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Terror Threat Remains High in Europe; Expect More Security Measures When You Travel; Senator Mark Kirk on U.S.-Iran Relationships; American Cartoonist in Hiding; Preventing Further Attacks in Europe

Aired January 17, 2015 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow, joining you live from New York.

And it is after midnight in Europe, after another day of rising terror threat, here is the scope of Europe's terrorism investigation as we speak. These are countries that have suspects either in custody or linked to possibly the Paris terrorism or suspected of belonging to Islamic extremist groups.

Security forces in Yemen today they have two men in custody both from France, suspected of helping the al Qaeda affiliates based there. They were reportedly asked before arrested -- arrested before the Paris terror attacks. The decision has not made whether or not to charge those two men yet.

And one of the brother who is shot up the office of the magazine "Charlie Hebdo" was buried overnight. Said Kouachi is now in an unmarked grave in his hometown in rural France. The town's mayor said they had no choice. They're required by law to bury him there since he was a resident.

Across Europe, the terrorist threat is higher than it's been in many years. This is Brussels today, soldiers with weapons patrolling the streets and standing guard at tourists -- at many tourist sites including Jewish centers. Troops are deployed to Antwerp, boosting the police force there by great number in the city's Jewish neighborhoods. Security officials all over Europe are still trying to get a handle on how many extremists may be preparing violent attacks.

Intelligence sources now telling CNN that terrorist sleeper cells may be activated especially in Belgium and Holland. Let me bring in our analyst, Bob Baer, a former CIA operative and retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Mark Hertling. Joining us, a former jihadist and author, Mubin Shaikh.

Thank you all for being here, gentlemen.

Let me begin with you, Bob Baer.

There's a lot to digest when you look at the scope of the growing investigation into all of this. If we look, Bob, at the Paris suspects as a sort of family of three, they are connected to known terrorists like the underwear bomber, also al Qaeda leader who's been dead for a year, Anwar al Awlaki.

When you look at this, do you think the terrorist attackers have been plotting for years akin to a sleeper cell that we're now being warned about?

BOB BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I do, Poppy, and the reason for that is because they went off the air from the time they trained in 2009 --

HARLOW: Right.

BAER: -- and subsequent trips.

They went out of their way not to look like believers or jihadists. It's clear to me at this point they were -- they weren't talking to each other on the phone, they were using wives and girlfriends to talk to each other. There was travel to Spain, Coulibaly and so forth.

The more I see, the more evidence that's made public, the more it looks like this was put in place. I don't think that al-Awlaki sat down and worked out the details. He probably blessed this operation early on and it took them all those years, and what we don't know is who were the masterminds, probably in Yemen.

HARLOW: So, General Hertling, to that point now, you know, U.S. officials telling us here at CNN, there are a number of sleeper cells they believe could be housing up to 180 different people. Given that and given what we saw play out in Paris, how do you attack that?

LT. GENERAL MARK HERTLING (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, you don't attack individual cells, Poppy. You attack the network. And the diagram you showed just a minute ago is what is affectionately known in both the intelligence agency and the military as a link diagram. But it's missing many places.

And there's a lot of holes to be filled in. Who were the financiers? Who were the suppliers? Who were the camo individuals? Who gave the rules when to attack and what to attack?

All of those things are now being pieced together with maybe some of the other raids that have been occurring recently in Belgium. You'll see some new pictures showing up, and there will also be some blank holes with no faces and saying, who is this individual that will allow us to go after the network that will take down more of these cells? Poppy?

HARLOW: I want to get Mubin Shaikh's perspective here, because you have unique perspective, former jihadi reformed, worked with intelligence in Canada to try to help fight this, you've written a book about it. When you talk about Anwar a al Awlaki, an American- born, Muslim scholar and critic who really acted as a spokesperson for AQAP, a lot of people have been focusing on him and saying how effective he's being for his movement from the grave.

Do you believe that he is critical in what we saw play out in Paris and potential future attacks from sleeper cells?

MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATIVE: Well, of course, Anwar al Awlaki has played a role in radicalizing individual, young people who have then ended up joining groups like either al Qaeda or ISIS. And, you know, and I think the main thing is that first of all he's not a scholar. Many Islamic scholars have refuted his ideas. And you know what his PhD is in? Human resource management.

