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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Jordanian Justice; ISIS Claims Hostage Dead

Aired February 06, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Outrage and warnings are one thing, missiles and bombs quite another. But day two of the mission called Muath the martyr proves Jordan means what it says about ISIS. For the second time since ISIS publicized the horrific murder of Jordanian fighter pilot Muath al-Kasaesbeh, Jordanian fighter jets hit ISIS positions in Syria with American jets flying alongside.

On the streets of Amman, meanwhile, new displays of anguish and anger and I draw your attention to the woman who is carrying the dead pilot's picture right there in the middle. That is a queen. That is Jordan's queen, Queen Rania, seen here personally consoling Muath al- Kasaesbeh's widow. The two had been married just less than a year.

I want to bring in my CNN colleague, Becky Anderson, in the Jordanian capital, and CNN military analyst James "Spider" Marks joins me from Los Angeles.

Becky, there is some talk about the possibility of boots on the ground, whether that is just in the wake of all the anger, outrage and the desire for revenge. How serious is it that Jordan may go further than these air strikes now two days running?

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You won't get Jordanian officials to confirm or even suggest that they're going to put boots on the ground. But there is clearly a groundswell of emotion here to do more in order to eradicate the militant group ISIS. You saw lethal force, a show of lethal force in the air once again by the Jordanians, as you rightly point out, covered by the Americans in the air over Syria today. And the message very clear on multiple fronts, degrade and destroy this organization. The king has talked about eradicating, annihilating ISIS both in Syria and in Iraq.

But I think if you're looking for some nuance here and some texture, there is an very important story to be told behind the scenes here as the royal family and leaders here talk to a domestic audience as well. I think, as you reflect on a week which has been very pivotal for Jordan and the mourning period continuing in the south for the young pilot so brutally murdered by ISIS, there is a domestic audience who is galvanized in its support for a battle going forward. And this an audience domestically who wasn't united, it has to be said, wasn't united in Jordan's position in this war. Even saying that Jordan shouldn't be involved in this war. People said here that this was an American war, not an Arab war. But we just had the interior minister here on CNN speaking on my show, "Connect the World," and he categorically said that this is not the west's war, it is an Arab war. It should be fought by Arabs, both on the ground and in the air.

Do remember the likes of the Peshmerga in Iraq, the foot soldiers in this war, needing, appealing for more help from all of its -- their regional allies and beyond, of course, the Americas with their superior force. And also the foot soldiers in Syria. So I guess the question is now, what happens next in the days, weeks and months ahead? This is going to be a long process if this group is to be eradicated. But there certainly is a groundswell of emotion and support from here. Will other regional allies step up with their efforts again? Possibly. That remains to be seen. Will America heed the appeals for more resources, both in the air and on the ground? That remains to be seen as well. (INAUDIBLE) very, very big weekend (ph).

BANFIELD: Becky, I need to just break in. Becky, I'm sorry to cut you off, I need to break in.

We've got some breaking news.

I want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and around the world. Some breaking news that we want to bring to you. It's come to our attention the Islamic State, ISIS as it's known more commonly, is making a frightening claim today, and that is that a female hostage who is American has apparently been killed as a result of the Jordanian air strikes. Again, this is the claim being made by the Islamic state, by ISIS, saying that Jordanian aircraft struck a building in which she was located in Syria's Raqqa, in the governate (ph), it's saying.

The report was distributed on Twitter, February 6th, that's today here in the United States. The group stating that this - and I just need to clear this if I can with our producers. Her name was being withheld for a long time at the request of her family. And I'm sure if we are at liberty to use the name of this American female hostage. I'm just trying to check this. If my control room could please let me know if that name is now cleared for reporting. We're not clearing that right now. We are not going to name this female hostage at this time.

But, again, this is the claim being made by ISIS militants via Twitter, that the American hostage, the only female hostage at this time that is known to be held by ISIS, apparently, according to ISIS, has been killed in the air strikes. ISIS militants also attributing those air strikes to the Jordanians.

Hard to be clear as there are many different air strikes in the task list that is allocated every day. But as you will well know from much of the reporting, CNN has been reporting now for two days straight - thank you -- air strikes that have been ongoing from Jordan. Jordan wanting to up its contributions to the number of targets taken out in those daily air strikes. And now it has been two days.

I want to bring in Major General Spider Marks, who's a military analyst for CNN, and Becky Anderson is still with me live. Spider Marks, this was a grave concern, I am sure, as it has been for

so long, that somewhere in those targets there would be human shields, whether they were broadcast or not. Was this something that you expected could happen?

MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS: CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Ashleigh, good morning.

