Return to Transcripts main page
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
ISIS Video Shows Pilot Burned Alive in A Cage; Interview with Michael Steinbach; Vaccination Debates and Measles Outbreak in the U.S.; Bobbi Kristina Brown Transferred to Emory Hospital
Aired February 3, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
Tonight, reaction and there was plenty of it's tonight including from the White House just moments ago after the latest assault on human decency from the killers known as ISIS.
Cries and outraged and calls from retribution in Amman, Jordan after terror group released a video apparently documenting the incineration, the burning to death of captured Jordanian fighter pilot.
We say apparently only because we've not independently authenticated the video not because there's much doubt about it. We're obviously not going to show or broadcast it to you. I have seen the tape, however, there could be no doubt at all about what these killers have done.
They burned this man alive after stringing Jordan in the world along day after day suggesting that he was not already dead. He was according to Jordan military, which now says he was killed about a month ago.
The ISIS video, 22 minutes long, shows a caged Jordanian air force pilot being burned to his death, his remains then bulldozed into the ground.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Should in fact this video be authentic, it's just one more indication of the viciousness and barbarity of this organization. And it -- I think will redouble the vigilance and determination on the part of a global coalition to make sure that they are degraded and ultimately defeated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, this happened all with Jordan's King Abdullah in Washington. With just a short time ago, he wrapped up the meeting with President Obama.
Our Chief National Security Correspondent Jim Sciutto joins us now. What do we know about the meeting?
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, we're told by the White House that the meeting, in the meeting, the president expressed his deepest condolences of course, to the Jordanian king. And that the two of them agreed that the vile murder, this is the words of the White House, will only serve to steal the international community's resolve to fight ISIS.
You have a lot of those expressions today that this will only strengthen the coalition rather than weaken it. We know the president met for about 20 minutes with the king, it's a bit short but the king eager to get home. He shortens his trip here and Vice President Biden, Secretary of State Kerry also present in that meeting tonight.
COOPER: Are there any indications that this latest execution, this video could affect the U.S. led coalition against ISIS? Obviously, Jordan is a very important member of that and much of the video is really geared towards the Arab world.
SCIUTTO: No question, Jordan a leading member. You have five Arab countries involved in that coalition. So far the White House says they've only heard more support rather than less support from coalition members for this fight against ISIS. And you're seeing that in the public demonstrations as well. Those people in the streets that you showed a few minutes ago, Anderson, voicing their support, in fact, calling for revenge.
But I tell you, this reminded me to some degree and I'm sure brought back memories for you too, of one of those four American contractors were killed in Fallujah in Iraq in 2004 which lead to, you know, a very angry response from Americans, it helps sparks an invasion of Fallujah.
You know you can have those initial reactions but the cost of military conflict like this, you know, happen over time. And this is going to be potentially costly for Jordan and the other countries involved and that's really going to be the real test. Is over time, over the months and frankly years, it's going to take to fight this war, due to the public and Arab world and here in the U.S. and Europe continue to support this. That's the question.
COOPER: We should also pointed out at the end of this video, ISIS basically puts on bouncing on other Jordanian pilots even showing their pictures, showing their names, showing allegedly, what basis they actually live on.
Jim, I appreciate the reporting.
Now let's go to Jordan for the reaction there. Jomana Karadsheh is there for us. What have you been seeing on the street in Amman elsewhere tonight? It seems that there is a huge amount of anger.
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Anderson. This is a nation in mourning tonight. But we have seen a number of demonstrations here in the capital Amman. Hundreds of people took to the street really angry and shocked why what they've seen. Many saying they cannot believe that Muslims would do this to a fellow Muslim. And of course those calls for revenge, they're seeking blood, they say, that the life of Moaz al-Kasasbeh should not be wasted in vain. That Jordan should take action and avenge his death.
And this is of course something we have heard, the Jordanian government and the Jordanian military earlier saying that they will be doing, they have promised, that there's going to be a tough retaliation, something they say that is going to be equal to the tragedy of Jordanians, Anderson.
COOPER: And we just saw and heard the reporting, King Abdullah at the White House earlier this evening heading back to Jordan early. Do we know exactly what is expected to happen in terms of military action or other action?
KARADSHEH: Well, Anderson, you've got these calls for revenge from the street. And you've got the promises of retaliation from the government. Whatever, King Abdullah, whatever the government here is going to do, they're going to have to act fast. There's so much anger on the street and so far, we're seeing this anger directed towards ISIS.
But this nation, there has been division. There have been mixed feelings about Jordan's participation in the coalition with some feeling that this is not Jordan's war. That the country should not be taking part in the airstrikes and this is why the country right now is in this situation. And you have others who believe that Jordan should be going after ISIS before ISIS comes after Jordan in from those neighboring countries of Iraq and Syria.
