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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Jordan Vows to Hit ISIS Harder; TransAsia Plane Crash Caught on DashCam

Aired February 04, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Soon after ISIS telegraphed the revolting murder of a Jordanian fighter pilot, Jordan takes its revenge, hanging two jihadist prisoners. Is this the tipping point? What will ISIS and Jordan do next?

The desperate search for survivors continues. This accident captured on dash cam video. A plane with 58 passengers smashing into a bridge and plunging into a river. The freeze frame shots from a second TBBS (ph) video, equally terrifying.

And it is sister against sister in the high-stakes Aaron Hernandez murder trial. The victim's girlfriend on the stand, throwing her little sister under the bus for her suspicious behavior in the days after Odin Lloyd's death.

Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

If ISIS was trying to shock, infuriate, repulse the civilized world with its horrific murder of Muath al-Kasaesbeh, well, it more than succeed. But if it was trying to terrorize Jordan into abandoning the anti-ISIS coalition, well, it looks like it's pretty much failed. Because exactly 24 hours after news broke that ISIS had burned alive the Jordanian fighter pilot that it had captured in December, Jordan's king and his top tier security officials have met and they have declared a, quote, "relentless war" against the group that calls itself Islamic State. Already Jordan has executed by hanging the Iranian bomber whose freedom ISIS had demanded, along with one other jihadi prisoner. And a government spokesman warns of, quote, "earth- shaking retaliation," a prospect savored by the dead pilot's father.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAFL AL-KASAESBEH, FATHER OF MURDERED PILOT (through translator): I demand that revenge should be bigger than executing prisoners. I demand that this criminal organization (INAUDIBLE) should be annihilated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in CNN's Atika Shubert, who is reporting in the Jordanian capital of Amman, and then joining me from Washington is former Jordanian foreign minister and deputy prime minister, Marwan Muasher. Mr. Muasher, I'll ask you to hold so we can get the very latest

reporting for you to react to as well.

Atika, bring us up to speed as far as Jordan's reaction and what Jordan is doing specifically militarily with regard to what it suffered through yesterday.

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we already now just have a statement coming in from the Royal Hashemite Court quoting King Abdullah as saying that the response will be severe and that the blood of hero Muath al-Kasaesbeh will not be in vain. And specifically the king said, this terrorist organization, referring of course to ISIS, is not only fighting us, it is also fighting the nobility of Islam. So clearly the king saying that he will continue this fight and, in fact, will bring that earth-shattering response. The question is, what exactly will that be? More air strikes or will there be other kinds of military strikes?

For the moment, he seems to be getting the support from the street. Throughout the day we've seen spontaneous gatherings of people in support of the king as he arrived at the airport, but also prayers at churches and mosques and other community centers, all in support of furthering strikes against ISIS. But, I have to say, I spoke to one man in the crowds today and he said, yes, they want to see an increase of air strikes to, in his words, annihilate ISIS. But when I asked him, what about ground troops to make sure you can regain ground from ISIS? He said, no, that is not something that he wants to see. So we'll have to see what the next steps for Jordan will be.

BANFIELD: Atika Shubert, standing by live for us in Amman, Jordan.

And if I can, I want to bring in Marwan Muasher, again, as a former foreign minister and deputy prime minister, you have very close relationship with the king. The king has released a statement. I want to read it to you in part. It said, "the blood of martyr Muath al- Kasaesbeh will not be in vain and the response of Jordan and its army after what happened to our dear son will be severe." Mr. Muasher, severe, yes, and we're also hearing earth-shaking. But what exactly will that mean in your estimation, sir?

MARWAN MUASHER, FORMER JORDANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: I think the king is thinking about a two-pronged approach. One short term and one long term. In the short term, we can expect intensified strikes against ISIS. I do not think -- and I agree with the young man who you interviewed -- I do not think that is going to involve ground troops, but it will involve everything else probably. We don't know yet what that is because it is going to require careful planning. This is not going to be an emotional response, in my view. It is going to entail identification of targets to strike against. So the military campaign is going to be, I think, sustained and severe.

