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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Palestinian attacks Israelis on Crowded Bus; France Launches Measure Against Future Attacks; NFL Finds Patriot's Footballs Under- inflated

Aired January 21, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

We begin this hour with terror in Tel Aviv. A young Palestinian with a knife attacks Israelis on a crowded bus at rush hour. I'm going to show you some video from outside of the bus before the attacker is actually shot in the leg by police and his rampage is stopped. And what you're going to see is a woman who's being stabbed in the back as she is running away for her life. If you don't want to see that, give you the opportunity right now to look away for just a moment. And certainly if there are children in the room, you might want to clear them as well.

But at least nine people, including the driver of the bus have been hurt, four of them (INAUDIBLE) as 23-year-old West Bank resident - a West Bank resident who claims he was protecting, among other things, the war in Gaza - or protesting, rather, the war in Gaza last summer. Hamas, although not claiming responsibility, is saluting the attack. The Israeli prime minister calls it, quote, "the direct result of the poisonous incitement being disseminated by the Palestinian Authority."

Joining me now from Jerusalem is CNN global affairs correspondent Elise Labott and CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant director Tom Fuentes is in Washington.

So, Elise, what can you tell us about not only the attack, how the people who were attacked are doing and also the status of this attacker.

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ashleigh, one of the wounded was seriously wounded. The others have a range of injuries from light to moderate.

What happened was really dramatic. As you said, the driver was the first person stabbed. And then what he did was slam on the brakes. He veered the bus to the right. Everybody started coming out, the doors were opened. They started flooding out. That Palestinian attacker started stabbing other people as they were leaving the bus. And then this dramatic video is him running from the scene, stabbing this young woman and then running away again. Two guards from the Israeli Prison Authority saw what was going on, saw the chaos, started following him in pursuit. They shot him, cuffed him. He was arrested and now he is in the hospital in custody, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: In custody in the hospital. Has the interrogation of him begun while he's in his hospital bed with a bullet wound in his leg?

LABOTT: He was interrogated. I think the Israelis were trying to see if he was working with anyone. It doesn't seem that he was part of any plot or anything. It does seem like it was one of those so-called lone wolf attacks, which we've really seen a lot of. This is the new tactic in Israel. You've seen over the last several months you'll remember a lot of Israelis mowed down by Palestinians in single attacks. Then you had that horrible synagogue stabbing in November where several rabbis, including some American rabbis, were attacked. So that's what we've seen. And through his interrogation, it doesn't seem as if he was part of any larger group.

Buts as you noted, Hamas did praise this attack, said that Israel basically got what it deserved for its actions against the Palestinians. And for his part, Prime Minister Netanyahu is saying it's this kind of incitement that leads to Palestinians taking attacks against Israel.

BANFIELD: So, Tom Fuentes, if you can jump in on this, off of what Elise is reporting. This is the biggest concern, it seems, for those in the intelligence community. If you're dealing with someone who just simply has a knife, didn't need funding, didn't need planning, can just go on a rampage and take out as many people as he can, is there anything that they can get out of this person? Is there any kind of intelligence or is there anything they can do that will perhaps instill fear in others not to do this? And you know what I'm talking about. Oftentimes homes are razed and families are arrested, et cetera.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right, Ashleigh, but I think in this case there's not a lot. And if he's not part of an organization, if he can't give them information that he was part of a cell that has been planning this all over, there's not much they can do and there's not much in the future they'll do to be able to prevent it. You know, everybody has kitchenware at home and, therefore, everybody has a weapon. And for one individual or a couple individuals to take their kitchen utensils out on the street and start stabbing people, there's not much they can do.

