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ISIS Deadline; Attack in Israel

Aired January 28, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. I'm Brianna Keilar.

We have brand new developments in. As the deadline passes on the lives of two ISIS hostages, Jordan just made it clear it's prepared to make a deal with the most brutal terrorists in the world, ISIS.

And this is the woman at the center of it all, Sajida al-Rishawi, seen here with a bomb strapped to her chest, a bomb that failed to go off during a deadly terror attack in Jordan in 2005. She's been on death row in a Jordanian prison. And now ISIS wants her.

Jordan may be willing to swap her for this man. He's a Jordanian pilot who was captured by ISIS a few weeks ago, after his jet crashed in Syria. Why is ISIS so hell-bent on getting this woman? Who is she?

We will be taking a look at this. We have traced her back to the head of ISIS. Her brother was a comrade to the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq. That leader, al Zarqawi, a man you probably heard of, and al Zarqawi was a mentor to the man who now runs ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

Joining me now, we have CNN's Jomana Karadsheh in Amman, Jordan.

Jomana, tell us the latest here and tell us if Jordan has gotten a response to this offer and also about how people there in Jordan really, really want this pilot released.

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Brianna.

We were hearing from a Jordanian government source and he's saying there's been no deal made yet as far as they're aware. They believe that neither the Jordanian pilot nor the Japanese hostage, Kenji Goto, have been released. Now, as you mentioned, as the Jordanian government made that offer nine hours ago saying they're willing to release Sajida al-Rishawi.

We have not heard publicly yet from ISIS, no response to this offer from the Jordanian government, although we have to point out that this is an offer vs. a demand from ISIS, which is totally different. At no point has ISIS publicly made any demand for the release of the Jordanian pilot.

What they did was yesterday giving the Jordanian government 24 hours to release Sajida al-Rishawi in a swap deal so they can release Kenji Goto. But they said if that does not happen, they are going to kill both Kenji Goto and Muath al-Kaseasbeh, the Jordanian pilot. In the last hour or so, the Jordanian foreign minister was speaking to

CNN to Christiane Amanpour and he did say that the negotiations have been taking place indirectly through indirect channels for a few weeks. He said that Kenji Goto is part of the negotiations. But for Jordan, their priority is the pilot, Brianna.

And he says they have not received proof of life yet, something the Jordanians had asked for. A very tense night here with the family of Muath al-Kaseasbeh, the Jordanian pilot, and many Jordanians anxiously waiting to see what is going to happen, what the fate of this pilot will be, a tense night for Jordan and Japan today.

KEILAR: Yes, especially as we pass that deadline. All right, Jomana Karadsheh, thank you so much.

What is the price for negotiating with the world's most brutal terrorists? I want to talk about the risks and also the logistics of this potential swap. What would it look like?

Let's talk with Robert McFadden. He's a former special agent in charge at NCIS and now senior vice president of the Soufan Group.

Robert, first off, it's sort of convoluted because you have ISIS indicating they might do a swap for the Japanese hostage to get Sajida al-Rishawi. And yet the Jordanians want to exchange for the pilot and their priority isn't the Japanese hostage. Where does that leave us?

ROBERT MCFADDEN, THE SOUFAN GROUP: Exactly.

Well, two things here. It speaks to complexity of all that's involved. But it also speaks to the Islamic State and its ultimate goal is the propaganda and showing it has the levers of power and is wanting to manipulate the coalition, as well as Jordanian public sentiment.

It's hard to conceive of the scenario where Lieutenant Muath would not be part of an exchange even if that happens. The Jordanians have been clear about that. And as was mentioned before, my understanding --

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: Because they're steering the ship on the negotiations, even though they're indirect, right?

MCFADDEN: Well, that's right, since they have the pilot. There's a Japanese coalition member involved as well. But it really speaks to again how its goal is to manipulate public sentiment both in the Arab world and as far as the rest of the coalition.

But an important piece, though, speaking to Jordanian friends today, no proof of life has been seen for Lieutenant Muath for a number of weeks now.

KEILAR: OK. That is what the Jordanians want. If they don't have that, you would expect that they're not going to give ISIS what it wants. MCFADDEN: Well, certainly in the continuing of negotiations, to the

extent there are negotiations, first things first. And that's a big part of it.

