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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield
Hunt for Terror Cells Across Europe; Violence Erupting in Yemen; Police in Florida Use Mug Shots as Targets
Aired January 19, 2015 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.
From France to Greece, there is a massive manhunt underway right now for potential terror cells right across Europe. Two terror suspects with possible ties to a foiled Belgium plot to attack police officers now in custody this morning. This after trying to cross from France into Italy. French investigators also now looking for two more people whose DNA was found on the belongings of Amedy Coulibaly and the man behind the deadly kosher store siege in Paris. An intelligence source telling CNN that some of the DNA was found on a gun magazine belonging to that now dead terrorist. And a second sample was found in a vehicle.
In the meantime, Greek authorities have arrested a suspect who could also be connected to terrorist activities in Belgium. Belgian authorities are requesting an extradition of that person now. The Greek police say that they have made multiple arrests and are now looking for more individuals.
Joining me now with more on these fast developments, CNN's Jim Bittermann, live in Paris, with the latest on Europe's search for potential terrorists.
It sounds like the whole E.U. is going very aggressively after this. Do they think they have the right people? Do they feel like they have a handle on it?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't think the terrorist investigators will ever say that they have a handle on it. I think just because of the surprise by which they were taken last week when the attack occurred on "Charlie Hebdo," I think that it was such a glaring error on the part of the terrorism investigators that they're not going to get in the position of saying that they have got things under control. And, in fact, people are telling us and right up to the president of France saying, you know, this is not something that's over. We have an ongoing problem here. And I think what we're seeing here is basically they're going after the usual suspects in some regards.
They're going after anybody who is on their radar. And, for instance, in France, in the case of Amedy Coulibaly, who you talked about there in the lead-in, they're not only looking for the two people whose DNA was found and they don't know where they are, but they've also had -- first they had 12 and now they're down to nine people who have been in custody since last Friday morning. And those 9 are being questioned by police. We're going to find out exactly how connected they are to the attacks I think tomorrow morning because the French police, under the law, can only hold them and question them without a lawyer for 96 hours in terrorism cases. So by tomorrow morning, they really have got to charge them or let them go. And we'll see what kind of charges might be laid -- some of them may be released if they find out they had nothing to do with Coulibaly's attack. But there also may be some charges filed on that (INAUDIBLE).
BANFIELD: Jim, there's a lot of criticism that's flying around regarding the French and their ability to continue the surveillance on the Kouachi brothers and perhaps Coulibaly, as well, and not to mention Hayat Boumeddiene, who was able to travel freely throughout Europe on her way to Turkey and after that Syria. What's being made of these intelligence lapses? Are they saying they are colossal failures, mistakes, expect this to be happening because there are just so many people to follow? How is it being characterized there?
BITTERMANN: Well, it's a little of all of that, in fact. We're hearing a little bit of what we heard in the United States after 9/11, basically that the agencies, the various intelligence agencies involved, were are not cooperating. They weren't talking to each other. In France you've got domestic intelligence, you've got exterior or foreign intelligence, and you've got an agency, a separate agency that actually does the surveillance, that does the on the ground, listening to phone calls and that sort of thing. It's a communication between that agency and the domestic intelligence agency where there was some kind of a breakdown in a lot of different ways.
For one thing, the Kouachi brothers, coming from a tip by the United States back in 2011 (ph), were put under surveillance. However, only their cell phones were being surveyed and their movements. They were not apparently surveilling the computers. They weren't watching what they were doing on their computers and they weren't watching what one of the brothers' wives was doing. And we think that her phone was being used by one of the Kouachi brothers in order to communicate with the girlfriend of Amedy Coulibaly. So it was just that lag, that kind of a laps that we're seeing and we're hearing - CNN has found out about in the last few days here, Ashleigh.
BANFIELD: All right. Jim Bittermann live for us in Paris, monitoring those developments. Thank you for that.
Our counterterrorism experts are monitoring this as well. And here to discuss this, CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank and CNN military analyst Major General James "Spider" Marks.
