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Yemen Resignations; New England Patriots Controversy; Federal Charges Unlikely in Brown Case

Aired January 22, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news here at the top of the hour on CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me.

We have to begin with what's breaking out of Yemen today, where the government has just fallen. The government has fallen. Just a reminder here of what has taken place over the course of the last couple of days.

Now the key U.S. ally here, that is Yemen in this fight against terrorism, has been embroiled in this violent, political standoff with a group of rebels known as the Houthis. Now we're hearing the top Yemen government has just resigned. Let me be precise. When we say top government, that includes the president, that includes the prime minister, and the entire cabinet.

Joining me now, Michael Scheuer, author of "Imperial Hubris" and the man who actually led the CIA's hunt for Osama bin Laden.

Michael Scheuer, welcome.

MICHAEL SCHEUER, AUTHOR, "IMPERIAL HUBRIS": Thank you. Thank you.

BALDWIN: Let's begin first just with the news. The implications of the news. The consequence of the news that the president, the prime minister and the Yemeni cabinet, gone. What does this mean?

SCHEUER: I suppose it means that the Houthis will try to take over the government and run the country, although they're a minority in that country. They're Shia. And certainly there will be a war between them and the Sunni groups, al Qaeda, whatever presence of ISIS is there, and other tribals.

BALDWIN: So if we're talking about the Houthis, who is the minority, we're also getting word -- keeping the rebels in mind, we're also hearing about, Michael, this deadly turf battle that could totally change the U.S. led war on ISIS because, for the first time we're hearing about this gun battle that is apparently taking place between ISIS fighters and the al Qaeda branch in Yemen, you know it well, AQAP. And this is coming to CNN from this Yemeni official who tells CNN that ISIS now has significant presence in at least three of the provinces in southern and central Yemen.

I've been talking to analysts who call it a competition. I don't know what word you would use. But what word would you use, Michael? And would you see this as a turf war of sorts?

SCHEUER: Well, I think there is a competition between the two groups. They clearly have different agendas and they have a different view of the use of violence in -- especially like beheadings and that kind of thing. But they're basically going in the same direction. They're attacking the governments in the Middle East. They're eventually aiming toward Israel. And they will attack us when the opportunity arises.

I think it kind of gives you a false sense of confidence if you think they're fighting each other more than us. I don't think that's the truth.

BALDWIN: That's interesting. I want to come back to actually that point in just a moment because I'm hearing two different - two different ways you could look at this.

But, David Rohde (ph), let me bring you in. We talked about this yesterday and now we have this development of the prime minister, of the president, and the entire Yemeni cabinet gone. Your reaction to that first and then we'll talk about ISIS and this competition with AQAP.

DAVID ROHDE (ph): I - my sense is that this is bad news. It's -- on many different levels. First, it's a big victory in a sense for Iran, which has been pushing for influence in Yemen. Iran now is, you know, extremely influential in Syria, has always been influential in Iraq. And now it's influential in Yemen. And this could lead to a reduction to what the U.S. can do in Yemen in terms of counter terrorism administrations.

BALDWIN: We, I should say the U.S., obviously relies on Yemen as a key ally in the Middle East. The U.S. gives Yemen a lot of money to fight terrorism. And there's been a lot of talk - we've covered this for years -- about this potential power vacuum in Yemen and if and when this day happened who would take control. You know Michael was talking about the Houthis, who are the minority. Who would it be? I guess the question really would be two-fold, David, to you. I guess, on paper, who would be in control and in reality who would be in control?

ROHDE: Well, I think it's going to be chaotic. It's going to be potentially a Syria like situation where the country divides into different sections controlled, some by the Houthis, some by, you know, one al Qaeda group and, you know, one by ISIS. The pattern we've seen since the air strike began is that when this kind of chaos occurs, it helps the jihadists. They thrive in these vacuums. They thrive in the chaos.

And I agree with Michael that this fighting between AQAP and the Islamic state, you know, is - you know, we shouldn't see it as a -- the bigger issue is that they are going to be targeting us together. They're not going to cancel each other out.

There's fighting between these different jihadist factions in Syria, but they're not cancelling each other out. They're getting stronger. So, again, this is all very worrying on multiple levels. BALDWIN: But so for now, Michael, if you have these two different -

again, this is according to this source in Yemen telling us at CNN that there is indeed this sort of turf battle, this competition. You agree with that word. But if you have these two different groups vying for recruits and money and support, do you see a day when the two would combine to wage so-called jihadi against the west or would it be more of a race to see who could attack the west first.

