Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Rebels Seize Presidential Palace; ISIS Threatens to Kill Japanese Hostages; Paris Mayor Plans Lawsuit against Fox

Aired January 20, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

We begin this hour in Yemen. The presidential palace is now in control of Shiite rebels there. Yemen's minister of information says, and this is a quote, "the completion of a coup." That's what they're calling it. Adding, the president has no control.

These are the photos that show some of the aftermath of today's attacks near the palace. Buildings now left in rubble. Earlier, take a look at your screen, that's the United States embassy vehicle with bullet holes in it. It was fired upon in Yemen's capital. This photo has been circulated and used by various local media. We're glad to report that that vehicle was actually a hard-sided vehicle, meaning those bullets did not penetrate and no one was injured luckily.

Joining me to talk about the rapidly deteriorating situation in Yemen is CNN's senior international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh, the only western TV journalist right now who is in Yemen reporting. He's also joined by CNN military analyst Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

Nick, if I could start with you. What is the circumstance surrounding the government? Is there any functioning government where you are?

NIC PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's really hard to tell. It's most hard to define really whether this move it seems by Houthis in the streets around the buildings is designed to influence some sort of political settlement or if it's just designed to get rid of it entirely and potentially President Hadi himself. We simply don't know and we are reaching out to Houthis officials to quite where they think this is going to go.

Let me explain what's happening on the streets, though. It's clear, according to the information minister, that the presidential administration that we saw being fought over by -- with heavy artillery yesterday, that is now, as he says, in the hands of the Houthis, as do two interior ministry officials confirm that as well. We saw it, in fact, surrounded by many Houthis gunmen this morning. A contingent of republican guard, though, still well dug in to try and defend it. We're also hearing reports from eyewitnesses and the information minister of people shooting in the streets outside the presidential residence. That's a different building. But that is where President Hadi is at the moment. Now, he is said to be safe, not under threat, but the information minister says she believes this is all part of a broad Houthis move to try and complete a coup here.

And I should point out, the Houthis say yesterday they were attacked first and they are unhappy with the constitution as it currently stands. But we are certainly seeing coordinated attacks. Two other buildings I've seen hit as well. That violence seems to have subsided. So it isn't clear at this stage whether Houthis or the gunmen involved have got what they want and are now stepping back or if there is some sort of political settlement underway. But I should add, the information minister, one of the most vocal cabinet members, in fact, over the past couple of days, and one individual not the entirely of the administration, did say she believes the president had , quote, lost control, as you said, and said really they were looking at the completion of a coup that had begun yesterday.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: If you could just help our viewers to sort of navigate through this because when people hear about Yemen, they understandably think there is a strong al Qaeda influence that has been, you know, freely operating within areas of Yemen. And if you could compare that to the Houthis. Who are the Houthis? Who do they answer to? And what is their relationship potentially with the west and with America?

WALSH: Well, the Houthis stem from north to the capital, where I'm standing, from Sanaa. They're extensively a group, a political movement, which is headed by the Houthis family, founded many other political movements, tribes, militia, falling under that grouping. They have a political wing as well. They have been very successful and increasingly well organized in moving across the country, taking territory, often fighting al Qaeda, too. That means they're effectively forming the Shia half of the Sunni/Shia sectarian divide we're seeing a lot across the Middle East here. The Houthis are predominantly Shia. Al Qaeda, predominately Sunni.

They've been moving across the country. They moved in to Sanaa, the capital. Set up checkpoints months ago. Some residents say, great, your instilling order. But then, of course, they began to clash, both al Qaeda here and with the government, bringing instability to the capital. They seem to want increased lever on power. Some analysts say they don't actually want to have the presidency, they simply want to control it. That is exactly what today is about.

The chaos, though, that benefits al Qaeda, as we've long discussed. It gives them a foothold in the country. But the worrying thing about this too is, many cast this conflict between Houthis and the government or Houthis and Sunni tribes we're often seeing across the country as fitting into that sectarian divide across the region and potentially worrying some Sunnis because they see the Shia on the march here, worrying them to the point where they might think al Qaeda is, in fact, a solution to protect them. That's got some analysts concerned that, in fact, that benefits al Qaeda in two ways, instability and worried Sunnis willing to fight alongside them. Very complicated, Ashleigh, but this is a vitally strategic country, not only in the region, but also for U.S. counter terror efforts.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Well, sitting in the middle of that complication is the United States embassy, staffed with hundreds of people.

I want to bring General Hertling in on this if I can.

