Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

ISIS Hostage Swap?; Aaron Hernandez Murder Trial Begins; New Information on AirAsia Crash

Aired January 29, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Let's continue on. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Right now, we're waiting to hear if an unprecedented and potentially deadly hostage swap will or has taken place. This is the border post in Turkey. This is where ISIS and Jordan would make it happen, Jordan saying it's willing to trade a failed suicide bomber to ISIS for one of its own, a captured fighter pilot.

We have heard from that fighter pilot's father, who says whatever ISIS wants, Jordan should give them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAFI AL KASEASBEH, FATHER OF HOSTAGE (through translator): I want to let everyone know in Jordan from the head of the regime down to the last one of the regime, the survival of Muath is the survival of Jordan. They will have to make thousands of calculations if Muath's vanishes. Jordan's survival is attributed to survival of Muath.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: But first Jordan says it want proof of life, proof this pilot is alive.

And then a whole other layer to this, this Japanese journalist. No word yet of his fate, but life and that of the pilot are said to depend on the female suicide bomber's freedom, seen here with a bomb, you will see strapped to her chest, that bomb which by the way failed to go off during that deadly terror attack in Jordan back in 2005.

She now sits on death row in a Jordanian prison. But the question remains, why is ISIS so hell-bent on getting her? Well, that may be because of her ties to the head of ISIS. Let me explain. Her brother is a comrade of the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq. The leader was al- Zawahri, a man you have definitely heard of, and al Zarqawi was a mentor to the man who now runs ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

So, this is all connected.

Joining me now, Aki Peritz, former CIA counterterrorism analyst.

Aki, welcome back.

AKI PERITZ, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Thanks for having me. BALDWIN: So sunset, that time, that deadline time has passed. We still have no word as far as what if anything transpired. But this deal if it happens would absolutely set a precedent for Jordan, because this has been the first time they have ever publicly talked about making such a deal with a terrorist organization like ISIS. Do you think Jordan would renege if they could not get proof of life on their pilot?

PERITZ: It's certainly possible.

Jordan is playing a very high-stakes game. But they also know when to hold them and when they fold them. Sajida al-Rishawi, who is the failed suicide comber we're all talking a , she has been on death row for 10 years now. She's not really an important person as a person. But she means a lot to ISIS and obviously their predecessor group, al Qaeda in Iraq.

The fact that they're willing to actually trade this pretty high- profile individual from at least a decade ago for one of their pilots shows that the Jordanians are willing to risk a lot of international pressure to get their man back.

BALDWIN: How would this even work? That's what I keep coming back to, because there's ISIS video calling for this exchange right along the Turkish border. It makes me think of the video we saw of Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl, remember, exchanged when armed Taliban approached with the white flag.

We have the video, had that rocket-propelled grenade launcher. They were armed just in case something went awry. How do officials here I guess on the Jordanian side make sure they're not about to be ambushed by ISIS?

PERITZ: That's one of the problems that I think the Jordanians really have. How we do know we know the people they're going to trade aren't wearing suicide vests underneath their clothing?

They may very well actually have -- they might have rigged up their hostages to go off once they arrive on the Turkish border. But you have got to remember that if something really goes wrong and that this is actually an ambush, that means that no country will ever negotiate with ISIS ever again, because it shows they are unwilling to engage in sort of the delicate dance that is actually hostage and ransom taking.

If they know that they're going to get their hostages back in a bad way, then they're not really going to pony up the dough they actually use to grease their terror machine.

BALDWIN: But since there has been no precedent set, and we're talking about a life here, a Jordanian fighter pilot, but there are so many variables, how do you weigh the variables with potentially saving this man's life?

PERITZ: One of the things -- and you sort of talked about it before -- is ISIS has not really given a proof of life to the Jordanian government or probably to anybody else. When you sort of engage in these hostage ransom situations, you

actually have to actually show the person you're trying to ransom is actually live. Since ISIS cannot even take a picture of him holding a newspaper, today's newspaper or yesterday's newspaper, it does not bode well for these negotiations. And what about the Japanese journalist?

BALDWIN: What about the Japanese hostage?

PERITZ: Right. We haven't heard anything about him as well.

As you saw, that the Jordanians really want their man back. Whether the Japanese can get their journalist back is kind of secondary to the Jordanians. Obviously, Japan very quietly is putting a lot of pressure on the Jordanian government to help their man out as well, because this is a huge security crisis for the Japanese government.

