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Defense Department Briefing; ISIS Video Shows Jordanian Pilot Burned Alive

Aired February 03, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


QUESTION: You mentioned the brutality, the barbaric nature of this act.

Do you think that could backfire against them, in terms of creating more homegrown capability to go against them?

REAR ADM. JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Backfire in terms of hurting their recruiting efforts?

(CROSSTALK)

KIRBY: I think it -- it's hard to say.

I do think an act like this, as all of their murderous acts have been, I don't -- they're not -- they're certainly not, as I said, the behavior of a winner.

And they're certainly not, in our view, going to further advance any success by them. I do think that this will be a setback eventually. Now, will it possibly attract some young -- disenfranchised young men to the cause? It very well might.

And I think that they believe that there is propaganda value. Obviously, they think there's propaganda value in not only doing this, but videotaping it and then posting it online.

But, in the end, it just shows the utter corruption, the debasement of who they are as an organization. And, yes, it will -- I think that, at least regionally, it will backfire on them.

QUESTION: Admiral, since the capture of Lieutenant Kaseasbeh, did you have any information about his whereabouts or make any effort to try and release him?

And second question, do you have any concerns that the killing of Kaseasbeh will have any negative implications on the popular support for the war on Da'esh and more specifically...

(CROSSTALK)

KIRBY: Popular support here in the United States?

QUESTION: Abroad, basically in the region, in Jordan. And do you still have the commitment of the Jordanian government to be part of the coalition against ISIL?

KIRBY: Well, I won't speak for the Jordanian government.

QUESTION: Did you receive any new commitment?

KIRBY: Since this video? None that I'm aware of.

But I would let the Jordanian government speak for itself and for the Jordanian people. That's not my place.

I'm not aware that we had any information at all in terms of specificity about where he was being held. We had been working closely with Jordanian officials since he was captured to do what we could to try to help locate him.

I'm not aware that there was any success in that regard. So there would have been no ability to try to mount an overt rescue opportunity.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) support in the region?

KIRBY: What this will do to popular support -- you're already seeing video out of Amman about the reaction there by the Jordanian people to this.

I think this goes to Jamie's (ph) question. I do think that this has the potential to backfire on them. I absolutely do believe that in the region. But, again, I think it's important for everybody just to take a couple steps back and look at who these guys are, what they're about, and the seriousness of the threat.

We have been saying this for a long, long time. And we have also said it's going to take a while to get at the ideology, which is the real center of gravity here. You're not going to do that through bombs and airstrikes. That doesn't mean the bombs and airstrikes aren't going to keep happening. They are. Nothing is going to change. Nothing is going to change as a result of today and this video about the resolve that we, the United States military, have or the coalition has more broadly.

QUESTION: Since you mentioned -- if I may have a follow-up, since you mentioned the videos from Amman, we actually on Al-Jazeera have different, other videos as well.

We had figures from the region where Kaseasbeh is -- was born and people saying, well, why are we in this situation? This is not our war in the first place. This is the U.S. war.

How do you respond to that?

KIRBY: I didn't see those videos.

So, let me just more broadly respond to the idea that this is the U.S.' war. It's not. I think a coalition of 60 nations proves that it's not, that we're not the only ones involved in this, in trying to get rid of this group. That said, you know, we also believe in this country in a diversity of

opinion and certainly can allow for the fact that others may have a different view about what this murder means or should mean going forward. All I can do, again, is speak for the United States military. That's my job. And what I'm telling you is the United States military is going to stay committed to this.

Phil.

QUESTION: Admiral, I know you don't like to get into body counts or nose counts in this fight against ISIL, so I won't ask about specific numbers, unless you're interested in talking about them.

But there were reports and discussions over the past couple days that ISIL is getting more foreign fighters as part of its recruiting effort than the U.S. and the coalition are killing there. Is that accurate? And can you give us any sense of what the difference is between their ability to add to their pool of combatants and the Americans' and others' ability to take those guys off the battlefield?

KIRBY: You're right. I'm not going to get into body counts with you, Phil, or throw out numbers, because, as I have said before, I don't think that's a helpful metric.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

KIRBY: That's OK.

