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Goodell Press Conference Continues; Discussion of the Press Conference

Aired January 30, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ROGER GOODELL, NFL COMMISSIONER: Happen successfully for Las Vegas and for the NFL. A stadium would be a big component to that. I'm not sure that exists right now. But I do understand the passion from the fans in Las Vegas and their interest in football.

NEIL REYNOLDS, SKY SPORTS: Yes, Neil Reynolds from Sky Sports in the United Kingdom.

Can you tell us the thinking behind the move to early kickoff times for the games in London in 2015 and whether that moving to an earlier time shot would enhance chances of a franchise in London or an expanded package of games in the U.K.?

GOODELL: Well, it's something that we experimented with last year. It was our first game at 9:30 Eastern Time here in the states. It ended up being very successful here as our fans had another national window on Sunday morning. And our fans said we love it, we'd like to see more.

But we also had a tremendous reaction in London with our fans. At that particular week last week, last year, it was at 1:30 the game. And our fans were able to go to the game in the afternoon, some of them were coming from other parts of Europe were able to get home. And we found that it was a very positive change. So we wanted to experiment (ph) with more. And we did that this year. In fact, all three of our games will be at 9:30. And we found that it's terrific for our fan both in London and on this side of the pond also. So we'll continue it.

I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the long term future or whether a franchise is there. We are excited about the continuing growth of the popularity of the NFL in the U.K., particularly London. And we're going to continue to learn every year from our experience and continue to try to give them more football, which is what they want.

MIKE REESE, ESPN.COM: Mike Reese with espn.com.

Covering the Patriots. I'm curious, has the NFL ever tested the air pressure of footballs in the middle of a game? And how important is that as a frame of reference in this Patriot's investigation?

GOODELL: Just so I'm clear, when you say middle of the game, do you mean while play is going on?

REESE: At halftime. GOODELL: Well, I think we were pretty clear, we tested them at the AFC

championship game at halftime.

REESE: But have they ever been tested in other games as a frame of reference related to that?

GOODELL: I don't know the answer to that question. That would be something I presume that Ted Wells will look into and will provide that information for.

KEN NELSON (ph), "NEW YORK TIMES": Commissioner, Ken Nelson, "New York Times."

I'm just -- I understand this is ultimately not your decision, but do you believe you personally deserve a pay cut this year for your performance?

GOODELL: That's up to the owners. They evaluate my performance, they evaluate my compensation every year and I don't argue.

DAN KAPLAN, "SPORTS BUSINESS JOURNAL": Hi, commissioner, Dan Kaplan, "Sports Business Journal."

Four years ago you challenged owners to get to $25 billion of league revenues, I think it was within a 15 or 17 year time frame. Do you think you'll reach that objective?

GOODELL: Well, the challenge wasn't just to the owners, it was to all of us. We wanted to make sure that we were continuing to grow the league in not only its popularity, but also opportunities to grow revenue. I don't know whether we'll get there, but we're working towards that goal. It's something that we think is practical. But we want to do the growth in the right way.

The most important thing is we -- everything we do has to become high quality. It has to be done in a way that reflects well in the NFL. So we're not going to pursue revenue without an important aspect of how does that impact our brand, how does it impact what we're doing to make sure that we're delivering on what we need to deliver to our fans. So, it's a goal, but it's not something we're going to overlook other important objectives for.

HEATHER YAKO, NBC NEWS 11: Heather Yako, NBC News 11 here in Arizona.

GOODELL: Hi Heather. Yes, I see you.

YAKO: Thank you. OK. Why did we plan on having Super Bowl XLIX in Arizona this year? And do you feel like a lot of the ball controversy has taken away from Sunday's game?

GOODELL: What was the first part of your question, Heather?

YAKO: Why we decided to go with Arizona for Super Bowl XLIX?

GOODELL: Well, Arizona earned it. We've had a great experience here in Arizona in prior years. They put together a winning bid that our ownership selected. And they deserve it. And I think the proof is in pudding. They have done an outstanding job this week. We still have more work to do. But we couldn't be happier with the hospitality, with the plans, the cooperation. To put on an event like this takes a lot of people. And this community has wrapped their arms around every opportunity and made the Super Bowl even bigger and better for our fans and for the NFL overall. So, we're thrilled about being here and we look forward to coming back.

VIC CARUCCI, BUFFALO NEWS: Commissioner, Vic Carucci, Buffalo News.

