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Mosul Could Trigger U.S. Ground Troops Recommendation; Parents Of American ISIS Hostage Make Plea; U.S. Charges Six With Aiding Terrorists Overseas; Jordan: Claims ISIS Killed U.S. Hostage A "PR Stunt"; Police Officers Charged With Beating, Cover-up; NBC Investigating Brian Williams' Iraq Claim; Legal Liability For Those Who Don't Vaccinate?

Aired February 07, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: And we have so much more ahead, straight ahead in the NEWSROOM, and it all starts right now.

Happening right now in the NEWSROOM, new air strikes against a major ISIS stronghold.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Behind me is the most important piece of territory that ISIS still controls in Northern Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The U.S. now trying to gather intel on whether American ground troops should help take Iraq's largest city.

And measles cases in the U.S. continue to spread. Should parents be legally required to vaccinate their children?

Plus, it's a credibility crisis. NBC launches its own investigation into Brian Williams' statements about his reporting in Iraq. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Hello again, everyone. Thank you so much for joinin me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. All right, we begin with new coalition attacks against ISIS in Iraq and Syria, a total of 26 air strikes overnight, according to U.S. Central Command. ISIS releasing these images it says are from Raqqa, Syria, supposedly showing the aftermath of the strikes.

CNN cannot confirm the authenticity of these pictures. More than a dozen air strikes targeted ISIS stronghold in Iraq's second largest city of Mosul. CNN's Phil Black is one of the few western journalists there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Behind me is the most important piece of territory that ISIS still controls in Northern Iraq, Mosul. It is Iraq's second biggest city and you see it here from top of Mt. Zartek where I'm standing it's one of the closest positions occupied by the Kurdish fighters, the Peshmerga, who have drawn a defensive line around that ISIS-controlled city.

From up here there is a commanding view into Mosul from the south and the towns and villages which surround it and which are still occupied by ISIS as well. On this day, overhead has been the constant sound of aircraft, fast-moving aircraft. We have seen what appears to be a slower moving, larger reconnaissance aircraft of some kind.

And then frequently, repeatedly often very close to one another, the sound of large blasts in the distance. It is a hazy day, not the best day to view Mosul from this location, but you still have a very clear idea of what lies between the lines that have been established by the Kurdish fighters around the south and southwest of this city, and that no-man's-land between leading up to Mosul itself.

The strategy for the Kurdish fighters is to circle this city, to cut it off and choke it off in particular from re-supply across the border in Syria. That is what these fighters are aiming to do, not just on this front but also from the southwest and the west as well near the area of the Syrian border.

The idea is to cut off ISIS, weaken them, prevent them from re-supply ahead of anticipated major operation, an advance to try and re-claim this very important city from their control. That operation is still looks like to be months away. Phil Black, CNN in Northern Iraq.

WHITFIELD: Will a ground offensive against ISIS in Mosul include American troops? CNN has learned the U.S. military is gathering intelligence to determine whether it should recommend American troops accompany Iraqi forces to help retake the city.

While air strikes aimed at ISIS continue, the U.S. is trying to determine the credibility of a claim that a Jordanian air strike killed an American hostage. So far American and Jordanian officials say there is no evidence supporting the claim that 26-year-old Kayla Mueller is dead.

This as the Mueller family implores ISIS to contact them and let them know if she is still alive. CNN's Kyung Lah joins us from Prescott, Arizona. So Kyung, what are the family members saying, if anything?

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they released that statement attention saying they are hoping she is alive. They are trying to talk directly to the captors. There is in that statement in everything we have heard from the people of this town a lot of confusion, profound sadness. But that slight glimmer of hope they are hoping that ISIS will somehow manage to bring her home.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAH (voice-over): Police close off the street leading to the Mueller family home. Kayla Mueller's mother and father grapple with how their child who gives so much is trapped in war's brutality. But it was the very atrocities of war that drew Mueller. In Syria, she felt compelled to help the victimized. In 2011, she posted this video protest online.

KAYLA MUELLER: I am in solidarity with the Syrian people. I reject the brutality and killing of the Syrian authorities are committing against the Syrian people.

LAH: By the following year, she would make her first trip to the Syrian Turkish border, oceans away from her quiet hometown of Prescott, Arizona. But even growing up, she longed to engage in the wrongs of the world. Todd Geiler is a doctor close with the family.