Yes, absolutely. This is one of the unfortunate aspects of combat from a distance, from the air that we see right now. I mean even if it was up close and personal and we had boots on the ground or there were special forces that might be conducting a raid to rescue her, there is always a risk. And you measure that risk in terms of the damage that might be done and it's called collateral damage in this case. But you can put a face on it in this particular instance.

And, of course, it's unfortunate. But let's take the emotion and ratchet it down a little bit and say, look, this is a tragedy. We need to help the family mourn. The United States and its coalition partners have to move forward to continue to bring the fight to ISIS. And we've chosen to do that through this strategy of air strikes and containment. Let's keep that up.

BANFIELD: And I just want to reiterate that if you're just joining us, welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. The news is breaking that ISIS is making a claim -- and you can call this something that could be highly skeptical given the claims that ISIS has made before. Let's not forget, it was only within the last several weeks, ISIS wanted to negotiate a prisoner swap for the Jordanian pilot that was already killed. They released the video weeks after his death, but they were certainly negotiating to transfer him well after his death. Therefore, this could be met with some high skepticism, the claim that's being made by ISIS militants via Twitter today that one of the hostages being held by ISIS, particularly a female American hostage, has been killed in Jordanian air strikes. How they could delineate a Jordanian air strike from any other coalition member's, also something one would have to question.

There is another issue that you'd have to take into account as well. From reading their press release - and I will call it that as they released on Twitter -- there is only one person said to have been killed in this bombing raid on a target in Raqqa.

I want to bring in our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr.

Barbara, is the Pentagon acknowledging this in any way? Certainly I'm guessing they are investigating this.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ashleigh, at this hour, agencies across the U.S. government are aware of this single ISIS report. They are looking at it. But all of us at CNN here in Washington have been talking to our sources and they are not able to confirm any of this. And I think there's good reason. And I think there's good reason to underscore the skepticism that you're talking about. We simply -- the American government, the American people, the Jordanian people, the Jordanian government, do not know, cannot verify this. And here's why.

This ISIS statement refers to one person, this American female hostage, an aid worker, being killed in Jordanian strikes that have taken place. We know that there was another round of Jordanian strikes against ISIS targets in this area of Raqqa. But one person killed? This is something that doesn't usually happen. We know that the Jordanians were going after a number of ISIS targets. They've been going after weapon sites, depots, assembly areas for ISIS personnel, that sort of thing.

Is it possible that maybe they moved a hostage to an area that they knew was likely to get hit, you know, essentially making someone a human shield? That is always possible. But ISIS, again, making a very specific claim, as we've seen them do in the past, with absolutely no proof. No indication that this is true. And so this is really some of the most vile propaganda and emotional trauma to inflict on this woman's family at this time because there is no proof.

This is something that the U.S. will look at. How have they been - how would the U.S. intelligence community be able to even begin to verify some of these claims? If there was visual proof of someone specifically being killed, obviously. Also, traditionally, the intelligence community will intercept cell phone calls, communications. The Jordanian intelligence services work with people on the ground who may know something. They work with third-party governments who may know something about what happens on the ground inside Syria.

But all of this could take time. So they're going to look at all of the technical capabilities, everything from intercepts to talking to, you know, trusted operatives on the ground. But this is something that would have to be verified. This is - this is a tried-and-true ISIS technique of emotional terror, if you will. I think we have a long way to go. We may find something out in the coming hours, but a long way to go before this can be absolutely verified.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Barbara, thank you. Stand by for a moment. I just want to reiterate what this news is, if you're just joining us. Via Twitter, the Islamic State, a group known perhaps better as ISIS, is making a claim that these most recent air strikes have claimed one life in particular, that of a female American hostage. This has to be met with a healthy amount of skepticism, however, for the very reasons that Barbara has pointed out and for the very reasons that just by the nature of the claims and the duplicitous types of negotiations that these militants have made before, it's very difficult to be able to prove.

There is no proof of death either in this case, just a claims being made that one person in particular who was held at a site in the Raqqa governet (ph) has been killed. And the ISIS militants claiming that that is the American hostage.

Let me - let me read a translation of the ISIS report for you, if I may. "The failed Jordanian aircraft killed an American female hostage. The criminal crusader coalition aircraft bombarded a site outside of the city of al-Raqqa (ph) today at noon while the people were performing the Friday prayer." And it goes on to name, which we will not, the female American hostage they claim was killed.

I want to bring back Barbara Starr.

Is there new reporting on this, Barbara, from the Pentagon?

STARR: Well, no. I just want to underscore something that you were just talking about, Ashleigh, you know, happening during Friday prayer time. A number of

people around. These are all things that sort of, on initial glance, really don't quite add up. One person getting killed? That's all ISIS is saying at the moment.

I think also not only emotional terror to this woman's family, but a bit of emotional terror attempt, if you will, to the Obama administration. It has been well known for many months that there is an American woman who is being held hostage by ISIS. It has been reported off and on. CNN has long chosen not to publicly name this woman.

