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Jordan Pilot Murdered; Failed Suicide Bomber; Juror Dismissed

Aired February 03, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

We begin with the breaking news. Just an absolute stomach-churning, barbaric piece of video that's just been posted online by ISIS supporters. This Jordanian pilot, Moaz al-Kasaesbeh, captured by ISIS when his jet went down and thrust into the center of hostage trade talks, appears to have been burned alive while trapped in a cage. It is incredibly difficult to imagine a more brutal murder than a beheading with a dull knife, but this video shows ISIS may have found a new and even more disgusting way to kill.

Let me be 100 percent transparent here. CNN has decided we will absolutely not show any of these appalling pictures out of the respect for the families and to avoid showcasing this brutal ISIS propaganda. But I will tell you, I have chosen not to watch this video. I have several colleagues who have watched it, who have described to me exactly what they've seen and they say it is extremely, highly produced, very sophisticated. You see this pilot first speaking into the camera. He's then walked in front of a line of armed ISIS fighters. And then, in the next frame, it shows him standing in this cage. Two ISIS terrorists light some kind of fuel-soaked line, which then quickly trails toward the cage. He is then heard screaming over and over as he is engulfed in flames.

Joining me now, Jomana Karadsheh. She is live for us in Jordan.

And, Jomana, let's just begin with the reaction you are starting to hear from this young man's family, including specifically talking about revenge.

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. Brooke, our team just returned from this hall, this area where the tribe of Moaz al- Kasaesbeh had been gathering for the past couple of weeks where people were showing up for solidarity there with the family and they hundreds of people showed up there and they were chanting that they will sacrifice their blood and their souls for Moaz al-Kasaesbeh and also calling for revenge.

We also heard from the Jordanian government and the Jordanian military, Brooke, and they say that Moaz al-Kasaesbeh was killed last month, on January the 3rd. Now it's not clear how the Jordanian government knows this, but they are saying that this video was just released, but he had been killed last month. And they say that this is why they had been, over the past few days, as you recall, insisting on that proof of life they have been demanding from ISIS for any possible prisoner swap deal that may have gone -- that they were discussing.

And the government spokesman, Brooke, saying that those were dirty games by ISIS, bringing up the Jordanian pilot in the past week of negotiations for the release of the Japanese hostage, Kenji Goto, saying that they were dragging him into this, although he had already been killed and the Jordanian government knew all along that he was killed and that's why they insisted on their demand.

This evening, Brooke, this country is in mourning. It does feel like it's a very somber mood in Amman and across Jordan. Of course, this man was seen as a national hero by many. And we are hearing what the Jordanian military and government are promising tonight. They say that his blood will not be wasted, that it will not be shed in vain and that they will retaliate. And the revenge, Brooke, they say, is going to be in the same level of the Jordanian tragedy. Perhaps the message here that Jordan will continue to fight in that coalition, fighting ISIS, despite so much speculation about where Jordan stands right now after this has happened. There has been so much domestic pressure on the country saying -- many here in Jordan saying that if Jordan had not been part of this coalition, that many view as not their war, then Jordan would not have been in this situation.

BALDWIN: Jomana Karadsheh, thank you so much, in Jordan for us.

And we also are reporting that King Abdullah, who's been in Washington, D.C., will be cutting his trip short to return home. He recorded something for the people of Jordan that will be airing on Jordanian TV in the coming hours.

Meantime, moments ago, we heard from President Barack Obama getting his raw reaction to what he calls the barbarity of ISIS.

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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know I just got word of the video that had been released. I don't know the details of the confirmations. But should, in fact, this video be authentic, it's just one more indication of the viciousness and barbarity of this organization. And it, I think, will redouble the vigilance and determination on the part of a global coalition to make sure that they are degraded and ultimately defeated. And it also just indicates the degree to which whatever ideology they're operating off of, it's bankrupt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: President Obama just a little while ago.

Gentlemen, let me bring you in. CNN global affairs analyst David Rohde, who was held captive for seven months after being kidnapped by the Taliban, he's joining me, as is retired Army Lieutenant General Daniel Bolger, author of "Why We Lost."