TODD GEILER, MUELLER FAMILY FRIEND: The daughter is one of those folks that look for the good in everything. And in that vein, she goes on ahead and tries to look for her god-sender with the way she looks and acts in day to day life?

LAH: In high school, her local paper showed her marching through town as part of the Save Darfur Coalition, lobbying members of Congress and staging protests against the genocide. As a student at Northern Arizona University, Mueller was president of a group called "Stand," a student-led movement to end mass atrocities.

After graduating, she joined aid agencies that took her to India, Israel and the Palestinian territories. She came home briefly in 2011, volunteering at a woman's shelter and an HIV/AIDS clinic, Northland Cares. The director telling CNN, she was truly a remarkable woman.

We are all very sad. But Mueller could not ignore the unfolding crisis in Syria. The children, she told her local paper, captured her heart. In May of 2013, she spoke at the Prescott Kiwanis Club where her father is a member.

She said as long as I live, I will not let this suffering be normal. Just two months later, as she left a hospital in Aleppo, Syria, she was kidnapped. Her family would hear nothing until ten months later.

ISIS demanded a ransom of nearly $7 million or they would kill Kayla Mueller on August 13th. As Jordan begins its air strikes against ISIS, this photo from ISIS, and their claim that those air strikes killed Mueller, unsubstantiated, likely a twisted ploy in the ISIS propaganda game.

Mueller's parents in a public statement directly to ISIS urged her captors to contact them privately and added, we are still hopeful that Kayla is alive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAH: Now people who are close with the family tell us that there was a very clear understanding of the organization that they are dealing with. Not just on the part of Kayla Mueller, but also her parents. Despite this, they are still hoping this will end up being some sort of lie -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Kyung Lah, thank you so much from Prescott. U.S. authorities have arrested six people, meantime, on terror-related charges. The suspects are accused of providing materials and money to terrorists in Syria and Iraq. And all six defendants emigrated to the U.S. from Bosnia, and three are naturalized citizens.

Officials say two suspects plan to join terrorists in battle. Five of them were arrested in the U.S. and one overseas. Let me bring in CNN's law enforcement analyst, Tom Fuentes, from Washington.

So tom, we don't have a whole lot of detail about these arrests or these subjects. But to hear that some are from Bosnia or at least Bosnian immigrants, how does that strike you?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Fredricka, it doesn't strike me as that unusual, simply because you've had people from over 50 countries travel to Syria and Iraq to join ISIS already. So in this case, if they were Bosnian in the United States, but yet still wanted to join and provide support, even if it was by financial or help recruit or whatever.

It's not that unusual that it would be, you know -- we have people from Asia, North America, Europe, Australia, that have gone to join ISIS. So Bosnia is yet one more country and it's been the site of a great deal of strife over the decades.

WHITFIELD: So these men have been charged with supporting terror -- terrorists overseas or terrorist operations overseas. What kind of activity does that imply they may have been engaging in?

FUENTES: That can imply that they were trying to recruit people to actually go and join. Or that they were trying to fundraise, whether it be by criminal activity or other activity. So -- or they themselves wanted to travel there and join.

So there's a number of possible ways they can provide material support, and we'll learn more when they unveil when the specifics are in the charges.

WHITFIELD: And do you suspect that, especially as a result of what happened in France, that these kinds of operations, intel right here in the U.S., really investigating people who may be either searching or engaging beyond searching online, conversations with suspected terror groups? That is being stepped up as a result of what happened in France?

FUENTES: No. Because I think that it was as stepped up as it could be for months, if not years already. And we have our produced and introduced as evidence to take them into court. So, you know, what the French or the Europeans are doing is based on their legal system, and what we have to do is based on ours.

Now, you've had the FBI director about three weeks ago in a public speech say the FBI is conducting over 1,000 active counterterrorism investigations. This would be just one of those. And there are many more just like it, going on all of the time. And as they investigate and follow through, they look to see are the people that are talking about supporting ISIS actually taking steps to support them or are they just mouthing off, saying we want to support them, and they're really not taking specific action to do so?

So this is just an example that when there's enough evidence, they want to take that case down so they can apply the resources to the next case. And not be bogged down with trying to watch people forever.

WHITFIELD: Tom Fuentes, thank you so much from Washington.