But what I can tell you is, we do continue to attrite their forces. In other words, they're still suffering battlefield losses every -- almost every day as airstrikes continue and as ground operations continue, particularly up in the north.

And it's true that they continue to recruit, back to Jamie's question. I think one of the things that we believe they believe they're getting out of these very public, grisly murders is more recruits. So we know that they have the ability to continue to generate young men that are attracted to this group and this ideology.

And that's going to be a long-term problem. I can't sit here and tell you -- and I saw the press reports and I made a few phone calls before I came out here, as you might think I would. I can't tell you with any specificity that those numbers in the press reports are accurate. I can't refute them either.

We do know that they are capable of bringing more people to the fight. And we have been saying that from the get-go as well, Phil. You know that, which is why, again, we are going to stay committed to this for the long term. And it is going to be a long-term fight. So I don't know what the balance sheet is.

And I suspect, quite honestly, that that balance sheet changes every day, because this isn't -- this isn't -- they're not an army where you raise your right hand, you take an oath, you get an I.D. card, and off you go to boot camp. These are common street fighters. And they come and they go. And sometimes they stay for a while. And sometimes they stay for a day and they leave.

And so I know ISIL has -- they have a fluctuating manpower pool. What we have seen, and a better judgment of the strength of this group, is their behavior. So we have seen them change the way they operate on the ground. They're hiding more. We have seen them not travel around in convoys, not as much as they used to.

So they're not as agile as they once were. We know that they have lost literally hundreds and hundreds of vehicles that they can't replace. It's not like they have got a supply chain out there and a defense contractor building trucks for them. So they got to steal whatever they want to get. And the number -- there's a finite number. So, we know that we have hit them there.

We also know that they aren't -- the main source of revenue for them used to be oil. Now we assess that it's no longer the main source of revenue. Now, I can't give you the dollar figure now. I know that. But we know -- because I know that was the next question coming.

But we know that oil revenue is no longer the lead source of their income in dollars. So they are changing. And I know, and we have talked about the fact that they're largely in a defensive posture. They're not taking new ground. Let's talk about Kirkuk.

Over the weekend, they mounted an offense on Kirkuk. They were out of there before the second day was up. They were pushed out. And they're not in Kobani anymore. So, they're losing ground. They're more defensive. They're more worried now about their lines of communications and supply routes.

This is a different group than it was seven months ago. I'm not saying they're not still dangerous. I'm not saying they're not still barbaric. But they're different. Their character, their conduct, their behavior is different. And that's a sign of progress.

QUESTION: Do other members of the coalition here, especially Turkey, need to do more to stop the flow of foreign fighters to ISIL?

KIRBY: Well, we have talked about Turkey and their contributions. We're grateful for those contributions, particularly on the train and equip side.

Every member of this coalition -- and there are more than 60 countries -- is contributing in ways that they and their people deem most appropriate. There are some countries that are only contributing financially, not militarily at all, others that are doing both, others that are -- you know, that are much more focused on kinetic military support.

Every country brings something to this. It's a coalition of the willing. And that means we have to be willing to let these nations contribute in ways that they deem most appropriate.

QUESTION: What is their lead source of income?

KIRBY: They get a lot of donations. They also have a significant black market program going on.

But what I can tell you is that we now know that oil is no longer the lead source of revenue. I don't have their tip sheet with me.

QUESTION: How long has it not been the lead source of revenue, do you know?

KIRBY: I don't know.

QUESTION: And one other question. You talked about the coalition, what they're willing to do and how the U.S. has to be accommodating to that. Has Jordan continued to fly its F-16s over Syria since December 23, when Lieutenant Kaseasbeh was taken? Or they have they at any point suspended it? And have they given any indication that they will not be willing to...

(CROSSTALK)

KIRBY: Those are great questions for Jordan, Nancy.

I don't know what their air tasking order is for Jordan. I would direct you to the joint task force or to CENTCOM for what countries are flying. They keep track of that. I just don't have that handy with me. But, really, this is something for Jordan to speak to.