And I should add, this is nothing new for Israel and it's nothing new for the Hamas playbook, whether they organized it or not. You know, back in the day, when al Qaeda was trying to bring down the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, their strategy was always, well, let's just attack ordinary people doing ordinary things, riding on a bus, standing on a street corner waiting for a bus, going to a restaurant, going to a movie, whatever it might be that ordinary people do and attack and kill those people. Even if you only kill one to 10 people, it terrorizes the public more because of things they're doing. When you attack uniformed military, uniformed police, hardened targets like police headquarters, the average person in the country says, well, that's not going to be me, I don't hang around the police, I'm not in uniform, I'm not in the military, it won't bother me. But when you attack people doing ordinary things, that's more terrifying to the average member of the public.

BANFIELD: All right, Elise, if you could jump in on the announcement that almost simultaneously has come about from Capitol Hill that the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is on the agenda now to address a joint meeting of Congress on February 11th. Can you talk about the impetus for this decision and what's on the agenda for the discussion?

LABOTT: Well, that's right. That news was broken by CNN's Dana Bash just a short time ago. Sources telling her that House Speaker John Boehner basically took the unilateral decision to invite Prime Minister Netanyahu to peak about Iran. Now, this comes just less than 24 hours after President Obama really laid down the gauntlet on Iran, warning Congress not to impose additional sanctions against Iran while those nuclear negotiations are still going on. The administration has said all along that it really feels like that would tie his hands and he's threatening to veto any legislation that's working its way through the Congress right now. So for House Speaker Boehner, really a poke in the eye in the Obama administration because these type of visits are usually closely coordinated with the White House when it involves a strong ally such as Israel -- the leader of Israel.

BANFIELD: All right, Elise Labott in Jerusalem and Tom Fuentes here in the United States, thank you to both of you. I'm going to ask you to stand by for a moment because we've got new surveillance video showing Paris terror suspects scouting out places to hit long ahead of the attacks. This as France is announcing some brand-new measures to track potential terror suspects and, believe me, when you hear how much they'll cost, you can imagine what the French people are thinking now.

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BANFIELD: Two weeks after the "Charlie Hebdo" slaughter in Paris and the many painful questions that followed, the government of France is now launching what it's quoting as exceptional measures to guard against future attacks from jihadis already in that country. The French prime minister today announcing almost $500 million in emergency spending, in part to keep tabs on an estimated 3,000 potential terrorists they believe may be living among them. We'll have more on that in just a moment.

But first, some video that you won't see elsewhere. Some surveillance images from a Jewish institution in Paris purportedly of Amedy Coulibaly and this - that's the terrorist behind the kosher market siege, and his wife/partner, who's now believed to have fled to Syria. A source close to the investigation says the couple was out scouting targets, at least as far back as last summer. Interesting the choice of clothing on the woman who professors to be an Islamist. Authorities are holding and charging four of Coulibaly's alleged cohorts, but not in direction connection with the market attack in which four hostages were murdered.

I want to bring back Tom Fuentes and get some insights from CNN military analyst and retired U.S. Army General Spider Marks and also our CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant director Tom Fuentes. As we mentioned, he's in Washington. But joining me from Toronto is former counterterrorism operate and former jihadi Mubin Shaikh.

So, if I can just start with you, Tom, for a moment, and that is this incredible amount of resources that the French are now throwing at what can only be presumed as a massive intelligence endeavor. You know, 2,680 new jobs, I think almost half of them just towards intelligence services. That remarkable amount of money and the number, 3,000 people they think they now need to follow. Is this too little too late or is it exactly what they need to be doing and maybe too late?

FUENTES: Well, it may be too late, Ashleigh, for what's already occurred and what's been in progress over recent months. But over the long haul, and this will be a long haul, it won't be too late.

But I can tell you that the resources required - I ran surveillance operations for the FBI in Chicago for two years when we were following organized crime, gangsters, murderers and some terrorists and the resources required are just enormous. And it takes about 30 people, half a dozen pilots rotating when aerial support is allowed due to weather, to follow one person. So if they're talking, they have 3,000 people they need to cover and you have the massive amount of resources it takes, people, vehicles, equipment, photography equipment, radio equipment, and extensive training, which will require months if not years to select and train the individuals to do it, this is no small chore on their part.