Welcome to both of you. David, let me just begin with you. I mean it's one thing when you talk

about murders, to know that ISIS has decapitated multiple hostages. But to have a 27-year-old man walked past ISIS fighters, doused in obviously some kind of flammable liquid, placed in a cage and lit on fire, why?

DAVID ROHDE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I think in their world, and no one - none of us really understand it, this is, they think, an effective tactic. Their - you know, when I was in captivity, there was a sense that, particularly in the west, we fear death, that we wanted to enjoy the pleasures of this world and that if they sort of killed enough Americans, we would essentially give up.

What's different about this is that this is a Jordanian pilot. This is a fellow Muslim. Obviously most people that ISIS kills are Muslims, but this kind of brutality, it's not clear, but this could be a turning point. I think this will backfire on them.

BALDWIN: How do you mean?

ROHDE: Well, I just think that this tribe that he's from in Jordan is horrified. What ISIS wants us to be is the west versus ISIS. What's really happening is sort of really a civil war, if you will, for the future of the Middle East and sort of who is the true Muslim or not. And there's many moderate Muslims, I think the vast majority of Muslims are moderate, that will be absolutely horrified by this, and this will, I think, work against ISIS.

BALDWIN: I mean it explains, general, if - and, listen, we weren't at all, obviously, privy, as members of the public, to any sort of negotiations, if that is even a word that ISIS would use, you know, back and forth as Jordan said, you know, listen, we would be interested in swapping. We would like to have our Jordanian pilot back. In exchange, we may be willing to give you back this woman, this failed suicide bomber, who's been on death row in Jordan.

And now knowing, according to at least Jordanian TV, that she - that he was killed, this pilot was killed back on January 3rd, talking about backfiring in terms of any future discussions with ISIS. Don't you think this speaks volumes, general?

LT. GEN. DANIEL BOLGER, U.S. ARMY (RETIRED): You know, I think it does because what it's telling us, Brooke, is that ISIS is -- they're not a legitimate organization. They're terrorists. And having a discussion with them, like you're talking to the government of France or Italy or Japan, it's just not going to happen. They've shown with -- in the case of this Jordanian pilot, how they're going to treat their captives. And in my view, that indicates that normal dealings with them is going to be very difficult, and I think it should redouble the coalition's efforts to take these guys out.

BALDWIN: And, general, let me just stay with you because I was listening to something Barbara Starr, our Pentagon correspondent, was telling us, which was just speaking about the Jordanian military, I mean this is a smaller group of individuals. It is incredibly honorable. And this will hit the Jordanians especially hard losing this 27-year-old.

BOLGER: Absolutely. Moaz al-Kasaesbeh is an F-16 fighter pilot. Whether in the Royal Jordanian Air Force or in our Air Force, I mean that's an elite group of men and women who are carefully trained and highly motivated. And I might mention, King Abdullah himself is a military guy. He's a graduate of the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst in Great Britain. He understands what it means to serve. And he's serving his people now as king.

So this is -- when they talk that they're going to avenge this pilot's death, they're not kidding. They're going to go in there. They're going to get the best intelligence they can and they're going to go after ISIS and make it hurt.

BALDWIN: You know, on that note, and, David, this is for you, you know, we've gotten two statements. One Jordanian government spokesperson saying, and those who were doubting the Jordanian response to this evil, we will show them the proof. And from the spokesman for the general commander of the Jordanian armed forces, part of the statement, the armed forces mourns the martyred hero and emphasizes that his blood will not be wasted and its punishment of those who assassinated Moaz will be a revenge in the same level of the Jordanian tragedy.

ROHDE: What's important here and what Jordan's biggest asset is its intelligence service. They are excellent at this. They played a major role in the killing of Zarqawi in Iraq, the earlier version of ISIS. It was a tip that they obtained. They can infiltrate Syria. They can do things that frankly the CIA can't do. And if there's a commitment from Jordan's military and its intelligence service to really penetrate ISIS with their intelligence service, that's a very effective tool. Again, that's why this is such a big moment. More effective than what we can do, to be honest.

BALDWIN: To your point about this backfiring, huge ramifications. Stay with me. Actually, both of you stay with me. I have more to ask of both of you in terms of the response, both from Jordan and also from ISIS.

But coming up next, we have to take a closer look at this failed suicide bomber, this woman, and why she means so much to this terrorist organization.