Spider, let me go to you first, if I can. You heard Jim. He's saying that this is looked at as a little bit of everything. A colossal failure, an accident, and to be expected with just the sheer volume of those they have to surveil. But that's not good enough when you look at the number of dead in, you know, in the last couple of weeks and the number of arrests that are spanning the globe at this point. What are the French to make of what they've done and how are they to change that going forward? JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Ashleigh - well, good
morning, first of all, and thanks. That's a great question. The issue really is not simply, how did the intelligence work or how did it not work. Look, at the end of the day, these individuals that were involved in this attack, their connections and their network were known. These were in the databases. Collection activities had taken place. So intelligence had done an incredibly good job in terms of identifying themselves or identifying these bad folks.
What the issue becomes is, what decisions were made or what restrictions were in place in terms of what you can do about that intelligence. You know, there really is a difference between intelligence failure and operational success. And right now we've got to move these two together so that everybody cooperates. What you're going to see organizationally is not unusual. Most - I mean not unusual at all when we look at it in terms of what happened post-9/11 and all the investigations that took place. There will be organizational redesigns. A lot of folks are going to be guarding their turf. There's a lot of organizational huberous (ph) that's involved. And what has to happen, Ashleigh, is everybody's got to open this up and be very, very transparent and say, look, borders are punitive, we -- time is almost irrelevant in this case. We've got to be able to have complete transparency and openness and we have to be a little bit more aggressive in terms of how we conduct our intelligence collection operations, where the fusion of all of that takes place and how it is disseminated among all participating nations and those that aren't in groupings like the E.U., those that we choose to work with bilaterally.
BANFIELD: Well, and, of course, that -- how the intel is gathered, of course, ends up encroaching on civil rights issues, not just in the United States but elsewhere as well.
MARKS: Sure.
BANFIELD: Paul Cruickshank, weigh in on this. I keep coming back to the notion that it's hard enough to find people who might be up to no good, let alone let them go and drop them off the surveillance list only to have them do this. You know it frustrates to no end that that's possible. But there's a reason it's possible. There's a reason they were dropped off the list. And it's something they really have to identify and work with. Why did they do it? Why did they let them go?
PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, the bottom line is because they're having to monitor so many people in France right now. They have security surveillance on 5,000 people in France. So they have to prioritize. They got a tipoff from the Americans in November of 2011 that these brothers, at least one of them, had traveled to Yemen, suspected to have gone to a training camp. In the years that followed, they did monitor them very, very closely, including wiretaps. But by the summer of last year, they decided the brothers were no longer dangerous and the -
BANFIELD: But they weren't listening - I mean you heard Jim Bittermann, they weren't listening to their wives' cell phone and that's a no-brainer. They weren't tapping their computers. It's the first tool. Why wouldn't they be doing that? What kind of surveillance was this?
CRUICKSHANK: Well, obviously, you know, big questions, why weren't they listening to their wives' cell phones. But from a sort of judicial point of view, you can only sort of wiretap somebody in France if they're a terrorism suspect. The wives were not themselves terrorism suspects. You're also allowed to do intelligence wiretaps in France, but there's pushback from, you know, from supervising authorities, the number of those you can do. So you really have to be sure that they're a priority target.
These brothers, it appears they did everything when they got back from Yemen to camouflage their radicalization, to pretend they were not these radical extremists anymore.
BANFIELD: Yes, but so did the 9/11 attackers. They were with hookers in Vegas. That didn't mean that they weren't dangerous. And we learned that lesion, 13, 14 years ago. That's why I don't understand why those lessons weren't extrapolated into Europe.
CRUICKSHANK: Well, they're going to -
BANFIELD: It doesn't matter what they're doing now.
CRUICKSHANK: They're going to be - they're clearly, you know, lessons need to be learned here.
BANFIELD: Yes.
CRUICKSHANK: But on a day to day, week to week basis, intelligence services need to make judgment calls when it comes to priorities. I mean that's just the nature of this. They don't have infinite resources. And, you know, so it's possible in the future more of these attacks will slip through, unfortunately.
BANFIELD: Or the civil rights will be encroached on even more so, so that they can -
MARKS: Can I jump in here for a second.