QUESTION: Admiral Kirby, you laid out...

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right.

It is just 10 past the top of the hour here. You have been watching this daily briefing from the Pentagon, where admiral John Kirby asked a lot of questions on this 27-year-old Jordanian fighter pilot and his brutal murder.

Let me just begin there. If you're just joining us, we're covering this breaking news here. This is just the latest development in this war on ISIS. This is what has happened.

The U.S. ally vowing revenge after the release of this brutal video that appears to show this captured Jordanian pilot, the man hailed as a hero in his own country, burned alive while trapped in a cage. Jordan has tried to negotiate with these terrorists in this hostage swap to try to get this pilot back home. But they now believe he was actually already dead when those back-channel talks were taking place.

We're now seeing, and we have video for you of these crowds shouting they want revenge. This is in Amman, Jordan. They want revenge. Take a look, chanting, "In blood, in spirit, we will protect Jordan."

Also, this statement from a Jordanian armed forces spokesman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAMDOUH AL-AMERI, JORDANIAN MILITARY SPOKESMAN (through translator): His blood will not be wasted, and the punishment of the tyrants of this earth who assassinated this martyr, Muath, and those who supported him, there will be punishment at the same level of the entire Jordanian family that have been suffering and they will be punished eventually.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: As for this video of this fighter pilot, CNN has decided not to show any of these appalling pictures from the video that has been posted online.

We can tell you it's an extremely highly produced video. I have chosen -- I'm not seeing it. But a number of people here at CNN have. They describe it to me as you see this 27-year-old beaten with a black eye. He's seen standing in this cage. And then you see these two ISIS terrorists light some kind of fuel-soaked line, which then quickly trails toward this cage.

He is then heard screaming. He's clutching his face and his head as he's engulfed in flames.

First, let's go to Jim Sciutto, our chief national security correspondent.

Beginning with the timing of this video as King Abdullah is in Washington, D.C., we now know he's cutting his trip short. He's released a statement. Jim, what did he say?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The statement is not out yet. We are aware that he has a statement coming, however, before he leaves the U.S. here and that timing not insignificant, the fact that ISIS, a group very aware of impact, how to maximize their impact and their terror, releasing this video showing the death of this pilot on the day that Jordan's king is in Washington, its partner in this coalition a possible connection.

We don't know it. But this is kind of group that would do that to maximize their message. I will tell you, Brooke, having seen this video as well, it is sickening. And I have watched a number of these with previous cases, for instance, James Foley's, the American's beheading prior, all heart-wrenching and sickening and brutal.

This one raising it, if even possible, to a new level, almost a sort of horror movie kind of level, imagining the circumstances of putting someone in a cage and lighting them on fire. In addition to that, as you say, highly produced as well throughout. It looks like a broadcast television news story in some ways with the graphics they use.

But it also shows a degree of knowledge, Brooke, which I thought was interesting here. They showed -- and who knows how we confirmed this -- that his jet, when it flew on this mission on Christmas Eve in December was refueled in the air.

It then lists the other kinds of aircraft that were with him during this mission. His was an F-16. There were other F-16s, an F-15, one of them from UAE. And it also shows or claims to show the kind of bomb that he dropped, a laser-guided GBU, as it's known, showing knowledge and sophistication in addition to production value as they put this out and then build up to that horrible death at the end, and really a disgusting piece of propaganda.

BALDWIN: We know as we have been reporting on in the last week or so that Jordan has been willing to negotiate with ISIS. They have had this Iraqi failed suicide bomber on death row back in Jordan.

They, of course, have known that this Jordanian pilot has been in ISIS captivity. And so they were willing to do this swap. Now, we have been reporting that Jordanian TV is now saying that this pilot was killed back on January 3. Do we know yet how they knew that?

SCIUTTO: Here's the thing. I have spoken to U.S. intelligence officials who have said that there was uncorroborated information, unverified information that the pilot had been killed before the release of today's video.