HARLOW: Right, right,

SHAIKH: This is the kind of stuff he's been known to do, bring people in, send them off to trusted others, especially in al Qaeda proper.

HARLOW: But I wonder why you think he has resonated so much even after being killed by a U.S. drone strike. I mean, what does it tell us about possible other sleeper cells, possible other young extremists that could be planning to carry out an attack like the Kouachi brothers?

SHAIKH: Yes, he's just a spiritual -- you know, somebody who inspires, a radicalizer, a charismatic preacher who puts people on the path. I share the views of your other guests, that he's not really an operator, nor does he have any kind of operational standing.

But, I mean, it's ideas that you're dealing with. So, you can kill the person, but if the idea remains so would the threat that's generated from those ideas.

HARLOW: Very good point.

Bob, to you, we talked a lot about -- I mean, for the past months we've been talking act is and al Qaeda trying to one-up one another, and now the conversation has shifted a lot to are the two working more closely together and creating a more dominant force, a more dominant terror group. What is your take on that, Bob?

BAER: Poppy, I think there's -- you know, yes, there are disputes between al Qaeda and the Islamic State and they're important ones and they dispute each other's Islamic credentials, no question about it. But, at the end of the day, the foot soldiers really with whom they want to, who is useful, who will pull the trigger, they go to all sorts of resources so they'll cross those lines.

We saw the same thing with Iranian terrorism in the '80s with Hezbollah, the Palestinians did it and so on. When it comes time to the shooting, they don't really care about, you know, disputes -- ideological disputes.

HARLOW: So, General Hertling, if we go with the assumption, and it is just an assumption at this point, we don't have full intelligence backing saying this, that they're working together, but if we go with that, that these two groups are not as much fighting each other and going to destroy one another, does this change the game for U.S. intelligence and operations in the region?

HERTLING: I think the intelligence elements will continue to go after each separate organization to try and build those linked diagrams like you showed earlier and expand them. How are they connecting? What is going on at the higher level and at the tactical level? What kind of cells are interconnecting through Europe?

What kind of people are talking to each other, some who have talked to Awlaki many years ago, some who are just seeing the Web sites of ISIS now and saying they want to be part of the jihad. How do you make that link hike will we saw in Paris and what kind of difficulties will we have not only in the cells but in the larger strategic network?

HARLOW: We're going to talk a lot more about that throughout the hour. Thank you, Bob Baer, Mubin Shaikh, and General Bob Hertling. We appreciate it.

Coming up, amid the growing threat of terror in Europe, the U.S. taking action, what the government is doing and is it enough? We'll discuss, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: As terrorists reportedly ramp up efforts to strike in several European countries, homeland officials right here in the United States also, of course, beefing up security.

Our Rene Marsh has the latest on that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: The headline from my conversation with Secretary Johnson is another round of ramped-up measures at our nation's airports is on the way. It's unclear if these will be seen or unseen changes but Johnson says it's in response to threat streams they're seeing now.

JEH JOHNSON, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We have evolved to a new phase in the global terrorist threat.

MARSH (voice-over): The head of Homeland Security revealing today, even more airport security measures are on the way.

JOHNSON: We're looking at doing more in the short-term in reaction to some of the threat streams that we are seeing now.

MARSH: This after DHS announced earlier this week, ramped up searches at U.S. airports over fears terrorists are creating non-metallic explosives -- capable of passing through some airport scanners undetected.

(on camera): So, when you talk about more measures as far as aviation goes, what would that look like? What's the timeline for that? And what is this new intelligence --

JOHNSON: We're looking at it right now and I told my folks that I wanted an assessment in the very short-term. So, I expect to get that in the next couple days.

MARSH: So, it's unclear what the extra measures would be?

JOHNSON: We're looking at it right now.

MARSH (voice-over): Additional random passenger and luggage checks are now happening at the gate, once travelers have cleared TSA checkpoints. After al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula published a guide to building hard-to-detect bombs.

Following September 11th, transportation systems continue to be a target for terrorists.

In 2005, four suicide bombs detonated within seconds of each other on a bus, and three different trains traveling through London underground stations.

In 2010, Najibullah Zazi pleaded guilty for plotting to blow up New York subways.

JOHNSON: We need to focus on homeland-based threats.