BANFIELD: Yes, jump in quickly. Last word, Spider.
MARKS: Absolutely. The challenge that exists is clearly what has taken place in the United States in light of the Patriot Act could not take place in France. Those type of civil liberties would never be collapsed as they have - as they were in the United States on the heels of 9/11. I just don't see that happening in France, unless this is the wake-up call that allows that to be - to happen.
BANFIELD: And, you know, we are only in the first stages since and it's just settling in to their - their larger consciousness.
General Marks, thank you for that. Do appreciate it.
MARKS: Thanks, Ashleigh.
BANFIELD: Paul Cruickshank, thank you as well. I want to remind everybody to be sure to tune into our special
tonight. We're going to be airing at 9:00 tonight here on CNN one of the Paris attackers and the other one "The War Within Islam." So make sure you tune in to our special coverage, our special reporting tonight here on CNN.
And we want to move now to another terror related story, violence erupting outside the government palace in the capital of Yemen. The government says this is a coup, folks, a coup attempt. And it's significant because this country is home to one of the most dangerous factions of al Qaeda. The same factions that ordered what happened in France, live, next.
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BANFIELD: After bloody fighting and growing unrest in Yemen, the country's interior minister says that rebels and the government have now agreed to a cease-fire. In this brand new video, you can see the scene from the fighting outside the presidential palace and what the government calls an attempt to seize power there. An attempt. The U.S., of course, is concerned about its embassy there.
The situation is particularly troubling because Yemen is home to what the U.S. considers the most dangerous faction of al Qaeda. The same faction that's claimed responsibility for the terror attacks in Paris. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is live in Yemen.
So, first and foremost, the situation right now, if you could just update us as to what the circumstances are in the streets right now and what the situation is for the embassy staff at the U.S. embassy.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's very quiet here in Yemen, in Sanaa, the capital. The health ministry has just announced the death toll from today's fighting, nine dead and 67 injured. No death toll is small for those who it affects. But the sound of the clashes we heard did suggest potentially something larger.
We've heard the intermittent noise of explosions in the capital, in the past hours or so, but it does more or less seem that the ceasefire that seemed to come around about 4:30 local time is more or less holding. It's basically the end of an extraordinarily messy day of fighting. The presidential staff worried that after their chief of staff was kidnapped by the Houthis movement, more of the males will be abducted. They put in road block security. The Houthis didn't like that. Fighting started. No one knows quite who began it, but it escalated to an artillery fight around the presidential administration.
Talks for a ceasefire ended in a bit of a mess when the prime minister's convoy got shot up as he left those talks, as did the Houthis representative. State TV was claimed to have fallen to the Houthis. That didn't appear to be something the Houthis accepted happened. A lot of explosions. Residential areas targeted. But now this eerie calm and a fear too that if the political talks happening now behind closed doors, no one knows what they're about, if they don't yield results, we could see that ceasefire lapse.
Ashleigh.
BANFIELD: So well that -- that's all fine that things are quiet now, but the video I'm seeing from earlier is nothing short of mayhem in the streets. I don't know how the State Department does its business or makes it decisions or when, but is there any word about the plan for the Americans at that embassy, whether things calm down or not? What are they going to do about the American interests there?
WALSH: Well, the American embassy is set back from the area where a lot of the fighting happened and there - I've been there recently. It's very secure. A lot in place there to defend the American personnel. I have to say, they're not in any differing state. Their councilor (ph) services, they tell me, are acting as per normal today. They haven't reduced their numbers as a result of what's been happening today. I think people still trying to work out quite where this leads.
And it is mostly concentrated to the far distances where I'm standing at the moment. So I think most people looking to see whether these political talks go anywhere. Of course, the State Department will be anxious to keep their people as safe as possible. But at this current moment in time, the threat is pretty far from their door.
Ashleigh.
BANFIELD: All right, Nick Paton Walsh live for us. Just make sure you're careful and you and your team, you know, exercise the utmost caution at this time. Nick, thank you for that. We're going to keep an eye on this updated story.