KEILAR: Yes. But I guess my question is whether or not this even comes to fruition, the fact ISIS is negotiating with Jordan and with Japan -- in a way, Japan, because they certainly do want the Japanese hostage back, has ISIS in a way already won now that it's negotiating with two U.S. allies?

MCFADDEN: Well, in some ways, as far as propaganda wars, absolutely.

In fact, there's less than a solid degree of belief that ISIS, Islamic State, negotiates in good faith regardless. Its purpose again is to push the levers of power.

KEILAR: Yes. And that's why they frequently put a ransom at $200 million, which is completely unrealistic, is not something that certainly a family would be able to afford to get their loved ones released. It's just to make people sort of squirm as being terrorized.

MCFADDEN: Exactly. Precisely.

Are there are other outrageous demands it makes behind the scenes, release of other prisoners. In fact, without sounding too cynical, there's little doubt that leadership of Islamic State really cares that much about Sajida al-Rishawi.

KEILAR: They're just making a point.

MCFADDEN: But having that for symbolism that it acts in good faith for those that belongs to its organization -- but keep in mind, there are a lot of other very important people in custody that you would think intuitively Islamic State would negotiate for that it's not brought up. But the symbolism, the potency of this is very big.

KEILAR: Yes. It's a sick game, but ongoing, very important and so key to see how this all turns out. Robert McFadden, thank you so much.

MCFADDEN: My pleasure.

KEILAR: This swap, if it happened, it could completely change the U.S.-led war on ISIS, a war that is already under fire by some in the national security community.

In fact, former U.S. spy General Michael Flynn had a lot to say about President Obama's strategy. He called the limited response a recipe for disaster. He said -- quote -- "There are many sincere people in our government who frankly are paralyzed by this complexity, so they accept a defensive posture, reasoning that passivity is less likely to provoke our enemies."

This was said an interview with Kimberly Dozier, CNN global affairs analyst. She's joining us. What, Kimberly, is the complexity that he thinks the administration is overlooking? Or is it really just he thinks that the administration is minimizing the threat when it shouldn't?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Brianna, what General Flynn is calling for is a war against not just ISIS, but all of Islamic militancy. And he says it's important to call it Islamic militancy, that is something like the Ronald Reagan campaign against the Soviets.

He wants to see all allies working together on this fight. And what he said was,he tried to communicate this to the Obama administration over and over behind closed doors while he was in office. But he feels the message wasn't getting through.

He did say part of this in an interview to me. But this was clarifying his remarks after he gave this in a speech to a large group of former special operators and intelligence officers. And I have got to tell you, there were a lot of nods and a standing ovation from that crowd.

KEILAR: Yes, so a lot of people there agreeing with him, Kimberly. So, he doesn't like the label that's being used. We have heard the administration use the term violent extremism lately and not using the term Islamic militants, which is what Flynn thinks that they should use.

Can you explain why he thinks that is so important that they use this one label, instead of violent extremism?

DOZIER: From his perspective, this is a partially religious-driven fight.

And he says if you want to understand the enemy and come up with the right tools to fight the enemy, in this case, an ideology to counter this ideology, he thinks it's important to actually call them by the name they call themselves, which is Islamic militants.

Now, from the White House perspective and also from the perspective of a lot of counterviolence extremist specialists I have spoken to, they would like to take the term Islam out of the title and call them criminal extremists. Don't let them use religion to pit one side of the world against each other.

It's one of those debates that happens in the halls of national security and then takes on political overtones. There were a lot of people in that crowd, I have to say, who were wondering if General Flynn might run for office in the future with the direction he was coming from.

KEILAR: OK.

Yes, and many people have said, if you do use Islam in it, maybe it's Islamism, which is sort of hiding behind Islam. I have heard some experts say that as well. You said you were there at this industry conference where Flynn said this. And there were a lot of people who were very much in agreement with him. Do you take that as an indication of rift between the national security world and others in the Obama administration?

DOZIER: Generals are always going to ask for more resources and they are always going to ask to be allowed to give their all to a fight.

A lot of people in the national security forums believe that the Obama administration has decided on a more limited response, sending in 100 trainers, when you could send in 1,000 special operations trainers, and also taking too long to decide to send them, to beef up local forces in areas where you have militancy.

That's the real tension you see. This was a conference of people whose job is to go to Africa, to go to Afghanistan, to go to Syria, and work behind the scenes, maybe two or three officers with 100 foreign officers to teach them how to fight.