Plus, moments ago, the judge dismissing a juror in the trial of Aaron Hernandez in Massachusetts. The former NFL star accused of first- degree murder. Hear what she apparently did but did not reveal. That's ahead.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

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BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Back to our breaking news. Until just days ago, Jordan had demanded that ISIS release its fighter

pilot in exchange for this female failed suicide bomber on death row in Jordan. Now that pilot, Moaz al-Kasaesbeh is dead, burned alive, a month ago, in this gruesome scene apparently captured by ISIS video. But one of the questions that remains here is why did ISIS want this particular woman? Brian Todd has some answers.

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BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): November 2005, Sajida al- Rishawi and her husband are part of a band of suicide bombers who attacked three hotels in Amman, Jordan. By all accounts, al-Rashawi had little or no romantic connection to her husband. They'd married just days before to make it easier for them to get into Jordan from Iraq and sneak into a wedding celebration in Amman. In a televised confession, al-Rishawi described the mission.

SAJIDA AL-RISHAWI (through translator): My husband took a corner and I took another one. There was a wedding in the hotel. There were women and children. My husband executed and detonated his belt. I tried to detonate mine, but I failed.

TODD: Al-Rishawi ran from the scene and was later captured. Her husband and their cohorts killed nearly 60 people in three locations. Sajida al-Rishawi had reportedly been motivated purely by revenge.

NIMMI GOWNINATHAN, COLIN POWELL SCHOOL, CITY COLLEGE OF NEW YORK: We do know that one of her eldest brothers was very close to an al Qaeda commander and was given charge of some part of the region and that her first husband was also a part of al Qaeda. And two other brothers were killed, all killed by Americans in the operations in Iraq.

TODD: One of her brothers who was killed was a top lieutenant to Abu Musab al-Zarkawi, the murderous leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, which morphed into ISIS. Analysts say that brother might have been of the same rank and been close to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the current leader of ISIS.

MATTHEW LEVITT, WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: She's probably not a great jihadi operative. I don't think they need her as a leader. There's no evidence that she has leadership qualities. What she is, is a propaganda piece. What she is someone you put in front of the camera and she says the right things and she praises ISIS for even nine years later never forgetting about her.

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BALDWIN: Let's continue this conversation. Standing by, I have CNN global affairs analyst David Rohde, who again was held captive for seven months after being kidnapped by the Taliban. And also with me, retired Army Lieutenant General Daniel Bolger, author of "Why We Lost."

And, David, let me just turn to you. You know, we were talking about this in commercial break and you expressed the notion that I had somebody recently texting me saying, hang a second, this could be King Abdullah of Jordan essentially calling the bluff on ISIS. He damn well knew, probably, that this pilot had been killed. And so this perhaps was his way of going ahead and saying, this is my way of galvanizing the people of Jordan, who have not been so sure on this U.S.-led coalition war, to get them behind this war on terror.

ROHDE: It does look like the Jordanian government handled this very well. They probably did know. I mentioned earlier they have tremendous intelligence assets.

BALDWIN: Yes.

ROHDE: And so they're very smart. They said, OK, we will release this woman. Give us proof of life, you know, of this pilot, knowing that he was probably dead. And I think, again, they've handled this very effectively. The question is, how does the revenge, you know, get carried out? You mentioned during the break this woman, you know, they could execute her.

I would be very surprised if they do that. I think they're very clever about this. They'll move very slowly. They'll turn tribes in Jordan and Iraq and even Syria against ISIS and be very methodical about how to make them pay a price for this.

BALDWIN: General, would you agree with David? I mean do you think that Jordan, just given everything you know about Jordan, that they would not execute this failed suicide bomber, this Iraqi woman who's on death row in Jordan? Or do you think the opposite, that in the wake of this brutality, that they would expedite her execution?

BOLGER: No, Brooke, I think David's nailed it. The Jordanian effort, there's going to be a public effort. You'll see some bombing missions and things like that, that will produce footage and produce some damage to ISIS targets. And then there will be the part we don't see, the mobilization of the tribal groups, the use of Jordanian intelligence to carry out a long-term effort to start tearing the insides out of ISIS. It will be - it will be a coordinated effort and the Jordanians do know what they're doing.