So right now, the feeling is that the government should act really fast before that anger may be directed towards the government with those sentiments of not wanting to be a part of the coalition. Of course, there are a number of options that the government, that the king could decide to take whether it's military action, whether it's a crackdown on ISIS supporters and sympathizers in the country. And of course, we've heard calls on the street here tonight, and also over the past week, Jordanians calling for the execution of Al-Qaeda and ISIS prisoners in Jordanian jails.
COOPER: Particularly the execution of the woman who's been in death row in Jordan, the failed suicide bomber took part on those attacks in 2005. There have been calls for her execution. Because she was one of the people that -- or she was the person ISIS was demanding to release of it in return for the Japanese prisoner and even this Jordanian, even though now seen he was previously killed. We'll see if there is action on that and if she is executed.
Jamana, I appreciate the reporting.
Separately today, more evidence of the spread of ISIS. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police today arresting one man seeking two others on ISIS related terror charges. And just to underscore, how tense it is in Jordan, the U.S. Embassy there pulled out a bullet in today urging Americans to defer non-essential travel to the kingdom steer clear of demonstrations.
One fugitive of a man named John McGuire is a recent convert Islam who traveled to Syria to join the fight. Let's get some perspective now from CNN National Security Analyst
Peter Bergen, CNN Military Analyst Retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, also Karima Bennoune, she's the author of "Your Fatwa Does Not Apply Here" untold stories from the fight against Muslim fundamentalism.
Peter, obviously this video, I mean, it is an escalation in the way they are murdering hostages. Clearly, seems to be designed to shock and continue trying to dominate headlines to get attention.
PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, but I think it's going buy for us spectacularly. I mean, if you go back to the hotel bombings where the female suicide bomber would the ISIS wanted. They killed 60 people. Most of these people were attending a wedding.
COOPER: Three different hotels in Amman.
BERGEN: Three different hotels in Amman. It was a huge own goal for Al-Qaeda. The head of Al-Qaeda at the time, who was a Jordanian, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi sort of had almost issue an apology saying, we attacked these hotels because Israeli spies were frequenting them. And I think that is that kind own goal on steroids here where, you know, these groups position themselves as a defender of Islam and Muslims. And yet the victims are overwhelmingly Muslim and in this particular case, they killed a fellow Muslim in the most grizzly way imaginable.
So I think, just as the Jim Foley execution precipitated the coalition against ISIS that we now have. This will just precipitate I think, more Arab involvement in a coalition against them.
COOPER: And if it's true, Peter, that this pilot was in fact killed a month ago, that this barbaric execution was a month ago, that whole, you know, charade of ISIS saying, well, bring the female suicide bomber to the border. We'll exchange. I mean, all of that was just a complete lie.
BERGEN: Yes. It was a particularly evil form of performance art. You know terrorism is a form of theater where you want a lot of people watching and unfortunately, they've had a lot of people watching. In the long-term, I don't think it makes sense to them but I think they're digging their own graves in a sense. But, you know, resist some uncomfortable questions about the hostages that has still have. Are they, you know, can you negotiate at all with these groups since they haven't negotiated good faith in any case?
COOPER: Right. Karima, I mean, do you believe as Peter said, this could backfire on ISIS?
KARIMA BENNOUNE, "YOUR FATWA DOES NOT APPLY HERE" AUTHOR: Absolutely. I think this exposes ISIS for the cruel murderers that they are, yet again, and it underscores the reality that the majority of those that they have killed have been other Muslims and people of Muslim heritage which is true Jihadist groups around the world.
COOPER: I mean, that's what surprised me in Jamana's reporting that she was hearing people in the streets in Amman saying they were surprised that this group would do this to other Muslims. I mean, this is not just the latest example of that. We have seen time and time again more Muslims have been killed than anyone else probably.
BENNOUNE: Absolutely. I think back to my father's home country of Algeria in the 1990s where as many as 200,000 people were killed by the Islamic state of that day, the armed Islamic group. And people would say things like they dreamed of a bullet in the head because they were afraid of such a cruel death as we have seen today.
So these have been murderers of Muslims for a long time, these Salafi Jihadist groups. And the most important thing now is that Muslims and people of Muslim heritage around the world mobilize on mass against these movements, go after their ideology, discredit that ideology.
My father always said that these movements trample Islam under foot in the name of Jihad and that they represent a radical break with the Islam of our ancestors and we have to go forward with that understanding.
COOPER: Colonel, you know members of the Jordanian military. What do you think this means in terms of their commitment to fighting ISIS? Because, I mean obviously, there are divisions in Jordan. There has been criticism but in some quarters in Jordan for Jordan's involvement in the coalition against ISIS. Do you think this cracks the coalition or strengthens it?
LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think Jordan's involvement is pretty much guaranteed right now. The king has to do something. I think, he's going to have to be committed to some sort of action underneath that they have to do it very quickly.