And a lot of people in that forum believe if more of them were on the ground sooner, you wouldn't have seen ISIS spiral out of control like it has.

KEILAR: Yes, they certainly do feel that way.

Kimberly Dozier, thank you so much, really good article that you wrote clarifying -- with Flynn clarifying his remarks. Appreciate it.

Next, Israel's prime minister vows terrorists will pay the price for an attack that killed Israeli soldiers. Now there are new concerns that a new war will break out between Israel and Hezbollah.

Plus, two former Vanderbilt University football players accused of rape, as part of their defense, they claimed they were drunk, can't be held responsible for what they did. Now a jury decides their fate. We will discuss why this case could set a precedent.

And as two bodies are found 600 miles from the AirAsia wreckage site, we're now hearing that investigators are looking at whether a possible computer glitch contributed to the crash.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, warns Hezbollah and Iran will "pay the price" for today's deadly attack on an Israeli military convoy.

Two Israeli soldiers and a U.N. peacekeeper from Spain were killed in the missile attack. Violent clashes between the militant group Hezbollah and Israel are raising serious concerns that violence could soon spiral out of control.

Today's attack happened near Har Dov. That's close to the intersection of the Lebanese-Syrian border and the Golan Heights.

Joining me now to discuss this, we have CNN political commentator Peter Beinart. He's contributing editor of "The Atlantic" and National Journal." And this is a tricky time right now, Peter, because we don't exactly

know which way this is going to go. But this could turn into a war.

PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. It certainly could.

The -- Israel will respond very strongly to this. It's probably not as strong as it would have had it been an attack on civilians. But still the death of two Israeli soldiers is very serious. And so I think you will see an Israeli response. It would be strong no matter what. It doesn't hurt that there's an election going on as well.

There's probably some political benefit in responding strongly, although Benjamin Netanyahu would no matter what. And then I think Hezbollah will be under pressure to respond itself. So, the question is, can both maneuver in such a ways to keep this from raging out of control? Or does it in fact rage out of control?

KEILAR: So, why now? Do we have a sense of why this is happening right now? Does it have to do with the election?

BEINART: I think it partly has to do with the Israeli strike last week, where Israel launched a strike. We don't know exactly who they were trying to get. But they managed -- they did kill the son of the former of leader of Hezbollah's military leader. That was a pretty important person and I think probably increased the pressure on Hezbollah to respond.

They also killed an Iranian general, evidently. I think you see that both sides probably face some kind of political pressure here not to lose face. I'm not sure that either side wants an all-out war. Hezbollah is fighting on another front trying to maintain Bashar Assad in power in Syria against Sunni groups.

And I don't think Israel -- Israel's memory of its 2006 conflict with Hezbollah it is pretty bitter memory. I don't think either side wants an all-out war. But sometimes when you try to manage this and keep it within a certain framework, things spiral out of control.

KEILAR: Sure. They can get out of hand.

So, then there are also political ramifications. There's an election coming up. Benjamin Netanyahu is facing reelection. Does he only stand to gain from this or could this also be fraught with risk for him? What could happen here?

BEINART: I think the conventional wisdom tends to be that an Israeli prime minister, especially one on the right, a hawk like Netanyahu, benefits from the sense that there are foreign threats and that Israel is in war.

You see that even his centrist opponents are not criticizing him over this. On the other hand, it's taking place at a moment of particular weakness for Netanyahu in the wake of this kind of debacle about him going to speak before Congress. If there's a sense that this war is being mismanaged, then I think potentially it comes together with the spat with the Obama administration to seem like a prime minister who is not managing foreign relations well.

KEILAR: Yes. He's been invited by a Republican-led Congress to speak before them. And just a little heads-up from Republicans to the White House, the White House not happy about that.

BEINART: Not at all.

KEILAR: At all.

Peter Beinart, thank you so much.

BEINART: Thank you.

KEILAR: Next, two former Vanderbilt football players accused of rape, as part of their defense, they claimed they were drunk. Now they have been found guilty. Nancy Grace telling us what punishment she thinks they should get.

Plus, two bodies found floating maybe from AirAsia Flight 8501, but they were discovered hundreds of miles from the wreckage. We will have details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Two former Vanderbilt University football players have been found guilty of raping an unconscious 21-year-old woman in a dormitory.