MARSH: Just this week, an electrical malfunction caused smoke to fill a D.C. metro station, killing one and injuring dozens. Passengers were left waiting for more than 40 minutes before emergency responders helped them evacuate, raising serious questions about how prepared the U.S. is to respond to emergencies on the nation's transportation system.

BLAIR RUBLE, VICE PRESIDENT FOR PROGRAMS, WILSON CENTER: One does have to wonder what would have happened had that fire been set by terrorists. And, clearly, the response was inadequate.

MARSH (on camera): Well, Johnson struck a reassuring tone saying that the department is assessing new intelligence and threats every day and every hour.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Rene Marsh, thank you for that.

The question: Is the U.S. putting its security efforts in the right places?

Bob Baer joins me again, also Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

Bob, let me -- let me read you this excerpt from a very interesting article from "The Daily Beast's" Shane Harris.

It writes, "What they got last week in Paris, a completely different kind of attack." He goes on to say, "In claiming credit for last week's decidedly lower-tech shooting spree at the offices of 'Charlie Hebdo', AQAP seems to have flipped its playbook, leading to inevitable questions about whether U.S. officials misjudged the terror group's capabilities or were too focused on the wrong threat, bombs instead of bullets."

Good point, Bob? BAER: Well, I think, Poppy, we should be worried about both. Al-

Siri, the bomb maker for al Qaeda in Yemen, is very capable. He can take PETN, which is a high freezant explosive, he's been able to conceal it in a attorney cartridge. Looks just like the ink.

And, of course, there was the underwear bomber. The underwear bomber failed because he kept the explosive on his leg and it's hydroscopic, it absorbed water and didn't go off. Now, if they had known what they were doing, they could have brought that airplane down.

What scares me is that al Qaeda is advancing in its technology just as the Khorasan Group is. And there's no reason why they both can't do a military style assault in Paris and go after airplanes. It's extremely difficult to bring down an airplane, but if these guys are getting better, will they get to that point? I'd have to ask the experts.

HARLOW: All right. So, General, what can the U.S. do to most effectively prevent attacks on both of these fronts? Aside from all that is being done now, are there lessoned learned from the tragedy we saw play out in Paris in terms of the coordination, of the training, the preparation?

HERTLING: We're dealing with an adaptive enemy, Poppy, and I think whereas we still have to be very concerned with the aviation community and what they do, this is an enemy that's shown that they are going to use potentially lone wolf attacks and individual operation cells like we saw in Paris and like they were about to do in Belgium stealing police uniform, getting into potentially secure locations.

And there are a lot of other potential things as we've seen in combat over the last 12 to 14 years, there are opportunities everywhere to hide an explosive device.

I'm very surprised -- not to try and be scary -- I'm very surprised we haven't seen more attacks like occurred in Paris in the United States yet. They're relatively the easy to do, and again, we're dealing with an adaptive enemy.

We have to be more concerned about the environment and also various ways that these kinds of attacks can occur.

HARLOW: So, Bob, given what the general said about this adaptive enemy, I mean, you're former CIA, right? We rely on guys like you, what you used to do and others to get into the heart of this. With people on the inside is that why you think we haven't had attacks like the ones in Paris here in the United States, for example?

BAER: I've asked that question of serving officials now and they can't explain why, poppy. They've said these I mean are here, they're capable of doing these attacks. I've asked FBI agent, explosive experts about bringing down airplanes with household items. And they've described to me how it works and how easy it would be. And they don't have an answer why it hasn't happened.

I think one of the most important things is we are able to assimilate our immigrant population. I've said this over and over, and people that alive in this country like being here and they just integrate very easily.

In France, Germany, Britain, there's a pool of potential recruit who is know the terrain, who can pick up these skills in Iraq and Syria and strike in Europe. And I think that's why they've got the brunt of it and why we should keep our finger cross that would we haven't seen anything so far.

HARLOW: To you, General, on that point, Bob talks about the importance of assimilating immigrant, assimilating Muslim immigrants, making them feel like part of your community. So no one turns to extremism, but also there's a geographical difference, right, between the United States and Europe.

Bob Baer was talking to us earlier in the program. Do you think that that is key here, General?

HERTLING: I think that's a part of it but I also think we have very close coordination between our intelligent communities now. We did not have that before 9/11. We do have a joint interagency task force combining the CIA, FBI, NSA, all those other organizations with local and regional police forces I think that's attributed to it significantly.