BANFIELD: And, obviously, since we heard that the brothers, the Kouachi brothers, were dropped off of surveillance more than likely just because of sheer resources, perhaps this is exactly what the French need.

FUENTES: Well -

BANFIELD: Spider, jump in on some of those pictures we were just showing, if I could for a moment, Tom, sorry about this, but we were just showing some pictures of what it looks like, the scenes around Paris. I mean you've got what look like military-style policemen who are standing guard under the Eiffel Tower. These are the kinds of images that we often see post a terror attack, certainly see it all the time in New York City. Is that an effective way, though, to fight terror? I mean are terrorists actually deterred when they see officers in well-traveled locations?

JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Ashleigh, what you're seeing is immediate reaction, a scaling of operations, if you will, into those high opportunities for terrorists - for opportunities and targets where terrorists would go after. So clearly what you have is an immediate response. Clearly those areas now become denied because of the high visible, overt surveillance that's in place.

But what's really happening and what you hope, as Tom described, is the essence of the work, which is the scud work that has to take place behind the scenes in terms of directed intelligence collection, very robust, intelligence fusion, bringing in all those collector capabilities and the analysis that takes place that gives you targetable intelligence that then you can list and prioritize in terms of what looks like the highest targets, the most vulnerable targets that are linked to threat interests. So this is a lot of work that has to take place. So the immediate response is folks on the street, yes, that denies certain areas and hopefully can give you a little bit of time to gear back up and achieve what it is you're trying to achieve for the long haul. This is a long-term engagement.

BANFIELD: I want to - I want to switch gears slightly but, look, we're talking about surveillance and there's some video that surfaced that CNN is now showing of Amedy Coulibaly and his wife or partner or whatever she is, Hayat Boumeddiene. And this is them apparently scoping last summer some potential targets.

Mubin, look, I've been watching this video over and over again and what stands out to me is not that they're scoping, it's what they're wearing. Because if these are true Islamists who are hell-bent on avenging the Prophet Muhammad or insisting on a puritan style of life, what on earth would that woman be doing dressed like that on the sidewalk?

MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATIVE: Well, it's to cover their identity, right? It's to not be so obvious as to what they're up to. It's easy to recognize, of course, the face veil that she's pictured in during her quote/unquote "crossbow" training that's prohibited. In France and in Paris there would probably be some kind of police action taken against them or at least somebody would see that.

BANFIELD: You know, Mubin, Mubin, I'm having trouble with the notion of trying to fit in, because I'm going to be completely honest with you, a t-shirt and a pair of capri pants, she would have fit in and blended in beautifully. Instead, she's standing out. People dressed like that stand out. And I'm just curious as to how on earth someone can go within a matter of months from dressing like that, even if she's thinking this is some kind of undercover operation, to possibly being involved in a murderous plot, again, for ultra-religious purposes? It doesn't make sense to so many people.

SHAIKH: Well, if you imagine like, from what we've heard about -- from Hayat Boumeddiene about her involvement with Amedy Coulibaly, remember, Amedy Coulibaly was in prison trying to break out a convicted terrorist who bombed the Paris subway. And so one of the things she described was showing images of atrocities in the Muslim world, you know, whether it was Palestine, Chechnya, Iraq, there were different places, theaters that she referred to. And when you link next to grievances or next to foreign policy grievances radical ideology to say, to make sense of it, to say, look, this is happening because the (INAUDIBLE), the infidels are doing this to you, it's very easy for you to tie the two together. That while this is a result of, you know, the west doing this and so therefore the west are the terrorists and I have to attack them. And this is the narrative that she engaged in.

BANFIELD: Yes. It's just -- more and more as I see a lot of the M.O.s of these so-called strict Islamisists (ph), I see that they're just filthy criminals and not a whole lot more than that.

SHAIKH: Yes.

