Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Bobby Jindal's Controversial Comments on Islam; 24 Hostages Freed from Boko Haram in Nigeria; Jihad Jane Became Terrorist for "Love"; Israel, Lebanon Contestants Spar at Pageant

Aired January 19, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal spoke today to a London think tank saying, quote, "I'm interested only in dealing with reality and facts." But minutes later, the Republican presidential prospect brought up so-called Muslim-only go-no zones, telling the Henry Jackson society, quote, in the West, non- assimilationist Muslims establish enclaves and carry out as much of Sharia Law as they can without regard for the laws of the democratic countries which provided them a new home."

Our Wolf Blitzer just spoke with Governor Bobby Jindal. He is with us here to talk about their discussion.

Did he provide any proof, Wolf, of the no-go zones and did he explain what he meant by that?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I kept pressing him about specific neighborhoods and locations, whether London, Birmingham, other times in England where there may be these so-called Muslim no-go zones. He did refer to an article in the "Daily Mail" citing one police officer saying there were these Muslim no-go zones.

Let me play the exchange I had with the governor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBY JINDAL, (R), GOVERNOR OF LOUISIANA: You had a police chief here in London today say to the "Daily Mail there are absolutely neighborhoods -- I'm not talking about entire cities, as others have tried to suggest. I'm saying there are neighborhoods where the police say they don't go as frequently. And there are neighborhoods where women don't feel comfortable walking without veils. And you're right, no, we don't see that in America. We wouldn't tolerate that in America. But in America, if we continue to allow folks to come in without insisting on assimilation, on integration, this is what lies in our future. And what I worry about, in America, it's politically correct to say, well, that's a religious difference. This is not a religious difference. We need Muslim leaders to stand up and denounce these radical Islamists, and say that -- not only condemning the violence, condemning these individuals and saying thse are not martyrs.

BLITZER: I just want to be precise, Governor, you are not backing away from your comments about there being various so-called no-go zones in the United Kingdom?

JINDAL: Not at all. And I'm also making a bigger, maybe even more controversial point that radical Islam is a great threat. We need Muslim leaders to denounce the individuals and not just the acts of violence, and that also it is absolutely correct to insist on assimilation, to insist that people coming into our society, into our country adopt our values.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: I did check, Brianna, to see if there was such an article talking about the no-go zones. There is. Murders and rapes going unreported in no-go zones for police as minority communities launch their on justice systems. That was the headline, "Rising Community Justice in Midlands." Cutting number of police calls, forces more general mutilations and honor killings are being kept hidden, follows the convictions of a Muslim patrol group last year for enforcing Sharia law. That was the article I assume he were referring to. And the chief inspector was quoted in that article. But when I kept asking where are these neighborhoods, he didn't give specifics. As you heard, Brianna, he is not backing away from that at all despite all the controversy it's generating.

KEILAR: He's not shying away. And I wonder how much has to do with getting attention. You look at this new poll of Republican who is may be running for period, Governor Jindal didn't rate so well. 14 percent of Republicans would want him to run in 2016. A lot of this poll is about name recognition. How do you think this speech and his attention will affect that?

BLITZER: He has great name recognition in Louisiana, but not nationwide, at least not yet. I asked him at the end of the interview, do you want to be president of the United States? He is praying and discussing with his family and thinking about it. He will make up his mind in the next few months. I got the impression he's seriously thinking about it. And maybe these speeches will help generate support among conservative Republicans. I don't know if he's going to run or wants to be vice president. He's term limited. He can't seek another election as the Louisiana governor. He has two terms already. But he is a very smart guy. In the United Kingdom, he was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford. He knows something about the United Kingdom. He spoke about the issues and he is not backing away at all.

KEILAR: Any time a high-profile politician gets attention out, your antenna start to go off for sure.

Great interview, Wolf. Thanks so much.

And Wolf is going to have a lot more of his interview with Bobby Jindal tonight in "The Situation Room," live at 5:00 p.m., here on CNN. We will be tuning in for that.

Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you. KEILAR: It was one of the biggest abductions by Boko Haram outside of Nigeria. 80 people snatched from their homes. Those homes burned by brutal Islamic terrorists. Now a Nigerian official says 24 hostages have been freed by soldiers from neighboring Cameroon. The fear lingers that the militant group known for enslaving women and using children as weapons could further expand its reach.

Joining us to discuss is J. Peter Pham, who the director of the Atlantic Council's Africa Center and one of the U.S. experts on Boko Haram.

Peter, thanks for being with us.

J. PETER PHAM, DIRECTOR, ATLANTIC COUNCIL'S AFRICA CENTER: Thank you for having me.

KEILAR: This latest attack follows a deadly assault in Baga last week where as many as 2,000 civilians were killed. Is Boko Haram capable of expanding further in to neighboring countries?