In light of the new ownership in Buffalo, what's your perspective on the need for a new stadium? And what would be the timetable in your mind for when that should be built?

GOODELL: Well, as you know, they have new ownership. Terry and Kim have been very focused on the stadium. I think that's one of the things they're evaluating with their franchise. What's the next generation of stadium. I think that's an important consideration for the Buffalo market in that region, but also for the NFL and Terry and Kim.

I do believe that a stadium long term is going to be needed in that marketplace. I'm from western New York. I love Ralph Wilson Stadium, but it's got to compete against a lot of these new stadiums that have a lot of very important features that that stadium doesn't have.

So they're going through that process. We will certainly work with them, cooperate with them. And if we can be helpful, we will.

ROGER PARNHUB (ph), "THE NEW YORK POST": Roger Parnhub (ph) with "The New York Post."

Richard Sherman alluded to this the other day, about, you know, possible favoritism on your part toward owners, specific owners, specifically Robert Kraft and "GQ" magazine even quoted a league executive saying -- calling him the assistant commissioner. You know, how do you react to this allegation and will you avoid having your picture taken at owner's houses before any future conference championship games?

GOODELL: No, I won't, but I was at the Kraft's resident, along with season ticket holders, sponsors, media partners, the night before as part of an AFC championship party. That's part of what we do. And I was there to participate in a program with our partner CBS, taking questions from the audience. And it's something that I do on a regular basis. So that's not unusual.

It's also not unusual that I work very closely with ownership, particularly someone as - that -- like Robert Kraft, who serves on multiple committees. The broadcast committee, we spent an awful lot of time on that. He's on the finance committee. He works on several important league initiatives. So, professionally, I have a relationship with him. And I also admire, respect, and think very highly of him on a personal level. So I -- there's no hiding from that standpoint. But since he knows me so well and he knows me and that I am not going

to do anything to compromise the integrity of the league, I think he has no doubt that I will do the right thing for the NFL.

JESSE COLE (ph), BLEACHERREPORT.COM: Roger, over here. Jesse Coal, bleacherreport.com.

GOODELL: (INAUDIBLE).

COLE: My question about deflate-gate is, I'm trying to sort this out in my own head is, how is throwing a deflated ball drastically different from throwing a spinner (ph) in baseball, which is not considered the worst crime in the world -- a suspendable offense, but maybe a few games. How do you see it differently?

GOODELL: Well, I can't really respond to what happens in baseball and other sports. We have rules. We're a league of rules. There are 32 teams. Our partners and every fan expects us to follow those rules. And if there are rules that dictate the pressure in footballs, or there are rules about how the game is played between the white lines, we're going to enforce those rules. And they'll be enforced whether they're enforced with penalties, with financial penalties, with suspensions, with draft choices. Any number of things can be used in the context of that if there's a violation of those rules. Whether a competitor advantage was actually gained or not is secondary in my mind to whether that rule was violated. That's the integrity of our game. And when those rules are violated, we will take that seriously.

Yes.

KEVIN ACEE, SAN DIEGO UNION TRIBUNE: Roger, Kevin Acee from the San Diego Union Tribune.

Just minutes ago the mayor in San Diego announced a task force to explore the stadium getting built there. You've been very complimentary of what Dean Spanos has done in terms of trying to get that done there. Can you speak to the fans there about how important it is? Do they need a new stadium? And, also, has Dean done enough to demonstrate that he's tried to work things out locally?

GOODELL: Well, the answer is, we all have to work together on this. So from a fan perspective, from a Charger standpoint, from the NFL's standpoint, from public officials and the business community, this is a shared responsibility. Dean and his family have worked for 10 to 12 years trying to get a new stadium. They do need a new stadium for the Chargers to be successful there long term. It's one of the oldest stadiums in the league, if not the oldest stadium in the league. And we need that for the fans also. It's important to the franchise so they can remain competitive, but it's also important for the fans because fans expect those amenities now. So it's something we'll continue to work. I'm glad to hear he's got a task force going. But they have been working at this for 12 years and it's something that we need to see tangible results sooner rather than later.

Yes.

JEFF DUNCAN, NOLA.COM TIMES-PICAYUNE: Roger, Jeff Duncan, nola.com, Times-Picayune. Happy Mardi Gras.

GOODELL: Happy Mardi Gras to you too.