But, Poppy, I wouldn't want to spike the ball in the end zone saying we ear completely safe.

HARLOW: Yes.

HERTLING: I'm very concerned these kinds of attacks continuing not just in Europe but all over the world.

HARLWOW: Yes. No question about it. Thank you very much. Good to have you both on the program.

Coming up next, we're going to talk about ISIS and how relentless the terror group has been on the battlefield and on YouTube using propaganda to successfully recruit new fighters. How is the U.S. military fighting back online? Are wing to enough to win the war on the web? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: ISIS has had suck says recruiting Western fighters with slickly produced images online and putting out images like this one showing its fighters in action on the battlefield all in these highly produced videos. In fact, all we really see are ISIS victory videos.

But where are the videos of ISIS defeats? In a war of images, are Western nations losing the battle with is online?

Earlier, I spoke with Martha Pease, brand expert and CEO of demandwerks.com. Also with and Bob Baer, former CIA operative.

Martha told us what the U.S. should be doing to win the battle of these images.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTHA PEASE, CEO, DEMANDWERKS.COM: ISIS has created a really successful brand, and a brand is an emotional connection with people. When you make that connection, you can scale it. And ISIS has been really effective at using propaganda to move their brand along and to continue to expand their footprint.

In the face of a successful brand where people are looking at ISIS as a winner, I mean, there really needs to be an alternative narrative put out there. Where are the images of ISIS losing? Where are the images of setbacks actually being placed in their path as they move forward? I think there's a real void in the narrative out there of the public perception.

HARLOW: But do you think that when it comes to most people, right, those that aren't attracted to what ISIS does, which is the majority of people, when they put videos out of these horrific beheadings, for example, aren't they in a sense only digging their own grave? Aren't they in a sense only turning us away -- we have such an aversion to seeing that.

PEASE: Right, I think you're absolutely right. For the majority of people in the world, it's an awful image and an awful brand, but that's not who they're talking to.

HARLOW: Right.

PEASE: They're targeting the mostly young men -- I mean, if you think in France 40 percent of the young Muslim men in France are unemployed. That's a perfect target audience for --

HARLOW: Somebody feels disenfranchised.

PEASE: Disenfranchised, they see winning, they see domination, they see success, and, you know, that's a logical magnet for some of those people who turn to.

And from a marketing and branding perspective, what can start to put some boundaries on that is an alternative set of images and an alternative to that brand story, really.

HARLOW: So, it's an interesting point. Bob, when it comes to a national security perspective, right so, much of what he's done in the CIA, you're former CIA, we never know about. So does it bring up the issue of a major national security question, our tactic, et cetera, if the U.S. starts putting out images of how -- I mean, they put out some satellite images but really more graphic images of defeats of ISIS.

BAER: We also as an open society provide most of the propaganda for the Islamic State. You look at the images from Abu Ghraib, even the WikiLeaks, when they're firing rockets at targets in Iraq, and those are replayed and replayed and replayed, and for an uneducated group of people like that live in the slums around Paris, all they can do is identify with Islam and that we are oppressing Muslims, and that's the message that the Islamic State is riding on, and they -- I agree, they are winning.

HARLOW: To Bob's point, Martha, what should be put out?

PEASE: Yes, Bob makes a very good point. I do really question from a brand building perspective whether or not there's something that can be done effectively to at least turn -- broaden the attitude toward the position of ISIS.

HARLOW: And it's such an important point given how many people now are radicalized and even trained online to these ideals. They don't need to travel to Yemen to get this training as they carry out these horrific attacks.

Martha, thank you. Appreciate it. Bob Baer, thank you as well.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: All right. ISIS and al Qaeda arguably the biggest threats against the west, the U.S., right now. But coming up, hear why one U.S. senator insists Iran should be on that list as well if not topping it. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Security stepped up across much of Western Europe tonight and amid a series of separate terror investigations. Here's where it stands right now.

At least 29 people arrested with suspected ties to the Paris terror attacks or to Islamic extremist groups. In Belgium, security is tighter than it has been in decades, evidence of that clear on the streets, as we see from our international correspondent Ivan Watson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Belgians woke up Saturday morning to something they haven't seen in more than 30 years, the deployment of soldiers from the armed forces in two Belgian cities, Brussels and also Antwerp. And this is in response to some of the security threats that have emerged not only in the wake of the "Charlie Hebdo" attack in Paris but also after police went after a suspected jihadi cell in the eastern Belgian city of Verviers. It resulted in a gun battle Thursday night in which two suspects were killed and a third was taken into custody.

