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Brutal ISIS Images Spark Media Debate; Senate Hearings Under Way for Defense Secretary; Aaron Hernandez Murder Trial Continues; Oil Prices Bounce Back

Aired February 04, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: The brutality of ISIS has sparked a debate for media outlets around the world. Should any portion of these videos be shown on television? We at CNN are not showing pictures of ISIS killing the Jordanian pilot. There's no need to spread such ugly propaganda and we figure you pretty much get burning someone to death is brutal without us having to show you any pictures.

But other media outlets feel differently. I'm not saying whether they're right or wrong, they just chose another way. For example, Fox News decided to show a still picture of the pilot on fire. Here's why from anchor Bret Baier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS: The reason we're showing you this is to bring you the reality of Islamic terrorism and to label it as such. We feel you need to see it. So we will put up one of these images on your screen right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. And then they kept that image up for quite a long time. Let's talk about that with CNN's senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter.

Good morning, Brian.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

COSTELLO: It is a difficult decision because, you know, I'm into sharing information with my viewers because I believe they have a right to know what's happening in the world and they have a right to know how brutal ISIS is. But, of course, CNN made a very different decision than Fox. And these are difficult decisions, right?

STELTER: They are. There's the balancing act that you're describing between that journalistic instinct to want to share information, all information, and not shy away from it, versus the reality that there are certain images that are so gruesome, so disgusting and so offensive to the audience that we have to be sensitive about what we show and what we don't show.

And I think Tony Maddox, the executive in charge of CNN International, explained it pretty well on our own air yesterday. Let's play a sound bite from him about the decision making.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY MADDOX, EXECUTIVE V.P., CNN INTERNATIONAL: With something like say James Foley, which is where this was starting, it was important to establish to the audience what had actually happened. We hadn't seen those images before and we needed to do it. With the Japanese hostages, it was proof that they had the hostages and they made the demand. Neither case would we have showed them at the point of death. And then this most recent one, which is just truly horrific. There was absolutely no editorial justification for showing it at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STELTER: One way to think about this, Carol, is, I don't think television networks like CNN are in the business or should be in the business of showing people's death up close. It is one thing to show a plane crash. And, you know, lots of networks show plane crashes and we're showing a plane crash today. But to see a person's face and their body as they are dying is a separate decision.

And I would also say it's a matter of a medium, Carol. We're on television, which is a push medium. Television is pushed to you (ph). You don't always have a choice about what you're about to see. Whereas on the Internet, you pull it. You actually click the video. You choose to watch it. And I'm of the view that you should be able to watch this video if you want to, on the Internet, and make the choice to do it yourself. I made that choice and it was shocking to me to see how long he was alive and to see him suffer in that way. I thought it was important to see that because you have to wonder what the people that were running those cameras were thinking, and whether they have any ounce of humanity left.

But that said, to push it to people on television or on the front page of a newspaper, that's a very different decision. I think that's why we're seeing Fox News as the only network in the United States that has chosen to show any of the images.

COSTELLO: You know, Brian, I watched it too and I regret watching it, but I felt differently than you.

STELTER: Do you?

COSTELLO: I felt that it was such a cowardly act. I mean here are these men. This man is in a cage. He can't escape. He's helpless. And then there are all these people with their face covered, like carrying out these brutal, cowardly acts. I thought it made them look cowardly. Now I know that then --

STELTER: For sure, yes.

COSTELLO: I know that -- I know that ISIS uses these -- uses videos as propaganda tools, right? That's why I just -- I think Tony Maddox is right, there was no editorial reason for showing the --

STELTER: Yes. Well, that's why Fox is coming under quite a lot of criticism this morning.

COSTELLO: Like why should we spread this.

STELTER: Yes. I mean Fox News has put the entire video on its website. And it's getting a lot of criticism online already on Twitter this morning because it is a propagandaist (ph) videotape. And there are reasons why ISIS decides to film this horror and then publish it online.

Glen Beck, by the way, has made the same decision. He has a smaller cable channel, an Internet channel, called "The Blaze." He has also decided to show these pictures. He said it's because it's, quote, "time to wake up, time to recognize what we're up against, look it square in the eye and call it evil." But I think the flipside of that is, there's lots of news out there --

COSTELLO: So, beheadings weren't brutal enough?