FUENTES: Thank you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, still ahead, as war with ISIS escalates, are the terrorists using Americans as human shields?

Plus, the plot thickens in the Brian Williams controversy. Right now NBC is fact-checking his embellished war story, or was it embellished? Can he survive the fallout?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Jordan unleashes more airstrikes against ISIS. This after ISIS claims a Jordanian air strike killed American hostage, 26-year- old Kayla Mueller. The United States and Jordan both say there is no evidence supporting that claim.

Joining me now are, Chris Hill, a former U.S. ambassador to Iraq and CNN political commentator, and a former CIA counterterrorism analyst, Buck Sexton. Buck, to you first, ISIS is not generally very creditable when it says an American was killed. How will anyone know if it's the result of the Jordanian air strike?

BUCK SEXTON, FORMER CIA COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: It's very unlikely. It's almost impossible that in these few air strikes they would have managed to get the one U.S. hostage they have in their custody. So as a matter of probability, you can almost dismiss it. And on top of the claim that is made that not only was the American hostage killed, which I do not believe.

On top of that, they have said none of their fighters were killed. So somehow the Jordanians, including to the Islamic State were able to kill a hostage and not anybody else. This is not credible at all and we're figure to have to wait and see what the fate of the hostage is, and our prayers are with the family.

WHITFIELD: And so, Ambassador Hill, how does the U.S. proceed? We know Jordan is now increasing its strikes. Almost like taking a lead in the bombardment of the ISIS stronghold areas. But how should the U.S. proceed when it pertains to looking for this young American girl? Trying to get to the bottom of whether indeed she was killed in this air strike. How should the U.S. proceed?

CHRIS HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, I think this is a time to be very close to the Jordanians. And I think we're doing everything we can to support the Jordanians, whenever they need. I think we're helping them. And I think that's very important.

Secondly, another I think battle is looming very much up in Mosul. And you can see the sort of beginnings of it, where the Iraqi forces have wanted to move, the U.S. has been advocating caution there. But obviously, that is a top priority.

Once the battle gets going that it needs to be successful. And then thirdly, I can assure you, the U.S. is just heavily engaged in every way we can be, to find any and all-American hostages, and I'm sure that effort is in no way, you know, retarded or pulled back by the other efforts.

WHITFIELD: And it's been said that she is the last American hostage still unclear whether that can be believed, as well. But Buck, when you look at the variety of people who have been held against their will, hostages being held by ISIS from, you know, Japanese, to British, to Americans.

And now Jordanians, there clearly is some real strategy behind what ISIS is doing, whether it be to engage countries of these hostages' origin or whether to make a statement that ISIS has a grip on the world. What -- how do you interpret this strategy, if indeed there is one here?

SEXTON: Well, it seems there has been a shift in strategy. It had been pretty common place for the Islamic State to engage in negotiations that did result in some kind of release. If money was paid, you could actually get a hostage freed from their grip.

What we have seen more recently is that they're much more interested in the propaganda value of the videos they have created, of these gruesome murder videos, and also using it as a means to oppose specific policies. In the case of the Japanese hostages, for example, they tied the figure they requested, the $200 million to the amount the Japanese prime minister said he wanted to give the effort -- humanitarian effort in Iraq and Syria.

So they're using this on the world stage to get attention for their cause and this is terrorism in the classic sense. They're trying to psychologically terrorize people by releasing videos instead of relying on this as a main funding stream. Although I think they're going to find more hostages in the weeks and months ahead.

WHITFIELD: Ambassador Hill, if money is driving the machine of ISIS, whether receiving money because of ransom and so many more countries now are saying we don't want to engage in that, because even in exchange for the release of our citizen, we don't want to help finance ISIS.

How is ISIS continuing to get money? Do you believe there are certain governments that are somehow funneling money, whether it be from black market oil or in other ways they're getting money from countries?

HILL: I think when we look back at this whole episode, the murder of the Jordanian pilot, I think caused a kind of sea change. And I think there is more and more sign that ISIS is not getting the funds they need. Obviously, money is being funneled to them, but there is no evidence at this point that it's being funneled to them by actual governments.

So I think they're getting money in the old fashioned way. They're engaged in extortion. Obviously, they have been trying to sell gasoline on spot markets in southern Turkey, but overall, ISIS is experiencing some real stress.