My concern isn't Jordan right now. My concern, as you mentioned is the other members of the coalition, particularly the other Arab members of the coalition. The Saudis, the Gauderies (ph), the Emirates are they going to still want to continue the fight when they see how their troops might be treated? Fellow Muslims. If any of them are captured, they can expect this sort of faith.
So I'm hoping that the coalition hangs tight together and I think a lot of that will depends on just what Jordan does. Now Jordan has excellent capabilities. I spoke today with some members of the role Jordanian air force, they said they are ready to go; they're ready to obey the orders of the king. But they want to do something.
They feel that they have a score to settle, but I think, and I hope that they do this rationally and not out of something, we have to be quickly. I think they needed to do something correctly. I think they need to send a message.
COOPER: Peter, how vulnerable is Jordan. I mean, obviously it's a close ally of the United States. There secret police have been used by the United States in a variety of ways over the years.
BERGEN: Yes. COOPER: Obviously, I mean, again, the end of this video basically --
I mean throughout the video is pain in target on the king of Jordan, not the best anything new but also on this on any other pilots who may be involved in air strikes.
BERGEN: They have extremely effective internal intelligence service, the Jihadist and they have taken a pretty firm line on Islamic extremists. That said you know the parent organization of ISIS is Al- Qaeda in Iraq, the founder of that was Jordanian. So they have an extremist and problem. Is not a rich country does not have much resources it's small as huge refugee population from Iraq in Syria. Probably does some extremists in there.
So you know, it's vulnerable, but I mean, Jordan has survived the Arab spring pretty well because it's say, it's made it all efforts on reform. I don't think this, you know, I don't see ISIS over shrine the Jordanian monarchy.
COOPER: Karima, it's interesting, I mean, with this video, the production values are -- I mean, they're parts of it which are like a film. I mean, and forcing this man, who's about to be killed to sort of wander through screens that are highly orchestrated shot from multiple camera angles. It seems like with each new killing they're trying to up the ante, whether that's because they need to try to grab the world's attention because beheadings are no longer shown. And then they have a young boy shooting two Russians, Russian prisoners and now death by fire. I mean, it seems like they continue to kind of push the production values and up the ante of brutality.
BENNOUNE: It's a kind of atrocity pornography, Anderson. I mean, it's truly horrifying when you watch the video and you see them really relishing in inflicting suffering deliberately on another human being and in showing that suffering to the world, including you know, unfortunately some members of his family may see that.
And I think that is very deliberate. That's meant to inflict shock. That's meant to inflict terror. One of the greatest things that we can do is refuse to be, in fact, terrorized, to respond in a resolute and effective and thoughtful way at the same time. You know, I don't believe much in revenge but people are calling for revenge today. The best revenge is in fact to dismantle, to defeat these movements, to discredit their ideology and not emulate them. I would really hate to see Jordan rushing into rapid executions. I think there needs to be thoughtfulness in the response.
COOPER: Karima Bennoune is great to have you on. Peter Bergen as well. Colonel Rick Francona as well.
Up next, more on that failed suicide bomber that we've talking about, her story and how it may end very shortly. Now that the Jordanians many are calling for retribution.
And later in the wake of the home grown terror attacks in France and there were -- there was another attack on that three soldiers. That is in the Jewish Center that we'll tell you about. Also those arrests in Canada. We'll look a lot more closely. And
what's been done to make sure the next kind of incident does not happen here in the United States.
COOPER: Tonight's breaking news, the Jordanian government is not confirming report in several global media outlet that the failed suicide bomber ISIS has been trying to get back, would they executed at dawn there which is just a few hours from now.
Her story in many ways, merits the rise of the kind of over the top brutality, their first sole light with the beginnings of Al-Qaeda in Iraq and it's blood thirsting leader, Jordanian as Peter Bergen pointed out named Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
More now from Brian Todd.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): November 2005, Sajida al- Rishawi and her husband are part of the band of suicide bombers who attack three hotels in Amman, Jordan.
By all accounts al-Rishawi had little or no romantic connection to her husband. They'd married just days before to make it easier for them to get into Jordan from Iraq and sneak into a wedding celebration in Amman.
In a televised confession, al-Rishawi described the mission.
SAJIDA AL-RISHAWI, FAILED SUICIDE BOMBER (through translator): My husband took a four and I took another one. There was a weeding in the hotel. There were women and children.
My husband executed and detonated his belt. I tried to detonate mine but I failed.
TODD: Al-Rishawi run from the scene and was later captured. Her husband and their cohorts killed nearly 60 people in three locations. Sajida al-Rishawi have reportedly been motivated purely by revenged.
NIMMI GOWRINATHAN, PROFESSOR, COLIN POWELL SCHOOL CITY COLLEGE OF NEW YORK: We do know that one of her eldest brothers was very close to an Al-Qaeda commander and was given charges some part of the region. And that her first husband was also a part of Al-Qaeda and two other brothers were killed. All killed by Americans in the operations in Iraq.