Now, Brussels is not only the capital of Belgium, it's also the capital of the European Union. A Europe that is increasingly on edge amid more and more reports of Europeans who have gone to Syria to join the Islamic State, ISIS and are coming back and posing a threat to the continent.

CORNINE FAUT, BELGIAN ARMY CHIEF OF COMMUNICATIONS (though translator): We have moved to stage three of the terror alert threat. We are offering extra protection to ambassadors, Jewish institutions and other organizations at embassies that could be at threat. We need extra vigilance. We need a police reinforcement under the command of the federal police.

WATSON: This is one of the buildings that has gotten additional military protection, the Jewish Museum in Brussels and with good reason because last may it was the target of a deadly attack that resulted in the deaths of four people. A French citizen has since been arrested and charged with murder in connection with that attack. Before the assault here, he believed to have traveled to Syria and to have been linked to the ISIS militant group. There are thousands of Europeans who have made a similar journey, but this little country, Belgium, is believed to have per capita more suspected Jihadis than any other country in Western Europe. Ivan Watson, CNN, Brussels.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: It's stunning also, a Western intelligence source that tells us here at CNN as many as 20 sleeper cells comprising up to 180 people could be ready to strike across Europe at any time. That is an alarming number. Let me bring in my guest from Washington this evening, Illinois Senator Mark Kirk, thank you for being here, Senator, I appreciate it.

SEN. MARK KIRK (R) ILLINOIS: Thank you for having me, Poppy.

HARLOW: From the intelligence that you've heard, I know what we've heard from our sources here at CNN, but given your privy, what you've heard, do you believe that al Qaeda or ISIS is capable of unleashing another big attack like this somewhere or in the U.S. right now?

KIRK: I think we are now safer than we were before 9/11 and not completely safe. We are still vulnerable to a homegrown attack like the one we saw from the man from Ohio, Mr. Cornell, who wanted to attack the U.S. Capitol. Just on his own. So I would say that we're not completely safe, no. Our key vulnerability is probably a local homegrown terrorist.

HARLOW: Right. Right. Well, that has been what officials have been warning about for a long time. That that is the great concern. You believe that there's - is it even a greater threat to America right now. I want to read a quote of yours for our viewers and we can talk about it on the other side. You said "In addition to the threat of terrorists I believe a nuclear Iran is the greatest threat to future generations. I don't want to see our children live in fear of a nuclear attack from Iran." You are saying it sounds like to me we are not paying enough attention to Iran right now as we look at all the threats to this country.

KIRK: What I'm saying is that I'm leading a very broad bipartisan coalition of members of the Senate who are concerned that we can level sanctions on Iran to make sure our children never have to witness a nuclear war in the Persian Gulf. That's a future worth really working hard to avoid.

HARLOW: So, there has been progress, not total progress, but progress made on these nuclear talks between the United States and Iran. The deadline --

KIRK: I would disagree with you, Poppy.

HARLOW: Let me just finish. Let me finish the question, sir, if I could. The deadline is July. And you and also Senator Menendez have come up with this bipartisan bill saying - preparing to levy tougher sanctions against Iran if, if we do not have an agreement on the nuclear front by July. The president has said I will veto that if that comes to my desk. Why work to pass them now and potentially alienate Iran in the process rather than waiting to see what happens on the negotiations front?

KIRK: Remember, Poppy that even the president has said it's less than a 50/50 chance of having the talks work. If we take the president at his word and think of this likely these talks don't work out, we will also need a block of bipartisan sanctions to bring the Iranians back to the table to resume efforts to stop their nuclear program.

HARLOW: And I think the question that some have is even if they certainly agree with that, saying why not wait, you want to see it passed before.

KIRK: You know, the one thing the Iranians need is more time to complete their nuclear arms. We should not have an unlimited time for them to complete the construction of their nuclear arsenal.

HARLOW: So the U.S. and Iran had been working albeit separately right now, not together, to fight ISIS, to take at ISIS. Do you believe there could be an increase in coordination between --

KIRK: Poppy, I would say hiring the Iranians to fight ISIS is like hiring the local town arsonist to be in your volunteer fire department with a 30-year record of commitment to terror. The Iranians are not going to change their stripes just because Barack Obama is the president.