SCHEUER: Well, I would never say never. I think they'll be distinct as long as Zawahiri leads al Qaeda. But I - you know, they're going in the same direction. I think where it's -- it's a situation where when you look at these people, the movement we face is very splintered. And that might make cooperation hard between them, but it also makes it -

BALDWIN: Which - which movement -- which movement are you referring to?

SCHEUER: The Islamist movement -

BALDWIN: OK.

SCHEUER: As al Qaeda and ISIS and the rest of them, the Taliban. It makes it difficult to cooperate, but it makes it impossible for us to cut off their head because there's always another head that pops up. I think right now probably, if the Sunnis in Yemen begin to fight the Shias, that's the best possible world for us because they'll be killing each other and we won't have to do it. I think our activity in Yemen was very minimal anyway. Some drones, some special operations. Nothing that was going to destroy al Qaeda there. We had the same situation in Iraq, which was to our advantage, the Sunnis killing the Shias. We wrecked that one. We ought to let this one alone.

BALDWIN: What do you mean let this one along as far as (INAUDIBLE)?

SCHEUER: Let them fight each other.

BALDWIN: Interesting.

SCHEUER: Let the Sunnis and the Shias fight each other. Iran will help the Houthis. Saudi Arabia and the Emirates will help the Sunnis. And what could be better? All of our enemies would be killing each other.

BALDWIN: I hear you but what about then all of the money that the U.S. has been giving our ally, the president of Yemen, who apparently no longer is in control? So now what?

SCHEUER: Ma'am, since I began working for the CIA, we've been giving Yemen money and most of it has been gone and graft (ph) in corruption, in buying whisky for the former president.

BALDWIN: Huh.

SCHEUER: All the Yemenis gave us in terms of a response for what we gave them was permission to use our forces in their country. There was nothing else. The government didn't rule anything but Sanaa, the capital. BALDWIN: Interesting. And that's what I was asking David, who would be

in control on paper versus reality.

Let me follow up just because of your time with the CIA and leading the hunt for bin Laden. And when you look at the picture that was core al Qaeda then and then al Qaeda now - because when I think of, you know, what we've cover AQAP, I think of, you know, wanting to - the Detroit - the Detroit plane, the printer cartridge bombs, you know, I think of the bomb maker al Asiri and those massive plots versus what we saw at "Charlie Hebdo" and a much different tactically speaking attack. Do you see a change in evolution in attacks?

SCHEUER: Well, I think ISIS has an entirely different world view on that particular issue than does al Qaeda. Al Qaeda was always eager to deliver the big blow in the hope that they could knock us out of the region. ISIS, on the other hand, is much more willing to just causes things that greatly increase a country's expense, cause terror in the community, and really joint -- they both join with al Qaeda in trying to choke our civil liberties. Bin Laden set that as one of his goals in 2004. And if you'll notice, after "Charlie Hebdo," the response was to double down on the French population and in the United States and Britain. So they're being very successful around the world in many different ways.

BALDWIN: It's interesting and also just going back to your point about, you know, I guess our one's wish could be that these different groups end up, you know, fighting each other and killing each other. But on the flip side, Michael Scheuer, what if the opposite happens? Is there - is it -- would it be preposterous to ask that they would join forces? Is that a possibility?

SCHEUER: Well, I think - you know, of course it's a possibility. But you remember, we're the United States of America. Since 2001, we have used only a fraction of our military power. The reason you want to hope the Sunnis fight the Shias is because our political leaders in both parties will not unleash the U.S. military to destroy these people. If we were willing to do that and kill them in thee extraordinary numbers necessary, we could end this problem. We're not and so we have to depend on other things like the sectarian violence to kind of blunt the edge of their weapon against us.

BALDWIN: Michael Scheuer, thank you so much for your time. David Rohde on the phone with me. Both of whom agree about the ensuing chaos that is Yemen. I appreciate you both.

SCHEUER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Meantime, the race is on to save two hostages being held captive by ISIS. And they may have just a few hours to live because the deadly countdown started with this video. A scene absolutely no one wanted to see again. Jihadi John, ISIS' hooded killer, putting his knife to the throat of two Japanese men and putting a $200 million price on their lives. In the video, the terrorist group says Japan has until just after midnight eastern time tonight to pay that ransom. The Japanese government says it is working hard to establish contact with ISIS but thus far, no luck. Just ahead here on CNN, live during the show, we are expecting Tom

Brady to address the scandal involving his New England Patriots. Did they cheat by using deflated balls? Hear what the coach of the Pat's said today.

Plus, reaction is pouring in to word from officials that the federal government will not charge the former police officer who killed Michael Brown in Ferguson.