TODD: One of her brothers who was killed was top lieutenant to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the murderous leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, which morph into ISIS.
Analyst say that brother might have been of the same rank and been closed to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the current leader of ISIS. MATTHEW LEVITT, WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: She's
probably not a great Jihadist operative, don't think they need her as a leader. There's no evidence that she has leadership qualities. What she is -- is propaganda piece. But she is someone you put in front of the camera and she says the right things and she praises ISIS for even nine years later, never forgetting about her.
TODD: Brian Todd CNN, Washington.
COOPER: Let's dig deeper now. We're joining by former extremists who now battles extremism. Maajid Nawaz, director of Quilliam Foundation and author of "Radical, my journey out of Islam extremism," which is a remarkable book.
Maajid, I mean, this latest -- just act of horror by ISIS, the production values, the Barbary of it. They really trying to race the horror with each new murder it seems.
MAAJID NAWAZ, DIRECTOR, QUILLIAM FOUNDATION: Yes absolutely, Anderson. This is a race to the bottom when it comes to gruesome depictions that they're showing. If you remember, they first had a mass beheading and then showed a child purportedly killing somebody and now we see them burning a man alive on camera.
But really, we have to think about why they're doing this and I think that actually, though Peter Bergen is correct. They will lose a large part of the Jordanian audience. What they're really doing here is competing with those radicals travelling from across the world who's deciding whether they join Al Qaeda or ISIL. And so it's a competition between people who what already primed to be jihadist, is to who's going to claim the crown on Jihadism. And so in that sense, ISIL attempting trap existing terrorists. And this source of video is really do help them in that propaganda. That's why I applaud your show for not showing the video.
COOPER: It's interesting though. I mean, you know, Al Qaeda in Iraq, you look back, you know, which is the group that eventually morphing into ISIS. Al-Qaeda in Iraq was set to lose a lot of support among Muslims in Iraq because of how brutally they treated Muslims in the areas that they controlled. Do you see support for ISIS eroding because of this? I mean, you talked about in Jordan but elsewhere as well?
NAWAZ: Yes. I mean, I think there's a polarization now. So where is Muslims, those Muslims that, you know the faction of Muslims who would previously being sympathetic to any type of violence to express Islamism, are forced to take a stand against ISIL because of the atrocities that they commit.
But as I said, what I think ISIL are really competing for, the foreign fighters and they have a choice as to whether they join Jabhat al- Nusra the Al Qaeda affiliate in Syria or they join ISIL.
And all the evidence so far, by the way, including recently even CIA assessments are indicating that ISIL are remaining very successful in attracting the foreign fighters. And their aim will be to secure the territories that they currently control in Iraq and in Syria. And to raise money through the taxation system they put in place and to build their state with the combination of children and that their offspring that they are training as terrorists from within. And the Iraqis and Syrians, who let's not forget have been brutalized by acid done, commissioner of mass atrocities, who are already primed for violence to recruit those and to recruit the foreign sigh fighters. I mean, that's since they are succeeding in attracting more people to join their ranks.
COOPER: I mean, in all these murders that we have seen, I don't think I've seen any by fire. I might be wrong with that but I don't think I've personally seen them. Is there significance to the use of fire?
NAWAZ: There is as an ancient theological dispute between traditional Muslim, is to whether the use of fire is permissible or not. But I think, that you know, long ago, with the actions of al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian who found the Al-Qaeda in Iraq, Jihadist have departed in many instances from a lot of the traditional consensus around, you know, how one should behave in war. Because they got this self-casual justification, which is, like for like retaliation.
And so in this case, you know this man, the hero that they've killed, Moaz al-Kasasbeh was a pilot and I imagine they would have taken the justification that bombs incinerate people that they've land and therefore way going to incinerate him in like for like manner.
COOPER: And throughout the video, I mean, that it very much sort the beginning of video sets up the justification for their actions later on in the video. I mean, this sort of makes the argument, that exact argument that you made. Does it, I mean, do they seem to be desperate at all, I mean, after now months of this of coalition air strikes, do they seem as strong as they were before to you?
NAWAZ: Well, yes. Let's not forget they've lost the battle against the Kurdish forces on the ground at the Kobadi. And so again ISIL really, it's supply of oxygen is the foreign fighters come in. Who let's not forget as I said what already Jihadist since so it's appealing to their target audience. It is an act of desperation but I've realized one thing that their most successful asset they have is this propaganda which is why it's so important that we don't glorify that propaganda, we don't do the work for them by showing that propaganda.
But instead we do work to challenge the ideology that lines behind it. And I think, you know, in that sense, the Jordanians is now will be much better primed to do that work. But it also begs the other question which is, we really do need troops on the ground to defeat ISIL and it's going to have to be Arab troops, America, the U.K., a good providing air cover. But ultimately as the Kurds provided it unless there are troops on the ground, we stand no chance of defeating ISIL.