HARLOW: So, no sort of coordination that you'd like to see on that front in the fight against ISIS? Nothing?

KIRK: Actually, Poppy, I don't think it's realistic to think of help from Iran against terror.

HARLOW: All right, Senator, thank you for joining us this evening.

KIRK: Thank you.

HARLOW: I appreciate it.

KIRK: OK. Thank you.

HARLOW: Coming up, an American cartoonist standing up for free speech and urging others to draw cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. She is on al Qaeda's hit list. She is in hiding. What is being done to keep her safe? We'll discuss it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: The late editor of "Charlie Hebdo," Steven Charbonnier, was laid to rest yesterday. He was one of 17 people killed in last week's attack in Paris. Prior to his death he was one of nine men and women and two women on an al Qaeda hit list. Their names and pictures depicted under the headline "Wanted, dead or alive, for crimes against Islam." An American cartoonist is also on that list. She went into hiding four years ago and has not been seen or heard from since. Here's CNN's Alina Machado.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM APPELO, FRIEND OF MOLLY NORRIS: I've been grieving for four years.

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's been that long since Tim Appelo has seen or heard from his colleague and friend, Molly Norris, a Seattle cartoonist who went into hiding in 2010 after receiving death threats from radical Islamists.

APPELO: She is the unlikeliest person to be at the center of an international incident involving hate.

MACHADO: Radical cleric Anwar al Awlaki, said Norris was a prime target for execution for creating cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, proposing an "Everybody draw Muhammad day." Her illustrations depict a likeness of the prophet as several items, including a teacup and a domino.

APPELO: She didn't mean to skewer or offend. She just thought people should lighten up. She was just standing up for free speech.

MACHADO: Norris created the cartoon partly in response to Comedy Central's decision to sensor an episode showing Muhammad. Appelo says Norris followed up the controversial cartoon with this one, encouraging religious tolerance.

APPELO: Her first impulse was not to strike back, but to reach out and embrace.

MACHADO: The FBI told Norris her life was in danger and she decided to disappear. Appelo says she compared the threats to cancer.

APPELO: You never know if it's going to be fine for the rest of your life or erupt at some point and end your life.

MACHADO: Three years after she vanished, Norris' name popped up again, this time on al Qaeda's Most Wanted list in the jihadist magazine "Inspire." The list also included "Charlie Hebdo's" editor, gunned down last week in Paris.

APPELO: It was horrible. I thought, oh now it's raising its head again, but I think really it's been -- it's really been shadowing her ever since.

MACHADO: Former FBI agent Tom Fuentes says assuming a new identity is not easy.

TOM FUENTES, FORMER FBI AGENT: To stay hidden like that would be the equivalent of being dead.

MACHADO: And it often means leaving everything behind, including family and friends.

FUENTES: There's no indication these terrorists are going to say, well, it's been a long time, we forgive and forget.

MACHADO: Alina Machado, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: All right, Alina, thank you for that. Let me bring back in my guest, former CIA operative Bob Baer and also former jihadi helping authorities fight terrorism, Mubin Shaikh. Thank you both for being here. Mubin, let me as you this. When you see that piece, it is chilling to think here in America, it can happen anywhere. Do you think the threat against her life is credible?

MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER JIHADIST: Yes, I do think the threat against her life is credible. The prophet, aleihu (ph) salaam, peace be upon him, to Muslims is more beloved than even our parents, and really the feeling is that imagine your mother being depicted with her genitals displayed, engaging in bestiality, that's going to provoke people.

HARLOW: Bob, can you weigh in on that as well? Because you have a very unique perspective given the fact that you, yourself, got this phone call about four months ago from CIA/FBI saying you yourself landed on an assassination list, yet you're out here talking to us. What did it change in terms of your life?

ROBERT BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Poppy, it changed a lot in the sense that I've spent 30 years in the Middle East and to really understand the place I like to go there a lot. But like I said, four months ago the FBI called me. By the way, they've been great. So has the CIA. It's a duty to warn. They said I ended up on an assassination list, state sponsored. They wouldn't give me any details, but the FBI was very clear, do not leave the country under any circumstances. And I had a new book out. I couldn't go to Paris or London, places like that. It does change your life. You have to take these things credibly. As we saw in Paris. I think it's just the fact here is these wars in the Middle East are coming home, and we're all affected by it. On the other hand, I'm not going to get off the news and I'm not going to go into hiding.