BALDWIN: What do they do with this woman, then, if anything?

BOLGER: Well, Brooke, I think they're going - I think they'll hold her. And I think they'll -- she's on death row right now, so they've already gone through the court system and all that. But she serves a Jordanian purpose as well because she's a rallying point as being a representative of ISIS. And as long as she's there and not executed, that prevents ISIS from using more propaganda against them. The Jordanians are playing a very long game and I hope the United States is smart enough to join in.

BALDWIN: You know, we're just turning this video around. This is video. This is in from Jordan, just around, of people shouting "revenge, revenge." And that's the thing, David, because if you have this huge population that has been not so sure about this U.S.-led war, we don't want to fight this U.S. fight, then you have one of their own, this Arab who was killed by ISIS. How does -- and we're waiting to hear from King Abdullah. How does he tell Jordanians, we have to continue this fight, or is that not his message?

ROHDE: Well, it's his message and it's his decision. It's one of the critical opportunities now is to not, you know, send in American ground troops. Let this struggle inside the region and inside the religion play itself out. Quietly back moderates. We do have allies here. Jordan is an ally. Help them the way, you know, they want. Maybe just quietly, you know, weapons and money, but let them do the fighting. That's the strategy that will marginalize and eliminate extremists. And we really do have allies in the region. And, again, this is an opportunity. The king himself knows how to rally the Jordanian people. You know, we don't -- the White House, you know, doesn't know how to do that. So, again, it's a very big moment, I think.

BALDWIN: We'll wait to hear from him. General Bolger and David Rohde, thank you both very much. We're going to watch this very, very closely.

Of course over the -- the course of the next couple hours, more on our breaking news. We'll look at the complicated foreign policy questions ahead and how does the U.S. reacts to this new ISIS video.

Plus, new complications today in the murder trial of former Patriots Star Aaron Hernandez. Hear why this one juror today has suddenly been dismissed. A live report from outside that Massachusetts courtroom when we come back.

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BALDWIN: Well, we now know that a juror has been dismissed in the trial of Aaron Hernandez. You know he is the former New England Patriot accused of orchestrating this deadly shooting of his friend Odin Lloyd in the summer of 2013. Monday, a winter storm pushed back the proceedings, and now problems with one of the jurors, a female juror, has caused further delays. CNN's Miguel Marquez is live outside of that courthouse in Fall River, Massachusetts.

Miguel, what happened?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, keep in mind, this is day two of testimony in a trial that may last 10 weeks and already we have a juror dismissed. This sounds like a woman who was pro-Aaron Hernandez, essentially. The judge, after a lengthy discussion this morning, first as a side bar, then dismissing, throwing everybody out of the courtroom, hearing evidence and testimony from individuals who came in. One of them may have been a state trooper.

This woman, the judge said, was -- wanted to be on this case, had made specific references and talked about the case over the last two years, specifically telling someone that the absence of a weapon made it hard for any jury to come to a conclusion or to find him guilty. Also that -- saying that she had attended more Patriots games than she had indicated on the juror questionnaire and saying that the recollections of her conversations with certain individuals just were not supported by the facts. And in order to get a fair trial and make sure that this woman didn't taint the rest of the jury or the process, got to kick her right out.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: So then what happens next? I mean minus this juror, do they pop in an alternate or am I - I mean is anyone talking about a mistrial?

MARQUEZ: Well, this is -- no one's talking about a mistrial. That was the concern on both sides if this juror were to stay. They have now 17 jurors, 12 women, five men. At the end of this, once all the testimony is heard, they will select who will actually go on that 12-person jury. They will then deliberate. We don't know that until the end of the trial and then they will move on.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, Miguel Marquez, thank you.

Next here on CNN, much more on our breaking news. How will the United States react to this new barbaric ISIS video appearing to show the murder of the Jordanian fighter pilot standing in a cage and burned alive. We will take you live to the White House.

Plus, any moment King Abdullah of Jordan, who happened to be on a preplanned visit in Washington, D.C., right now, he is expected to speak as crowds, as you see on the right-hand side of your screen, are coming together in Jordan. They are calling for revenge.

Stay right here. This is CNN's special live coverage.

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