COOPER: It was also really interesting to me, and I mentioned this already, to hear a report in Jordan saying, the people in Jordan were surprised that ISIS would do this against another Muslim. I mean, nobody should be surprised. We have seen this time and time again.
NAWAZ: Nobody should be surprised and also frankly, it's as bad as it happens among Muslim. It's just as bad. So you know, that's really not really, it's not really a point for discussion but of course, as you've said, Salafi Jihadists have been killing Muslims for many -- since their inception and the reason for that is of course they excommunicate anybody that disagrees with them. And anybody who fights with non-Muslims against them is of course, immediately excommunicated as well.
COOPER: Yes. Maajid, I appreciate you being on. Thank you.
COOPER: Good thing we dig deeper next.
Pamela Brown who sat down today for a rare and exclusive interview with the FBI's head of counterterrorism talking about the possibility for terrorism here in the United States.
And later, Gary Tuchman takes us to Ashland, Oregon, a hot spot in the anti-vaccine movement, talks to parents about their doubts about the official line on vaccinated children.
COOPER: In news, Jordan's King Abdullah heading home, cutting short his trip in Washington after meeting late this evening with President Obama.
That and charges today against three Canadians including a recent convert to Islam. An alleged supporter of ISIS raised the inspector once again of citizens becoming radicalized and traveling to Syria, at least two of these three Canadians dead and coming back motivated to kill allegedly.
It tops the list of concerns for many in counterterrorism including FBI's man in charge of it, he rarely talks to the media but he spoke today with our Justice Correspondent Pamela Brown.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Have you seen people in the U.S. coordinating to launch an attack?
MICHAEL STEINBACH, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, FBI'S COUNTERTERRORISM DIVISION: We have seen individuals collaborate, of course.
BROWN: In the U.S.?
BROWN: So are there ISIS cells in the U.S.?
STEINBACH: There are individuals that have been in communication with groups like ISIL who have a desire to conduct an attack, yes. BROWN: That are living in the U.S. right now?
BROWN (voice over): Michael Steinbach, the head of the FBI's robust counterterrorism division, says in many cases, these groups are a few individuals who are loosely associated.
STEINBACH: I think the term supercell is overly simplistic. I think the threat is much more complicated, much more diffuse.
BROWN: A frightening reminder of that type of threat, the deadly Paris attacks. French citizens Cherif and Said Kouachi trained by terrorist and their associate Amedy Coulibaly went on separate rampages.
(on camera): Are you concerned in light of what we saw in Paris that there could be an American here in the United States who may have had similar training as the Kouachi brothers who perhaps we didn't have visibility on?
STEINBACH: Of course, I am. I'm worried about individuals that we don't know about that would have training. I'm worried about individuals that just see what happened in Paris or in other countries and want to follow with similar acts.
BROWN: Could you tell us how many Americans are right now fighting training with terrorists overseas?
STEINBACH: I won't discuss numbers. I won't discuss specific numbers, I'll say that the FBI in partnership with the intelligence community, we track several buckets of individuals.
BROWN: Are you not telling us a number because you're not willing to or because you don't feel confident that we know all the Americans who have come and gone?
STEINBACH: The answer is both. I'm not telling you a number because I don't want to tell you a number and I'm for sure underestimating the true number. We know what we know, but there is a number that's greater than that that we don't know, just like our European partners.
BROWN: There was a case Abu-Salha, the Florida man who went back and forth to Syria undetected.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are coming for you!
BROWN: He ended up dying over there when he was fighting alongside al-Nusra. Are there other similar cases like that where we've sort of lost track of Americans going back and forth?
STEINBACH: I would be lying to say that there's not. Of course.
BROWN (voice over): Steinbach admits U.S. law enforcement alone cannot stop a deadly attack on the homeland. STEINBACH: In the majority of cases, we know that someone recognizes
that change in behavior, that radicalization, that family member or friend chooses not to intervene and by not getting involved, the story ends in a very similar fashion and that's death.
COOPER: You know, Pamela, it's fascinating to hear that interview. And we heard reports of ISIS turning to recruit American teenagers, for instance. Where are the parents in all of this, in these kind of cases? Do they know?
BROWN: That's one of the first questions I asked, Anderson. When he told me ISIS is using social media to luring American teens as young as 15 years old, he said that they've seen the wide spectrum. They work cases where they've seen parents who are oblivious, parents who are in a state of denial, and get this, they have even seen parents who actually encouraged their children to link up with terrorists. He says, in those cases, they hold the parents accountable, but he made it very clear that the FBI needs the parents' help in stopping this because ISIS has been very effective in pushing out a false narrative on social media, making it seem like it's Disneyland over there in Syria. He says that is a narrative that's being sucked up by kids in the U.S. And it's very concerning.