STELTER: Well, right. You know, that gets to it. And I think they're at a point at which a news editorial decision turns into a political decision. And that's an interesting issue about this as well. What we've heard a lot on the right from conservatives who say that people like President Obama are denying the reality of Islamic terrorism, is that people aren't -- people like President Obama aren't willing to look it square in the eye and see it for what it is. We've heard that political argument and I think at times these news editorial judgments are turning into political judgments as well.

COSTELLO: I hope that's not true, but I have a sneaking suspicious it is. Brian Stelter, thanks so much for the interesting conversation. I appreciate it.

STELTER: Thanks.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Ashton Carter heads to Capitol Hill as hearings to confirm him as the next secretary of defense begin. But could a lack of firsthand military experience be an issue?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: All right, as I told you a little earlier, confirmation hearings have begun for Ashton Carter. He's the man President Obama wants to succeed Chuck Hagel as defense secretary. See the chairman of this committee, Senator John McCain, giving his opening statements to the committee and to Mr. Carter. And I'll shorthand some of what he said for you already.

He expressed his condolences for the Jordanians because of the pilot's brutal death at the hand of ISIS. He also said that President Obama and the administration is not doing enough to defeat ISIS and he plans to send a full letter to President Obama expressing those thoughts. And as you can see, he's now continuing on with his comments.

A little bit more about Ashton Carter for you. He's known as an independent thinker. He's sitting right there looking at John McCain. Carter is a master, it's said, when it comes to budgets and weapons acquisitions. But with ISIS and numerous other threats, what will a Defense Department under Ashton Carter look like?

Joining me now is Colonel Danny McKnight. His actions in Somalia provided the inspiration for the film "Blackhawk Down."

Good morning, sir.

COL. DANNY MCKNIGHT, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: First, your impressions of Ashton Carter.

MCKNIGHT: Well, when I look at his background, I see, of course, he's a deputy secretary of defense before he was named to be the next secretary of defense. And that background seems to be filled with things associated with budgets and things of that nature. So I assume, as his deputy job as the secretary of defense, he was very focused on the military budgets and things of that nature. And I don't think the military budget was very well taken care of when we had to cap the pay raise for our military to 1 percent again this year as signed off by the president when it was never supposed to be less than 1.8. So I'm sort of bothered by that perspective right there. I don't think he has a great background for the defense of our country and especially with what we have going on right now. Now, that's my personal --

COSTELLO: And by background, colonel, by background you mean he doesn't have a military background? He didn't serve in the armed services?

MCKNIGHT: That is correct. That is -- that is a big deal to me if you're going to be the secretary of defense. Chuck Hagel had that. I didn't agree with everything he did, but I thought a lot of things he had the right idea about and I think that's because of his background.

COSTELLO: Well, you could argue, too, that Chuck Hagel sort of burned out and was not a successful secretary of defense despite his service in Vietnam.

MCKNIGHT: That is correct. I agree. I say that he did a few things that were good, but there were a lot of things that weren't done. And, yes, I think he got burned out probably fighting the process some and he decided to step down.

COSTELLO: Right, because, as you well know, politics is involved in everything in Washington, including the military. And I just want to read something that "The Boston Globe" wrote about Ashton Carter. They have an excellent article this morning about his background. It says, "over the past three decades, Carter has moved fluidly between the halls of the university and the Pentagon corridors." He teaches, by the way, in the Ivy League. "He was nicknamed 'the deliver' for his ability to get the job done. Every few years or so it seems he grows impatient with the more languid pace of the academy and he hungers for the political arena."

He himself has mixed feelings about public service. In his autobiography Carter wrote that "working in Washington is a little bit like being a Christian in a coliseum, you never know when they're going to release the lions and have you torn apart for the amusement of onlookers." So he appears to be a tough cookie and his nickname is "the deliverer" because he's known for getting things done. That's a good thing, right?

MCKNIGHT: Well, yes, if he's going to get things done that are the right things. And, you know, that political arena, like you said, is quite often focused in a totally different direction. And now he is in the big seat being the secretary of defense, not the deputy secretary of defense. And so is he going to be willing to make the hard right decisions that we need at that level? It's not easy. So the question is, will he deliver, as you just said that he's called, or is he going to be politically oriented and go along with what the commander in chief is directing him to do? I don't know, but I'm concerned.

COSTELLO: What will be his -- what will be his biggest challenge, colonel?