HARLOW: Right.

BAER: By the way, CNN has been great on this too. They haven't been afraid of the story at all. So you just have to continue your life and be cautious. But I've been under threat in the CIA as well, and I understand the politics. I think it was a mistake for the people in Paris at "Charlie Hebdo" editorial staff not to have more security. Did the French go to them because obviously one policeman wasn't enough and they should have known this. Their identities, their -- where they'd lived was all available online. They simply didn't take the precautions they should have.

HARLOW: Mubin, I saw you nodding your head. Did you want to add to that?

SHAIKH: Well, when Bob said that the wars in the Middle East are coming home, you know, if we're going to have an intelligent debate, I think very simplistically grievances and ideology. And when these two mix, this is where you get, radicalization, extremism, and violent extremism. So, you know, there's ban a lot of talk about is Islam to blame, is Islam to blame. There is. There are deviant interpretations of the religion that are castigated by Islam itself that is to blame, but at the same time there is a real-life consequence to engaging in these wars for so long.

HARLOW: And moving quickly before we go, I wonder for you, someone who was part of the jihadi movement then left it, came back to help authorities fight terrorism, has there been backlash to you? Have you had threats on your life?

SHAIKH: Yes, of course. There's been backlash. There's been threats. But, you know, I operate in a domestic context. I don't have blood on my hands. And, you know, I'm not anti-Muslim. I'm very Muslim. So, of course you have to take them credibly, but like Bob said, you know, you just keep on keeping on. Right?

HARLOW: Mubin Shaikh, Bob Baer, thank you both. Appreciate it.

Coming up next, former defense secretary -- CIA director, rather, Leon Panetta says we are entering a new and more dangerous chapter in the war on terrorism. You will hear from him directly, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: The U.S. facing a much more aggressive form of terrorism. That statement coming from former CIA director Leon Panetta in an exclusive interview with our Fareed Zakaria. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEON PANETTA, FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: You've got terrorists coming at us from a lot of different directions, from ISIS, from Boko Haram, from al Shabaab, from AQAP, from other elements of al Qaeda. They are recruiting like crazy from these various wars in Syria and Iraq and Yemen, and they seem to be involved in more planning and more weapons in terms of the types of attacks that they're working on. So I think it's pretty clear from what we're seeing that we are entering a more threatening and more dangerous period in this war on terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: It is a fascinating interview. The whole thing tomorrow on "Fareed Zakaria: GPS" 10:00 a.m. Eastern right here on CNN. Let's talk more about what the former CIA director had to say. Joining me again, Bob Baer, Retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling and also former jihadi Mubin Shaikh who now works with authorities to fight terrorism. Thank you all for being here. General, to you first.

Listening to what Leon Panetta had to say, do you agree with him that this is a metastasized, this is has changed, is a more dangerous enemy?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.) FORMER CMDR. U.S. ARMY EUROPE & SEVENTH ARMY: Most certainly, Poppy. The last 10 to 20 years have been significant in terms of this, and it's because of the collapse of government. It's - there is just a lot of open space out there where these kind of organizations can attempt to do brutal things in wrong names. And I think we're going to see continued emphasis on this until some governments, especially in the Middle East, some in Africa, begin to have a better process for incorporating the security of their people.

HARLOW: Well, and also, economic inclusion and economic opportunity, right? So Bob, there has been a lot of talk about these young, unemployed men being recruited into Jihadi movements and then carrying out attacks like we saw in Paris. When you look at sleeper cells laying in wait, how did they react when other cells get busted?

BAER: Well, let's me go back to General Hertling's comments. And he's absolutely right. First of all, we've got this chaos in the Middle East. Failed states. Syria, Iraq, in sub-Saharan Africa and Nigeria is another failed state in the sense it is in a civil war. It is a lot of death going on in the Middle East. And people in these communities in France and Britain and the rest of it, identify themselves first as Muslims and second as Europeans, whatever country they come from.