COOPER: Pamela Brown, I appreciate it. Thanks very much. Joining us now is former FBI and CIA Senior counterterrorism official, Philip Mudd. Philip, good to have you on the show. You know, what do you make of the fact -- when the FBI, the officials there doesn't want to discuss the number of Americans fighting and training with terrorists overseas.
PHILIP MUDD, FORMER SENIOR OFFICIAL FBI AND CIA: One other thing you've got to think about, is in my old life you divided the world into two buckets. What you know, which I was confident about. If you get an individual, let's say, in New York or Chicago who was in direct contact with an al Qaeda member, and we saw that when I was at the bureau, you can put a lot of intelligence resources against that person. E-mail, phone, informants. What you worry about in that situation is not what's showing up on your desk every morning because we had coverage of people like that and I was confident that the coverage was good. What you worried about is the people like those kids we talk about from Denver, 15-year-old girl. They don't contact an al Qaeda member. They don't book a ticket to Syria. They don't talk to family or friends about radicalization. In a country of 330 million people, how do you find somebody like that?
COOPER: Right. I mean how do you keep track or discover somebody like that, somebody who's just inspired by groups like ISIS, but hasn't actually reached out? Doesn't have a social media profile about it. I mean - how do you even begin to try to track that?
MUDD: Not well. There's a couple of things you can do. The first is what Pamela mentioned. You can hope that family or friends will tip you off. We had circumstances where that happened. Most of what I witnessed in cases we closed was that the family didn't know. This is not just similar, for example, for a 15-year-old drug user in this country. If the person -- if that kid gets good grades in high school, how are you going to know? The kids who are radicalized, I witnessed, a lot of their families didn't know, in some cases, not even until that kid traveled overseas on a ticket that kid acquired without the parental consent.
So the family might be able to help. If you don't get that help, you can look at triggers, things like a kid who might be on a web site that has violent tendencies. That kid starts to talk about jihad, for example, in Syria and Iraq, uses words to talk about violence, but just think tonight, Anderson, how many people in this country are on web sites where somebody is talking about that video of the dead Jordanian? If you think in a democratic society, you can filter all that and find the right people, it's just not that easy. There's no easy way.
COOPER: Yeah. Phil Mudd, I appreciate your being on. Thanks.
Up next, the measles outbreak. A closer look at why some parents ignore the science, repeatedly ignore the science -- the guidelines of getting their kids vaccinated. We'll hear from some of those parents tonight.
Also ahead, the late Whitney Houston's 21-year-old daughter is moved to a different hospital after she was found unresponsive face down in a bath tub. What we now know about Bobbi Kristina Brown's condition, what was learned about her life in social media, coming up.
COOPER: An outbreak of measles, a disease, as you know, that was eliminated in this country 15 years ago thanks to vaccines, continues to have major repercussions tonight, including the shutting down of a day care center in southern California. 102 people in 14 states contracted the disease in January. The outbreak is still spreading. Most of the cases are in California including an infant who attended a day care center with 24 other kids. The day care center that's now shut.
In this case, the infant is younger than a year old, therefore, too young to be vaccinated, but the anti-vaccine debate that's taking center stage, politically and in communities throughout the country. Gary Tuchman met with parents in Oregon who think they, not the government, should decide which, if any, vaccines their kids should receive and when they should get them.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jennifer Margulis and her husband have four children, ages five to 15.
JENNIFER MARGULIS: I have chosen to vaccinate my children. I have not chosen to vaccinate my children on the current CDC guidelines.
Ashton (ph) built this barn all by himself.
TUCHMAN: Lynn Barton and her husband have two older children. Her opinion about vaccinations.
UF: I think there are too many and they're given too early.
TUCHMAN: Both families live in Oregon, which has one of the country's highest rates of families who do not follow CDC guidelines on immunizations. And they live in and near the picturesque town of Ashland, which has a 26.4 percent rate of kindergarteners exempted from vaccinations, according to our local pro-immunization group. And that's why in some circles, this town is known as the least vaccinated city in the U.S.
The reputation of this town of 20,000 people has become so well known, that officials from the Centers for Disease Control came here to hold the town hall style meeting several years ago to ask parents why they were opting out of vaccinations.
Jennifer Margulis, who is an author and freelance journalist, was one of the parents at the meeting. She believes in some vaccinations for her children, but not others. Measles, mumps, and rubella, MMR, is one she does not believe in. Her children haven't received yet.
(on camera): Does it bother you that perhaps you're endangers other children in your community by not getting your children vaccinated with MMR?
MARGULIS: So, I'm not endangering people in my community because my children are incredibly healthy. They have robust immune systems and they aren't spreading ...
TUCHMAN: But how do people know to trust you and trust everyone else who doesn't vaccinate?
MARGULIS: So, how ...
TUCHMAN: How do we take your word for it?