MCKNIGHT: I think his biggest challenge is what you've been talking about this morning, how is he going to act as a secretary of defense if he's confirmed and how is he going to act towards fighting ISIS? That is the number one issue, in my opinion, for our Defense Department today. And I don't think, and I'm sure they're limited in many ways by the commander in chief's guidance and stuff, we should be doing more.

And you talk about the lady that is supposedly held captive. Well, if that's the case, we should be doing more to find it out. And I hope we are. And I think maybe, you know, in the right arena we are. But that should be the number one issue because ISIS is not going to stay over in the Middle East forever. They're going to go to other places. And one of the places they're probably going to try to go is the United States of America.

COSTELLO: Senator John McCain said in this hearing he doesn't feel the Obama administration is doing enough. So just a list of what we are doing, we're conducting these airstrikes over Iraq and Syria sometimes. Supposedly we're training these moderate rebels in Syria to fight hand to hand with ISIS terrorists. We do have a coalition that includes Middle Eastern nations. What more do we need to be doing?

MCKNIGHT: Well, the first thing is it was mentioned earlier about the UAE and their backing out I believe in December. That shows a concern right there because they were bothered because a pilot from Jordan, who we know unfortunately was brutally killed yesterday, that he -- they backed out because they didn't want that to happen. Well, we've got to get a better commitment from those people.

And we've got to I think make a stronger commitment. Just being associated request drones and airstrikes and using advisors on the ground to train the other people -- even when they're trained by us, when it comes face to face with the bad guys like ISIS, are they really going to step up and do what I think they should do? They won't do it like we do. I think, unfortunately -- I'm not a big believer or supporter, but I know what's necessary, and it's going to mean putting American soldiers on the ground, face to face, eyeball to eyeball with the bad guys called ISIS. And we need to do our part and lead the way.

COSTELLO: So you think that Americans should have boots on the ground again in Iraq?

MCKNIGHT: I think if we're going to get ISIS removed, we have to put boots on the ground. I'm not saying we've got to put 50,000 or 100,000 or anything of that nature. We have the right kind of forestructure. We have the right forces that can do the job. But we've got to do it before it carries on too far, because the longer we wait, the harder it will become. And I do believe that at some point the way we're going to beat them is look them dead in the eye and take care of business.

COSTELLO: Colonel Danny McKnight, thank you so much for your insight. I appreciate it.

MCKNIGHT: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: As I told you before, the confirmation hearings have begun for Ashton Carter, who may or may not become the next Secretary of Defense for the United States. And you can see, this is Senator Joe Lieberman. And you might be asking, hmm, did he not retire from public service? Well, he's back at these confirmation hearings to introduce Ashton Carter because the two are besties. He's a family friend. And of course he's doing a little more than introducing Mr. Carter, but we'll keep you posted from the important things that are being said at this hearing.

In other news this morning, we're expecting another tense day at the Aaron Hernandez murder trial. Day four picking up where Tuesday left off, testimony from the victim's girlfriend. The defense's cross- examination of Shaneah Jenkins begin just moments ago. Shaneah Jenkins broke down on Tuesday, later describing the moment Hernandez consoles her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHANEAH JENKINS, ODIN LLOYD'S GIRLFRIEND: Came into the dining room, asked me if I was OK. Put his hand on my shoulder, kind of rubbed my shoulder and told me he had been through this death thing before. It will get better with time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: That testimony starting late after high drama, Hernandez losing a possible ally when one juror got the boot. It was very strange.

Let's talk about that. Criminal defense attorney and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson is here. Good morning. JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: So I'm wondering how this juror got admitted to the jury in the first place.

JACKSON: It's a wonderful question. And what's interesting is -- high profile case, major resources by Aaron Hernandez, a defense team of multiple lawyers, very skilled, very thoughtful, very good at what they do, and it goes to show how difficult the voir dire, that is, the jury selection process really is. Because the jurors just tell you what you want to hear or do they tell you like it is? And apparently in this case it was a telling of the juror what they wanted to hear.

COSTELLO: So to me, this juror sounds like a big fan of Aaron Hernandez and she was eager to serve on the jury and she was all for him.

JACKSON: That's right. And we call these the stealth jurors, OK? And apparently she had been speaking about the case very early on when it happened and really knew things a juror shouldn't know or the judge admonishes them and says don't pay attention to evidence that's excluded like the two double homicides, or the double homicide that he's accused of, like the murder weapon that wasn't found, and a number of things this juror had access to and information on. In addition to, on the questionnaire, she says I don't really go to Patriots games that often. Comes to find out she's a real big Patriots fan and certainly does go. And so the end result, though --

COSTELLO: And she was wearing a Hernandez jersey under -- no, I'm just kidding.