So, when you see Muslims being murdered in Iraq or bombing, you know, we are not - we are not targeting civilians, but they are dying. In the drone attacks as well. And you have the civil war between Shia and Sunni. And the combination of all this, is sort of the perfect storm and that's why the wars are coming back here. You know, in Islam, and if it gets worse, as Panetta said, and it will get worse, I think, the more likely we're going to have a strike here.

HARLOW: Well, then Bob, what are you saying, then? I mean are you saying U.S. strategy should change? I mean given the civilians and the drone strikes have taken those lives? What are you saying? That the U.S. should change strategy or else it is inevitable it comes here?

BAER: I think it is time for a strange - to change strategy. Yes, we needed the drones to blunt al Qaeda's offensive on the West. We needed the drones and the bombings in Iraq to blunt the Islamic state and move on Baghdad. But now we have to come to the political reality and deal with that, that we held these forces in check. We really do need to change the game plan, because if we don't, we're going to be tied up in 100 years war. I just don't think anybody's ready for it, and I don't think we would win it.

HARLOW: Mubin, do you agree with that, that if the U.S. strategy were to change in terms of the drones strikes, for example, in terms of the offensive against ISIS, for example, in al Qaeda, that that would in some way change any attacks that maybe being planned against the United States?

SHAIKH: Partially. I think there are a number of layers to this, of course. One layer is the part of the reason why the U.S. is targeted is because of the interventions in those places. So, even if they were to pull out, let's say, just suddenly withdraw everything, maybe that - maybe that would do something, but I don't think even if they -- by the time it changes there is so much politicking that goes on in the U.S. By the time that even happens I mean there would have been attacks in the works being planned long before any kind of change would materialize.

HARLOW: General, some have said that we've seen a real transition here between like al Qaeda being led by Osama bin Laden. You know, really fighting against the U.S. interventionalism, right, in areas of the world. And then ISIS, whose goal is to create an Islamic state, a caliphate as quickly as they can with a wide swath of land in terms of what they are grabbing. Do you believe that the reasons behind what is motivating this have changed somewhat?

HERTLING: I believe they have changed significantly. The ideology of bin Laden and al Qaeda is completely different than that of Baghdadi in ISIS. But it doesn't matter. I agree with both of the other guests in that we can't kill our way out of this. There has got to be other strategies that bring in governments and a learned people to help build this throughout the world. There's got to be leadership throughout the Middle East, throughout the world in solving some of these problems. We can't continue to just drop bombs. And I think the American culture is such that we have a quick mentality of let's do this and get it over with. This is a generational --

HARLOW: Oh, it looks like we lost our guest there, but thank you all for the conversation. Bob Baer, General Mark Hertling and Mubin Shaikh. We're going to be right back after a quick break with something to smile about. What many are calling the video of the day? That is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Bill Cosby is performs his first of two scheduled shows this hour in Denver. Attendees were met by protestors outside of the theater where he is performing. They are speaking out against sexual assault claims against Cosby. At least 15 women have accused Cosby of sexual misconduct. The 77-year-old denies the allegations and has not been charged.

Pope Francis swapping his (INAUDIBLE) for a yellow pancho today. Despite high winds and drenching rains, thousands of worshippers showed up for the service in Philippines. This is the same area that was devastated by a super typhoon back in 2013, but as today's typhoon worsened, the pope was forced to cut short the huge outdoor mass. A lot of people talking about that video.

And the CNN family has lost a legend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STUART LOORY: I'm Stuart Loory, cable news network, managing editor, reporting from Washington.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: Stuart Loory, veteran journalist and a former vice president of broadcasting died Friday at his home in Brooklyn. He oversaw the Washington and Moscow bureaus and also helped launch the first ever Goodwill Games. His passion for telling a good story led him around the world. Stuart Loory was 82.

And in Europe today, more rising terror tension in Belgium. This hasn't been seen in more than 30 years. Army troops with their weapons on the streets of Brussels, they are working alongside the police to guard the city as the terror alert hovers at its highest level. Several intelligence agencies are predicting another terrorist attack in Western Europe, possibly in Belgium or in the Netherlands. These are countries that have suspects in custody this weekend either linked to this month's deadly shooting in Paris, or suspected of belonging to Islamic extremist groups.

Stay with CNN and cnn.com for breaking news any time. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. Thank you so much for spending part of your evening with us. Coming up next tonight on CNN, two special reports. First up, "The O.J. Trial: Drama of the Century." That's next.