And I think that's why there is some real effort on the part of the U.S., the Iraqis and others to see what pressure can be put on them in the battlefield.

WHITFIELD: Ambassador Chris Hill, Buck Sexton, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

All right, they took an oath to serve and protect, but investigators say two police officers attacked and live. We'll show the key piece of evidence authorities say caught them in a cover-up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Two Philadelphia police officers have been charged with brutalizing a man and claiming that he attacked them. Nick Valencia joins me with the surveillance video that is the key in this case against the cops.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If not for the quick thinking of the girlfriend, he may never have had his chance at redemption. He set a $200,000 lawsuit with the city of Philadelphia and his lawyer says Rivera's name is now clear.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VALENCIA (voice-over): Vindicated by video, nearly two years after he was brutally be beaten by police, 23-year-old Naji Rivera received a slice of justice. The two cops involved in his assault indicted by a grand jury and arrested this week charged with police brutality.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The eye was beaten and swollen shut. There was a broken nose. There were approximately 20 staples to the top of his head from having his head split open.

VALENCIA: It was May 29th, 2013, when veteran officers Sean McKnight and Kevin Robinson said Rivera resisted arrest after they said he ran a stop sign in his scooter. In an initial police report, the officer said, Rivera, quote, "attempted to flee on foot after being pulled over."

According to the officers, Rivera then slammed an officer against a brick wall before throwing elbows at an officer during the struggle. Officer Robinson was even said to have suffered minor pain. But after watching surveillance video from the incident, a grand jury determined the officers' story was a lie.

SETH WILLIAMS, PHILADELPHIA DISTRICT ATTORNEY: The video undermined every, every aspect of the officers' account of the incident. Another officer arrived at the scene and thought Mr. Rivera had been shot since there was so much blood on the ground.

VALENCIA: It was Rivera's girlfriend who found the video, the result of knocking on local businesses where the assault happened to see if it had been caught on tape.

COMMISSIONER CHARLES RAMSEY, PHILADELPHIA POLICE: It is painful, it is embarrassing. It does bring a lot of issues you see across the country. We have 6,500 sworn members, these guys to not represent the majority of police officers.

VALENCIA: The district attorney has dropped all charges against Rivera. His attorney says Rivera knew this day would come.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's unfortunate, you know, for the police department as a whole. They're all a pretty good bunch of professionals. We try to protect everybody in Philadelphia, and they have got a tough job to do. It's a sad thing this particular incident occurred.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VALENCIA: Now both McKnight and Robinson have been suspended from the department for 30 days with the intent for dismissal. They were in jail briefly and posted bond so they are out awaiting their trial.

We did get in touch with the two attorneys and I want to read Kevin Robinson's attorney's statement to CNN. He said, "Robinson was a well-respected and dedicated member of the Philadelphia Police Department for the past seven years. He looks forward to clearing his name and getting back to protecting and serving the citizens of Philadelphia."

Sean McKnight's attorney, McKnight is a good cop who risks his life every day when suspects flee. They create risks for themselves, for the public and for the officers who bravely pursue them. We look forward to the trial. Both of these officers, Fredricka, standing by their actions saying they want their day in court.

WHITFIELD: Even with that videotape which is hard to watch.

VALENCIA: It is. And also, when you look at that police report, they wrote in there that they approached this suspect, Rivera, with their lights on. And it's clear in that video, you saw at home or wherever you're watching, those lights were not on the car. They actually knocked him over with the car showing that tape. And if not for his girlfriend, Rivera --

WHITFIELD: She went door to door in that area looking for anyone who had surveillance video, and here it is.

VALENCIA: Caught on tape.

WHITFIELD: Nick Valencia, thank you so much.

VALENCIA: Thanks. WHITFIELD: All right, exactly what happened on Brian Williams' helicopter convoy in Iraq 12 years ago? NBC is now investigating after Williams recanted his war stories.

And CNN has been doing our own digging and we'll tell you what we found, straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Hello again. Welcome back to the NEWSROOM. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. NBC News says they are launching an internal investigation into the claims Brian Williams made about being in a helicopter that was shot by an RPG in Iraq back in 2003.