What are they doing behind the scenes is unclear. But it's really up to both ISIS and the Jordanian intelligence service to make this swap happen if it happens.

BALDWIN: And so we wait.

PERITZ: And so we wait.

BALDWIN: Aki Peritz, thank you.

PERITZ: Thank you very much.

BALDWIN: Aaron Hernandez made millions of dollars playing offense. And now this former NFL star has to put the defense of his life as his murder trial has now officially begun.

In their opening statements today, prosecutors showed jurors the face of the shooting victim which will appear in that computer monitor. There he is. This is Odin Lloyd there. He was just 27 years old when Aaron Hernandez, they say, orchestrated Lloyd's death. He was shot multiple times and then he was found in this industrial park about a half-mile from Hernandez's home.

Jurors today got a lesson in contrasting legal styles. Prosecutors got into the fine details of their evidence, the surveillance video, the texts, et cetera, all the while the family of Odin Lloyd sat in that courtroom and listened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of them were collected, one to the left of Odin Lloyd's foot, another off to his right, two in that little ditch -- I'm sorry -- two in that little area to his left, right, and then one above his head, all to the right side of that photograph.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: As for the defense, they took a broader approach and cast suspicion on Aaron Hernandez's alleged accomplices, these two men, who are due to go to trial at a later date.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL FEE, ATTORNEY FOR AARON HERNANDEZ: They locked on Aaron and they targeted him, even when they developed evidence that two other men, who unlike Aaron were not friends with Odin were with Aaron and Odin that night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, CNN legal analysts Sunny Hostin and Mark Geragos.

Welcome to both of you.

Sunny Hostin, you're first. How did the prosecution do?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, this is a circumstantial case. They don't have a confession, they don't have the weapon, they don't have the gun.

They don't have any witnesses that will testify that Aaron Hernandez killed Odin Lloyd. And so given what they don't have, I think the prosecution did a pretty good job in outlining this very circumstantial case. But I will tell you, Brooke, that circumstantial are really difficult to prove.

And I think they are especially difficult to prove when you can't show motive. Even though as a prosecutor you don't have to show motive, this jury is going to question why someone with so much to lose would do this. And so I think while they did OK, I think that this is a tough case for the prosecution.

BALDWIN: I want to loop back because there's this whole Massachusetts law about joint venture. The prosecution doesn't actually have to prove it was Aaron Hernandez who pulled the trigger, so, back on that in a second.

Mark Geragos, on the defense, came out of the gate, he is an innocent man. They said Odin Lloyd was his friend. How did that lawyer do?

MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think that they were very effective. I think that in a circumstantial case, you have to come strong out of the gate, number one.

And a lot of the judge's pretrial rulings I think favor the defense and help the defense. The fact that they severed the case of the other two so that you can point to them and say those are the guys who did it and that that is where they should have focused on, the fact they excluded the evidence of the other killings I think is monumental pretrial ruling.

She -- her honor has this case focused in a laser-like focus on this particular act. I think the defense is in it and I think they have got a real shot here.

BALDWIN: What about the joint venture in Massachusetts? Explain that a little more fully.

HOSTIN: Yes, in Massachusetts at least, you don't necessarily have to prove for first-degree murder that you were the trigger person. If you were acting in concert with other people, then you can be found guilty.

However, they also don't have evidence that one of the other two pulled the trigger. And so, again, this is a very difficult circumstantial case, because we're talking about first-degree murder. And I'm very curious as to what my friend Mark Geragos thinks, because he often says that cases are won and lost at jury selection.

Now, we have got a jury of right now 18. It's going to be 12, right, 13 women, five men.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: Earlier today, I said this is a very attractive defendant. This is an defendant with $12.5 million guaranteed. This is a celebrity defendant.

I really -- and Cornell in 2010 did a study that says better-looking defendants have a better chance of getting off. I think when you have a defendant like Aaron Hernandez, it strikes me that this jury is defense-friendly.

BALDWIN: That's interesting, because I was reading something totally separate this morning that basically said, since it was not a spousal killing, since it was a man killing a man, perhaps it won't go to your theory as far as all these women on the jury.

Mark Geragos, what do you think?

GERAGOS: Well, you want a presumption of innocence.

If you're famous, you get a presumption of innocence. If you're infamous, you generally do not. You have got that kind of prejudgment of guilt. He's famous. That's a good thing. As Sunny says, he's an attractive defendant.