Cory Batey and Brandon Vandenburg -- Cory there on the right, Brandon there on the left -- they violated the victim in multiple and really unspeakable ways about a year-and-a-half ago. The victim was on a date with Vandenburg before the rape occurred. And during the trial, she testified about how Vandenburg explained to her the next day what had happened. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told me that I had gotten sick in his room and he had to clean it up and that it was horrible and that he had to spend the whole night taking care of me, and that it was horrible. I apologized. I was embarrassed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: She apologized to him and then later found out what he and his friend had done to her, at least as the jury found it.

The victim cried yesterday when the guilty verdicts were read in court. She was holding back tears as well. She released a statement thanking investigators and rape advocates, adding this -- quote -- "Finally I want to remind other victims of sexual violence you are not alone. You are not to blame."

Joining me now to talk about this is HLN's Nancy Grace.

Nancy, first, I want to recognize the victim here, because she was amazing sitting through every day of court and speaking out and trying to make something good come out of what happened here. But this was really, even after she had no idea what had happened, there was such a strong case for the prosecution because there was video.

NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Yes, there was video.

I want to address something that you mentioned. You said that the crimes on her were unspeakable. And you know what? As long as we don't talk about what happens to rape victims, they live in a shadow, a feeling that it was their fault, that somehow they were responsible.

I will speak it. I will tell the truth. And the truth is, according to a jury, that this man Brandon Vandenburg, her boyfriend, and three of his friends, not just a friend, three other men, raped her. They sodomized her with their bodies and with a water bottle. They took close-up photos of her intimate body parts and videoed it and laughed and made fun of it, and then actually sent the pictures and the video that you're correctly referring to, to their friends.

Their defense at trial was that -- one was that he was too drunk to remember what happened. But he wasn't too drunk to send the pictures to his friends, nor were they too drunk to meet the next morning at a chicken place and try to figure out how they could cover up their crimes and get out of it and destroy evidence.

KEILAR: Yes. That was really the thing to me, Nancy, was that -- and I'm glad that you brought up what happened. We shouldn't say it's unspeakable. I agree with you, because you need to know what happened to this young woman and what she's gone through.

But what really got me was the fact, just like with you, that one of these defendants -- and we should say the other two young men are still awaiting trial. These were the two who have been -- are awaiting sentencing at this point.

GRACE: Yes.

And I have been wondering about that. I wondered why they -- I would put them all in the same pot together, and let them stew, try them together. I'm sure there's a reason they severed the other two. My guess is that these two cases were stronger. And you want to lead with your strongest cases. I'm just guessing that's why they did it.

When I say you have got to say it, I remember the first time I tried a rape case and prosecuted. I could hardly say these things in front of the jury. But you have to make yourself say them, just like she had to go to court and tell the truth.

KEILAR: Yes. And it did get me that, days after, not even just the next morning, there were texts that were being where --

GRACE: Awful.

KEILAR: -- it seemed like these defendants were very clearly cognizant of what had happened. And then they would say, oh, we forgot that. But you so had Batey, who is I guess I could say the main perpetrator

here. He took the stand during the trial. And it was Vandenburg who was on a date with the young woman.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: The boyfriend.

KEILAR: Yes. And he perhaps didn't participate as much --

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: I don't mean to say that. I mean he was egging on --

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Let's pretend that you and I rob a bank, all right, and you go in and get crazy and shoot somebody. I'm into this shooting too. It's one for all and all for one.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And when you say Vandenburg didn't actually physically rape her, I hear what you're saying. He's the one that handed his own girlfriend over to these other three guys on a silver platter.

He's the one that was videoing it, and laughing and instructing them what to do.

KEILAR: Yes.

GRACE: The fact is, he said he had used drugs and he couldn't get an erection. All right? He had to turn on porn there at the time to try to get an erection. All right?

So, he may not have physically raped her, but he was part of the plan. He was responsible for the plan. And he aided and abetted the attack on this woman.

KEILAR: And tell me about -- because I actually wondered, would these other men have done this if he hadn't egged them on? And so for that, there may be an argument that what he did --

GRACE: Was worse?

KEILAR: -- was obviously just as bad, was worse. Is that a precedent, do you think?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: They are -- I don't think him being charged is a precedent, because when you aid and abet and you are part of the crime, you're responsible for what your co-conspirators do.

But, in this case, they are all responsible, all of them. Nobody can point the blame. And that is what the whole defense was. They were all pointing at each other.