The anchor's story started to come under question this week, particularly, when military veterans disputed his story. In a memo to staff, NBC News President Deborah Turner says, quote, "As you would expect, we have a team dedicated to gathering the facts to help us make sense of all that has transpired. We're working on what the best next steps are."

CNN's senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter, takes a look at the latest fallout.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Brian Williams' apology for exaggerating some of his Iraq war reporting is not silencing the story. Despite a separate apology to NBC employees, the conversation is only getting louder.

Ten years ago, Tom Brokaw seated the big cheer in "NBC Nightly News" to Brian Williams. Now Brokaw is denying reports he wants Williams out, saying in this statement, "I have neither demanded nor suggested Brian be fired. His future is up to Brian and NBC News executives."

Those are hardly warm and fuzzy words for his colleague. A statement from Brokaw's one-time rival, CBS' Dan Rather, is more supportive. Quote, "I don't know the particulars about that day in Iraq. I do know Brian. Brian is an honest, decent man, excellent reporter and anchor and a brave one."

Of course, Dan Rather has had his own controversies when it comes to truthful reporting. But the discussion about Williams' future is not limited to legends of the evening news. On social media, the #brianwilliamsmisremembers is exploding, placing him at historical events. The controversy growing since his mea culpa on Wednesday night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I made a mistake in recalling the events of 12 years ago.

STELTER: And he's not the only one having trouble with the fine details. Rich Krell, the pilot who said he was flying William's helicopter in Iraq now admits he's questioning his own memory. Yesterday he told CNN, Williams' Chinook helicopter came under small arms fire.

Now he's not so sure. Several others say he was piloting a different helicopter in the area. Krell says his nightmares are coming back and just wants to forget. Perhaps the only one who can clear up the confusion is Brian Williams himself.

Brian Stelter, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right, let's continue the conversation with Robert Thompson. He is the director of the Center for Media Studies at Syracuse University. Good to see you.

ROBERT THOMPSON, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR MEDIA STUDIES, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: Thanks, good to see you.

WHITFIELD: All right. So NBC says it's investigating a lead investigation, looking at the report. What Williams has said, whether it be on Letterman, either during a CNBC conversation, even a documentary. But is this probe also going to be looking at all those who may have known about his story, how he's been telling the story, whether it be in -- whether it was inaccurate or not?

Whether there was some real corroboration by some of the producers that he was working with? You know -- are there managers at NBC, perhaps even prior to the current president, Turness?

THOMPSON: Yes, one would hope. If it's a decent investigation, it's going to go after the old who knew what, and when did they know it kind of thing. I mean, this has been a sense -- the way this began to develop, that it almost looked more like one of those stories that just started getting more and more detail and became more and more of a tall tale.

Certainly, we have done that all of the time. But then again, we're not the head of a major news operation. So it will be interesting to see what that investigation -- I have to say, though, however that investigation turns out, I think NBC is going to have a really hard time not responding in a pretty powerful way.

If Brian Williams is still in that seat next year at this time, I think NBC is going to have some explaining to do.

WHITFIELD: Really? You're saying regardless of what the outcome of the investigation is, just simply because of the flurry of activity this week in particular?

THOMPSON: Well, I think -- and there are two things NBC is thinking about. Number one, Brian Williams has for some time been the number one anchor on network television. And he gets 9 million to 10 million viewers. I know people say the evening news is a dinosaur, but 9 million to 10 million viewers is not chopped liver.

That's making a lot of money for NBC especially now in this time where the "Today" show is no longer in first place. They've got other issues. So part of them is loath to give up this golden goose that Brian Williams is.

On the other hand, if they decide to simply let this slide with the chastisement or whatever, they have essentially said that all that branding that journalism is all about, of being the one you can trust and, you know, Cronkite, the most trusted man in America, that those standards are not as strong as they thought they were going to be.

And his audience could, in fact, begin to erode after this. So there's a lot of calculus they've got to take into account here, and whatever we find out the investigation, it's clear that the story Brian Williams once told is not the same as the truth, because Brian Williams has already apologized for that.

WHITFIELD: Yes, he did. And, you know, it's an issue of credibility, as you put it, trust. And especially at a time when, you know, we're seeing some pretty incredible promos celebrating his ten years at the helm as lead anchor.

What timing for this to be coming to a head like this, just, you know, with this campaign, especially being stepped up, celebrating his trust, his credibility, his story-telling over a ten-year period, as the leader of "NBC Nightly News."