DUNCAN: As you're aware, I'm sure, a lawsuit has been filed in New Orleans seeking an interdiction of Saint's owner Tom Benson. It questions, among other things, his mental acuity, his physical ability to run the team. In your opinion, is Tom Benson mentally and physically capable of owning and operating the New Orleans Saints and should Saint 's fans have any concern about the stability of the organization and its future of success?

GOODELL: Well, Jeff, I spoke to Tom Benson just the other day. He was going into the office, as usual. He was in complete control, energetic, excited about getting to the office, asking about league issues. As you know, he's been one of our more active owners in the league on various committees. They obviously have a dispute going on, which is always unfortunate in this case. It deals with succession as opposed to the current management. And Tom Benson is a man of great integrity and a man that is enthusiastic about the NFL, The Saint, New Orleans and somebody that has demonstrated to me he's got complete control over what he's doing to make sure that organization goes in the right direction.

Yes.

IAN WALKER (ph), LONDON EVENING STANDARD: Hi. Ian Walker (ph) from the London Evening Standard.

Just following up on London. You've got support over there in the government and the media and your (INAUDIBLE) play six teams is now being introduced into London schools, which is fantastic. What more does London need to do, do you think, to actually progress the game there and maybe somewhere down the line actually achieving a franchise?

GOODELL: Well, I would tell you that London has done not only everything that we expected, but more than we expected. They're responding to the game better than we ever dreamed with more enthusiasm, more passion. And you see it every year. When I was back last fall, you can see the passion and the understanding of the game. Every event that we have explodes with interest. We are continuing to advance our interests over there from the standpoint of playing more games. The more media coverage that we have obviously leads to better understanding of the game on a national basis. We are working with sponsors. We are working with fans directly. But already the three games that we have here, the report I had yesterday was just a couple thousand tickets, they may be sold out by now. That's three games in an incredibly short period of time. So their passion is obvious. We want to continue to respond to that fan interest. And if we do, we don't know where it will go, but I think there's great potential in London for the NFL.

Yes.

DAVE BRIGGS, CNBC: Dave Briggs, CNBC. The average ticket is now over $10,000, making it the most expensive

Super Bowl and the most expensive sporting event of all time. But there's concern that the free market's not dictating prices, that it's being fixed, that it's being manipulated. Is there any concern? And is that something the league has looked into?

GOODELL: Well, just to be specific to your question, I think you meant on a secondary level.

BRIGGS: Yes.

GOODELL: The prices are at that level. I think that shows the incredible fan demand. We, obviously, follow that closely. We follow the various secondary ticket marketing companies. We want to make sure that our fans are protected. So we will follow that closely and make sure that everything's being done to protect the fan interest. As this game continues to increase in its popularity, we want to make sure the game continues to stay accessible also.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, we'll take one more question.

GOODELL: Before we do that, if I could just take one minute to thank the people of this region in Arizona, starting with the Bidwell (ph) family, who, without them, without their leadership, without the work that they've done, we would not be here. And so we thank them, Mike and his entire family, for the tremendous work.

I'd also like to thank, of course, Governor Ducey, who I had the pleasure of having dinner with last night, and the work that he's done, the cooperation. The various mayors in the regions have been wonderful. And we want to thank all of you for that work. And certainly David Brewso (ph) and Jay Perry (ph), who led the effort here with the Super Bowl host committee. They have done an extraordinary job and we thank them for that work.

Yes, Mark.

MARK MASKE, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Roger, Mark Maske from "The Washington Post."

You made a series of proposals in early 2008, in the aftermath of the spy-gate penalties regarding future competitive violations. You wrote then of increased penalties and also a lower threshold in terms of the standard of proof and then the owners ratified those. Have those standards come up in any case since then? And do you consider them - particularly the lower burden of proof to be in effect as you move forward in investigating this case?

GOODELL: Well, we want the truth, Mark. That's what I think our fans want. That's what our clubs want. And so what we want to do is make sure that we find that truth. If there are violations of the rules, we take them seriously, particularly when they deal with the integrity of the game and the rules.

The standards are always re-evaluated. We will make sure that if the penalties that exist in any given circumstances don't fit those violations, we'll adjust that, we'll increase that. That's important for us to do as we continue to make sure that the league is run in the appropriate way and with the right integrity.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, thank you.

GOODELL: OK. Thank you. Enjoy the weekend.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. So you've been watching, the last 45 minutes, the NFL commissioner, Roger Goodell, there in Phoenix, Arizona. A couple days before the big event on Sunday, the Super Bowl XLIX. Pats taking on the Seahawks.