And a lot of times, you don't have that, as Sunny will also agree. I think having women on the jury and stranger on stranger or meaning it's a non-domestic situation, all of that I think portends well for the defense. I think the defense has got a -- I will repeat it. I think they have got a real shot here.

Without a weapon and without the kind of forensic evidence you would want, they're going to talk about the casings and they're going to talk about other stuff. But I think and I suspect the defense has an answer to some of that stuff. And so if they're going to come down to just trying to say, OK, look, we're going to throw a couple of things at you, we're going to throw the casings at you and we're going to throw some of this other stuff, he was the last one to be seen with him, that is not beyond a reasonable doubt.

That might get you past the preliminary hearing or a probable cause proceeding, but that does not get you to an abiding conviction.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: And the why, the why is my issue I think in front of this issue. What is the motive? This case may very well, Brooke, turn on evidence that was excluded.

BALDWIN: That's what I want to get to. Stand by, both of you, for that. We have got to take a quick break.

But when we come back, I want to ask you about the evidence that is excluded and also that isn't. Also, this new piece of evidence, this came out today from the prosecution talking about this joint that the prosecution says was actually found at this murder scene. That was new today.

Plus, in other news, we now know the co-pilot was flying just before the AirAsia Flight 8501. Hear about the warning heard on that audio.

And emotions erupt at a meeting over the sort of concerns raised in Ferguson, Missouri, this brawl, pushing, shoving breaking out. We will talk to Don Lemon about what was behind this uproar.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: And we're back talking about the Aaron Hernandez trial here. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Prosecution has begun presenting its witnesses on day one here of the trial for Aaron Hernandez, this former New England Patriots superstar tight end. He once had a $40 million contract and now he's accused of first-degree murder.

And what could prove to be a key new detail was revealed in the prosecution's opening statement about Hernandez's DNA found at the crime scene. Here was the assistant district attorney in court today as the murder victim's family just broke down into tears.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK BOMBERG, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Found a joint, a marijuana cigarette, to Odin Lloyd's right. That joint was later analyzed and was determined to have Odin Lloyd's DNA and the defendant's DNA.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: We're back with CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin and Mark Geragos.

Let's just begin sort of what already has been the role of drugs, of marijuana in the opening statements. First you have the prosecutor mentioning the joint that was found right by Odin Lloyd's body with both their DNA on it. And then, two, you have the defense attorney bringing up drugs and the role it played in Aaron Hernandez's life. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FEE: Why would he kill his friend, Odin Lloyd, Odin Lloyd, Odin Lloyd, who was one of his partying pals, his friend Odin who was his source, his supplier of marijuana blunts?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Sunny, what's that about?

HOSTIN: You know, I think that given the fact that marijuana is legal in certain states now and the fact there's been a real movement toward sort of decriminalizing marijuana, prosecutors may still think, oh, my goodness, I'm going to put in front of the jury that he was a drug user. This isn't the straight-up, stand-up athlete guy that you think he is.

I don't know that that gets them very far, given what people think about marijuana now. I do the fact that something was found there, maybe. But, yes, it's...

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: Right, Mark? It's just not...

BALDWIN: Was this the defense attorney saying, OK, it's out there, I'm putting it out there, let's move on?

GERAGOS: Right.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Mark.

GERAGOS: Yes. He's going to blunt the blunt. Give me -- he's going to blunt the blunt. It really makes -- it really is so naive. You see this with prosecutors all the time.

I don't know what -- whether they're living in 1950, '60, or '70, but in this day in age, your average jury says, really, marijuana? That's what you're talking about? We already know they're friends, so why this is such a spectacular piece of evidence as the prosecutor would want to center on it is beyond me.

BALDWIN: OK. Let's move along from blunting the blunt to the evidence that has been banned.

We know they cannot include the text message that Odin Lloyd apparently sent to his sister, saying, you know, NFL, referring to who he was with that night, saying, texting "NFL and just so you know."

That's out. And also they can't talk about or think about the double murder that Aaron Hernandez is indicted for from the summer of 2012. Why is that, Mark Geragos?

GERAGOS: Well, both are correct rulings. The NFL, it's hearsay. She ruled that it's not any kind of dying declaration of any kind. Clearly, it's not coming in. The double murder is the same thing. He hasn't been convicted of

anything. There's no accusation or no theory that those relate in any way, shape, form to this. The only reason the prosecution wanted those in is for the obvious reason. OK. We don't have evidence on this case, so let's just throw up some more about the other two.