The king has today the unity of Jordanians in an unprecedented manner since at least the bombings that hit Jordanian hotels and killed more than 60 people 10 years ago. And I think he's going to use that unity to make his point, which he has been making often, that this is not just a military war. This is a war of values. This is a war to claim, you know, who speaks on behalf of Islam, who speaks on behalf of Arab civilization. And that is going to be the long-term strategy, which is going to be a --

BANFIELD: And what is that? That's the question.

MUASHER: Well --

BANFIELD: If this is a battle to counter the ideology of ISIS because perhaps it is more difficult to defeat them militarily than once estimated, what will be that counter ideology battle? Will it be through intelligence, will it be through some other mechanism? What's being discussed?

MUASHER: We're not just talking about a military campaign. We're talking about education and systems. We're talking about values. We're talking about instilling in people, you know, an open system, an appreciation for diversity and respect of other points of view. These are all values that will not spring up overnight and will require a lot of hard work in the country. But I think the king understands that this is an ideological battle that cannot be fought only through military means. And we have to present a counter ideology to these barbaric groups.

BANFIELD: How do you do that? I mean Christiane Amanpour probably most eloquently defined ISIS as what has effectively now just become a death cult. There's little to do with Islam. Clearly they burned a man alive. It goes against every tenet of Islam. How does one fight a death cult if you're just talking about ideologically? What mechanisms?

MUASHER: Well, you talk about, you know, on the political front, you talk about opening the political systems, giving people a voice in the systems economically. You have to look at the economic policies and revisit these policies in the direction of providing jobs for people and addressing the underlying causes that are causing some of the young people to flock to this.

BANFIELD: Surely -- I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm just -- I'm hearing what sounds like a diplomatic outreach to a group like ISIS where, at this point, your country and the kingdom is talking about, you know, earth-shaking revenge. There's such a dichotomy between earth-shaking revenge and any kind of diplomacy. Are you talking about diplomacy?

MUASHER: I'm not -- I'm not talking about diplomacy at all here.

BANFIELD: OK.

MUASHER: I'm not talking about reaching out to ISIS. This is a group with which no compromise is possible. I'm talking about developing a counter ideology inside your own country and around the region that is more inclusive and more open-minded. And I think the king understands that very well when he talks about the need for diversity, the need for, you know, a different culture in the region, one that accepts different points of view. That is what I'm talking about. Not reaching out to ISIS. This is -- this is a group with which no compromise is possible, in my

view, and should be fought militarily. But you need to also, you know, couple that with providing inside your own country and in the countries of the region, providing a different environment that would not cause people to have any support for such barbaric groups.

BANFIELD: I got what you're saying now. At first -- I apologize, I mistook you for saying reaching out to those who are sympathetic to ISIS. But I completely hear what you're saying and I think this is the first of many conversations we could have on this topic. And I welcome you back on the program any time.

Mr. Muasher, thank you for being on.

MUASHER: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Moving on to another big story that we're following. The still pictures are just as chilling as the video itself. A plane with 58 people on board clipping a bridge and crashing into a river, killing at least 26 people who were on board. And the dash cam images from, TBBS (ph) clearly depicting the horror. We're going to look into what happened and how some people managed to survive and seemingly without a scratch.

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BANFIELD: Well, it is certainly the most terrifying piece of video that we have today. And by now you've probably seen a few frames of it, that crash of the commercial airliner in Taiwan. The video comes from one of those dash cams. And we now have two different views of this crash, believe it or not, recorded by two different dash cams, one driving right behind the other one.

From right out of nowhere it seems a twin turbo prop plane clips this bridge as it crashes into a river in central Taipei. There were 58 people on board that plane, including children. The plane hit the water. And as horrific as this looks, incredibly, there are survivors. Dozens of the people who were on board the plane were killed. Several still are unaccounted for. The people did survive this crash, including at least one child.