But ISIS knows that the Obama administration knows that there is a woman being held. And there's a certain amount of emotional baggage that goes along with that. We have never seen her in any of these videotapes in recent months. We've never seen them acknowledge her identity in any substantive way until this today. And I emphasize substantive. Everybody knew this woman was there, but not a lot of talking about it.

So you have to wonder, perhaps, if, you know, now that the Jordanians have come in and really galvanized the Arab government in the Middle East, to fight back against ISIS, was ISIS turning to what they thought maybe was their ultimate propaganda tool, which was the fate of a woman at their hands? Oddly enough, I was speaking earlier today to a top U.S. military official about all these videotapes. And what this official was pointing out is you look at the videotapes, you look at the ISIS propaganda. It's very heavily produced. It's well-thought- out by them. They know what they want to show in the terrible murder video.

BANFIELD: Yes.

STARR: It's a highly produced video that is, you know, got a lot of thought going into it.

BANFIELD: Sure.

STARR: It takes them time to do all of this. So, again, this is - this is them using the hostages. Whatever the fate of this young woman is, we will find out eventually. But this is them using the hostages as a tool of their propaganda and I think everyone agrees, you can't say that often enough about them.

BANFIELD: Which is why we're giving this a healthy dose of skepticism and yet it is important to report this because oftentimes what they report bears out. We had heard a report about the burning alive of the pilot and that certainly bore out within hours to be true.

I want to bring in Spider Marks again on this issue because, General Marks, listen, the notion that Jordan could be identified from the ground as being the actual bombers sounds a bit difficult for me to swallow. To suggest on Twitter that it was the Jordanian air strikes that crushed the building in which this American female hostage allegedly was being held. From a military point of view, how easy would it have been to identify who did the bombing?

MARKS: Almost impossible. Ashleigh, we should take this reporting not only with a healthy dose of skepticism, but really kind of discount it. And the only thing that we should hold onto is the possibility that this American hostage might now be dead. I think that's the key piece and we need to put that to the side and there are actions that need to take place where you can embrace the family and you can honor that young woman.

The question is, how does this alter our strategy and our tactics moving forward? It doesn't. Not a bit. We are on a path to try to isolate and contain ISIS. Jordanians have entered into the fight. We've increased our air strikes. It has to be an oppressive attack against ISIS that isolates them so they can't support each other on the battlefield. And we need to step it up. So we smother these guys. And then the discussion always comes back to, OK, is this enough? And the answer is, no. Because at some point do we need to put boots on the ground? And I apologize, it's really soldiers on the ground. Let's put a face on it. And the answer has to be, at some point, yes. Or if we're going to allow this strategy to play out, let's define it in long-term decades in terms of an engagement. This is what we're talking about. So it doesn't change our actions. We need to honor this young woman. We need to move forward. And Barbara is right there doing a great job talking to all the folks saying, OK, what about what's next?

BANFIELD: Right.

MARKS: Well, the answer is, no change. Let's drive on.

BANFIELD: All right. I want to bring in Nick Paton Walsh, our foreign correspondent, who currently is in Donetsk, Ukraine, reporting on the Ukrainian story, but has spent so much time in and out of Syria and working within the various factions of militants in that area.

And, Nick, I know you have a lot of insight. I'm trying to get to the heart of what could possibly be a benefit for ISIS if in fact this claim is true in releasing this information in this manner.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, in many ways, horrible as these circumstances were, the fact that ISIS seemed to have been holding a female hostage, that's pretty clear, presented them with a dilemma to some degree, particularly given the U.S. government policy of no negotiation and not paying ransoms. That certainly potentially limited what they could have expected to have got potentially as a trading chip, as awful to talk about someone in these circumstances, although they are collateral for a terrorist organization like this. But also, I think, even by the slightly twisted standard we've seen in

ISIS videos, the notion of executing her, murdering her in the same way we've seen in previous videos, for a woman would have been perhaps a particularly difficult prospect for them. So they must, in some degree, trying to work out precisely what the avenue they could pursue with this woman, if she has, in fact, lost her life in these strikes and maybe this has been a cynical twist in using the Jordanian air strikes to somehow get them out of this complex situation they have been in.

But we don't know what the circumstances are right now. I think many, though, who have observed ISIS were certainly wondering quite what they would be able to do with this female hostage who most believe were -- was in their detention, given the sort of sensitives around holding a female like -- in a situation like that, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: I want to go to Becky Anderson now if I can.

And, Becky, there is so much reporting about the wealth of intelligence that the Jordanians can bring to the coalition in its air strike fight. But then, if this report is true, how valuable is that intelligence if, in fact, the human collateral damage includes an American hostage, who clearly they would have taken every measure to try to protect from these air strikes.