PHAM: Boko Haram have been active in these countries, not with the flagrant violation we've seen in the last week, the attack on the military and this massive kidnapping, but they have been active for a number years. Earlier last year, they kidnapped the wife of the deputy prime minister of Cameroon, who was freed after the payment of a half million dollars in ransom. It's done this before, will probably continue to do so as it seeks to expand its area of operation beyond where it's already seized territory in northwestern Nigeria.

KEILAR: Tell us more about how big a threat Boko Haram is. I've heard experts describe them almost more like a gang, as thugs operating in Nigeria, and more of the criminal element and less motivated by ideology. You connected the tactics and success of Boko Haram to that of ISIS, the military, territorial gain, the use of kids in suicide attacks. Do you think it's more of a threat than ISIS, if you can make a comparison?

PHAM: Certainly. I think Boko Haram is evolving. Describing them as a gang of thugs would have been true, but they have two times since then. It's full-blown and controls an area the side of the state of West Virginia. It governs the people by the strict Sharia Law. It manages to do things that is has not done idea including shooting down a fighter jet during combat and executing the pilot. It has overrun the multi-national forces. So this is a group that changed considerably. And the nature of the threat is perhaps greater, not in terms of territory or location, but they have powerful countries in their region, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran. Nigeria is a regional power and it's reeling from Boko Haram. There no alternatives that have the power to contain it.

KEILAR: A lot of Americans have been paying attention after the capture of hundreds of school girls in April. We saw the U.S. sending in reinforcements to find them at that point. But what role has the U.S. played since?

PHAM: The U.S. has, in addition to sending last year surveillance drones and intelligence and other people involved, we have tried to train the military and that training was started and went through two phases, and for various reasons was discontinued. I think there was a misunderstanding on both sides. Hopefully, it will be patched up. Nigeria has the largest military budget in all of Africa, more than $6 million. They need the ability and the will to face this.

KEILAR: The political will, speaking of that, you have elections not too far off here in the next year. How do you think that's going to affect the crisis?

PHAM: Unfortunately, this is going to be a moment of opportunity for them. The group rejects democracy and that will be too tempting to pass up. They will try to exploit the elections as a target of opportunity. In three Nigeria states in the far north eastern part, they said that they will have difficulty holding elections because Boko Haram has seized territory and people are displaced. It's going to wreak havoc with the balloting and potentially with the results and the legitimacy of what happens afterwards.

KEILAR: Very possibly disrupting the process there.

Thank you very much, Peter. Appreciate your being with us.

PHAM: Thank you for having me.

KEILAR: Peter Pham talking with us.

Still ahead, the latest on the anti-terror raids across Europe as the manhunt expands beyond France and Belgium and into Greece.

Plus, the rise of the female jihadist. We will go inside the mind of an American woman who converted to Islam, who is serving time for plotting jihad. We have that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: A blue-eyed, blond American calling herself Jihad Jane admits to plotting to kill a Swedish cartoonist for his depiction of Muhammad. Her real name is Colleen LaRose. She became obsessed with jihad while living in Pennsylvania. She is now serving 10 years in federal prison. While behind bars, Jihad Jane exchanged letters with my next guest, criminologist, Kimberly Mehlman-Orozco.

Kimberly, thanks so much for coming on to talk to us.

Interesting to hear your perspective. And I want to read part of the letter that Jihad Jane wrote to you. She says, "The simplest reason is I did it for love. Love my prophet and love for the brother that gave me the assignment. Also I think I did it for pride. Sisters are never given assignments like the one I was given."

A lot stands out to me about this, Kimberly, but it seems like she is saying her motives were love and feminine pride to kill someone. Help us understand that.

KIMBERLY MEHLMAN-OROZCO, CRIMINOLOGIST: It's difficult for people on the outside to conceptualize what she is talking about. That is how she views her crime. As far as the love she has for her religion, it is common across the terrorists something that's reverberated in jihadist propaganda material. This perception of the love to the jihadist who gave her this assignment as well as something that is unique to women in the jihad movement, and it's something that is shocking and defies rationality for people on the outside. It's something we need to look at their motives as to why they commit these horrendous crimes.

KEILAR: ISIS continues to expand and takes over Iraq and Syria. The women are going over there to join them. Women have been arrested, and three teens from Denver and another in Denver. Help us understand the allure for women. What is the draw?

MEHLMAN-OROZCO: For women, in addition, they have a very extreme interpretation of religion and Islam, as well as an obscure interpretation of the Koran. They are drawn into romantic relationships. And the perception is they are doing this for the men they have a romantic relationship with. We will see an increase in the number of women who have been recruited. It's something that draws them to an element of allure and they want to prove themselves to these men, and could be more violent types of terrorists.