Of course, around the world, there are developments. But there's something else that's developing in Florida, and the police really have some explaining to do after they used old mug shots for target practice. Turns out the sister of one of the people in these mug shots simply outraged after lining up fire and seeing her own brother at the other end of the target range. Yes. Explaining, that's next.
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BANFIELD: So police in Florida are trying to explain why they used some old mug shots, real mug shots of real people for sniper target practice. Real sniper target practice. The mug shot targets, and you're looking at them now, were discovered by a member of the Florida Army National Guard. She was out doing some target practice when she just happened to look down range and see her brother's face staring back at her riddled with bullet holes. Her brother. Her brother's picture was among five other mug shots of black men that were being used as a target by the North Miami Beach Police sniper team.
CNN's Jason Carroll joins us from Florida.
Jason, when I say a list of six black men, the first thing someone would think is, that is revolting.
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
BANFIELD: Why would they put six black men's faces up. I want everyone to be very clear, this is one set and there were plenty of other sets that included white, Hispanic, female, et cetera.
CARROLL: That's true.
BANFIELD: But can you kind of run down what the police are saying about what they chose to do.
CARROLL: Well, look, they're saying a lot of things. First of all, yes, they did use those images. First, to talk about their training. North Miami Beach Police Chief Jay Scott Dennis made it clear that this practice of using people who look alike is very important for sniper training because you want to make sure that the sniper is shooting the correct image, not someone who looks like that person in that particular image. The question here is not about using all black people, all white people, all Hispanic people. The question is, why would you use mug shots from people who are still alive and well and living here in the community.
That is the point that Valerie Deant brought up. That is the point that her brother brought up. When we spoke to them this weekend, they said it was outrageous, completely insensitive to them and to people here in the community.
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WOODY DEANT, MUG SHOT USED FOR TARGET PRACTICE: There's a bullet hole in my forehead. There's a bullet hole in my eye. So those are kill shots. So now when I walk out my house, I have to walk out my house with my back turned. I've got to make sure that I'm extra careful, and I'm extra doing the right thing. And I don't want to live like that, you know, because I didn't do anything wrong.
VALERIE DEANT, FOUND BROTHER'S MUG SHOT AT SHOOTING RANGE: Even if it was practice in the past, with everything being on high sensitivity between our communities and the police department, why would you still be practicing something like that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: A lot of questions there. One of the other points that Valerie brought up, she said perhaps if the police chief had initially just apologized outright for what had happened, maybe they would not have taken their story to the press. But that didn't happen because initially the police chief said he didn't see anything wrong with the practice. That has since changed. He did release a statement to us over the weekend basically saying, "we realize how important this issue is in today's climate." And going forward they will not be using mug shots anymore. Basically what they're going to be doing is they're going to be getting images from another company going forward.
He also made a point that no laws were broken here. No department policy was violated here. That's especially upsetting to Valerie and her brother. I also want to point out, Ashleigh, that the mayor has weighed in on
this as well, basically saying that he felt as though that the practice was, quote, "unacceptable." He has now called for legislation to ban it outright in the future.
Ashleigh.
BANFIELD: OK. And can I be really clear that Woody Deant is the person that was interviewed saying that he was upset by this. He was arrested. He was convicted. He did serve time.
CARROLL: Right.
BANFIELD: He has since lived, he says he's since lived a very clean living life. He's a father and this is just sort of really devastating to see this brought up. This is long ago, right? Several years ago that he had taken that (INAUDIBLE).
CARROLL: Right. Absolutely. And, remember, Ashleigh, this happened when he was 18.
BANFIELD: OK.
CARROLL: So that picture, that image that was used when he was 18, he says, look, I've served my time. I've paid my dues. Time to move on. My image should not have been used.
BANFIELD: OK. All right, Jason Carroll, hold that thought for a moment. I want to bring in Paul Callan, Joey Jackson.
No laws broken, no department policy infringed upon and yet it just doesn't feel right. So weigh in on the ramifications of what this family might have. Any recourse?