THOMPSON: Yes, that -- it's very uncomfortable to watch all of that and the word "trust" keeps coming up. And I have to say, okay, he apologizes Wednesday, but comes back Thursday and Friday and just does the news broadcast as though nothing had happened.

And it was very uncomfortable to watch that. It was almost as though -- it was certainly a cloud hanging over those things. And I'm kind of surprised he didn't suddenly take a brief vacation or something. But we'll see what happens.

WHITFIELD: Yes, we'll see what happens. You know, it is uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for viewers and a lot of us who know and have worked with him. I worked with him when he was at MSNBC. And I, of course, only think of him as a very, you know, wonderful, kind and highly respected journalist.

And when something like this happens, I think it makes so many of us cringe, particularly those of us who have had the opportunity to work with him. And we're hoping for the best kind of outcome here. Robert Thompson, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

THOMPSON: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: We're going to shift gears quite a bit because we're talking about vaccinating your children. If you decide not to vaccinate your child, are you legally liable if your child or a playmate becomes sick, or worse? Our legal guys are next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: The measles outbreak continues to spread. Two new states, Nevada and Delaware, have confirmed cases of the highly contagious virus. Based on CNN's count since the year began, there have been at least 110 cases reported in these states.

Even with this outbreak, we're hearing from many parents who don't want to vaccinate their children for religious or philosophical reasons. That decision can impact the health of their child and the children around them. Are these parents legally liable? And what does the law say?

Let's bring in our legal guys, Avery Friedman, a civil rights attorney and law professor in Cleveland, good to see you, and Richard Herman, a New York criminal defense attorney and law professor, joining us from Las Vegas. Good to see you as well.

All right, Gentlemen, Richard, you first. If I, a parent, say I don't want my child to be vaccinated for reasons other than medical, my child gets the measles and consequently spreads to someone else, can I be legally held liable for endangering the life of someone else?

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The answer -- the quick answer that, Fred, is maybe. It's not black and white. It's not open and shut. Anybody can purchase, bring litigation. There are no criminal laws against that. The states are empowered to regulate whether or not children have to be inoculated. It's a state power, not a federal power.

And the states in their legislation have certain exemptions and some are religious exemptions, et cetera. If you fall into one of those exemptions and you legitimately that's the key, you legitimately fall into an exception, because that's where litigation comes out, and then perhaps you are protected.

But think be real, Fred. These people have to be real. If you don't want to inoculate your children, you probably shouldn't have those children. You're putting other people at risk. It's outrageous not to protect your children and other children around you. And just because you get an inoculation for polio or measles doesn't mean you're 100 percent protected.

People who get it still get the disease if they're around people who have it. And if you get two doses, people still get it. So common sense and science in 2015 dictate get your kids inoculated or keep them home. End of story.

WHITFIELD: And Avery, I saw you in agreement for the most part until --

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, I was until -- until we -- I guess discovered a new dimension of birth control. Not having children, if you --

HERMAN: It's not birth control.

FRIEDMAN: You have birth control -- taking care of the children. That's what it's about. All right, let's dial it down. The reality is that most states provide for an exemption, either religious or conscience. That actually is the problem area because we have to recognize the public health reality. We have to recognize the severity of consequences and we have to recognize the reality of mortality. Basically, all of science says, Fredricka, that inoculations are critical and people like Donald Trump and Jenny McCarthy, are entitled to their opinion, not facts.

That's part of the misinformation disseminated. There is no connection between autism and issues like that, and inoculations. That is fantasy. It is myth and science backs that up.

And I want to say that there were three years of hearings in Congress chaired by Dan Burton, a former congressman from Indiana, who said there was -- that the evidence didn't support that there wasn't a connection. That was crazy. Bottom line, inoculations have to support public health.

WHITFIELD: OK, so we won't win the argument on that right now. But then I do wonder if, you know, cases of negligence, if legal cases of negligence can be made when a parent opts not to get their child vaccinated, they suffer brain damage from measles or they die.

And then we're not talking about an exemption for medical reasons, because we just profiled a young child who had leukemia whose immune system wasn't strong enough for that child to have measles.

But when you talk about I guess the legal recourse, are parents looking at possible negligence charges against them if their child or someone else's child, you know, is endangered?