But what you've been listening to is a number of different questions toward the commissioner who's had the post since 2006. Everything from why did you pick Arizona as a location, to, you know, the investigate into deflate-gate, where that stands now, to his relationship with the Pats' owner Robert Kraft, to should his pay be docked based upon his performance this past season.

So let's open it up. We've got a lot of people on this panel. Let's talk a little bit more about what Goodell said. We have LZ Granderson, CNN commentator and senior writer for ESPN. I've got Chris Simms here with me in New York, former NFL quarterback, analyst with the Bleacher Report. Gabriel Sherman wrote a phenomenal piece in "GQ" that was quoted actually in that newser where a "GQ" profiled Roger Goodell. Damon Huard, a former New England Patriots quarterback, backed up Tom Brady from '01 to '03, and I also have Wally Williams, former NFL player, formally with the Baltimore Ravens.

So, welcome to all of you. And I've got Rachel Nichols floating around and also Christine Brennan. Rachel got one of the questions in for Goodell.

But to the gentlemen to my right, let me just begin, actually, Gabriel, with you. And let's just get right to it. To the issue with deflate-gate. You know, I was checking your Twitter earlier and you said the question you would have asked was, how can Goodell be unbiased in this investigation into the deflate-gate because of his clearly very close relationship to the Patriots' owner, Robert Kraft?

GABRIEL SHERMAN, GQ WRITER, PROFILED ROGER GOODELL: I mean that is the question and he sort of dodged it in this press conference.

BALDWIN: He did dodge the question.

SHERMAN: And, you know, Robert Kraft helped make him commissioner in 2006. He sits on the committee that determines Roger Goodell's $44 million pay package. He sits on the broadcast committee that's responsible for the multibillion dollar rights deals that they sign with the TV network. So this is a man that Roger Goodell essentially owes his career to and now he's in charge of litigating this case. And so, to me, that is a clear conflict. And I don't think he gave a satisfactory answer.

BALDWIN: We showed the picture (ph), and we can show it again, because we know - and he was saying, listen, I was with some of the season ticket owners. This was the night before the AFC championship game. And what you see, Bob Kraft and Roger Goodell and their wives all hanging out at - it was Kraft's house, correct?

CHRIS SIMMS, FORMER NFL QUARTERBACK: Yes. (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: So, to you, Chris, when you see all of this, and he said specifically his words on deflate-gate, we have made no judgments on that.

SIMMS: Yes.

BALDWIN: What was your take away?

SIMMS: Well, I do - I don't think they have made judgments on that. I think my -- the issue that I have, I think ex-player, the media, all of us alike, is just that the NFL, they always seem to have protocol when it comes to governing the players of the NFL, whether it's being, you know, off the field incidents, drug violations, whatever it is. And then when it comes to governing themselves, you don't ever see a policy quite in place. It's kind of like, oh, we're just going to make it up by the seat of our pants.

I think that's what bothers me. I am interested to see how this whole thing plays out because of the Robert Kraft issue. Everybody knows around the NFL he is certainly one of the more powerful owners in this league. Roger Goodell and him do have a very good relationship. So there's still a lot of questions and information that needs to be released. There's no doubt about it. But the integrity of the game, if this all does end up being true, there needs to be harsh penalties by the NFL on the New England Patriots if we do find it to be true.

BALDWIN: And, if not, we heard from Robert Kraft earlier in the week, before we even heard from Belichick and from Brady saying, I want an apology. We'll see if we get that.

LZ Granderson, what do you think? What jumped out at you in that news conference?

LZ GRANDERSON, CNN COMMENTATOR: The lack of discussion regarding domestic violence. I would have thought that -

BALDWIN: I agree.

GRANDERSON: It would have been more prominent in his initial address. And then also from the reporter's themselves. They seemed to, you know, be scattered or, you know, in a multitude of different ways. And I wanted to really see them hone in on that particular issue because that was the biggest scandal for NFL in 2014 and obviously it's also the issue that means most to greater society and the impact culturally that the NFL has. And so I was disappointed in the lack of emphasis that was overall in the press conference with the issue of domestic violence.

BALDWIN: In the wake of the Ray Rice incident, in the wake of this new policy, the six game suspension, you know, everything that we've discussed, the fact that we'll be seeing this domestic violence awareness ad on Super Bowl Sunday. Christine, I mean, should we say shame on Goodell but also shame on the media for not asking?