And, the measles outbreak at Disneyland, it is definitely rekindling that debate over vaccinations in America. Let's talk about that. You're watching CNN. Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: He didn't know a thing. That is what New England Patriot's head coach Bill Belichick said just a couple of hours ago breaking his silence in claims his team cheated. Cheated in the game last Sunday that earned its Super Bowl bid. The veteran coach, four decades in the NFL, said he is shocked, that he has no explanation for how 11 of those 12 footballs his team provided for last Sunday's AFC championship game ended up with far less air in them than league rules require.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL BELICHICK, HEAD COACH, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: I came in Monday morning, I was shocked to learn of the news reports about the footballs. I had no knowledge whatsoever of this situation until Monday morning. I would say I've learned a lot more about this process in the last three days than I knew or had talked about in the last 40 years that I've coached in this league.

In my entire coaching career, I have never talked to any player, staff member, about football air pressure. That is not a subject that I have ever brought up. To me, the footballs are approved by the league and game officials pregame and we play with what's out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So that's Belichick. Let me read you this tweet, and this is sort of emblematic of what we're hearing from a lot of people who've played in the league for a number of years. Former NFL star quarterback Matt Leinart sounding off on Twitter, essentially telling people to get over it. You see his tweet. "Every team tampers with footballs. Ask any quarterback in the league. This is ridiculous."

Patriots' quarterback Tom Brady is due to speak to reporters live during this show. Obviously, we will take that for you. But let's go now first to Gillette Stadium, the Patriots' home field, in Foxborough. We've got Ben Volin with "The Boston Globe."

And, Ben, let me get to Belichick in just a second. Let's fast forward to when we see Tom Brady, you know, in the next hour speaking about all of this, addressing all of these huge, huge questions. What does he say? BEN VOLIN, NFL REPORTER, "THE BOSTON GLOBE": It's going to be very

fascinating when he talks at 3:45. I think he's got two options. One is just to completely claim total ignorance, I have no idea what happened. Maybe something to do with the weather. But I think more realistically, after hearing what Belichick said before where, you'll have to talk to Tom, I think the Patriots have already decided, look, Tom Brady, I think, needs to step up and take responsibility. There are a lot of eyeballs looking at him, a lot of fingers pointing his way now because the quarterbacks around the league are very particular about doctoring the footballs to the way that they like it. Tom Brady's been a fanatic about it over the years. He even had an NFL rule changed at one point. So I think Tom Brady is probably going to take responsibility, maybe flash a sheepish grin and say, I'm sorry, I didn't realize this would be such a big deal, it's a common practice, and then try to nip it in the bud as soon as he can.

BALDWIN: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Ben Volin. So you think - you're thinking that if super star quarterback Tom Brady says, you know, says he is responsible, what happens next? What kind of penalty? I mean you wrote the piece in "The Globe" today about, you know, punishment. What kind of punishment? I mean do they get to play in two weeks?

VOLIN: Yes, of course Tom Brady's going to play. The result of the game from Sunday will stand. The Patriots are going to the Super Bowl. He's not going to be suspended for the game. However, there is a minimum fine of $25,000 for tampering with the football and I would think maybe a fine, at least of that much if not more, will be coming from the NFL office. Again, if this is all proven. The investigation is still undergoing.

However, many people around the league, fame broadcaster Kohn Madden said Brady has got to be the guy in all this. And it could be viewed as cheating but it's really more just gamesmanship. We've heard quarterbacks all across the league say that they like to tamper and doctor with the footballs. Aaron Rodgers says he likes to overinflates it past what's allowed by the NFL. Eli manning, Peyton Manning, everyone is very, very particular about how they like the football kind of doctor it to their specific way before the game. So Tom Brady, I think, will own up to it, will kind of -- with a sheepish apology, I'm really sorry, I didn't realize this would be such a big deal.

BALDWIN: Interesting.

VOLIN: It's a common practice. And, you know, Tom Brady is a lot more Teflon, he has a lot more good will stored up than Bill Belichick does. So I think Tom Brady will kind of take responsibility and the hope -- with the hope that everyone will be able to move on quickly.

BALDWIN: And that's the thing, with Belichick and really I think just with this team in general and your point about how hearing from Leinart and other people who have played this game for years and years, I'm wondering if this is, you know, is this really about deflated footballs or is this about this like, you know, visceral hatred and jealousy of this team that has just been on top for so, so long? And, yes, you had spy-gate from a couple of years ago. But is it more about the latter than about some deflated balls, do you think?

VOLIN: Well, I will say that there are a lot of Patriot haters out there. A lot of fans that are tired of their success and don't like the way that the Patriots always conduct business. Bill Belichick can be very gruff sometimes. And certainly the spy-gate scandal from 2007 has removed all benefit of the doubt from the Patriots. So, for many fans - many teams, many fans, the Patriots will forever be stained. And so I think some of that is playing into it. But at the same time, this very well might be a deliberate attempt by the Patriots to skirt the rules and so, you know, they probably need to be punished.