We're going to go live to Beijing for more on that in just a moment. But first, I want to show you what this frightening crash looked like and sounded like in real time to the person who was driving the car directly behind it. Take a look.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

BANFIELD: And what that translates to, the woman is saying, "oh, God, oh, God, how scary." I want you to watch this. This is another view of the crash from TBBS (ph) and it is from a dash cam a little bit closer to the accident site.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

BANFIELD: Now the plane that you saw crash is an ATR-72 operated by TransAsia Airlines. I want to go live to Beijing right now and CNN's David McKenzie. And also standing by live with us is David Soucie, who's our safety analyst, who used to investigate crashes for the FAA.

But first to you, David McKenzie. I understand there's some news breaking in terms of the number of people who are -- who did not survive this crash, the death toll. What are they saying now?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, unfortunately, Ashleigh, I can't bring you good news. Thirty-one people at least have now died in this horrific crash. That number has been steadily growing as the hours tick by. They've managed to pull the fuselage of that plane out of the river, onto the side, onto the bank. And what effectively they're doing is the grim task of pulling bodies out.

But still, extraordinary tales of survival coming out of this crash. We saw earlier a young child, a boy, being pulled out of the wreckage by the rescuers. Out of the wreckage. That it was an upside-down fuselage. And he seemed, apparently, largely unharmed. Handed to an adult and they were then taken away in one of these small craft. Certainly at least a dozen people survived this crash which has left many people stunned with those extraordinary images.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: David, just looking at some of the pictures, you know, there are some people who are in the river being rescued right now. I'm just looking at those. Do you know anything about their conditions? We heard there were 15 injured. But some of those people in those images looked as though they physically weren't terribly injured at all. Do we know if some completely survived unscathed, while others were literally dead in the fuselage just feet away from them?

MCKENZIE: Well, we still don't know all the details. But if you can imagine the way -- the physical movement of that plane and the violence of the impact, it must have been absolutely horrific for the surviving passengers. It does seem that some were able to literally walk off the fuselage and into the arms of the first responders.

We are learning some more details now about the next steps that are being taken. The Civil Aviation Authority in Taiwan saying they're going to ground all 22 ATR-72 planes that are operated by a variety of operators in Taiwan. And it's worth remembering that this airline had an accident -- a deadly accident just seven months ago when some 48 people were killed in an outlying island off of Taiwan. Too early to tell exactly what happened, of course.

One other piece of news coming in, unfortunately, is that the three pilots or the pilot and co-pilots appear to have been killed as well in the crash.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Oh, that's just such sad news. David McKenzie reporting live for us. And just really remarkable images and maybe even more remarkably from two different cars directly behind one another. David McKenzie, thank you for that. And, David Soucie, I know that you've investigated so many of these

plane crashes. I have a lot of questions I have for you, specifically with regard to the angle of that plane as it was coming towards the bridge and ultimately to the water. I'm going to go to break. But during the break, think through the answer I'm going to ask you about, is it possible, looking at the angle, that that pilot was trying to do the same kind of thing that Sully Sullenberger, Chesley Sullenberg, was trying to do when he landed on the Hudson, try to get those people to water to they might possibly land safely. We'll ask about that after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: That plane crash in Taiwan earlier today without a doubt the most startling piece of video that we've seen certainly in aviation for quite a long time. Here's a quick reminder if you're just joining us. Take a look.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That is just one dash cam that was rolling when that airliner smashed into a bridge as the car was driving and then went into the river with 58 people on board. And here's another view from a few car lengths back.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Very riveting. And so far we're being told the official death toll has risen, 31 people died in that crash, but several people are still unaccounted for. And the numbers that are coming out of Taipei are that 15 people survived, some of them obviously injured.

David Soucie is a CNN safety analyst, a former air crash investigator for the FAA. He joins me again live.