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: I think we could say both, although I do think there was that sense that when he was saying that they've learned and it's humility and all of the issues, I think that was code for the domestic violence story. I do feel that. And I think that, you know, the NFL has done some things. And no other league on earth has done anything.

What was more interesting to me -- or what was as interesting to me was that early on there was a tone of humility from the commissioner. He seemed to get it. And then when our colleague, Rachel Nichols, asked her question, there was that kind of surprisingly cynical response about somebody's got to pay for it, Rachel, that was so uncharacteristic of Commissioner Roger Goodell.

BALDWIN: Well, let's go back to her question. Let's go back to her question, because I jotted it down.

BRENNAN: Sure.

BALDWIN: She was asking about a conflict of interest. She was mentioning how they hired this outside investigator to investigate deflate-gate. What was - what was she getting at there, Christine?

Oh, actually, we have it. We have it. They're telling me in my ear. Let's roll Rachel Nichols' question.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN: Rachel Nichols from CNN.

Roger, you guys have faced a lot of problems over the past year that have a really wide range, but a lot of the issues have in common is a conflict of interest. When you do something like hire an outside investigator like Ted Wells into the Patriot's investigation, you're still paying him and Robert Kraft, who owns the Patriots, is still paying you. So everybody when you do everything right in one of those situations, it opens you guys up to a credibility gap with some of the public and even with some of your most high profile players. What steps can you guys take in the future to mitigate some of those conflict of interest issues?

ROGER GOODELL, NFL COMMISSIONER: Well, Rachel, I don't agree with you on a lot of the assumptions you make in your question. I think we have had people that have uncompromising integrity. Robert Mueller is an example who, I think you asked me the same question last fall about a conflict of interest. Their integrity is impeccable. Ted Wells' integrity is impeccable. These are professionals that bring in outside expertise and an outside perspective. And their conclusions are drawn only by the evidence and only by the attempt to try and to identify that truth.

So I think we have done an excellent job of bringing in outside consultants in. Somebody has to pay them, Rachel. So, unless you're volunteering, which I don't think you are, we will do that. But we have the responsibility to protect the integrity of the league, whether we have an owner that's being investigated or whether we have a commissioner that's being investigated. They're done at the highest level of integrity and quality.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Christine, just following up with you, since you brought it up. I mean you can understand her question in the sense of a conflict of interest, right, because this money for this outside investigator would be coming from the league. At the same time, who would then be paying for the investigator to investigate?

BRENNAN: Rachel's question was excellent. It's all about integrity, it's all about conflict of interest. And what Roger Goodell gave there I thought was a very corporate answer that, well, their integrity's impeccable. Well, that wasn't the question. The question was about the conflict of interests. Conflict of interest exists. Rachel nailed it. And, as I said, I was surprised, very surprised because I thought otherwise Goodell struck a very conciliatory and a much better tone than in September. I was very surprised that he took that little turn, that little jab at Rachel at the end. Very unbecoming of the commissioner and I think -

BALDWIN: He did.

BRENNAN: It will be something that is discussed for many hours and maybe even days to come.

BALDWIN: Wally, what did you hear? What jumped out at you?

WALLY WILLIAMS, FORMER NFL FOOTBALL PLAYER: Well, along with Rachel's question, which I thought was, like we talked about, a very excellent question, I think he showed us that this is business as usual. You know, the questions about different franchises and, of course, London and the upgrade of stadiums and all these things that have - that they're looking for in the future, I think Roger Goodell really is a guy who speaks for the owners and maintains business of NFL. That's why you saw the answers, as corporate as they may be, that's his job to bring money, as much as he can to the owners in many different way. And as long as that is at the forefront of all the owners involved, the Bob Krafts of the world, the Jerry Jones of the world, I think that is going to be the main focus. And all the issues that ex-players have problems with, all the issues that current players have problems with, will not be addressed. And, of course he said it was a tough year. How tough can your year be when you're making $44 million. A tough year is when you lose your job. And I think as a result of some of his decisions, that probably should have been the essence of a tough year as far as I'm concerned, to lose your job.