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think they may have recourse. And it doesn't feel right because it's just stupid on its face for the police to be doing this. They could hire a model, OK. I understand why you've got to be able to distinguish between people of different races and genders and whatnot for sharp shooters. That's understandable. So hire a model. Or if you're going to use a mug shot, get the permission of the person whose mug shot it is.
Now, will the families have remedies here? It's kind of a stretch, but there are some theories. One is, is this a commercial exploitation of somebody's appearance? And if they were trying to sell a product and they put your picture on the product, that clearly would be actionable under Florida law. Now here's my theory. It may be a stretch. By putting - by using that picture, they could go out and just buy sort of a generic picture, but they used his picture and they saved themselves the money of hiring a model. So maybe that's a commercial exploitation, that's an invasion of privacy and a right of publicity violation.
JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. Well -
BANFIELD: Invasion of privacy. But here's the deal. Mug shots are public domain. If you get a mug shot, and especially if you're convicted -
JACKSON: Right.
BANFIELD: You know, you were once a bad guy. That's - that's prevailing wisdom.
JACKSON: They are. But there are limitations. And here's what the limitation is. In Florida you have a property right to your image and likeness. And so, therefore, you can make the argument that maybe there wasn't a law violated but maybe there was. And here's why. Just because your name or your likeness is in the public domain does not allow, otherwise give, an agency the right to exploit it without your consent. And so, therefore, if you have a property right in your image and your likeness, would anybody want their image or likeness used in this way, in such a derogatory way? And so -
BANFIELD: And then let the gun range, for the next customer to see it.
JACKSON: It's a problem. And so - I mean the first law violated is the law of bad judgment to be clear here.
BANFIELD: Yes.
JACKSON: That's not something, particularly, Ashleigh, in this climate where you're looking at, you know, bridging the gap between race relations, between the police and the community, community policing, getting it together, having a better understanding in light of everything that's happened that we've talk about several times.
BANFIELD: Yes.
JACKSON: You know, Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin. It goes on and on. And so, therefore, it's bad judgment. But in terms of a right to publicity, to the extent that I have a right to my image and likeness, that's arguable, in this case a violation.
BANFIELD: So in case someone is tuning in, sort of mid segment, and you're seeing, you know, six black men, it's important it remind the viewers that this policy grouped like looking characters together. So it could have been all single white females. It could have been all Hispanic males. It could have been anything that had similarities. And there were other people in the mix as well. There were Hispanic males.
JACKSON: Yes.
BANFIELD: There were white females, white males and everything.
CALLAN: Because they wanted the sniper to be able to hit the right person -
BANFIELD: They wanted the sniper to be able -
CALLAN: Not black or white -
BANFIELD: To distinguish, right.
CALLAN: But to distinguish between people who were similar in appearance.
BANFIELD: And Jason's listening. I think, Jason, you just learned something else?
CARROLL: Yes. Well, look, I mean one of the other points we wanted to make in this story is, we also reached out to other departments across the country. The Los Angeles Police Department, the New York City Police Department, as well. And when we told them about what had happened here in north Miami Beach, they were a little shocked. They couldn't believe that these types of images of people, mug shots were being used, even for the sniper training. And so when that point was brought up, as well, I think that's why you saw this quick construction, if you will, from the mayor and even from the North Miami Beach Police Department in terms of wanting to change this policy as quickly as possible.
BANFIELD: All right, Jason Carroll, live for us in Miami. Thank you. It just really is unsettling no matter how you look at it. And it's actually -
JACKSON: (INAUDIBLE) can do the trick.
BANFIELD: Valerie Deant saw her brother when she trained, you know, her -
CALLAN: It's a - it's a totally lame defense too.
BANFIELD: I've got to wrap it.
CALLAN: You can teach that on computer by showing people pictures of different - what different people look like, you know.
BANFIELD: I have to leave it there. But there's a lot more to come. Stay tuned, if you will, for a moment, guys. Thank you very much, Jason and Paul and Joey.
With security, by the way, very tight right now, Europe on high alert, the investigation into the terror attacks there netting some brand new suspects, and then some brand new clues, as well. We're going to take you live to Brussels and Belgium where the big topic of the day is, how on earth can they possibly stop any possible future attacks there. That's next.
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