ANDERSON: I think if we stand back from this and just consider the deep depravity, the duplicity, the lies that ISIS have spewed in the negotiations for that young pilot who it is reported here was actually killed by ISIS on January the 3rd, but the video, the highly produced video of that brutal murder, only released a month later. During that window, the propaganda from ISIS was unbelievable. And what you had here, for example, was a Salafi cleric who had been detained for dissent against the government, actually involved in the negotiations. And to his words, he was reported he's being released from prison by decree here. And to his words, as he was in an interview today on a Jordanian television station, he said he dealt with ISIS at a very high level. He was trying to effectively get the trade done between the al Qaeda would-be suicide bomber, who was held in prison and had been for a decade here on death row, for the pilot. This was to be a swap.

And this man himself, who was talking to al Baghdadi and to al Baghdadi's henchmen, the men who say they run the Islamic State, he was talking to them and trying to negotiate with them. They were talking to him as if this hostage had been alive, but in fact he wasn't. So even from a cleric here who had contact -- good contact with ISIS, he was horrified and appalled in an interviewed today by just how depraved this group had been during those negotiations, to have given the impression that this chap was alive when actually he wasn't so that they could get that prisoner swap done.

So I think, you know, as you rightly point out, with all of those who were talking this hour about the news that's just been bringing and taking it with a healthy dose of skepticism, I think you just have to stand back and consider just how low the depths that this group will plumb in order to peddle their own propaganda. Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: And just how little credibility they hold due to the lying, the awful lying. Becky, stand by for a moment.

For our viewers here in the United States and around the world, a quick recap of what's happening. Through Twitter, ISIS is claiming that the recent air strikes, in the last few days at least is the suggestion, has actually claimed the life of a hostage that was held, specifically a female American hostage. Clearly has to be met with skepticism as the claim is that only one person was killed in that strike and that it was the American hostage and that it was a Jordanian in the air above them, which would be terribly difficult to identify. And yet that is the claim being made via Twitter.

A quick break and, once again, the question of the Jordanian intelligence and how valuable is it if this possibly could have happened. That in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BANFIELD: I want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Ashleigh Banfield.

Our breaking news from CNN today, ISIS making the claim via Twitter that the air strikes, the blistering air strikes in the last two days, have claimed a particular life, the life of a female American hostage. Again, this is a claim being made via Twitter from ISIS saying that an American female hostage, who was known to be held, was, in fact, in a building and was the only victim in that building. They are not offering any kind of proof of death in all of this and they are also doing something else highly speculative, and that is suggesting that they know it was the Jordanian air strike. Militarily speaking, how they could identify that it was a Jordanian air strike that caused that death is somewhat skeptical, which is why this has to be met with a healthy dose of skepticism. However, the claim is being made by ISIS via Twitter that an American female hostage, whom CNN is not naming, has been killed in this latest round of air strikes.

Our Becky Anderson is joining me live now.

And, Becky, you've had a chance to speak with the interior minister in Jordan. What's the response here?

ANDERSON: That's right, in the last couple of minutes since we've been reporting this story. And he just told us by phone that ISIS has been trying to destroy the resolve of the Jordanian people. This has been a pivotal week here. And he says that what this is, is an attempt to drive a wedge between coalition members, and that will not happen.

As I say, a pivotal week here dealing with this - with the, you know, the skepticism that it deserves, important to hear from the Jordanians, though. And this will be incredibly, incredibly difficult to take in what is still a mourning period here for the young Jordanian pilot who was burned alive. The video released just this week. But he believed to have been killed by ISIS a month ago. The deep depravity of this group continues, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Becky Anderson is live for us in Amman, Jordan.

Barbara Starr is our Pentagon correspondent who's joining me live from the Pentagon.

One of the big questions - in fact, let me go to Major General Spider Marks first because one of the big questions, Spider, and I think you can speak beautifully to this with your military background, and that is the intelligence that was supposed to be so valuable coming from the Jordanians. They are supposed to have a wealth of it - thank you -- particularly the human kind of intelligence, which is so critical in actually targeting, pinpointing those targets on the ground. What's to be made of the Jordanian intelligence, if in fact this turns out to be true? And I'm not suggesting it is. But if, in fact, it is.

MARKS: Ashleigh, you know, this is one of those where you just go, this is so incredibly hard - I mean, wow. How do you - how do you penetrate this particular network with human sources on the ground and be present next to this female, if in fact this is true, and be able then to report back that says, look, we have her identified, positively identified in this particular grid square, at this particular location. This now becomes a target of interest in that you can't strike here, you're going to have to strike someplace else and also realize these are incredibly precise munitions. They go in the left window or they go in the right window.

So this is incredibly, incredibly hard. Human intelligence is the most difficult, but also the most precise intelligence.