MARGULIS: Maybe what they should do, is they should give me a test and say, so did you breast-feed your children, and for how long, and how often do your kids get sick and when do you take them to the doctor?
TUCHMAN (voice over): Lynn Barton also believes in some, but not all vaccinations. Her son got both of his MMR shots, but her daughter only one. Because she says a daughter got sick from it. Barton is skeptical of much of what the overwhelming majority of scientists say about vaccines, that they are safe and effective.
(on camera): Why do you have reasons to disbelieve them?
LYNN BARTON, CRITIC OF CDC VACCINE PROTOCOL: Because I have been studying this issue for 20 years and I know that there are many, many people who don't agree.
TUCHMAN: There's a possibility you're doing some selective study, and this is what you want to believe and not necessarily scientific truth. BARTON: I can only do what I can do, but if you're saying, do I
always accept what someone in authority tells me and obey that? No. I don't think that it's my obligation to do that.
TUCHMAN (voice over): And regarding the endangering of other children who are around unvaccinated children, she is not shy about declaring.
BARTON: I reject the premise that I have a moral obligation to put my child's health at risk for the sake of someone else's child.
TUCHMAN: Blunt in what the CDC considers increasingly dangerous talk. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Ashland, Oregon.
COOPER: Joining me now our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta and Seth Mnookin, author of "The Panic Virus: The True Story Behind the Vaccine -- Vaccine Autism Controversy." He's also associate director of MIT's graduate program in science writing. Sanjay, parents in Gary's report laid out some of the biggest concerns for parents choosing not to vaccinate, one of which is that there's just too many shots and they are given too early. To that, what do you say? What does science say?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean we've heard that circulating quite a bit. The number of shots and people sort of equate that saying, is this too much of an insult to a child's body and to their immune system? And the answer is that it's not, and in fact, if you look over time, you'll find that the amount of vaccine that we actually give has decreased. I have got a graphic, I want to show you this, Anderson, quickly if I can. Take a look at this. The graph sort of on the left side reflects the amount of vaccine, the amount of antigen that we used to give dating back to 1980. Close to 3500 is the number there and it's come dramatically down over the last, you know, 30, 40 years. And so we give a lot less vaccine despite the fact that the number of vaccines, number of actual shots are higher, the amount of load, a vaccine load we give is much, much lower and still you see the autism rates have continued to go up.
So we don't give as much vaccine as we used to and that idea that this is an insult to the immune system of a young child, it just doesn't bare out.
COOPER: I mean you would think, if the vaccines had a correlation to autism, then as the amount of the vaccines that are given dropped so precipitously, the amount of autism would drop, but it's the complete reverse.
GUPTA: That's why I find this graph really telling. You know, sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. We don't know why the autism rates have gone up. We don't know what causes autism, but take a look at that graph. And that shows you another reason, another argument as to why vaccines are not associated with autism.
COOPER: Seth, you saw another parent in that piece say bluntly, that she thinks the science on vaccines is a fallacy, that there's the darkness study that showed among people who distrust vaccines, hearing a debunking of the risks, hearing scientific evidence actually makes them less likely to plan on getting the vaccine. It basically backfires. So how do you combat that?
SETH MNOOKIN, AUTHOR, "THE PANIC VIRUS": Well, I think what's interesting about that is, and that's of course, true for a lot of conspiracy theories, that the more evidence you have showing that the conspiracy is not true is interpreted by people who believe it as further evidence that they're right. I think one thing that is good to remember when we are talking about this is that the people who believe in the conspiracy are a minuscule, minuscule percentage of the parents who are not vaccinating and the parents who are not vaccinating are actually a tiny percentage of parents overall. We still have over 90 percent vaccine uptake in the country. So we do have some parents obviously who are skeptical, but most of those who are skeptical are not diehards, are not the ones saying I refuse to believe science. They're parents who may have heard that there's a supposed controversy here and are responding out of concern, but haven't looked into the issue and haven't really done the research.
COOPER: And you find that when you actually talk to parents and say, well, actually, you know, it's not as many parents as you think who are not giving their kids vaccines, that actually helps convince parents, will actually, OK, it's actually not as big a controversy as some would make it.
MNOOKIN: Certainly. In my conversations with parents when they find out that nine out of ten of their peers are vaccinating, there's a sense of relief. I think because of how much this controversy is covered. And I understand, obviously, why it's covered, and I wrote a book about it, but because of how much it's covered, oftentimes people get the sense that this is a situation where you have 70 percent of parents vaccinating and 30 percent not. The reality of the situation is medical and scientific opinion is unanimous about this. And most parents in this country go with what their doctors and what scientists tell them is the best way to protect their children.
COOPER: Sanjay, I was interested to hear from the mom in that piece, who say, well, if my kids are incredibly healthy and my kids, you know, my kids aren't a danger to anybody. A, what do you say to that? And I know you also just wrote an editorial and just posted it at cnn.com. I just tweeted the link to it as well. Tell me about that as well.