The problem here is, is that I would imagine virtually everybody has heard about the other two charges against him. And even though they won't be introduced into the courtroom, they're already out there in the ether. And that's something as a defense lawyer that gives you a lot of sleepless nights.

BALDWIN: All right, Sunny, let me end with you with the dynamics in the courtroom. Right? So, on one side you have Aaron Hernandez's family and you have his fiancee. On the other side, you have Odin Lloyd's family, but you also have the sister.

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: The sister of Aaron Hernandez, yes.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: The fiancee, right. So, they're separate. These sisters are separate. How is that playing out? As a juror, you're not supposed to be watching the family, but you still are.

HOSTIN: Yes. You're not supposed to be. It shouldn't have anything to do with the trial. But jurors watch everything, from what the attorneys are wearing, from your relationship with the witnesses and the defendant, and in the jury gallery or rather in the gallery of the courtroom.

And so I think it is really significant to note that this has torn this family apart. You have got two sisters on opposite sides, one backing the defendant, another one whose boyfriend was killed allegedly by the defendant.

So, it just goes to show you, Brooke, how these cases really tear apart families. But I have got to tell you, I think that that may help the defense, because the defense already in opening statements said, this was his friend. This was his fiancee's sister. Why would he kill them?

(CROSSTALK)

HOSTIN: We get back to the lack of motive, the why, the why, the why, and why I think that it's going to be an uphill battle for this prosecution.

BALDWIN: It's just day one. We have many more days to talk about this.

HOSTIN: Fascinating.

BALDWIN: It is. Sunny Hostin and Mark Geragos, appreciate both of you. Thank you very much.

Next, this terrible scene unfolding near Mexico City where a maternity hospital was hit by a gas explosion. We will see the moment it happened.

Also ahead, new revelations from the final moments of AirAsia Flight 8501, including who was piloting this aircraft and the warnings that went off in the cockpit. Stay here. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The co-pilot of that doomed AirAsia Flight 8501 was flying the plane moments before it crashed. This is according to the Indonesian authorities.

We know this co-pilot, a 46-year-old Frenchman, had much less flying experience than the pilot, who was monitoring the flight. We have also learned that stall warnings were blaring inside the plane as it ascended way too quickly before slamming into the Java Sea.

Joining me now, commercial pilot Fred Tecce, also a former federal prosecutor.

Fred, nice to have you on.

FRED TECCE, COMMERCIAL PILOT: Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: Can you just first explain to me, how does a plane stall? What does that really mean?

TECCE: Well, it's interesting.

It's not stall like in your car, where the engine stops running. What it means is, is that the way an airplane works is the wing is kind of going through the air. And the example I give people is when you hold your hand out the car window when you were a kid, and you could make it kind of go up and down like this.

That's really what a wing does. And when there's enough wind going over that wing, it pulls the airplane up into the air. When there's not enough wind going over the wing, then it stops pulling the airplane and the airplane literally falls out of the sky. So, that's what -- when they talk about a stall, the engines could be at full power and the wings could not be seeing enough wind, and the airplane will fall.

BALDWIN: And that's what happened to that Air France flight, right, that Air France 447?

TECCE: Correct.

In the Air France flight, as in this airplane, both airplanes were at altitude and they began a stall. In the Air France flight -- the way an airplane knows how fast it's going through the air is it has got tiny -- they call them pitot tubes, little tiny tubes in the front of the airplane. Those tubes measure how hard the air is hitting the front of the

airplane compared to some other pressure readings that it takes at the back of the airplane and tells them how fast they're going through space. In the Air France flight, those tubes actually froze up. And so the pilots didn't know how fast the airplane was going through the air.

And again how fast the airplane is going through the air dictates how much wind the wing is going to see. In both of those accidents, the answer to your question is, in both of those accidents, these air airplanes both stalled and then both fell 37,000 feet.

Interestingly, as a pilot, when you train to become a pilot and what these guys do is they're training to recover from a stall in about than 1,000 feet. It boggles my mind as to why it was that two highly trained crews could not recover a sophisticated airplane from a stall from 37,000 feet.

BALDWIN: All right, still so many questions.

Fred Tecce, thank you. Appreciate it.

TECCE: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: You got it.

Coming up, on the biggest sports stage of the year, with tens of millions of watching, what the NFL is planning to do to address the issue of domestic violence.

And next, a sign of just how real and how raw emotions are in Saint Louis, where a meeting about the concerns raised in nearby Ferguson suddenly erupts. Don Lemon talks us through what happened.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)