HERMAN: Yes, I would say yes to that, Fred. I would say yes to that. And the states have the overriding power for the general welfare of their children. The state's power over the children is greater than a parent and if the states --

FRIEDMAN: I don't know about that.

HERMAN: It's true. That's law.

FRIEDMAN: Wait a minute, hold on.

HERMAN: That's 2015, OK?

FRIEDMAN: Hold on.

HERMAN: You can make agreements, spouses can make agreements and the judges can say no, this is in the best interest of the children.

(CROSSTALK)

FRIEDMAN: Let's answer Fredricka's question. There is --

HERMAN: Religious and philosophical --

FRIEDMAN: -- is there negligence.

WHITFIELD: All right, hold on, Richard, Avery, real quick.

FRIEDMAN: No reported case. Unfortunately, no reported case.

WHITFIELD: All right.

HERMAN: So what's the viability -- are you really -- are you bound to your religion? Are you a practicing person? Is it is meaningful to you? And even if it is, Fred, think about the reality of the situation. And the --

FRIEDMAN: They always make a balance.

HERMAN: Not inoculating a child. What basic protection can you give a child -- and politically, it's ridiculous.

FRIEDMAN: And the state legislatures will never, never go along with that logic. I agree with it. It is politically impossible. It will never happen in this country, never.

HERMAN: New York State says get your kids shots.

WHITFIELD: This is the kind of argument that is taking place in many doctors' offices involving parents and pediatricians, et cetera. But because it is so heated, because so many people see it in different ways, do you see that it would serve this nation well that there would be a national standard?

HERMAN: Yes.

WHITFIELD: Of course, they would have to remain exemptions.

HERMAN: Fred, it's not -- how could you --

FRIEDMAN: It's not realistic.

HERMAN: How can you intellectually -- see it different?

WHITFIELD: Finish up on that, Avery, real quick.

FRIEDMAN: It is not politically realistic. I agree with the science. By the way, one case out of New York took away a 3-year-old from a dad who failed to have her vaccinated by measles.

HERMAN: Beautiful.

FRIEDMAN: That is the only reported case I've been able to find. No national standard, no state standard.

HERMAN: In 2015, Fred, how can you intellectually decide not give your child --

FRIEDMAN: It's not intellectual. It's political, Richard. It's political.

HERMAN: If you care and love your children, how can you not want for their best interests?

FRIEDMAN: Well, that's -- that disregards the religious argument. HERMAN: The religious argument is garbage.

FRIEDMAN: Garbage? OK.

WHITFIELD: We will leave it right there. This underscores the ongoing debate that really sweeps this nation, just as the cases of measles also sweep through this nation. All right, thank you so much, Richard, Avery. Always appreciate you. Thanks so much and we'll be right back.

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WHITFIELD: All right, checking our top stories, Whitney Houston's daughter remains in the hospital today a week after she was found unresponsive in her home. A source to Bobbi Kristina Brown's case tells us Roswell Police are focusing their investigation on her boyfriend, Nick Gordon.

And in Washington State, dozens of homes have been engulfed by floodwaters, the worst of it hitting the town of Britton, where a nearby river burst its banks. Water rescue crews are bringing their boats door to door, and helping people from stranded cars.

And Serena Williams is ending her 14-year boycott of the Indian Wells Tournament. She'll be playing now in that tournament next month. Years ago, Williams and her sister, Venus, suffered racist abuse, they say, at the California Resort Tennis Tournament, and the world's number one female player just off her Australia Open win says she is ending her strike in the spirit of forgiveness.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): With a straight sets win over Maria Sharapova last Saturday, Serena Williams claimed her sixth Australian Open title. Moving past Everett and Navratilova, and the sole possession of second place on the Korea grandslam list.

SERENA WILLIAMS, PROFESSIONAL TENNIS PLAYER: I think it makes it really special because this number 19 for me. So passing people like Martina Navaratilova and Chris Everett who has been great for me. I really am enjoying my time. I'm at a point in my career where I don't have to win anymore and every win is like a super extra bonus and every win just is a more awesome than the last.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): At 33 years old, Williams shows no signs of slowing down and is just three grand slam wins shy of tying Steffi Graf, who holds the record at 22.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right, we have so much more straight ahead in the NEWSROOM and it all starts right after this.

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