But that was unverified. You get in intelligence bits of information like that that you can't call conclusive. Now, as to how Jordan determined that he died on a particular date a month ago, as opposed to making a judgment that he died a number of weeks ago, it's not clear yet. And when I speak to U.S. officials, and you heard Admiral Kirby say the same thing just in the briefing there, that U.S. officials were not aware of a particular date or evidence that January 3 was the day.

But, again, Brooke, Jordan has means. They do their own analysis. And they have their own -- possibly their own assets who could come to that conclusion as well. But this may be based on an analysis, as opposed to a hard time stamp. In other words, Jordan may have made a judgment that that's the date, without knowing -- you know, without having a time stamp that specifically says it is January 3. That's a possibility as well.

BALDWIN: Got it. Jim Sciutto, thank you so much.

We were just talking about King Abdullah. I was asking you if we knew what he said. Well, now just handed a piece of paper. Let me just read for you.

The king says in this televised statement the pilot's killing is an act of -- quote, unquote -- "cowardly terror by a deviant group with no relation to Islam."

We will hear from the king of Jordan next.

Stay with us. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The timing of all of this, ISIS releasing this incredibly gruesome video of this 27-year-old Jordanian fighter pilot burned alive in a cage, all the while the king of Jordan is in Washington, D.C. He's now cut his trip short before heading home. But, first, here he was speaking in Washington moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING ABDULLAH II, JORDAN (through translator): Brothers and sisters, the citizens of Jordan, the sons and daughters of this nation, with all sadness and tragic, we received the news and also anger, the news, the martyrdom of the hero pilot, Muath al-Kaseasbeh -- may God have mercy on his soul -- at the hands of this ISIS organization, the coward terrorist group, this gang, the criminal gang that has no relation to our noble religion or any connection to our noble religion.

This brave pilot was killed in defense of his religion and his nation and for his country and followed those who proceeded him, the martyrs of this nation, who have gave the life and their blood for the dear -- for dear Jordan.

We stand today with the family of the martyr, the hero, Muath, and with our people and our armed forces in this great tragedy that is the tragedy of all Jordanians and the tragedy of Jordan.

And in those difficult moments, it is the duty of all the sons and daughters of Jordan to stand together in one rank and show the true mettle of the Jordanian people facing these difficulties, that it will not only give us but resolve, determination, and unity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: King of Jordan there speaking in Washington before heading home.

Joining me now, Paul Cruickshank, CNN terrorism analyst and co-author "Agent Storm: My Life Inside al Qaeda and the CIA," and Buck Sexton, CNN political commentator and former CIA counterterrorism analyst.

Let's just first begin with what we just heard. I was jotting down hearing from the king referring to the pilot as a hero, a martyr, and then referring to ISIS, a coward terrorist group.

Anything jump out at either of you, listening to him?

BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The Jordanian government is a very close ally of the United States. And the king has been a trustworthy ally for some time.

It's heartening in a sense to hear that there are people who are saying that they want vengeance, they want to take action as a result of this. And certainly, I think the Jordanian government, that would be their impulse as well.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But did you really hear that in what he said?

SEXTON: Well, no, because there also are pressures inside Jordanian society right now that don't want further involvement.

BALDWIN: Right.

SEXTON: Look, this war is already Jordan's problem, very much so. The third largest city in the country is a refugee camp. They are on the border of what is an increasingly brutal and violent conflict, what, 250,000 estimated to have been killed so far.

So, there are a lot of Jordanians who are going to say, we want to stay out of this, at least from a combat perspective. Others are going to say, no, this is too far. Finally, we have to drop more bombs and get more involved.

BALDWIN: Do you want to jump in?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: I think this is going to strengthen the support for King Abdullah in Jordan, his decision to involve himself against ISIS, airstrikes against ISIS in Syria.

This pilot came from a very prominent Jordanian tribal family. He was a Sunni. There's a huge amount of anger right now in Jordan. I think ISIS has miscalculated here in a big way. This is going to strengthen the resolve of the Jordanians. It's going to strengthen the resolve of other regional Sunni powers.

And I think that they're going to play a more significant role now in these airstrikes, in these efforts inside Iraq and Syria. And Jordan has very significant intelligence capabilities inside these countries from a historic point of view. They played a significant role back in 2006 in that U.S. airstrike which killed the founder of ISIS, Abu Musab al Zarqawi.