BANFIELD: They may have just latched on to something that's convenience to go about what they're doing. But it's just shocking to see the incredible hypocrisy in those images.

Spider Mark, Tom Fuentes, Mubin Shaikh, thank you, all three of you, for your insight on this story.

We've got some other news that's breaking now as well.

NFL not responding. Tom Brady simply laughing this one off. But it's a serious offense if, in fact, there is an offense. The Patriots being accused of using deflated footballs. So what could this mean for the league ahead of the Super Bowl? What could it mean for the coach? That's coming up.

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BANFIELD: So that investigation of the Super Bowl-bound New England Patriots for allegedly deflating footballs in their win over Indianapolis on Sunday, it's getting some noise and it's getting some traction. Here's the play that started everything off, right? There's Colts linebacker D'Qwell Jackson with his team's only interception of the game. The only interception of the game. Yes, you're catching the other team's ball and you're giving it a little squish. Jackson reportedly told his coaching staff that that ball that he caught felt sort of soft.

Now, by rule, the NFL footballs have to be inflated between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds per square inch and they have to weigh 14 to 15 ounces. But according to ESPN, the NFL found that 11 of 12 of the Patriots' footballs were underinflated. And that's a big no-no.

Joining me now is NFL Hall of Famer and quarterback Fran Tarkenton and CNN Sports Andy Scholes.

So, Andy, first to you. Where is this - is there an investigation? Where does this whole story stand from an investigative point and also from the point of whether the Super Bowl is going to be affected by this?

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS: Well, Ashleigh, the Super Bowl is definitely not going to be affected. It's going to be Patriots versus Seahawks in a couple weeks. But in terms of the investigation, the NFL says it's still ongoing. They're not going to comment on it just yet. Troy Vincent is heading it up. And I guess right now that they've already found, according to ESPN, that 11 of the 12 balls were actually not inflated correctly. They were actually deflated that the Patriots were using. If that's the case, you know, where do we go from here? Well, the minimum fine is $25,000. I'm sure, considering what happened with spygate back in 2007 with Bill Belichick taping opposing coach's signals on the sideline, he got fined $500,000 for that. He's looking at a much harsher penalty this time around. They lost a first round pick that time. Likely going to happen again this time. We'll have to wait and see. The NFL says they should have findings in the next two or three days. BANFIELD: And he had to apologize to the owners and apparently at that

same meeting they adopted something called the Integrity of the Game and Fair Competition and they all had to agree that they would abide by league rules and policies and report any violations that they know. This is some pretty serious stuff if you're talking about the integrity of the league.

I want everyone, if you could, to listen to this interview with the Patriots' quarterback Tom Brady from two days ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you get the sense that you were able to grip the ball better than the Colts last night? Would you care to - would you care to weigh in on that?

TOM BRADY, QUARTERBACK, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: I think I've heard it all at this point. So, oh, God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: May not be a laughing matter. This is what he said three years ago when Rob Gronkowski (ph) scores, he spikes the ball and he deflates the ball and I love that because I like the deflated ball.

Fran Tarkenton, there could be no better expert on this than you perhaps right now. First of all, I want you to weigh in on what you're seeing play out in this story, if you would.

FRAN TARKENTON, NFL HALL OF FAMER (via telephone): Well, I'm going to talk about this story, but this is a small story in the whole realm of things. Deflating a football, you can grip it better. If the ball is -- the harder it is, the more slick it is. If you deflate it in cold weather, you'll have a better grip. If you deflate it in rainy weather, which it was raining, you have a better grip. It gives you an advantage. There's no question about it. But it's not that big an advantage.

BANFIELD: So -

TARKENTON: Here's a bigger thing.

BANFIELD: OK, go ahead.

TARKENTON: Ever heard the name Lance Armstrong?

BANFIELD: Once or twice.

TARKENTON: And he won seven Tour de Frances, broke all those records and he was finally on P.E.D.s, right?