General Hertling, CNN has learned that there are two Navy ships, Navy warships that have now positioned themselves into the Red Sea specifically to respond to any kind of need for an evac of that embassy. The USS Iwo Jima and the USS Fort McHenry are now in position. You can see on your screen now, this is the embassy compound in Yemen, in Sanaa, where our Nick Paton Walsh is standing by and reporting live. I know that you have been in operations like this before, general. If you could just give me the layout of what would happen, what exactly might happen given what we're seeing on the ground right now.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Ashleigh what -- first of all, what Nick has said is, Yemen is a strategically important country. Many of us have been watching it very closely in its downward spiral over the last six months. In a noncombatant evacuation operation, there's always tension between the State Department and the military that are involved in getting the people out of there. The military always wants to go fast to make sure everyone is secure. The State Department officials want to stay as long as they possibly can to ensure the coordination with the government.

And in this case, because we don't know, is this a true coup, is there someone in the inside that's going to assume power, or is this just a popular uprising that's trying to influence the government? I think the ambassador probably wants to stay as long as he can. But, again, there's going to be that tension between the military and the State Department on when or if to move the American officials out of that compound.

BANFIELD: And, you know, I can also add that CNN has been doing extensive reporting and digging into the sources in the State Department. The State Department saying it wants to keep that embassy open as long as possible, that it's a valuable tool to monitor al Qaeda in Yemen.

But, of course, with those ships moving into place, all options on the table. General Hertling, thank you for your insight. Nick Paton Walsh, excellent work. And, please, you and your crew stay safe in that very complex and developing circumstance in Sanaa.

We're also following a number of other big stories. ISIS threatening now to kill even more hostages. You've seen the images before, but this time, the hostages are from Japan. And this time, ISIS is making another demand, millions and millions of dollars to spare their lives. That's next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Life may be cheap to ISIS, but the clock is now ticking on Japan to come up with $200 million for the return of two Japanese hostages. And they are yet again seen in those ubiquitous now orange jumpsuits with what looks like the same executioner, the kinds of pictures and video we have seen many times before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the prime minister of Japan, although you are more than 8,500 kilometers away from the Islamic state, you willingly have volunteered to take part in this crusade.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: This is the first ISIS video to flatly demand cash ransom for a hostage's life. And the amount was not chosen at random. At least that's what it seems. CNN's Atika Shubert joins me now from London with the details.

$200 million, an extraordinary sum, and it's no coincidence. Why is that?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, according to the militant that we now know as jihadi john in that video, he claims that $200 million is the amount that Japan has put forward in the coalition to fight ISIS. But this seems to be a number that ISIS really has come up with sort of out of thin air. Japan has contributed money, but a lot of it is actually to help those displaced by the fighting in Iraq and Syria. So this $200 million seems to be a sum that ISIS has really made its own.

It is the first time we've seen them actually ask for a ransom on video. However, it's not the first time they've asked for ransoms before. They have simply done that earlier, in private, in attempts to negotiate the release of other hostages. So it's not the first time we've seen something like this. But to see it put so blatantly and to a government is unusual.

BANFIELD: So, Atika, what do we know about the Japanese response to this? I mean the fact -- first of all, the fact that they committed money to help those who are displaced, not to help in the bombing campaign, seems perhaps a little lost on ISIS, but are they planning to negotiate with these terrorists? We've been told they have 72 hours.

SHUBERT: Well, Japan has responded by saying they will do everything they can to free both of the hostages, but they've declined to comment on what kind of negotiations could possibly be taking place. Now, it's not the first time that Japan has had to deal with this kind of a crisis. During the Iraq War, for example, some Japanese citizens were taken hostages by militants there. And there is the possibility that some sort of a sum was negotiated at that time for their release. So it's possible. But Japan simply won't comment on this point as to how they're trying to free their two citizens. BANFIELD: And, look, there's been some reporting that ISIS has

released hostages in the past, not this kind of hostage, but those Yazidis, who they were holding in the hundreds. And some of the speculation was that they just couldn't afford to feed or clothe them or look after them anymore. Is there some thought that this kind of an exorbitant demand is a suggestion that ISIS is hard up for money?

SHUBERT: It could certainly mean that. And I don't think that we can underestimate the impact that the ongoing campaign against ISIS has had. They are under tremendous pressure with the various air strikes. And, remember, they've made a lot of their money through oil -- illegal oil sales and the price of oil is plunging. And what it could mean is that out there on the open market, they're just not making the same amount of money they could have before and it could mean they are struggling.

On the other hand, they may simply have put this extremely high number, $200 million, because they know it's a demand that really cannot be met. So we're going to have to wait and see. Unfortunately, 72 hours is a very short time for the government of Japan to respond.

BANFIELD: It's a very short time for the two men who are sitting there between a man wielding a knife and planning to put it to their neck if they're not paid.

Atika Shubert live for us in London, thank you for that.

Over to Belgium now, in the meantime. Five of the men who were picked up in raids on Friday are now being charged with plotting to kill police officers. But the leader of that cell, purportedly the cell's main link with ISIS in Syria, is not among them. He's still on the loose. His name is Abel Hamid Aboud (ph) and he's - well, his last known whereabouts were at least traced to Greece. Aboud is believed but not confirmed to have been in phone contact with two Belgian terror suspects who were killed in a shootout with the police.

