point aside, Hollywood, for other reasons, who gets green lit, who has production money, represented on screen, Hollywood is racist, independent of the award issue. The opposite of what you said I said.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: So to be clear on that. Please continue.
FERGUSON: Look at Denzel Washington. Some of the highest paid actors in Hollywood are African-American. Can you really say Hollywood is racist when some of the top paid actors are, in fact, African- American?
HARLOW: Very quickly --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: Oprah is one of the richest people in America. Doesn't mean there isn't racism in the economy on the job.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I'm saying, if Hollywood is genuinely racist, how is it right now that some of the highest paid actors and actresses are, in fact, African-American if they do not like African-Americans?
LAMONT HILL: Let me --
(CROSSTALK)
HARLOW: We have to leave it there.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: Let me answer the question. Because there's like three of them, Ben.
HARLOW: We have to leave it there. I can tell you, for one, I can not wait to see the film "Selma."
Thank you, gentlemen.
I'll be back here at 7:00 eastern with the latest on the terror investigation in Europe.
In the meantime, "Smerconish" begins right now.