BANFIELD: Uh-huh, admittedly.

TARKENTON: And we heard about all the baseball players that hit home runs, the Barry Bonds, the Mark McGwires on P.E.D.s.

BANFIELD: Sure.

TARKENTON: Now, you want to hear a real story that everybody covers up for the last 20 years? Do you know what -- the team that the players take the most performance-enhancing drugs will win the game. These teams that are in the playoffs, and all the teams, they're taking performance-enhancing drugs, which makes their players -- it's illegal, bigger, faster, stronger, and that's what wins football games. Deflating a football is a - is nothing. But nobody wants to talk about the epidemic of performance-enhancing drugs throughout the national football league that really changes the way the game is played.

BANFIELD: Are you suggesting that the Patriots and perhaps other teams as well, if that's what you're suggesting --

TARKENTON: Every team.

BANFIELD: Are winning - won the game and much of it has to do with performance-enhancing drugs? Are you making that accusation on live television?

TARKENTON: Yes. No, I've been saying that for five years. Nobody wants to cover it. They are - it's epidemic If performance-enhancing drugs helped Barry Bonds hit 70-plus home runs and McGwire 60s and all of the other stuff - and it's been epidemic in baseball and track and field, it's been epidemic in football for just as long.

BANFIELD: Well, let me suggest this.

TARKENTON: We're talking about players in the Hall of Fame.

BANFIELD: CNN -

TARKENTON: I talk to people. I talk to trainers. I talk to doctors. I see players. It's epidemic. And that changes the game. And so why doesn't anybody talk about something that really does make a difference?

BANFIELD: Well, for starters, if you talk about something, you've got to back it up with evidence, Fran.

TARKENTON: I mean you can be -

BANFIELD: I have to jump in here. I have to jump in here because CNN has no evidence of any particular players or teams that are taking performance-enhancing drugs. And this particular story, we are looking at the potential for evidence, an investigation that's underway, and this is why we're drilling down on this particular one.

Andy, rules are rules. And rules are clearly - I mean, look at this, section one, I think it's rule number two is all about ball dimensions. Section two is all about ball supply. This stuff is really regulated. But there's always that ref on the field. Help me think this through. Don't the refs handle the ball on a regular basis, Andy? And why would it take an interception, if this accusation is accurate, to actually point this out? SCHOLES: Well, and that's a great point, Ashleigh. I actually -- I

thought about that yesterday. I said the exact same thing because - so the ball has to be between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds per square inch. Now, you know, what does that mean exactly? It's hard to tell unless you're actually holding these footballs. And I actually have two of them right here. One of these is 12.5, which is a regulation size. This one is 10.5. Now I was like, why can't the referees who handle these footballs, you know, every other play, why can't they tell which ball is lighter? You really can't by just holding them and placing them down on the ground. You really have to mash on them or catch a football going 50 miles an hour probably to see a difference. So that -

BANFIELD: OK.

SCHOLES: That was something I thought, too. And I could definitely see now why the refs couldn't tell. But D'Qwell Jackson, who caught a football going 50 miles an hour, and with his strong hands grabbed it, I'm sure he pushed his thumbs in just a little bit, he was probably just like, this doesn't feel right, and that's why he ended up telling the coaching staff.

BANFIELD: Well, look, it's the tools of their trade. And who am I -- I throw like a girl - to weighing in on whether that's something easy to (INAUDIBLE).

SCHOLES: So do I.

BANFIELD: Andy Scholes, thank you for that. I highly doubt that, Mr. Scholes. Thank you, Fran Tarkenton. Thank you as well for joining the program.

And we're continuing to follow that story as well because I think we're just at the beginning. The Super Bowl is coming up upon us.

President Obama has campaigned on a message of change and some of that change is now making its way south, way down south, all the way to Cuba. But the communist country is cautioning that change may not mend the ties with the United States, at least not right away because there's one big sticking point. A colorful story coming up next.

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