KEILAR: It seem like some of them have this view, but the reality is much different when they get over there. Given their devotion, in your correspondence with her, is she remorseful, she has three more years left in her sentence. What that will mean if she is not?

MEHLMAN-OROZCO: I don't think that she is whatsoever. She perceives that there is an element of justice and she is perceiving that to see the reflective. I have reason to believe she is scheduled to be released, but the fact that she is scheduled to be released in about years in July 2018 is a little bit shocking and makes us a little apprehensive to know that people who continue to have this perception of terrorism and justify it in a way that it doesn't make rational sense to the majority of society.

KEILAR: Given that, how concerned are you to know she'll be released in a few years?

KEILAR: -- the plans were -- go ahead.

MEHLMAN-OROZCO: I'm extremely, concerned, especially being a criminologist and knowing the available literature. I know there is a dearth of research to say the strategies have been successful in reducing the incidence of terrorism. A doctor did a review and found over 20,000 studies to evaluate counter-terrorism strategies, of which only seven had moderately regress method. Those seven actually concluded that our counter-terrorism interventions have no effect or can displace them, so being aware of this information and looking into the motivations of convicted terrorists and knowing they are going to be released and they're being recruited in staggering numbers is concerning. We need to look to more evidence-based methods for reducing incidents of terrorism and actually preventing the recruitment before it happens.

KEILAR: Increasingly becoming harder with the use of the Internet and how they see ISIS use it as a recruiting tool.

Kimberly, thank you very much. Really interesting to chat with you.

MEHLMAN-OROZCO: Thank you for having me.

KEILAR: Coming up next in NEWSROOM, the story behind this seemingly innocuous selfy at the Miss Universe pageant, now sparking a debate, and widening the writhe between two countries in the Middle East. Wait until you hear this one.

Also ahead, we have a live report from Yemen, where the U.S. embassy is on high alert amid a rebel attack on the government. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: World peace is the go-to cliche for any pageant-related question, but it may be worth revisiting at this year's Miss Universe pageant. Miss Lebanon, Sally Greige, has faced some fierce criticism after appearing in a selfie -- seen right here -- with Miss Israel on the left. Some hateful comments, even calling for Miss Lebanon's crown. What did she do? She pulled the photo bomb card, saying, quote, "Since the first day of my arrival to participate in Miss Universe, I was very cautious to avoid to being in any photo or communication with Miss Israel. I was having a photo with Miss Japan, Miss Lavenia (ph), and myself. Suddenly+, Miss Israel jumped in, took a selfy, and put it on social media." Miss Israel, on the other hand, keeping that photo on her page. She's making no apologies, but said it makes her sad.

Joining me to talk about this, we have Sulome Anderson, a Lebanese journalist.

And you may recognize her because she took a photo that went viral under the hash tag, #JewsandArabsrefusetobeenemies.

Sulome, I understand there is a Lebanese TV outlet that came down hard on Miss Lebanon. Are people around Beirut upset about this selfie?

SULOME ANDERSON, LEBANESE JOURNALIST: Certainly not. I can say that we have much larger things to worry about here. Israel carried out a strike against Hezbollah and Syria. We have ISIS on the northern border and I believe there is a refugee crisis where people are facing starvation. Pageant selfies are not high on the agenda for most of us.

KEILAR: OK, I think you also see this as a bit of a symbol perhaps.

I want to show the viewers a tweet that you put out. You said, "So ISIS is massing on one border, Israel on another, and all I can find on a new search is beauty contestant selfies."

Do you think this is sort of a symbol of something that is going on and maybe speaks to the larger issues?

ANDERSON: There is a very real issue that these two countries are at war and have been in conflict for a long time. At the same time on a certain level there social norms that need to be adhered to in light of the facts, but at the same time, turning this into a scene for "Mean Girls" trivializes that lives that will be lost.

KEILAR: I understand what you're saying. I think it speaks to the sensitivity here. And I wonder what you think about the fact that maybe we don't expect pageant queens to hold diplomacy roles, but at the same time, when you have the scenes that exist, do you think contestants have a responsibility to maybe rise to an occasion? I wonder if you think she should have responded differently.

ANDERSON: That's a good question and a tough one. Given the context of the situation, of her persona, perhaps she should have responded differently. But if you understand anything about how deep those tensions are in the Mideast, it makes sense that she would have responded the way she did. I'm not saying I agree, but it makes sense.

KEILAR: Yeah. No, I think you're very right. It's very telling and that's why I think it's maybe worth paying attention to, even though it does boil down to some pageant drama as well.

We really appreciate your insight.

Sulome Anderson, thank you so much.

Top of the hour.