So, David, I just wanted to get your thoughts on the pilots and what they were possibly trying to do as -- we rarely get this kind of -- I hate to say luxury, but to be able to watch a crash in real time. How much intelligence do you gather from that and what the pilots may have been trying to do at this last moment?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: These videos are very informative, but more importantly is going to be, again, the black boxes, what's recorded on there. But from what I can see, this phase of flight, just after take-off, the pilot reported that -- a mayday and he also said something about his engine flaming out. So that particular portion of the flight, when you're just taking off, is super critical as far as the lift and how much thrust you have going forward. If you lose an engine during that part of the flight, you pretty much are trained to just continue to go straight and land right in front of you.

But I think, in this instance, we may have an instance where the pilot had tried to minimize the fatalities by making a quick bank to the left and trying to get the aircraft into the water, which would allow for more survivability. Of course, unfortunately, the pilots sacrificed himself in doing that by the way the aircraft went straight in. So I think that that's something that, at this point, although it's preliminary, the fact that he reported that there was an engine out, typically in that case, the engines are center line thrust, so even with one engine out, he would have continued that flight and landed or crashed directly ahead of him at the end of the runway.

That's not what happened. He made a quick bank to the left and there's nothing that would have done that in my mind, other than a left wing stall, which isn't the case here, or the pilot trying to navigate around to avoid hitting on solid ground.

BANFIELD: So I'm glad you mentioned that. I don't know if you have a monitor in front of you, but we've been showing the still freeze frames of the aircraft just as it tips its wing and hits the bridge. And you can clearly see --

SOUCIE: Right.

BANFIELD: And many analysts have commented on that left propeller does not appear to be rotating at the speed that the right one does. So does that tell you that that was something that pilots had no control over or less control over or is that seriously what you're saying, the true heroics of two pilots?

SOUCIE: It could very well be. It does look like that engine's not rotating. To be definite on that, you'd have to see the frame before and the frame after to know that it's not just something to do with the frequency of the camera itself. But nonetheless, if that left engine has quit, you can also see that that propeller is being forced backward. It's not being pulled forward as though it had thrust coming forward. So you can see that that propeller appears to be going backward, which would indicate to me that there was no thrust on it and that the actual forward momentum was pushing the blade backwards, or at least having that resonance effect on it.

So it's very likely that that left engine was the problem. But the fact that it went to the left is not necessarily indicative of the fact that the left engine failed, because this aircraft has an auto feather. So if that engine quits, the aircraft propeller wouldn't stay like this, it would turn this way, in which case it would be aerodynamic and wouldn't cause that pull to the left. So, in this case, either the auto feather failed, in which case you'd have the blades that aren't producing thrust and just producing drag, which would drag it to the left, or you have a case in which the pilots are just simply being very heroic and avoiding the straight-on collision with the ground, trying to get it into the water where it might have a better chance of survivability.

BANFIELD: So do you know much about the ATR-72, this aircraft that we're looking at? Has it had any problems in the past? Is it a reliable workhorse? What do you know about it?

SOUCIE: It is a reliable workhorse. However, it has suffered its problems with weather and with icing. Just seven months ago, this particular air carrier did have an accident. However, that was related to weather specifically, not to the aircraft itself. So whether or not this has something to do with the aircraft or whether -- the weather didn't appear to be something that would cause an engine out. Could very well be from bird strikes. It's something where the birds get into the combustion section of this engine and cause that engine to fail. Typically that's what -- when bird strikes happen is either on take-off or landing as you're approaching the ground.

BANFIELD: All right, David Soucie giving us analysis on this remarkable image, thank you for that. And we'll continue to update our viewers on the search for the survivors, if there are any, or those who did not survive and become a search for bodies. Thanks.

So there is this remarkable turn of events that happened in a courtroom in Massachusetts. If you've been following the Aaron Hernandez murder trial, you probably have not seen something like this. The woman on the stand right there is the mother of the victim. And in any murder case, there is perhaps not more dramatic testimony nor a more emotional moment than when the mother of the murdered victim takes the stand. We're going to take you there and tell you what she told the judge and what the judge told her, next.

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