JACKSON: And pretty much this juror was saying how difficult it would be to convict in the absence of the weapon. But the end result is they did find out who the juror was. They had a 90-minute hearing, Carol, to determine exactly what she did know. And the fact is they excluded her. That's why you have alternate jurors. This he had six. Now there are five alternates left.

COSTELLO: So if you don't answer truthfully on the questionnaire, do you get in any sort of trouble?

JACKSON: Of course it's at the option of the prosecution to go after you for perjury. It could send a deterrent effect to other jurors to be forthcoming and honest, but generally it does not happen. You want to encourage people to participate in the process. You don't want to chill their participation. So usually they will not go after a juror for perjurying themselves.

COSTELLO: So let's dive into a little bit of the testimony, right? So the victim's girlfriend is on the stand, very emotional. She says Aaron Hernandez, the suspect in this case, came to comfort her after Odin Lloyd's death. That's chilling.

JACKSON: Well, this is a big witness. If you remember, the defense is playing up the issue of no motive. This guy, Aaron Hernandez, has everything -- $40 million, a new baby. Why would he do this to his friend, to his friend, to his friend? Well, guess what, Carol? This witness, Shaneah, is saying they weren't so friendly after all. So that's something the defense is going to have to rebut on cross examination, this playing up of why would he do it to a friend when the fiancee is saying, or Odin Lloyd's girlfriend is saying they're not so friendly.

In addition to that, what's missing here? A murder weapon is missing. But guess what Shaneah says? She says that my sister, Aaron Hernandez's fiancee, received all of these phone calls and text messages, was acting suspicious. Leaves the house, asks to borrow my car, and takes something in a bag out of the house. What's the inference? It's the gun. Compelling testimony.

COSTELLO: Compelling testimony. And it will continue probably throughout the afternoon. Joey Jackson, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

JACKSON: Pleasure, Carol, always.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, how is this for pain at the pump? Oil at 200 bucks a barrel? Oh come on, Christine Romans.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I can tell you, Carol, that overnight you're paying five cents more a gallon for gas. I'll tell you if all of those good days of low gas prices are over right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Well, it couldn't last forever. Gas prices jumping five cents overnight. Oil prices rising 20 percent over the past three days. Can you imagine -- and this is what some are predicting -- that oil could soon be $200 a barrel.

Our chief business correspondent Christine Romans is here. People just went out and bought giant SUVs.

ROMANS: I know. That's a protection from the OPEC secretary-general, the secretary-general of OPEC. I will tell you the Saudi oil minister recently said we're never going back to $100 oil again. So there are big opinions out there about what's going to happen in the very big oil market, Carol. So I would cut through that noise and say you have to look at what's happening right now.

Right now, oil prices have had this bounce. They're back above $50 although they're under a little bit of pressure today. You can see that bounce. Look at how -- that's a crash in oil prices. They were due for a bounce here. That means gas prices are bouncing. Last night, you saw gas prices jump to $2.11 on average across the country.

But compare that with a year ago, Carol. That's still a lot lower than it was a year ago. Some say you could see gas prices continue to tick up, but mostly you're going to stay well below year ago levels. And here's why: oil supply is bigger than oil demand to the tune of 1 to 1.5 million barrels per day. As long as that supply and demand balance there stays, you're going to continue to see pressure on oil prices.

So I wouldn't get too worried about the $200 predictions just yet. People are still buying their SUVs. But at least for now oil prices seem to have stabilized above $50 a barrel. That's been good for the stock market. You're going to pay a little bit more for gas.

COSTELLO: Yes, because you mentioned yesterday that actually gas prices rising a little was actually good for the economy although everybody struggles with that.

ROMANS: The crashing oil prices were a sign of dangerous things happening in the economy. So you want to see some stabilization here. I will also say I think speculators in the market are covering their short positions. That tends to really jerk up prices faster, just as it tends to push them down faster too. So that magnifies the moves. But we are creating more oil, getting more oil out of the ground than we're using. As long as that continues, oil be under pressure.

COSTELLO: Christine Romans, thanks as always; I appreciate it.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts now.

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