GUPTA: Well, you know, first of all, I mean it's great that the kids are healthy. It doesn't mean that their kids still cannot contract measles. It is a very contagious virus, if they come in contact with someone who has it, they can still get measles and that would be, you know, that's difficult, obviously, if you're unvaccinated, your likelihood goes up exponentially.
COOPER: So no amount of breastfeeding that this mother did when her kids were young is going to impact whether or not they actually can get measles from somebody else?
GUPTA: What she is referring to, is that when in utero and during breastfeeding, you can pass on some of the anti-bodies, some of the virus fighting cells through breast milk into the body and those can last sometimes, those can confer some protection, but it's not forever, it's not the same as a vaccine, which is, in fact, teaching your immune system to make those antibodies themselves. I should point out as well that, you know, this idea of herd immunity, that when you vaccinate somebody, you're not just protecting that child, but protecting other people around them, they say for measles, you need to have at least between 83 and 94 percent of the population vaccinated. Seth just mentioned that 90 percent are vaccinated across the country, but there are pockets, as in Gary's piece, where 25 percent of the population is not vaccinated. There are schools in San Diego where 52 percent of the children are not vaccinated and it's those pockets that potentially create such a problem.
COOPER: Right. And again, check out the editorial on cnn.com. Sanjay, thank you. Seth Mnookin, I appreciate it. You can read Sanjay's entire op ed at cnn.com/health.
Up next, the latest on Bobbi Kristina Brown, where she is being treated tonight, and also we are learning about how she spent the year since her mom died.
COOPER: The daughter of the late Whitney Houston has been moved to a new hospital. Bobbi Kristina Brown is now at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta. She was put into a medically induced coma after she was found unresponsive in a tub full of water in her Georgia home over the weekend. Bobbi Kristina grew up surrounded by fame, of course, and the 21-years old, like many young people, has been active on social media. Alina Machado reports.
ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All across Bobbi Kristina Brown's social media footprint, signs of a 21-year old looking to the future, but who's still very much haunted by the past. On January 29th, just two days before she was found unresponsive in a bathtub, she tweeted about turning 22 in two months. Adding, "I can't wait for the music and much more." There's talk about staying fit and pictures of her with Nick Gordon, whom she tweeted about marrying last year. But there's also plenty on her late mother, Whitney Houston. Earlier this month, a tweeted selfie with the words, "Miss you, Mommy, so much. Loving you more every second." This past summer, she posted a picture on Instagram showing a portrait of Houston tattooed on Gordon's forearm, with the caption, "the tribute to you, mommy. We love you so much, my lady."
MIKE CUMMINGS: She's never came into my place and not talked about her mother.
MACHADO: Mike Cummings owns Inksomnia, a tattoo studio in Alfredo, Georgia, he created Gordon's tattoo and appeared on the lifetime reality show "The Houstons on Our Own."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Think about something happy. MACHADO: This was, Cummings says, Bobbi Kristina's first tattoo, her
mother's initials forever inscribed on her wrist.
CUMMINGS: We had to stop -- several times, because they were crying. It was pretty emotional.
MACHADO: And just two weeks ago, Cummings snapped this picture when Bobbi Kristina stopped by to get another piercing. He said she seemed happy, was talking about an upcoming album and possibly getting another tattoo. But the third anniversary of her mother's death still weighing heavily on her mind.
CUMMINGS: I'm devastated. I hate it. I hope she's OK. I know a lot of people have been asking about suicide and we've always answered the same thing. I don't believe she was trying to kill herself. Not for a second.
MACHADO: What caused Bobbi Kristina to become unresponsive inside her home, still unclear, but what seems clear from her thousands of tweets, she remains a daughter whose grief has not diminished with time.
COOPER: Alina Machado joins me now from Atlanta. So, she's hospitalized now at Emory. She received -- we received a statement tonight, on behalf of singer Bobbi Brown. Bobbi Kristina's father from his attorney. What did he say?
MACHADO: Well, that statement reads apart, "We're currently investigating the events that led to the hospitalization of Bobbi Kristina. To correct earlier reports, Bobbi Kristina is not and never has been married to Nick Gordon. We continue to request privacy in this matter." Now, a source close to the Houston side of the family also told us that Bobbi Kristina and Gordon never married and we have not been able to find any records of that marriage despite what Bobbi Kristina herself has said in social media, Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Alina, thanks very much. A quick programming note, for those of you expecting to see "CHASING A KILLER: INSIDE THE MCSTAY FAMILY MURDERS", please tune in tomorrow night at 9 p.m. because the breaking news out of Jordan, we're going to be live throughout the next hour with the special edition of "360." Reaction to the release of the video apparently showing the brutal murder of ISIS held Jordanian pilot.