The mayor of Paris says that she is insulted and that she's planning to sue Fox News. Find out what that's all about, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BANFIELD: And our breaking news comes to us out of Paris. The mayor of that city has just told our CNN's Christiane Amanpour that she is planning to take legal action against a TV network, Fox News. And it's all because of comments that were made about so-called Muslim no-go zones in Paris.

Just for some background, last week, a terrorism analyst on the Fox News Channel suggested that there were entire cities like Birmingham in England that were no-go zones. That people who were not Muslim either could not or would not go, including police. Well, that led to a series of apologies and references to mistakes being made. Fox News apologizing, suggesting this was an error. But the reporting did continue to include entire neighborhoods in Paris. And that presumably is what has the Paris mayor so upset. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR ANNE HIDALGO, PARIS (through translator): I'm insulted. And when we've had an image, then I think we'll have to sue. I think we'll have to go to court in order to have these words removed. The image of Paris has been prejudiced and the honor of Paris has been prejudiced. And I think in the great discussion of truth, everyone is to play its role and we are going to have to be realistic and put things as they are.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Can you clarify which exact network you're going to take to court and sue?

HIDALGO: Fox News. That's the name.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Needs no translation, Fox News, that's the target of the lawsuit.

I want to bring in some of our experts on this story. CNN's senior media correspondent Brian Stelter is here with me, as well as - and he's the host of "Reliable Sources." CNN's legal analysts Paul Callan and Danny Cevallos are here as well to dig in the possibilities of such an action across the ocean.

So, first to you, Brian. The apologies that came from Fox News Channel, it was not just one, it was not just two, there were many.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: That's right, there were four of them on Saturday for various comments that were said on air that really can't be backed up by facts, Ashleigh. And in one particular segment on a morning show, there was a map of Paris with these supposed no-go zones highlighted. Seems like, the best I can tell, that's from 1996. It's a map of sensitive urban areas that need more support from the government, but they're not maps where non- Muslims can travel.

BANFIELD: But were they poor areas - this was a -- as I understood it, this was the map that was brought to light and used on television in 1996 to show -- or 2006, was it?

STELTER: 1996.

BANFIELD: 1996 to show poor areas, not religious areas.

STELTER: Areas that need more support from the government.

BANFIELD: OK.

STELTER: That's right. But it was about crime and poverty, not about Muslims, not about areas where police are afraid to travel. Here's actually a mash-up of all the apologies on Saturday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We apologize for the error.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We apologize for that error.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We deeply regret the errors and apologize to any and all who may have taken offense, including the people of France and England.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We deeply regret these errors and apologize to the people of Birmingham, our viewers and all that have been offended.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STELTER: No-go zones really have been a theme on Fox, but it's been widely challenged. By the way, no comment yet from Fox on this possible lawsuit from the mayor of Paris.

BANFIELD: All right, let's talk about the possibilities here. It just - it seems like a pretty massive undertaking to sue a network, especially after the network did what many networks think they need to do if there's a mistake made, and that is apologize. Acknowledge and apologize and mitigate the damage. Have they done the right thing? Have they done what they need to do?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they've certainly done the right thing in apologizing. And under U.S. law, I would say there's no chance of bringing a defamation case against the Fox Network. Under French law, however, if they can get jurisdiction over Fox, there's a law from 1881, believe it or not, that says if you insult the honor of a French body or person, you can sue for defamation. So under the 1881 French law, they might have a case against the Fox Network in France. But they would have to prove that Fox does business in France and they would have to somehow get jurisdiction over Fox. So I'm still doubtful.

BANFIELD: But I mean this -- does Fox News Channel - I mean this is an American based broadcast.

CALLAN: Right.

BANFIELD: Does it air in France?

STELTER: It is accessible in countries all around the world.

BANFIELD: It is?

STELTER: And there is a little bit of precedent for this. CNN was sued in the early 2000s by a small town in Brazil. That town said that a report that we aired was inaccurate involving terrorism. Well, it was sued in the municipal court there and CNN won on appeal. But this is, you know, it's not unprecedented.

BANFIELD: Is there anything that Fox News could actually do to counter the damage that the French mayor is doing? I mean just the notion that this is all being broadcast on all the competing networks is damaging enough to their brand. Could they actually turn this around and go right back at her for defamation or libel?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, that's an interesting concept. I'd think they - they would want less litigation and not more litigation, which, when it comes to defamation, is an issue from corporations down to individuals. If you want to defend a defamation lawsuit, it's pricey, it's costly. A lot of times you want those things to go away. So I think if they want to avoid litigation, the best way to avoid litigation is generally not to counterclaim against whoever's suing you.

BANFIELD: No.