I think Jordan's going to step up these efforts in the days and weeks ahead.

BALDWIN: Obviously, listening to Rear Admiral John Kirby just a beat ago at the Pentagon, and he was asked over and over, and the word he kept coming back to is backfire. This will backfire.

When you see a group such as ISIS -- it's one thing to decapitate hostages, another to take it to this level of burning a man alive inside of a cage. Backfiring for ISIS, don't you think?

SEXTON: Well, that certainly would be the hope.

The sadism of a beheading, it's hard to get worse than that, but ISIS has managed to do it here. ISIS' predecessor, al Qaeda in Iraq -- we just mentioned Zarqawi a minute ago. Zarqawi comes from Jordan. There are some connections that should be made here.

BALDWIN: Connection to the would-be suicide bomber?

SEXTON: Connections that should be made with regard to how they overstepped, essentially, and the Sunni community turned against them. And that was really the beginning of the end for al Qaeda in Iraq in Iraq, which now this is now a successor organization. BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

SEXTON: So, the question is now, does this kind of -- this sort of mutilation, this burning video, actually push -- does this -- and we mentioned tribes just a minute ago as well.

(CROSSTALK)

SEXTON: Will the tribes now see this and say, you know what, we can't be passive anymore even, we actually have to openly fight against the Islamic State?

The Islamic State has been trying to get ahead of that, by the way, though, by actually eradicating the tribes, any tribes that don't go along with them. So, they have seen what happened in the past and are trying to I think in some ways inoculate themselves from that kind of an uprising.

Hopefully, that's the case. Hopefully, the Jordanian government decides they want to double down, as do other Sunni Arab allies in the region. I'm not certain that will happen. I think it's more likely that you might see some of the tribes along the Iraq-Syria border say if this is how they're going to treat fellow Muslims, if this is how they're going to operate, particularly also with the negotiations, which are all just a sham, maybe now there will be a moment where there could be a changing of the guard.

BALDWIN: It was a total sham. It was a total sham. The notion that, you know, whether it was exactly January 3 where, according to Jordanian TV, they had killed this pilot and allowed Jordan to talk with them -- and who knows what really happened, the inner machinations of those talks.

Jordan wanted that proof of life, understandably so, of this pilot, and for reasons we now see, they didn't get it.

You have seen the video. We talk so much about furthering the propaganda and the grislier the videos, the more enticing it is for some of these people in the world to join this fight. Do you see that happening with this?

CRUICKSHANK: To some degree, I think the most hard-lined supporters that this will electrify them. They have this real anger.

And so it does touch a nerve with them. But I think there will be many, even some sympathizers of ISIS who are pretty shocked at this video. This could turn off some of these extremists even in Europe and the Arab world from wanting to join this terror organization.

(CROSSTALK)

CRUICKSHANK: But this is very deliberate from ISIS.

It's designed to be horrible, designed to terrify. They put out a lot of these videos in Iraq to sort of weaken the resolve of the Iraqi military. And they saw that it kind of worked because the Iraqi military turned and fled in Mosul, even though they outnumbered ISIS to a very significant degree. So they're trying to use this same strategy to weaken the resolve of powers of the people of the region. I think this is likely to backfire, however.

BALDWIN: Quick final question to you, Paul. You have seen so many of these videos over the years. Have you ever seen anything like this?

CRUICKSHANK: This is the most appalling, horrible, terrifying video that I have ever seen. They focus on his suffering in minute detail. There are a lot of close-ups.

This was sort of stage-managed to terrorize in every way possible. It's like a scene out of the worst horror movie you can imagine.

BALDWIN: Paul Cruickshank and Buck Sexton, thank you both very much.

Next, Jordan's king, as we have shown you, he's here in the United States, at least for now. We played you what he said in reaction to this horrible, horrible video. We're now looking at how the U.S. may react to this murder and how the world should respond. I'm joined by Jake Tapper and Fareed Zakaria on those angles next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)