BALDWIN: We will be watching for Tom Brady next hour speaking live during the show. We will take it. Ben Volin in Foxborough. Ben, thank you so much for coming back on. I appreciate it.

VOLIN: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, sources have told CNN that a federal investigation has not found enough evidence to charge former police officer Darren Wilson with civil rights violations in the shooting death of teenager Michael Brown. We will talk to Don West, George Zimmerman's outspoken defense attorney. He will join me live to discuss after a quick commercial break. Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Former Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson will probably not face federal civil rights charges in the shooting death of teenager Michael Brown. Several sources tell CNN the FBI has finished its investigation into the killing from last August and concluded there is not enough evidence to charge Wilson. This is based upon more than 200 interviews and a review of other evidence and all of this comes fewer than two months after this grand jury in Missouri declined to bring criminal charges against Wilson, that officer who killed Brown, setting off this wave of nationwide protest against excessive use of police force. Despite all of this actually, this is important here, the final decision as to whether or not they want to pursue federal legal action is actually - against Wilson is up to Attorney General Eric Holder.

Let me bring in criminal defense attorney Don West, who helped defend George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin case, he is live in Orlando, and former federal prosecutor Joey Jackson is with me as well.

Gentlemen, welcome.

DON WEST, DEFENDED GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Thanks. Hi, Brooke.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Hello, Brooke. Good afternoon.

BALDWIN: Good afternoon.

Don, to you first. The bar, as far as how I understand this, the bar for bringing civil rights charges is very, very high. Can you explain how high and why that is? WEST: Well, it's certainly a very serious charge, first of all. A

federal, criminal civil rights violation, if a death is involved, can be punishable by life or even the death penalty. So the bar should be very high. And it's especially high on the issue of intent. The prosecutor's going to have to establish, beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the burden of proof -- the standard of proof, rather, in a criminal case, that the depravation of civil rights, in this instance the loss of Michael Brown's life, was intentional, willful, purposeful under color of law by Darren Wilson, a police officer.

BALDWIN: But, Joey Jackson, as I mentioned, I mean Eric Holder, he could step in. If he makes a move, that could change things. Why is that?

JACKSON: Well, here's the problem, Brooke. I think Eric Holder certainly has been well intentioned here. Of course we know he went to Ferguson. He's been committed to it. He sent a number of FBI agents to investigate. But Eric Holder, at the end of the day, doesn't make the law and doesn't make the facts. And so I think he'll be bound by what the investigation says.

And just to be clear, at the federal level, what ends up happening is, regardless of what Eric Holder wants to do personally, you're bound by the law. Unlike a state prosecution where you can charge recklessness on the part -- in the event that that's what the grand jury determined, you could charge that it was a reckless act, that is that the officer, Darren Wilson, consciously disregarded the risk. You could say that he was careless. You could come up with any number of theories for prosecution at the state level in the event that that's what the facts demonstrated.

In a federal prosecution, as Don West was just referring to, it's all about intent. Unless you can establish that there was an intentional, purposeful, willful violation of a civil right, that is the right to be free from excessive force, you do not have a conviction. And you have to show that, Brooke, beyond a reasonable doubt. A very high bar. So in light of that, notwithstanding what the attorney general may personally want to do, I think he'll be bound by any recommendation that his assistants make to him.

BALDWIN: OK. OK. And I'm just walking through all these possibilities of suits. Then, of course, I imagine, Don West, you could have Michael Brown's family bringing forward a civil suit against Officer Wilson, correct?

WEST: Well, it would be completely separate and distinct from any criminal prosecution, sure. That 1983 action would be filed against the police department, sure. But that's completely separate. Different standard of proof, different legal issues.

BALDWIN: What about, Don, just staying with you, given - you know, listen, we all watched you. We all watched that Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman trial and sort of where George Zimmerman has ended up since. And I'm wondering about Officer Wilson. We know he resigned from the force in Ferguson. When he did that interview with ABC News, he said he'd probably have to seek a totally different career. If you were advising him, what would you suggest?

WEST: Well, I think so. I think that's probably good advice that he's already gotten and that he seems to be following. Keeping a low profile I think has been to his advantage clearly. You know, there's a bit of deja vu here for me in the context of where things stand in -- during Wilson's investigation because --

BALDWIN: Tell me why.

WEST: It's not -- there's no formal announcement. There's been apparently information disclosed by some officials without any confirmation. I say deja vu because something similar has happened to me in the context of George Zimmerman's federal civil rights investigation.