CEVALLOS: But I will tell you, people may be surprised to learn that the French, in fact, do not take such a liberal view of the First Amendment as do we. Of course, they don't have a First Amendment, but they have laws criminalizing defamation whereas here in the United States, defamation is merely a civil action. And I think that would surprise people to learn that France just doesn't view free speech the way we do.

BANFIELD: So while there has been great offense taken to what was said on Fox News Channel, the governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jindal, has actually reiterated some of those claims on television, actually standing in, I believe, a neighborhood in London with our Max Foster, not only repeating the claims, but then when challenged doubling down on it. I want to play that for you so that you can hear exactly what the governor said to Max and how Max decided to challenge him on that. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. BOBBY JINDAL (R), LOUISIANA: There are people here in London that will tell you, there are neighborhoods where the women don't feel safe walking through those neighborhoods without veils. There are neighborhoods where the police are less likely to go. That's a dangerous thing.

MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You need to give me - just make an assentation (ph) like that, you need to give me the area so we can look at it, because I haven't heard of one.

JINDAL: Oh, well, look, I think your viewers know absolutely there are places where the police are less likely to go. They absolutely know there are neighborhoods where they wouldn't feel comfortable, they wouldn't feel comfortable with their wives, their daughters, their sisters --

FOSTER: Well, that's high crime rates that they feel uncomfortable. It's not because there are too many Muslims there.

JINDAL: We're not saying - look, this isn't a question. I know the left wants to make this into an attack on religion or onto - and that's not what this is. What we're saying is it absolutely is an issue for the U.K., it absolutely is an issue for America and other European and western nations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Four absolutelys and one accusation that it's leftist questioning. But, Paul, that is a strong assertion that's being made. Could he actually face the same kind of litigation claim that's being made against Fox News?

CALLAN: No, he - no, he can't because the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution will protect him. We're very firm on this. This is a form of political expression. Fox is a commercial entity operating in Europe. The rules may be a little bit different. As a lawyer, I think they should --

BANFIELD: Your First Amendment does not protect you from defaming people or place, though.

CALLAN: Well, it doesn't. Well, in the United States, we're not too friendly with the idea of defaming places. We pretty -- the First Amendment pretty much allows it. And political speech is - it's wide open in terms of the kind of criticism you can give. I'd suggest Fox should engage in negotiations perhaps if they agree to call french fries french fries in the future, maybe the mayor of Paris will back down because, frankly, this is -

STELTER: Yes, and she hasn't actually filed. Right. Right.

CALLAN: You know, this would be ridiculous.

CEVALLOS: You have the makings -

CALLAN: Yes, if they file this lawsuit, it would be nonsense and it would subject the French to embarrassment. And it's going to be a big story -

CEVALLOS: You know, when you talk about - how do you defame a neighborhood is really -

CALLAN: Right. Exactly.

CEVALLOS: I mean you can defame - there's a massive difference between saying Ashleigh Banfield is a criminal or saying - actually, did I just get myself -

BANFIELD: Watch it.

CEVALLOS: Oh, no.

BANFIELD: That was on the TV.

CEVALLOS: Well, between saying that and saying, hey, this place is a lousy neighborhood.

BANFIELD: Sure.

CEVALLOS: You know, there's a massive difference because defamation is based on the economic -- and that's key, the economic harm -

BANFIELD: Right.

CEVALLOS: Caused by your words -

BANFIELD: That (INAUDIBLE).

CEVALLOS: Which is why bringing defamation lawsuits is often very pricey because you have to prove that that person cost you money damages in most instances. There are exceptions. But that's generally it.

CALLAN: And we're talking political commentary here as well. I mean --

STELTER: Yes, but, you know, we talk about politicians play into their base in the United States.

BANFIELD: Yes.

STELTER: She's playing to her base.

CALLAN: Yes.

STELTER: Fox has been mercilessly mocked in the French media for days now.

BANFIELD: And Jindal may be playing into his base as well.

STELTER: Right. And I think she is maybe showing that she's aware of it.

BANFIELD: The problem is, when you play to your base and you make people afraid to go into certain neighborhoods, then you get something that's a little bit different (INAUDIBLE).

STELTER: Am I the only one that's more curious now to go to visit Paris and visit these supposed no-go zones?

BANFIELD: Yes.

CEVALLOS: Definitely.

STELTER: I mean there's been these stories about wonderful restaurants and -

BANFIELD: I hear there's great tabuli (ph), great hummus and cous cous (ph).

I appreciate all of your insight into this. Thank you. It will be interesting to see what happens, and certainly with any kind of litigation that might be launched from the French.

Brian Stelter, Danny Cevallos, Paul Callan, thank you for that.

We're following some explosive developments in one of the most volatile countries on earth. After the break, a live update from Yemen. The site of a Shiite militant onslaught against the presidential palace. And the word is the president has lost all control.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)