BALDWIN: I mean, on that point, Damon, let me go to you. The last time we talked you brought in some deflated footballs, but this is much more serious. I mean one of the - one of the best questions I think that was asked was, you know, do you deserve a pay cut this year because of your performance? You know, Gabriel, next to me, wrote this piece in "GQ" calling it the season from hell. As a result of that, should he be hit by that? DAMON HUARD, BAKED UP TOM BRADY FROM 2001 TO 2003: You know, I don't

think so. I mean this guy's job is tough. Let's face it. I'm going to look at the positives here. You know, there were a lot of great things I thought that Roger Goodell mentioned, talking about the safety of the game, the improvements he's made. I can talk, as a former player, that the outreach that the NFL has done to us, you know, whether -- regards to getting our brains studying or furthering our education, I'm going to look at some of the good things he's done. I mean let's face it, this is the toughest job in the world, the greatest sport in the world right now. You're not going to please everybody. It's the highest Super Bowl ticket you could pay for on the planet. People love football. It's not going away. There are certainly tough issues to battle, the domestic issues, the fights, the concussions, all these things. Not an easy job. As a former player, I think Roger Goodell is doing an outstanding job.

BALDWIN: Chris, you're nodding.

SIMMS: Yes, well, I agree with what Damon says there. I think the big thing too is, you know, you can't put all the blame on Roger Goodell because of what we're saying here. The NFL owners are a big part of this as well. All 32 of them. Not just Robert Kraft. They have meeting -- owner meetings in the off season. They need to figure out some of the fundamental flaws that are going on as far as their protocol goes, as far as governing themselves. And I think the other thing that jumped out to me, especially about the Robert Kraft press conference on Monday when he made his bold statement.

BALDWIN: Yes.

SIMMS: The NFL has to stops the leaks of information about deflate- gate because that's why he wants an apology. Well, I'm almost happy that it's happening to an owner because there's player's information leaked all the time, whether they did fail a drug test or things like that, of that nature, that seems to always gets out there. You know, the owners need to meet on all those things and maybe just tighten down the screws behind the scenes a little bit to get the whole NFL on one page.

BALDWIN: What about in terms of getting the whole picture when it comes to this whole deflate-gate and Tom Brady, when he spoke, I think it was the second to last time, when -- sometime last week and he was talking about it, he said he had nothing to do with it and he said he had not been interviewed by the NFL. How is that possible?

SHERMAN: Well, this is - this touches on something that I was boggled by reporting on the NFL.

BALDWIN: Yes.

SHERMAN: This is a multibillion dollar corporation essentially. They have the vast resources to conduct what should be the best investigations in America. And yet, if you look at Ray Rice, if you look at deflate-gate, what it appears to be, they botch these investigations. We know bounty-gate was a completely botched investigation. Goodell's predecessor, Paul Tagliabue, came in and vacated all of the penalties that Goodell issued. So, you know, this organization has proved itself essentially incompetent when it has come to investigating. And that, to me, is -- I'm confounded by it because they have vast resources. They should be able to get it right.

BALDWIN: So then is it a Goodell issue? Is it everyone he surrounds himself with? How does that change?

SIMMS: Yes.

BALDWIN: How does that change?

SHERMAN: Well, you know, I think a little -

BALDWIN: Not just the culture, the corporation?

SHERMAN: I think it does come back to Goodell. If you look at his testimony in the Ray Rice hearing this fall, he essentially showed himself to be kind of out of the loop. He wasn't in on the details. He took only a few notes in the - in the hearing. He --

BALDWIN: He is the commissioner of the league.

SHERMAN: So he seemed to be a guy that did not have a firm hand on the wheel. He famously will say, whenever he's asked, he's not a lawyer. He relies on his council, Jeff Pash. So he doesn't have kind of the legal, sort of big picture strategic thinking to handle these complex problems. So I do sort of say it does flow from the top.

BALDWIN: OK. I wanted to hear -- I heard somebody trying to get in.

GRANDERSON: Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes, yes, go ahead.

GRANDERSON: Yes, Brooke.

WILLIAMS: Well -

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Wally. Wally, Wally, go ahead. Oh, sorry --

WILLIAMS: OK. Well, I'm actually - I'm actually surprised -

BALDWIN: LZ.

WILLIAMS: I'm actually surprised that - am I - I'm actually surprised that ex-players saying that there's no accountability and that he's doing a good job. I mean, look, we as players are held to a certain standard and have to deal with the ramifications of us not doing our jobs, whether it be fines, penalties and all these things are involved. And, yes, it's a hard job that you have to maintain, even as players. But, look, when you make a mistake, you have to pay something. You have something taken out of your check. And I don't understand how we can honestly say that this past season, with all the resources that we just talked about, that Roger Goodell did a good job.